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[Monotype] Monotype General Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Side Metagames' started by Roku, Nov 3, 2013.

  1. Roku

    Roku sup nerds

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    This thread is for discussing all things in ORAS Monotype. Post sets you have found interesting, bring up potential suspects, and other discussion. Enjoy.

    Monotype Ban List
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 13, 2016
  2. .Rawr!

    .Rawr! c(°3°)כ

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    First post yay! Well about monotype a lot of things have changed:

    - Poison monos sucks a bit less with Megagengar shadow tag (replacing Chandy), Speed boost/Sword Dance Scolipede and Specs Dragalge. I fought 2 monopoisons, which one 1 was good build, with QuiverPass Moth to Megagengar, good there.

    - Fire monos are better too, with priority Talonflame, both formes of Blaziken (probably gonna be banned idk) and specially the 2 MegaCharizards (drought 1 and dragon 1), both are okish. (btw both Charizard and Moltres learn defog, although not ideal like hazard removers)

    - I'm testing Fairy mono a bit, it seems ok too. Gonna post more x testing.
     
  3. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I was wondering if we could maybe revise the restrictions of Mono Dragon. They were bought it to stop people just spamming Outrage/Draco Meteor all the time, and now that the Fairies have arrived and they're completely immune to it, you simply can't do that anymore. There's a whole new MonoFairy, not to mention that Water, Steel, Flying, Psychic, Electric, Grass, Rock and Normal now have Fairy types (true some of them suck) you still can't just click Outrage with reckless abandon. Not to mention Draco Meteor got nerfed too.

    I'd still like to see Genesect banned though. If anything it's even better now since it has a reason to run its Steel STAB.
     
  4. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    The Dragon restrictions were completely removed. A new gen means that (aside from the auto-Ubers), everything is going to be tested again.

    Genesect having a reason to run a Steel STAB doesn't actually make it better. It means it has a harder time choosing four moves to go with. Also, now there are Pokemon that both resist Bug and are not weak to the "best" coverage moves the Genesect is going to be using. It's way too early to be calling broken on something as borderline as Genesect.
     
  5. Raducan

    Raducan Well-Known Member

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    I think the addition of Klefki and Aegislash to Mono-Steel will make it a lot better. Klefki has Prankster Spikes and Thunder Wave, which is pretty awesome. Aegislash in my opinion, is one of the bigger threats out there right now, so I think it will change the Mono Metagame quite a bit. However, Mono-Steel did kind of get nerfed as it now no longer resists Dark and Ghost, so we'll see how that plays out.
     
  6. Roku

    Roku sup nerds

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    Having played the tier for a little while now, I thought I'd give my thoughts on each type.

    Water- An incredibly strong type at the moment, with both Manaphy and Drizzle allowed, making Pokemon like Kingdra extremely potent sweepers. Greninja could potentially be a strong team member, otherise no real notable additions were made.

    Fire- Made stronger this gen with the addition of Talonflame, pretty much the best revengekiller in the game, though it maintains a crippling SR weakness, as any defog users with a Fire type are 4x weak to rock. Blaziken stands out as being incredibly strong on Fire, definitely worth a look for a suspect, in my opinion. It also has two usable Drought users in Mega Charizard Y and Ninetales, boosting STAB and reducing the damage from Water attacks.

    Grass- Immunity to powder moves, including spore, add a pretty significant buff to Grass, along with some great typing in Trevenant and Gourgeist, though it misses out on Contrary Serperior with the change to disallow unreleased abilities. Overall Grass is probably going to stay a weaker, overlooked type this gen.

    Ice- It gets a new Snow Warning user in Aurorus, which helps to keep turns of hail up despite only lasting 5-8 turns this gen. Turns out it's not released, oops! Avalugg's massive physical bulk and access to recover will also help, tanking Fighting hits and shrugging off the damage.

    Rock- It gets a couple new fossils and Barbaracle, otherwise nothing has changed for Rock.

    Ground- Zygarde makes a nice addition to the pool of Ground Pokemon, with a Dragon Dance or Coil set having the capability to rip through teams. Other than Zygarde though, nothing much is new for Ground, except for Sand Stream being allowed at the moment.

    Ghost- Ghost gained an offensive buff against Steels, a crazy strong Pokemon in Mega Gengar, one of strongest new gen Pokemon in Aegislash, and an immunity to trapping moves and abilities. Overall, Ghost got a huge increase in power, and is probably the type to watch out for at the moment.

    Steel- Big changes to Steel in XY, with 2 resistances being removed and an offensive buff given to Steel type moves with the introduction of Fairies. Overall, Steel remains an excellent defensive typing, and gains a few great Pokemon in Aegislash, Mega Mawile, Mega Lucario and Mega Scizor, though the mega limit is a hindrance there somewhat. Genesect being freed is also a huge help to Steel, allowing it to keep momentum through the match and having strong coverage overall.

    Fairy- Fairly underwhelming at the moment, I haven't seen too much success out of any mono Fairy team. Overall it seems that Mawile, Azumarill, Togekiss, Klefki, and possibly Sylveon or Florges are the only Fairies worth using, there simply isn't enough variety with the new type.

    Dragon- Incredibly strong with all the unbans for the start, even with Fairies being immune. Dragons tend to have plenty of coverage moves that can hit Fairy types neutrally and eliminate their biggest new nemesis.

    Fighting- Not many new additions this gen, though the return of Blaziken, not to mention the fact that it got a mega, and the addition of Mega Lucario make it a very potent threat once again. Pangoro or Chesnaught could possibly be used but I haven't seen anything impressive out of them yet.

    Psychic- Another very potent threat carries over from Gen 5, even moreso with Deoxys-N being free for the moment, though I can't see that lasting. It loses some defensive power with Jirachi losing its neutrality to Dark and Ghost, making it harder to handle those types, which is a huge loss with Ghost's overall strength increase.

    Dark- I haven't yet seen one in action, though it seems to me like what was a mediocre type will stay a mediocre type despite Greninja's addition to the tier and an offensive buff against Steel. A new defensive weakness in Fairy hurts it a lot as well.

    Bug- Genesect being free does wonders for Bug, and a defog Scizor set could remove the need for a Forretress, allowing for more offensive power, giving Bug more options. Bug's megas seem decidedly underwhelming, not adding much to the type.

    Flying- Defog's buff for this generation will be huge on Flying teams, as Pokemon like Skarmory and Gliscor are neutral to Rock and can get the hazards out of the way. It also gains Talonflame for effective revengekilling, and Gyarados can go mega for an Ice resist on a more defensive spread.

    Electric- With Heliolisk and Mega Manectric or Ampharos, Electric doesn't get a whole lot of new toys, however its new immunity to paralysis will definitely be a strong asset. It loses Lightningrod Zapdos, however, who was always a staple on Mono Electric teams.

    Normal- Definite boost for Normal, getting Heliolisk and Pyroar for some elemental coverage, as well as a powerhouse in Mega Kangaskhan, and Diggersby for some more hard hard hits.

    Poison- It gains Dragalge, and Speed Boost on Scolipede, as was mentioned in a post before, as well as an offensive boost against Fairies, potentially making one of the weakest types into at least a viable middling force. Mega Gengar also gives Poison a huge boost, though it will likely be an early suspect, especially with Ghost's extra power.

    Potential suspects that stand out to me: Blaziken, Gengarite, Drizzle, Manaphy, Deoxys-N, maybe Genesect
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2013
  7. Olivine

    Olivine Member

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    Some tests ran:

    Steel: Losing Dark and Ghost resistances isn't a big deal for most mons. It will be slightly irritating, at most.
    Aegislash is the most interesting of the new mons for the tier, expecially considering it will be able to play a big role in Monoghost too.
    Steel also gets a good mega in Lucario, and another in Mawile, where each can patch up holes. Steel will remain atop of the type chain for this gen.

    Bug: GALVANTULA TRAIN. Now, bug is another type that didn't gain much in megas with Mega Scizor and Mega Heracross. The latter loves his scarf too much. There are no new bug type mons in the usable tier. Anyway, Bug gets the chance to shoot sticky web around, making Genesect more dangerous.

    Dark: I don't feel like Dark gained much from this generation. Its now even harder to beat for monopsychic, as Metagross can't stop Sucker punch spamming anymore.
    Out of the new mons, Greninja feels like the one that can get the most love, expecially as Protean makes it play an important part. The megas are not so hot. Still a meh type.

    Ghost: Oh boy Mega Gengar! Normal type isn't much common, and partially normal mons for other types are just uncommon. Also, Aegislash and Trevenant/Gourgeist are good additions. And that Steel resistance is no more. Chandelure losing Shadow Tag stops the dual core Gengar/Chandelure from being my personal nightmare, but Infiltrator getting past subs is something not to ignore. Oh, how strong can Ghost get this time.

    Fighting: A lot of megas, but, besides Blaziken, facing Mono-Fighting feels unchanged from last gen. I don't find much to say about this, nothing noteworthy comes to mind.

    Psychic: There it is, Metagross and Jirachi can't stop Sucker Punch as they did before. Malamar doesn't make the cut as Dark neutrality, and Mr. Mime doesn't look like a threat. So, besides, the old Gallade, the Dark neutralities are now the possible megas, Gardevoir and Medicham. Mega Alakazam exists, but it felt meh to me. Meloetta is now a key mon, as it is immune to ghost, covering a hole that only Malamar and Girafarig (yes, girafarig still exists) could try to fill (ineffectively.)

    Water: Drizzle. Manaphy. OH GOD. The megas aren't that good, but Manaphy and Drizzle alone are enough to endanger the metagame's life. Greninja is cool.

    Fire: It's good, and Blaziken helps it in being good. It now gets Talonflame. Fire Blast has been nurfd, and this is quite a hit. The Mega Charizards are quite usable, I don't feel like Mega Houndoom cuts it, and Mega Blaziken isn't needed when you can use Blaziken. It's already strong enough.

    Normal: It got Diggersby and Mega Khan. And lost Togekiss. It will be good, even if it would have loved getting Talonflame.

    Flying: All hail the new king. Defog makes hazards removal much easier, and Mega Gyarados offers a desirable Ice resistance. Talonflame can harm a lot of things, and it still gets monsters like Skarmory, Thundurus, Dragonite and Landorus.

    Poison: I have no idea about it. Mega Gengar is good, and Speed Boost Scolipede is too. I haven't seen it around enough to say if it will be strong enough.

    Ground: It got literally two new mons (they are good at least), and as far as I remember, almost no megas, with Garchomp being the only one. It didn't gain much, it won't become more popular, unless Hippowdon+Excadrill actually manages to work.

    Fairy: It lacks enough good mons to be really interesting, but it will be another mid-tier decent mono with Ground.

    Electric: Hardly new mons, with only helioptile, still no spinner and (as far as I remember) only one Stealth Rock setter in STUNFISK. The only thing it got going for itself is that Galvantula gets sticky web. Mega Manectric feels kind of meh, Mega Ampharos will be the go-to electric mega.

    Dragon: It's... strong. Fairies can't do anything to stop it, unless they are on a mono-fairy. All dragons get a wide variety of move, and with Noivern, Goodra and Zygarde, more options. Mega Garchomp is the only usable mega, as Ampharos and Charizard can't live there.

    Ice: How bad can it get? Uninteresting new mons, just one mega in Abomasnow, which loses what made mono-ice good last gen, permanent weather. It's hard to keep it alive, and if it dies, it will likely harm Stallrein, which I found to be one of the best mons in mono-ice last gen. The nerf to Ice Beam and Blizzard makes it again less powerful.

    Grass: Spore and Sleep Powder now can't harm Grass types, which is a blessing and a curse. The megas are mediocre at best, mega Venusaur would love starting already Mega'd. Trevenant and Gourgeist aren't enough to lift this from the Monotype hell.

    Rock: No more perma sand. This kills the rock.
     
  8. Poli

    Poli Member

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    Anyway a lot of changes Imo but they are not all that good!!

    Dark and Ghost got good tricks, now STABs are even more spammable etc...
    Chandelure "lost" its Shadow Tag (Gengar stole it!!), I'm having fun with Infiltrator but it's not as good as Shadow Tag was
    Gourgeist and Trevenant have a nice typing and can support the team healing it a bit with LSeed etc... Aegislash (and Doublade <- it's really underrated Imo) is obv good with its typing but I don't think it helps Ghost as it helps Steel, Steel got a spinblocker and even if Defog exists now SR are still viable
    What Dark got is a Defogger (it has no spinner) and Greninja (STAB everything and good Spd go!) 3 megas too

    Psy is losing its popularity (in gen 5 all the teams were psy >.>, k not all them but if you played gen 5 monotype you know what I mean), only poke neutral/immune to Ghost is Meloetta, while only Gallade and Medicham are neutral to Dark.

    Grass is still meh Imo, no good pokes this gen bar maybe Mega Saur etc... also Talonflame owns this thing!!!

    Electric is nice as it was past gen but now all its pokes can absorb a Twave, no new pokes bar Heliolisk and Mega Manectric (Volt Switch + Intimidate is cool!!)

    Bug got Genesect again -.-", 3 megas (Scizor, Heracross and Pinsir) and Sticky Web but unless it runs Shedinja Sticky Web is easily removed. Also Sticky Webbers are meh (Ariados lol, Galvantula okay can work, Masquerain has Intimidate so could be used and Shuckle is still gimmicky as it was past gen) Talonflame owns this thing!!!

    I've seen a lot of Fairy teams, they look all the same but I see the reasons behind their choices (Mawile and Azumarill hit really hard, Florges is decent cleric, Togekiss does the same things it did past gen but now can take dragons (Garchomp anyone?))

    Dragon lost its limit so now you basically face Dnite, Chomp, Latios, Kyurem, Mence and another random one (Dragalge is cool and can kill all Fairies not named Mawile or Klefki) in the same team (k we got Fairy but...) Annoying to face and all as you can imagine, now Dragon can remove the SR from the field, it has 1 Mega but meh....

    Water Drizzle+SS=gg

    Ground Hippow+Drill, Zygarde and Diggersby underrated type Imo still have to see one Mega Chomp too but it's opinable

    Rock has 3 viable Megas and believe it or not they are all good (I find Mega Aggron the best of these 3: pure Steel+Filter+huge (physical) bulk), new weather mechanics hurt it though

    Fighting 3 Megas but probably Lucario is the best as it can kill Fairies with its STAB (Cobalion too but lol) Talonflame is a pain for this OHKOing or 2HKOing all its pokes (I've seen Terra and Cobalion taking 1 BB, also Lucario can hurt it with Espeed)

    Poison got Mega Gengar, Scolipede (higher Atk this gen and Speed Boost), Dragalge and Crobat got buffed with Infiltrator so Golbat!!

    Normal has a Mega and it's good but I can't think at any other tool it got this gen (Diggersby maybe), even Smeargle got nerfed (Spore isn't that good anymore)

    Flying has 2 viable Defoggers taking neutral from rocks so it's all just better, Talonflame isn't a great add since Flying never had problems with Bug, Fight or Grass, Mega Gyarados is worth a mention here because it takes 1/2 from Ice

    EDIT: Nobody mentioned Hawlucha :( Fighting Flying is decent coverage (only resisted by Rotom, Flying Electric pokes, Aegislash and Dedenne I think), it's fast and has viable boosting moves

    Finally my fav type Fire Talonflame really helps vs Fight and Charizard X takes neutral from Water, it can also run Tales or Char Y for weather but Idk I doubt I'll try it since it seems broken, Blaziken is allowed but Chandelure lost its capability of killing Heatran early in the game
    Can't really wait for Volcanion!!!

    EDIT: I forgot saying how hard Ice sucks now, it has a Mega but no perma weather hurts, no good pokes (Avalugg? lol) and Ice is still a bad typing
    Having 2 inducers doesn't really help since they are both meh
    Freeze Dry is nice though and I think Articuno learns Defog (it has to come in anyway)
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2013
  9. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Ice is actually pretty good still, it just doesn't benefit from the all encompassing ice body as much and needs a much more offensive approach. So far Hail hasn't been that bad with Icy Rock Abomasnow which generally has the staying power throughout the match if one doesn't just sack it in the first three turns like last gen. Ice just requires a little more thought and double switching to play now. Generally Abomasnow benefits from the recovery of Giga Drain and Leech Seed when running Icy Rock due to the lack of Leftovers. Snow Cloak has also been unbanned which is a huge boon for Monoice with Mamoswine and Froslass around. It's a little bit harder to keep rocks off the field, but Cloyster can still manage to get the job done. Avalugg is just dead weight when I personally tried it. I'd say don't use it.
     
  10. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    I am going to agree with what Roku said, in regard to ghost type gaining quite a bit of power thanks to the steel nerf and gengarnite addition.

    Ultimately, a ghost type with those potent stats, shadow tag, and the movepool that Gengar sports is pretty challenging to defeat. Ghost is great, but it still isn't the most amazing and overpowering type ever (probably top three, currently - alongside psychic, dragon. Not sure how fighting is this gen, nor bug.) I could see a potential Mega Gengar suspect (as it has already been banned in standard, a monotype ban wouldn't shock me, even this early.)

    In addition, Deoxys-N should probably get looked at. It has the 150/150/150 offensive stats, an amazing movepool on every side of the spectrum, and plenty of fine and versatile psychic type partners.

    Basically, agreeing with multiple above users who have similar opinions to mine.
     
  11. .Rawr!

    .Rawr! c(°3°)כ

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    I have done a bit of laddering with a monofairy team (btw i don't understand all this fairy hate, yeah the teams are almost the same, but is a pretty strong type). Anyways, at the moment i think the 3 top types in the tier are Dragon, Steel and Ghost.

    - Dragon: even with the fairy nerf, they have amazing power, things like dragon dancers, banded dnite or sub kyurem-b (omg!!!) just smash things, no limit on team helps too.

    - Ghost: everyone already said it all, very potent thread with megagar, steel nerf, etc

    - Steel: it was already a top threat in gen5, gen6 comes with the amazing Aegislash, a godsend again fighting monotypes, also klefki like nice supporter and buff on steel attack again fairies.


    Possible bans: megagar, blaziken (both formes), genesect, reintroduction of dragon restriction (but a list of 3 maybe)
     
  12. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    By unanimous decision by the side tiers leaders, a dragon restriction will never happen again. If members of the type are broken, they will be banned. There was and is honestly no need for a type restriction.
     
  13. VarunRi

    VarunRi Member

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    I really like the variety Gen 6 has brought up. I've been using a Steel team, and although it has been successful, it still needs improvement (it was prepared in haste and without much thought). Genesect and Heatran are still are good as ever, although Scarfsect is no longer the gamebreaker it was, and it suffers from a slight 4MSS since Flash Cannon is a viable option now. Aegislash is brilliant, but the 252HP/252Def set falls short of some KOs even after a +2, but then maybe I need to try a more offensive EV spread. Bisharp is really good with Knock Off + Sucker Punch and Defiant, although I haven't seen a lot of Sticky Webs even in Bug-monos, but it's Speed is still an issue. I'm using Iron Head and Brick Break along with it, so maybe I'd replace the latter with Substitute. Mega Aggron is a huge surprise with Rock Polish, and with EdgeQuake and Iron Head having amazing coverage as well as its humongous bulk, and nets kills. Not sure though if Mega Mawile's a better option for the Mega slot. And the last, Cobalion, is pretty underwhelming, especially with all the Sableye Will-O-Wisp'ing around. I've been using it for the Close Combat though, and as always, a +2 (Swords Dance) Close Combat hits hard, although leaving it without its natural bulk.
     
  14. Fiery Espeon

    Fiery Espeon The fire never bothered me anyway ~

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    Um Steel and Fairy are overpowering but GHost definitley is out of control. Aegislash is both a good addition to Ghost and Steel while Mega Mawile is pretty powerful in Monosteel. The biggest problem is Gengarite. Also, Wouldnt Yveltal be allowed in Monotype because of its absymal speed compared to OU and Dark is pretty much neverused. They are the "underdogs".
     
  15. Roku

    Roku sup nerds

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    I have seen better teams made with Fairies than I have indicated in my previous posts, but I still would not call it overpowering in the slightest. THe game with monofairy teams is basically "How many mons can I cripple with Klefki so that the rest of the team can do stuff". Steel and Ghost are definitely powerful, though Aegi and Mawilite aren't worth a suspect yet in my opinion. Gengarite is a possibility, as Mega Gengar can definitely crush big chunks of monotype. With regards to Yveltal, 99 base speed is not abysmal at all, it has an incredibly strong recovery move in Oblivion Wing, and 126/95/98 defenses mean it doesn't have to be outspeeding you all the time, it can take hits pretty damn well. So I'd say a Yveltal test isn't looking likely, though when things settle down it might be worth a try. Don't get your hopes up though.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
  16. Aquadude

    Aquadude Member

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    Out of being a mono-electric player I will say 1 thing I'm waiting to get 2 major threats back Eelektross, and Eelektrik. steel Is easier for me to play now that it has a real lead I know i'm not a conventional monotype player but I'm also all for suspecting drizzle I have some untested teams mono dark is quirky mono bug remains unchanged and mono normal is now a real threat
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2013
  17. .Rawr!

    .Rawr! c(°3°)כ

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    I disagree about klefki in monofairy, I tested a lot with a monofairy team (i peaked 3 on ranking yay) and it can do well even without klefki (personally i find klefki a dead weight to the team, only stacking spikes and relying on paraswag). Anyways, i agree monofairy isn't op, monosteel is still its bane, having banded scizor, agiligross and scarfrachi is a a pain.

    Pd: don't bring down yveltal, dark is ok like it is now.
     
  18. Olivine

    Olivine Member

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    A new possible suspect: Excadrill

    Well, I've been testing Sand Rush Excadrill with Hippowdon support.
    If it isn't countered properly, its fury will know no limits, should rather hide while you can.

    Hippowdon is bulky, and can definitely manage to give Excadrill two sweep attempts.

    But why is Excadrill broken and it's not sand?
    Using monoground, I've seen sand is not that much of a big deal, it may annoy a poke or two, but nothing spectacular. The only broken abuser of it is Excadrill, there is no reason to ban Sand Stream or Hippowdon from Monotype like last gen.

    What are the answers to Excadrill?

    1)Politoed/Ninetales/Abomasnow/CharizardY. All of these except Politoed are hit supereffectively by one of three moves ran by excadrill commonly (EQ, Rock Slide, Iron Head).
    Politoed still takes a lot upon switching in:
    252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 208-246 (54.16 - 64.06%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, keep in mind this is maxdef politoed, so upon switching in, Excadrill can just hit it again.
    Ninetales just dies to EQ, Abomasnow dies to Iron Head, not as much as Ninetles, but
    252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Abomasnow: 330-393 (85.93 - 102.34%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO and
    252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Abomasnow: 268-320 (69.79 - 83.33%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
    MegaZard Y can switch in on an Earthquake well, is faster and can revenge kill. God forbid being predicted, tho, or not being already megaevolved.
    We can say other perma-weather setters don't work

    2) Skarmory. It works,but that's not much to say. But it's like saying Chansey can take on a Special Attacker.

    3) Azumarill. Possibly.
    (252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 289-341 (71.53 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
    It works "great" in revenging. Consider it has chances to die just by switching in and this
    252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 360-426 (99.72 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    is really just the minimum amount needed to stop the mole.

    4) Slowbro.
    (252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 164-192 (41.62 - 48.73%)) It's not spectacularly obliterated, but it has to be remember that Excadrill also gets Swords Dance, and Slowbro definitely won't enjoy a SD Earthquake to the face.

    There are a bunch more of possible Excadrill counters, Gliscor, Landorus-T, Intimidate Mence/Gyarados for which Excadrill can't run HP ice unlike other sweepers. Sableye can't take an unboosted EQ, so it has to come in after a kill to revenge-burn (worst idea ever).

    Discuss.
     
  19. Poli

    Poli Member

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    Excadrill is Ground Steel and while I may agree about how broken it is in the sand Idk if this is worth a ban when it just fits Steel (also manual Sand isn't that bad compared to Hippo's support this gen, Hippo is a great poke though that does a lot more than just setting the Sand but...)

    My opionion about Drill is probably just bad tho mostly because I'm using Fire and Sand is obv a pain, other types may have an answer to it but what does resist Ground? Grass (bad overall Imo), Bug (the best Bug pokes are neutral to Ground or Flying and Excadrill learns Rock Slide), Flying (has an obv advantage over Ground)

    EDIT: Fairy is so strong... Azumaril+Mawile wrecks so much, Azumarill can use BDrum with Aqua Jet this gen so even stronger and don't tell me it can never set up because it's pretty bulky and its typing is good too, Mawile has those STABs, SD and even a strong (but unreliable) priority that does the job pretty well

    Fairy has alot of support pokes too, from Klefki to Clefable to Carbink yes Carbink!! And it can easily provide Cleric support

    It's so sad to fight
     
  20. User Name

    User Name Life is a maze

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    Notes to self:
    If ever I come back, Try--
    Bug: Galvantula (Sticky Web/Thunder/2 coverage), Genesect (Scarf Special), Scizor (Band Standard), Pinsir (Mega), Heracross (who knows, but probably Scarf Standard), Volcarona (Quiver Dance)
    Dragon: Kyurem-W (Scarf), Salamence (Scarf), Garchomp (Band/Swords Dance), Dragonite (DD Lum), Latios (Scarf/Specs), filler (Scarf Hydreigon? Stealth Rock Druddigon? Band Haxorus?)
    Ice: Maybe? It was just really fun for me last gen, dunno how it'll be this gen
    Psychic: Tempted to use Baton Pass w/Espeon (Magic Bounce Calm Mind Wish), Mr. Mime (Soundproof Dark resist Barrier), Mew (oh the 4 moveslot syndrome), Medicham (Mega Acupressure/Bulk Up Dark resist), Girafarig (Wish Ghost resist), receiver/lead/utilitymon (maybe Metagross, because Metagross is a boss)

    I wonder how many of these options will be banned by the time I get back into this game (if ever). Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them were already banned while I wasn't paying attention.
     
  21. Poli

    Poli Member

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    Kyurem-W is already banned
     
  22. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    I've been using a bit of Mono Normal (my team is utter shit) but I'm liking what I'm seeing so far. Mega Kanga is a great addition to Mono Normal and proves to always be a threat. Agility Diggersby is nice when you get it set up, and Boomburst Scrappy Exploud is kinda fun to use. It makes Ghost's a whole lost easier to deal with. There are very few problems I've run into with Mono Normal and that's Fighting, Klefki, and good Ghost players. Outside of that normal does incredibly well against most types. I really like it this gen.

    I don't know if I agree with the no limit on Dragons, but it hasn't been out for a while so I guess we'll see how it turns out. None of them are over powered alone, but I think together they kind of are. We'll see how that turns out though.

    Fairy is the biggest disappointment I think I have ever seen. It has decent pokes alone but on a team together there seems to be a lack of symmetry. Idk if it's just me or not but Fairy doesn't have enough "umph" to make a lasting impact on Monotype. It's not the worst type but it is by no means the best, or even close to it. Maybe I should do a bit more testing, but as of now I think it may be the only type that I just won't use. Mega Mawile is incredible, but hella slow and can't take hits. Azumaril is the next best thing (in my opinion) and it's sort of under whelming. It just doesn't have enough of anything for my liking. And then there is the ever so trolly Klefki. I hate this thing so much. Standard Spikes/Swagger/Foul Play/Thunder Wave on pretty much every single one. It's more trolly than Sableye. I can see Fairy making a stall-based approach with all of it's great walls and good defensive typing, but other than that I don't see much coming from fairy.

    Ghost and Steel got great boosts this gen, despite the latter losing key resistances, which will again push them up to the top of the pack in usage.

    @Olivine, this does seem OP on paper, but I don't know how succesful it is in practice. Excadrill isn't the bulkiest Pokemon and it's also carrying a Life Orb which means even more damage. Switching it in is a whole different subject. I have yet to test this out but it seems fine to me, last gen Smooth Rock + Sand Rush Excadrill was fine in the Meta so idk about this being banned. I'll definitely have to test it out to see how it goes.

    My potential suspects: Deo-N, Gengarite, Limitless Dragon (I know about the vote, but Dragon is still REALLY good. No member alone is OP, but together... oh my).
    The interesting thing about Manaphy, is it Drizzle that makes it so good, or it is that good without Drizzle? Either way, one, or both will probably get suspected in the future. That is just the question that needs to be answered.

    Top Tier Types: Ghost, Steel, Dragon, Psychic, Dark (when people see how good it is against Ghost and Steel). That is what I see being top 5 in usage.

    I still have a lot of testing to do because I haven't played much Monotype this gen, but it's actually looking really nice of right now. A few problems here and there, but Monotype looks good.


    PS: Sorry for this post being soo..... terrible. I hope you guys get what I'm trying to say :\
     
  23. Olivine

    Olivine Member

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    Ban Sand Veil and Snow Cloak, please. They are excessively luck-depending.

    It's a one in five chance to miss, and (expecially versus powerhouses like Mamoswine.) lose your pokemon. For comparison on how terrible this can be, consider using Hydro Pump with Surf's power. To this, add the fact that you're not choosing to use Hydro Pump over Surf, you're forced to. In some matches (e.g. consider you fire type user vs mono-ice again, or an ice-type user vs Garchomp) this may even be the difference between a win and a loss. And a 20% chance to lose independently on how well you played and built your team and the matchup is definitely not worth it. Double Team is banned, and so should be Sand Veil and Snow Cloak.

    It's definitely not overpowered, but it's definitely unhealthy.

    Brightpowder and Quick Claw should go with Sand Veil and Snow Cloak.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2013
  24. Poli

    Poli Member

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    I disagree, why should you ban these when weather doesn't last forever etc...? Now they are exactly as Lax Incense and Bright Powder their price is basically the other ability!!
     
  25. Olivine

    Olivine Member

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    When the other ability is:

    Cursed Body
    Oblivious
    Thick Fat (okay, this may be worth it)
    Rough Skin

    it's not that big of a sacrifice for a 1 in 5 chance to win.
     
  26. Poli

    Poli Member

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    Then Lax Incense should be banned too because you only lose like leftovers or another item, also as I said above too the weather doesn't last forever anymore

    Imo we should allow them (items and abilities) and if you really don't care about what I thought above you should ban both items and abilities

    Just my opionion obv, I'm not tier leader etc...
     
  27. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    I also believe these hax reliant abilities and items should be banned. They are just no fun to play against and lose to for no good reason.

    On the other hand, Crawdaunt gets Aqua Jet. It seems nice on such a slow poke and gets the Adaptability boost so I think it's pretty nice. I'm gonna test it out and see how it goes. Dark is looking really nice.
     
  28. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Nothing is going to be banned for "not being fun" or "lucky". If anything is going to be banned it will be because it is broken. Any repetitions of asking for it to be banned because of the reasons I previously mentioned are going to be infracted.
     
  29. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    What are the criteria for something to be considered broken in Monotype?
    On a side note, Crawdaunt sucks, but I'm going to test mono Ground in combination with Brightpowder+Sand Veil mons (and Exca).
     
  30. Bamarah

    Bamarah "Baton Pass Elite"

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    I believe Mega Kangaskhan needs a suspect, we all know what it can do... so yeah...
     
  31. .Rawr!

    .Rawr! c(°3°)כ

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    Mega Kangaskhan is pretty strong, yeah, but the mon I think is pretty broken right now is Kyurem-B. Even running a monofairy team, that thing is sure to get at least 1 kill, if not 2, because it have very good bulk resisting even Stabbed Moonblasts (wtf...)
    Other detail (although not determinant) is which hazards are not a problem to Kyu-B anymore, like defog with [email protected] is pretty easy now.
    Finally, revenge killing isn't even a thing with him, because it can create very easily 101 HP substitutes, and proceed to sweep even killing the revenge killer.

    So if u are not running something like Scizor, Metagross or the now rare Jirachi in your team (aka steel team for the most part), u are going to have big problems.

    I'm bringing this discussion for what Sulcata said:
    I don't think dragons are broken in the whole, but the only reason is Kyurem-B.
    What do u think guys?


    Edit 1:
    Did some calcs, choice band Bullet Punch Scizor can't even OHKO univested bulk Kyurem-B

    252Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor (+Atk) Bullet Punch vs 0HP/4Def Kyurem Black (Neutral): 81% - 97% (320 - 380 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2014
  32. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    Hazards are still a problem for Kyurem-B. Even though they can now be removed, the Hyper Offensive nature of Monotype makes essentially wasting a turn extremely dangerous, especially for the weakness prone Dragon-types. [email protected] aren't guarenteed to get off a Defog before KyuB has to switch in, nor are they guarenteed to remove hazards permanently since a lot of Stealth Rock users are fairly sturdy. This is also a big issue with Kyurem-B's "bulk", since even though it has extremely good bulk by stats alone, both the typing and the lack of immunity to any form of passive damage really hurts its actual longevity which is much more important this generation since it simply cannot afford to spam Choice Band boosted dragon moves.


    Substitute forces KyuB to sacrifice more of its already limited life span, and without a 4th move (and generally a Life Orb boost), it becomes much easier to check. There is also the whole deal that setting up a sub is much more risky that it sounds. Unless you have something on your team that just cannot do any damage to KyuB (very rare in this metagame), KyuB runs the risk of wasting its limited health if it's predicted or against something that's been decided to be sacced. Alongside that, the new sound moves (and to a much lesser extent Infiltrator) means that even if Kyurem-B gets a free sub up on something, it can still be revenge killed.

    You're also forgetting the multitude of fairies that can switch into Kyurem-B only usable STAB move, can take at least one move from nearly all of the sets, and either pivot out if it's the Choice Band version of Kyurem-B, or simply 2HKO or force the big dragon out. While many of these are shaky or dependent of the set, there is generally at least one or two Pokemon that can do one of those things. Then there is the whole list of mons that can take a non-Choice Band attack and be faster and kill even if they are poor checks or counters.
     
  33. .Rawr!

    .Rawr! c(°3°)כ

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    Using defog on dragons isn't wasting a turn, like it's very important to Multiscale Dragonite too, i think its like removing hazards for bug type, but in a lesser degree. I also don't think dragon types are weakness prone, specially Latias is extremely bulky if invested to use defog again and again and have reliable recovery (what hazard setters lack)
    Anyway the main guy is Kyu-B here, so lets on it:

    I think i already pointed which most fairies fail to threaten Kyu-B. The most usable fairies in the metagame are Azumarill, Togekiss (both are 2HKOed by Fusion Bolt on the switch and are slower), Klefki (sitting duck for the Sub Kyu-B set), mega-Mawile (can do something with intimidate before megaevo but no so much). Anyway most Kyurem-B on monotype run Iron Head which destroy any fairy, so yeah...
    Anyways, I could like to hear the list of mons which can handle Kyurem-B again and again, other than the ones i mentioned (scizor, metagross, jirachi and just remembered ferrothorn with gyroball, yeah other steel)

    Sorry if i sound annoying or something, but i truly think Kyu-B is broken, so ya. :x
     
  34. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Given the recent decision on banning Swagger from the XY OU tier, the tier leaders have unanimously agreed to ban Swagger from Monotype. It essentially has the same effect, if not worse, due to the free turns it provides to eliminate type counters and due to turning the match into a complete and utter coin flip. We firmly believe this is for the best of the metagame. This decision will take effect as soon as owners are notified and tiers are updated.
     
  35. Olivine

    Olivine Member

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    Nidoqueen (F) @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Sheer Force

    EVs: 252 HP / 184 SAtk / 72 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Flamethrower
    - Earth Power
    - Protect

    This set is great, even if the EV spread was made by feel.
    With all the monofires and monosteel running around, Earth Power is a good move to have. The most important thing about this set is that it can cripple Monosteel, and is an overall decent anti-lead for Genesect, being able to scout the move with protect, take an eventual U-turn, and answer on some good prediction with a move that will hit a Steel-type supereffectively. Even if Toxic Spikes becomes a dead move in a monosteel matchup, a non-baloontran Monosteel will have a hard time facing this thing, giving a nice head-start on the most common (and possibly the strongest type). Toxic Spikes is one of the most infuriating moves to face, expecially because not many teams run a poison type mon to absorb them. Besides Mega Gengar in and out, the first mon able to absorb TSpikes is Scolipede, at 4.33% usage, which isn't a small percentage, but it's not that big either. The Killer Queen needs more love.

    It's been 3 weeks since sulcata's post, swagger still hasn't been banned.



    Start of turn 1
    The foe's Klefki used Swagger!
    The attack of the foe's Klefki missed!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 23, 2014
  36. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    I was wondering what people thought about weather in general in Monotype. Last gen they were banned because of the extraordinarily powerful sweepers the tier had between Sand Rush, Sand Veil, Swift Swim, and STAB boosts to fire and water in their respective weathers (as well as the reduction of a weakness in sun).

    For Hail, it was extremely nerfed this gen as the primary strategy was to spam sub and protect with ice body to slowly chip at their health, and now you can only get a maximum of 8 turns (assuming you forgo durability on Abomasnow with lefties) which is not nearly enough to complete the strategy. Blizzard is still a great move, but I wouldn't say it's all that great with its low PP and the lack of a power boost.

    With the drastic effects that happened to a top 3 type last gen, I was expecting Sun, Sand, and Rain to be a little bit less OP, but this doesn't seem to be the case at all. Sun is incredibly powerful still with scarf and band Pokemon such as Entei, Darmanitan, Victini and so on not only immediately threatening the Pokemon they are facing, but usually a good majority of the team. You need much more than a 2x resist to face these Pokemon (either a 4x or an immunity). The only types with a real advantage in my opinion would be Dragon, Water, Ground, and Rock (lol) due to their massive bulk and resistances as well as super effective attacks (in Dragon's case it's massive attack stats). Flying and Psychic have a fighting chance, but they're definitely at a disadvantage. Sun isn't too limited in time with two viable inducers, Ninetales and Charizard-Y, one of which has reliable recovery. Pretty much all the other types are helpless to the onslaught of Sun-powered fire-type attacks, which leads me to believe Sun can't be healthy for the metagame.

    On to Sand, with less powerful sweepers (they need set up), I was least expecting this to be broken. Hippowdon's general bulk lets it switch in multiple times and keep up the weather for multiple turns. It can even afford to run Smooth Rock in conjunction with Slack Off to set up near permanent sand. With 8 turns of sand Excadrill is really able to go to town. 135 base attack with a speed stat that not even scarf users can beat is extremely menacing. Against most Monotypes it can spam EQ and the occasional coverage move when needed. If the user happens to predict a switch (which isn't hard to force with many immunities and resistances) and Swords Dance, it's essentially "GG" right then and there. Sandstorm even provides an extra 1/16 damage every turn pushing a lot of 3HKOs into 2HKOs by negating leftovers. The abuse doesn't end at Excadrill, Landorus-I actually hits with an extremely powerful EQ and Stone Edge (more powerful than Lando-T in sand) and can even afford to run Smack Down to catch Levitate users. Garchomp, an already extremely bulky and powerful Pokemon, gets a 20% chance at essentially a free turn preventing some Pokemon from taking a chunk off its health and paving the way for survival from some revenge killers. The only types that have a strict advantage would be Water and maybe Fighting assuming you spam an obscene amount of priority and bulky mons. Flying has a terrible time against Ground with the combination of fast Rock type moves making revenging difficult and the flinches provided by Rock Slide. Grass would normally be a counter to the Sand Rush/Sand Veil spam, but Nidoking's Ice Beams and Fire Blasts quickly put a damper on that. All the other types I would say are at a severe disadvantage against Sand, especially with residual damage limiting the amount of finessing you can do with your switches.

    Rain I would be the closest to "not-broken" of the three non-Hail weathers with Water and Grass generally having an overall advantage against it. It lacks residual damage and while it does get STAB boosts, it isn't as powerful as Monofire. However, the STAB boost is still amazing and it has much more Swift Swim abusers than Ground has Sand Rush abusers. Life Orb boosted Hydro Pumps from Kingdra and Ludicolo make them not only speed revenge killers, but also potent sweepers. Kabutops can threaten with powerful STABs, speed, and Swords Dance while also fulfilling the role of a spinner. Omastar, Manaphy, Keldeo, and Gyarados serve as potent wall breakers that can easily blow holes in the opponents team to pave the way for the aforementioned sweepers with amazing set up and/or coverage moves. Omastar and Gyarados can even run a sweep (although not as easily) if they need to. This overlapping of purposes makes dealing with Monowater extremely difficult as most Pokemon can only counter one of their roles. Ice type attacks make for amazing coverage against types that would normally threaten it such as Dragon (also steamrolled by Kingdra) and Grass. Grass I would say still maintains an advantage though between Ferrothorn and Mega Venusaur. Finding a Pokemon that can survive this onslaught of sweepers and wall breakers with rain boosted STABs and excellent secondary typing is nigh impossible for once again a vast majority of the types.

    Sand, Rain, and Sun are clearly much to potent for the metagame. I'd like to hear other peoples' opinions on how they match up against the metagame in general and as to which ones they like to see suspected.
     
  37. .Rawr!

    .Rawr! c(°3°)כ

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    Well, giving my 2 cents on the weather discussion:

    Sunlight: This gen monofire was blessed with even two weather setters: Charizard-Y and Ninetales, virtually making water attacks neutral, also Solarbeam can take care of most rock/ ground/ water mons switching in (granted, Ttar, Hippo and Politoed can delay Solarbeams changing the weather, but only in monoground, monowater and monorock teams, aka "the other weather reliant teams"). Again all the other types, monofire will be firing Sunboosted fire attacks through all the game, from powerhouses like V-Create Victini, Flare Blitz Darmanitan, Fire Blast Charizard-Y itself, Fire Blast Chandelure, etc...
    In my opinion, drought is the most broken of the three weather, and at least Charizard-Y could be suspected for the dual weather issue.

    Rain: Although rain have a mediocre weather setter on Politoed, many Swift Swim abusers can carry the move Rain Dance themselves, like Ludicolo or Kingdra. Other mons which take advantage of boosted water attacks and/or Swim Swift are Keldeo (specs on rain is lethal), Kabutops (SD + high attack), Manaphy (Hydration+Tail Glow is gg)
    Although not powerful like Drought based monofire teams, Rain based monowater teams can be very problematic too.

    Sandstorm: In my opinion, the lest broken of the three. The most relevant abusers is obv Excadrill (SD + high attack), Sand Force Landorus-I (altough i can't talk about him, because i dont have experience in monotype with it) and Sand Veil Garchomp (meh)
    I don't consider the advantage very much for monoground teams, but the residual damage and boost speed for exca are still there, so yeah...

    My sugestion is ban the three weather rocks (Heat rock, Damp rock, Smooth rock and maybe Icy Rock too, but not sure) to limit weather to only the 5 turns of the weather setters (Ninetales, Politoed, Hippowdon) and suspect Charizard-Y (dual weather is too much for a super offensive type like fire)
     
  38. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    I find them all to be easy to manage. Fire in general is a weak defensive type so you must resort to HO clusterfucks of battles which results in playing monotype like HO and sacrificing what you don't need. And it is played this way on both sides. Rocks are pretty common in Monotype and Fire has nothing that is even DECENT at removing hazards. That 25% per switch in is rather painful. It is true that you are not going to be taking hits from these mons, but from my experience they die just as easily if not more. Sun spam is not as over powered as it seems. You need coherent teams AND the ability to make plays to be succesful. It's not just slap Drought and abusers on a team and win. The same thing applies to pretty much Drizzle and Sand Stream too.

    Sand Stream only REALLY gets Excadrill as an abuser because the others are either not fast enough or not strong enough, or a combination of both. Even at this Excadrill does not have the raw power to break games, however, in the late game it becomes a huge threat. Drizzle gets a bunch of abusers and the best abusers out of all the weathers in my opinion.

    If I were to give my take on all 3 weathers I'd say Sand is the best because of how solid ground is as a type in general with Rain coming in a not so close second, and Drought last. I feel this way because my win % against teams with Sandstream is significantly lower than that of Drought and Drizzle. It may just be me but I find those teams pretty easy to handle. It may be because people just expect to spam SS users and win, or just spam Sun boosted fire attacks and win when that is not the case. Fire has a hard time doing anything but that because it's more than a primarily offensive type.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that they are easy to manage because the teams tend to be very crappy. Then again this is strictly based off of personal experience and I am probably in the minority, but if you were to take action against the weather I'd recommend Weather rocks and if it's still too much then abilities.
     
  39. Shadow Sneak

    Shadow Sneak came in like

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    I've been using Smooth Rock MonoGround lately and I've found it to be really handy. Originally I used Air Balloon Excadrill with SD +3 Attacks, but I always found even getting in one SD challenging. But then again it is matchup. Against MonoWater I never got to even use SD, while things like MonoSteel I could set up but Skarmory was there to wall me.

    Onto the other weather, hail shouldn't even be mentioned imo since it was primarily based around stall and 8 turns of stall isn't fun.

    Sun on the other hand is STRONG. It was the first type I used this gen, and I really wanted to test out Flareon since it finally got Flare Blitz this gen. Band Flareon is very very strong, most people don't even see it coming. On the other hand Cleric Flareon is handy, as wish passing really helps Fire-types switch into hazards. On the topic of hazards, MonoFire NEEDS Defog/Spin support to even function. Taking 25% minimum (12.5% for Infernape and Emboar I of course) is a pain. Not even Torkoal with its physical bulk doesn't like switching into Rocks. Now remove Rocks from the situation, sweepers like Char X, Volcarona, and even Talonflame become 10 times worse. But yeah, MonoFire does much better when Rocks are off the field.

    As for Rain, I think this is one of the best of them all, even without rain MonoWater performs well. Keldo, Azumarill, Mega Gyara, and Greninja (I ran into a Scarf Greninja and it absolutely destroyed my Ground team even with Exca under sand) are the biggest threats I notice. For Rain itself, I don't see Swift Swim too much, mostly the spamming of strong water STAB moves. No common checks to Rain, as MonoGrass and Dragon are pretty bad this gen, so I would say Damp Rock Rain is the biggest threat of weather in Monotype. When I'm against MonoWater I rely on Gastrodon a lot, but Gyarados really hurts it. No wonder it is #1 in usage e.e
     
  40. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Eh, personally I think MonoDragon is pretty powerful. It's highly underrated despite having perhaps the biggest gains in the transition to this gen.

    While fairies can be a thorn in your side, it's not as though they're impossible to beat with almost every notable dragon having some sort of Steel/Poison move or powerful secondary STAB.

    With Latias and Latios now able to provide hazard support, it became a whole lot easier to run potent threats such as Kyurem-B, Dragonite, and Salamence, all of which can blow holes in/sweep teams with the slightest opening of opportunity. Raw attacking stats with normally above average bulk make the type a real hidden gem.

    Usually I'll run a team something like this:
    [email protected] support/tank
    LO Kyurem-B
    SD or lead Garchomp, generally SD since defog would negate rocks if I'm forced to use it
    DD Salamence
    CB Dragonite (maybe with Iron Head as a surprise, usually the other pokes have better options for faries)
    Scarf Flygon, makes a very nice check to Genesect when Kyu-B can't take another Ice Beam

    Dragon's far from bad this gen in my opinion.