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[Monotype] Monotype General Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Side Metagames' started by Roku, Nov 3, 2013.

  1. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Tournament Host Forum Moderator Tournament Host

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    You don't suspect something if it makes a type more viable than another one, you suspect when it's a serious problem for the tier. Suspects can not end in a ban, js
     
  2. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast!

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    Oh OK but still. I like assume all suspects as bans but that's just me.
     
  3. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast!

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    Kinda bumping this up a bit.
    I still don't know whether Aegi is going to be banned or not but I would like to see a Zard X suspect.
    It is not that Zard X ban will reduce fire's power but Zard X seems pretty much broken rn.
    1) Tough Claws+Fire/Dragon stab + EQ to troll steel or anything else in reality.
    2)Ability to run not one but 3-4 viable sets. Each having different checks. Also at +1/+1 It gets really annoying to many teams.
    3) And unlike in OU, it does not have a well defined set of checks for each type. Some types (grass, ice maybe bug) don't even have the ability to check at +1/+1 if the DD set is considered.
     
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  4. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Ok so now that Lando-I is banned. here are some the potential suspects I am suggesting to be implemented: (Top priority to low)
    • Mega Altaria
    • Mega Charizard-X
    • Mega Slowbro
    • Talonflame
    • Mega Metagross
    • Mega Gallade
    Will give detailed explanations for each when I have time
     
  5. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Tournament Host Forum Moderator Tournament Host

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    Meta metagross and mega zard x are the next.

    Talonflame won't happen sulcata already explained it many times.

    Mega Altaria is ok, I don't find it that problematic, still if people want to discuss of it go ahead

    Mega slowbro is good in mono ( better than OU for sure but it loses very easily when pressured a lot

    Mega Gallade, no opinion on that

    I'm actually in a rush so I won't develop for each atm. Also I notice that these are banned in smogon, which is a different tier than PO Monotype. So I'ld rather if you make posts of why they should be suspected :x
     
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  6. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Tournament Host Forum Moderator Tournament Host

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    Hi, now that complex bans are a thing we're going to resuspect Aegislash in steel only.

    However we need your thoughts on:
    - suspect Mega Altaria on Dragon
    - suspect Kyurem-B on Dragon
    - retest Genesect on bug
     
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  7. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast!

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    Mega Altaria is like the 'mega' which makes dragon mono what it is now. I don't think we should suspect it now.
    But KyuB, I think we should suspect it for both the types first then decide whether it's healthy in either of the types.
    As for Genesect, tbh I never played gene so idk about it.
     
  8. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    1) Mega Altaria is more broken imo on Flying then on Dragon.
    2) Kyreum-Black really doesn't deserve to be tested on either type, as it is not that broken.
    3) Ya, Genesect can be retested on Bug.
     
  9. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Tournament Host Forum Moderator Tournament Host

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    Can you guys provide more reasons as why broken/not broken. I stated in Charizard X suspect it has to be elaborated so we proceed to suspecting. Saying simply not broken is not helping anyone
     
  10. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast!

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    I'll tell that later. But here is an opinion on retests/suspects. I think whenever we test or suspect a pokemon we should do so for both the types. This will help us gain more info as to why it is broken/not broken in one type or the other and it'll help us compare the result.

    As for the current three mons.
    Genesect- Genesect was allowed in mono? ?-? Really? Irdk.
    Kyurem-B- 170/120/95 attack combined with a very decent movepool that is capable of one-monning lots of monotypes? I suggest a test. As mentioned above in both types.
    Mega Altaria- No matter whatever the case, 110/110/80 attack with pixilate and a setup move in form of DD. It is still pretty much derped by faster mons who can outspeed at +1 (also Mega Beedrill gets to 427 kek! Which is just a point higher than 426 which is altaria max speed at +1) and things like Scarf Latios/Bulky Dragalge/AB Heatran/Ferro/Aegislash exists to handle Altaria so let's not suspect.

    Also since we were retesting stuff. Can we retest mega mawile pls? e.e
     
  11. PeterJackson

    PeterJackson New Member

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    In my opinion Megazard X should be banned on monotype. Like Joyverse allready said:
    . Even in OU it is very hard to counter a DD boosted Megazard X, but in Mono for some teams it is even impossible. With a DD/Flare Blitz/DragonClaw/Earthquake set u can hit 10 of 18 types super effective and with Thunder Punch (instead of dragonclaw) even 11. Especially in Mono-Fly teams Megazard X can switch the whole situation; losing its electic weakness and gaining a restitance to it. Also the possiblity running a special moveset with Zard X, it makes it much harder to check it. And if someone tries to counter with ground/dragon moves u even can wait to mega-evole Zard. And to be honest: this tier is called monotype and not "i tried to mega-evolve my mons to gain another type." That's way to easy to win in this tier ;)

    P.S.: Sry, i know i only repeated already said things. but i really hope Zard X wil be suspected in Monotype.

    LG Peter Jackson
     
  12. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Tournament Host Forum Moderator Tournament Host

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    Mega Charizard X got complex banned in Monoflying so you can't use it in this type!
     
  13. PeterJackson

    PeterJackson New Member

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    Ok, but it is still allowed in Monofire?
     
  14. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Tournament Host Forum Moderator Tournament Host

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    Yes, you can see the suspect discussion linked in the topic of this thread!
     
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  15. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Tournament Host Forum Moderator Tournament Host

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    So hi, long time this thread was not used :v

    I have some potential suspects I want to bring:

    -Mega Altaria: Normally I would say that Mega Altaria is nowhere broken but Monotype is very different, since we removed the Dragon limitations Altaria became that one member you will always use because it's one of the best win con vs Drags/Dark/Fighting etc. After 2 dds it's sometimes impossible to revenge kill it, unless you're playing something like Bronzong or Ferrothorn. Then there is also the Cotton Guard DD Facade set that can totally catch off guard a lot of Pokemon ( such as Twave slowbro)

    -Kyurem-Black: This looks weird but Kyu-B is literally insane in Mono. Between the Roost set, the scarf set and the all attacker set, Kyu-B completely smashes some types such as Water/Flying/Grass/Ground and I pass some. Kyu-B is for me extremely hard to switch in and I could potentially see it as a suspect.

    What are your thoughts on it?
     
  16. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Never thought of Facade Mega Altaria. I always tried to get rid of status but it's an interesting idea. I'm not really sure where I stand on it though. I've never personally had trouble dealing with it when using Steel, Dragon, Fairy, Electric, etc. I'd like to hear what others think about this.

    Kyurem-B is pretty strong, but again I don't know how much I can say on it. I've mostly faced Choice sets from other users, so it's much easier to deal with overall.
     
  17. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast!

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    Burn+Defensive Facade Mega Alt and Twave Cotton DD Mega Alt are actually good. But I still believe that even a good player can get carried off and end up chipping off damage from Nanny Bird and end up getting it killed. I suggest we wait a bit more before we suspect Alt.
    KyuB, maybe.
     
  18. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Tournament Host Forum Moderator Tournament Host

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    So I was thinking doing a Baton pass suspect for some reasons:
    - After a lot of tests with @gengar17 we found that Geopass in mononormal is very broken, and hardly counterable unless the user plays badly
    - Full chains are still allowed and that can make some strategies broken ( i.e in Psy)
    - Mono barely has anything to deal with these kind of teams as they totally change the matchup and in a bad way imo

    Discuss
     
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  19. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Ya a Baton Pass suspect seems totally reasonable in monotype, especially considering that certain types have the advantage of running stuff like GeoPass and Sash Pass (Normal). Seems legit and support this idea.
     
  20. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast!

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    NO need of a suspect imo. With 3 very capable TLs around here, I suggest you take matters on your own hands and decide on whether to ban BP in Mono or not ;)
     
  21. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    considering that's more or less how talonflame got banned on PS (as i understand it) that sounds like a bad idea to let us just make bans as we wish

    full pass in psychic might be broken, but nobody uses it so how should i know?

    I've usually only lost to geopass if I've made bad plays myself tbh. I really don't think it's that big of a deal. That and I've only seen 1-2 people using it.
     
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  22. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast!

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    Guys since this is a general discussion thread can I ask for some teambuilding help? What do you think of Agility Mega Burd in Normal? Also is ther a good memento user in Normal so that I can freely setup my agility? Except Smeargle that is.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2016
  23. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Agility isn't worth it. Mega Pidgeot is fast as is. Usually you'd run something like Hurricane/Heat Wave/HP Ground/Work Up or Roost or U-Turn.

    By the way you can search through pokes in the teambuilder by type, moves learned, ability, etc. Smeargle is the only Normal that gets Memento.

    On the topic of Memento, I don't really see a need for that to set up Pidgeot. You'd be much better off trying to force a switch and use Work Up on that turn.
     
  24. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Tournament Host Forum Moderator Tournament Host

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    I don't get why memento+Bird when the only set up move is Work Up. Agility on bird doesn't help neither so you'ld better run screens with mons such as Girafarig or pokemons like double dancer Porygon-z. But these are gimmicks and can easily be dealt with. On a related note, Screens+ CM Wish Draining Kiss Flamethrower Mega Audino can do great work, considering how fat Audino is ( and it also gives you a win con vs Dark outside spamming Close Combat Staraptor since no Lopunny when Audino )
     
  25. Escoffier

    Escoffier New Member

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    Couple of points coming in as a mono player on PS.

    - Why does Fire have access to CharX as opposed to CharY?
    - If you want Drizzle/Drought banned, why is Sand Stream not in the same boat? Generic Hippo+Exca core is just as bad as SS water, and Drought is hardly ever abused.
    - Mega Altaria is too broken to be legal in mono.
     
  26. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Tournament Host Forum Moderator Tournament Host

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    Hi and welcome to PO.

    Drizzle with Water types nuked the whole tier and they both got suspect which lead to a ban. Charizard Y having drought is also banned as we cannot remove its ability.

    If you feel like Sand rush+ sand is broken, I wouldn't mind opening a suspect.

    Brought up Mega Altaria as a potential suspect but didn't got much feedback on it, I however agree Altaria should be suspected.

    After abusing more Baton pass I came to the conclusion it also deserves a suspect but again, not everyone agreed that we should open a suspect test.

    So atm I need feedback to know if everyone agree on these suspects : Sand, Baton Pass and Mega Altaria
     
  27. Escoffier

    Escoffier New Member

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    Also, how active/big is the mono community on PO? Just curious as the channel was completely dead earlier.
     
  28. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Tournament Host Forum Moderator Tournament Host

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    Basically alive in the Tournaments channel, our channels don't work the same as PS subchannels, most our competitive talk happen in tours
     
  29. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Ya Mega Altaria is an absurdly strong force in he meta that I feel deserves a suspect. It basically can steamroll through Fighting, Dragon, Dark, Bug and so much more after only even one boost and creates too many unfair match ups to be healthy in the meta imo.

    I never really use Sand Offense Ground teams but it just seems justify to suspect Sand Stream as well since Drizzle and Deought are banned and Sand should be looked at as well to be fair.

    Baton Pass is not that much of a huge part in the meta to be suspected imo, but I do see the problems that come facing that one BP team once in a blue moon.
     
  30. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast!

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    Idk whether to agree/disagree on an upcoming mega nanny bird suspect. Because am extremely biased atm.
    For sand rush+stream tho, I would rather see a suspect to somewhat nuke it before SuMo so yeah. The only possible point about sand being broken is that Smooth Rock is still allowed, if a suspect does come, I'll speak more about it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2016
  31. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Sand Stream tends to have less abusers than Rain since they all either get a power boost or a speed boost; generally not both instantly as is the case with rain. Fire doesn't get the speed boost but tends to have enough raw power to be able to just scarf things. That's not saying it isn't broken, but putting it in the same boat as rain and sun is dumb. It's quite a bit different with residual damage.

    Mega alt isn't broken, just good. idrc if it gets suspected though.
     
  32. Escoffier

    Escoffier New Member

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    The number of mons that abuse the weather set compared to rain isn't the central issue.. The problem is Hippo+Exca+MegaChomp being a generic staple that ground will always run and abuse.
    Rain is undoubtedly the top tier among the weathers, but saying sun via Drought is a bigger problem than sand is a little ignorant. Drought allows fire to better compete with bad match-ups like water and ground(Especially considering Sand Exca is running around free of weather change).
    If the boost to fire moves under sun is the problem, by that logic sand should be banned for the Sand Force/Rush/Veil/Resi Dmg abusers. Hail should be banned for giving Blizzard 100% acc/Cloak/Resi Dmg :/

    Really I'd say unban weather-setting abilities and ban the weather stones in their place. At the very least, unban Drought and leave Drizzle.
     
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  33. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Tournament Host Forum Moderator Tournament Host

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    I personally feel like Drought and Drizzle are completely different than Sand and Hail

    Having played PS, I feel like being forced to run Sap Sipper Azumarill just to not insta lose to Zard Y is stupid and broken, that is already when Zard Y counters are like Dragons and Chansey.

    Mega Garchomp+Driller lack something Sun and Rain give which is the stab boost ( you can argue Sand Force but having your speed decreased to 92 sucks a lot ) which don't make it like you spam stab withour fear. Not to mention you need moves such as Fire Blast or Fire Fang to get rid of Bronzong and to predict Heatran Balloon. This is the main difference with the 2 others: you can freely spam stabs​
     
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  34. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    That logic doesn't hold at all. That statement is completely nonsensical.

    You're making a (completely false) assumption that the power boost given by the various weathers is completely independant of the typings themselves. Fire gets a much bigger boost from Sun than does Ground from Sand. Fire already has powerful mons with high powered STAB moves that are further boosted by the weather. Sand doesn't have the STAB boosted excepting a few mons with Sand Force (so Mega Chomp and the extremely rare Exca with it, maybe a gastro if you're dumb enough to give up the water immunity). Having your STAB move boosted on /every/ Pokemon is much, much better than on 1-2 of your team. Sun also reduces the weakness to Water and gives a few mons access to Solarbeam. Sand does 6.25% damage a turn.

    All of the weathers are completely different beasts. Broadly comparing them like that is completely ignorant of the important differences that the weathers (and the types that have access to them) have in terms of boosting STABs, increasing speed, or focusing on residual damage.
     
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  35. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    What is the issue with using good mons on a type? Elaborate.

    Just because it improves a few other matchups doesn't mean we should keep it. Drought ruins way more matchups than it fixes (hint: it doesn't fix sand and kind of ruins the water matchup).

    As Xdevo said, comparing weathers in a vacuum is pointless. Don't call others ignorant when you haven't gone back to even skim over the arguments for and against banning Drought. The weakness reduction and power boost are the basic factors that broke it, but simply listing them isn't even close to an explanation of how they affected the metagame.

    "Ban sand" -> "The weathers are all equal" -> "Just ban stones instead"???
    We're not rebalancing all of mono just to equally restrict weathers which are inherently different and of varying powers. The metagame with drizzle and drought was horribly centralized and unbanning them would cause it to become horribly unbalanced in its last few months before Sun and Moon.