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XY OU Potential Suspects Thread

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Discussion' started by Halsey, Nov 4, 2013.

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  1. MewtwoHidden

    MewtwoHidden My Hax Makes Me Famous

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    Then why don't you make a response to everybody's posts and negate the relevance of our arguments. That's how any kind of debate works.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2014
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  2. MetalGross

    MetalGross gems…

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    Now the Baton Pass suspect is over (for now), I feel there's only 1 broken thing left in the tier. Genesect.

    I know it has been suspected before, but in my opinion, it's still broken.
    From what I gathered, many people feel the same way. Many of the forum tournament players were stunned that Genesect wasn't banned. There was a lot of support in the thread for a ban to take place, but that didn't happen. It goes as far as PO being laughed at by Smogon players. It also leads to atrocious things like this.

    I'm not posting here to explain why Genesect is broken. I'm posting because the decision was made poorly. There are many options to decide if a pokemon should be banned or not: a ladder request + vote, paragraphs or a council. But on Genesect, the Tier Leaders decided themselves, which was strange because almost always the users get a say if the result will be controversial. And because we only had 2 TLs at the time and it was a tie between them, Professor Oak decided wether Genesect stayed or got banned. With all due respect, but Professor Oak barely had any experience in OU. Not the kind of person to decide such a delicate matter.

    So in the spirit of POT and POCL coming up, I'm wondering, what's gonna happen with Genesect? Will it be suspected again? Or just outright banned? Or are we just gonna ignore all of this and let it stay in OU?
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2014
  3. DarkDiglett

    DarkDiglett free pridy

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    I just didn't see the point of having a Genesect suspect thread as users had no say in the result, as the result was decided entirely by 3 people. Was a complete waste of time and obviously didn't reflect the opinions of the playerbase. If it does get suspected again, can you do it properly?
     
  4. Lameflame

    Lameflame Active Member

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    Just putting my two cents in, but I think the problem with the Genesect suspect was the fact that Pro-Ban could never deliver a cohesive RFD (reason for decision) why Genesect should be banned from OU.

    Certainly there were some good points made on both sides, including the Pro-Ban side, but amidst all the ad-hominem, borderline theorymon and public-will hovering around 50/50, the tier leaders had to take it up themselves. Finch was adamantly Pro-Ban and Hannah was mildly Anti-Ban (it seemed that way to me), so Oak makes a simulator-defining decision and keeps Genesect in OU. Voila, it's over.

    I don't think a re-suspect for Genesect would be beneficial, nor does it seem very likely in my opinion. Between the BW OU suspect thread and the latest XY OU suspect thread, all the points have been made and you'd be better served to just run a poll asking people what they want ... which is a very slippery precedent to set. I know a 3 person panel isn't very democratic but it would just be another 30+ days of deadlock like last time.
     
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  5. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    Whatever happened to the good "you must have a ladder ranking of at least X to participate in this vote"?

    I hardly play the tier, but it's well known that almost everyone that's got a high amount of skill (read: gets picked in team tournaments, makes it far in regular ones) thinks Genesect should be banned. Smogon members make fun of PO because Genesect is still allowed. And like MetalGross said...in the end it was decided by Professor Oak who has very limited experience in the tier.

    The two latest OU suspect discussions have gone hilariously and horrifically poorly. The Baton Pass thread ended up being locked because the tier leaders (Or at least Hannah, judging by her post on the matter) had completely misunderstood what the community believed the issue to be prior to posting, and the Genesect vote format as well as the outcome of the vote has been ridiculed multiple times, to the point that we now have apparent leader support (take a look at those liking MetalGross's post) for a re-suspect only slightly more than a month after the last suspect ended.

    PO seriously needs to consider who leads their tiers - if you're not in touch the community, you shouldn't lead this tier.
     
  6. [C-WI] Roro97-Kitetsu

    [C-WI] Roro97-Kitetsu Well-Known Member

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    DARE TO ISA

    !! INSTALL NEW WALLPEPPER NOW !!

    [​IMG]
     
  7. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    Actually, I was never a fan of that. It does filter voters to high-ranked players and limit the amount of people who don't know what they're doing, but what about the people who still know what they're doing but have no say just because they aren't in the top 100 (myself included :P)? What if the people in the top did not deserve to get to where they were because they used something uncompetitive, such as the Liepard Loop in BW2 NU to UU, which had people rise to the top of the ladder in the matter of hours? Does that make them instantly better than everyone else? Also, you need to have the time to play online in order to increase ranking, so logically, that would mean if you have no internet or capability to battle online, you would have a low rating meaning tough shit your arguments mean nothing.

    tldr, a new person who grew to top of the ladder with Swagger in two weeks has more priority than a veteran player who hasn't played on the ladder for a while but has years of knowledge?

    ...................yeah, and a 15 year-old Freshman in high school should teach the English class because he got higher test scores in the subject than the 50 year-old teacher got at that age. How does that make sense?

    I don't recommend the "Higher Ranking = Higher Priority" system. It's an easy system to follow, but it's still a clearly unfair one.

    Okay, that's a good point. Suspect Discussions should have democratic decisions and not totalitarian unless the consensus is completely obvious. People SHOULD have their own say whether something should be banned or not and not just one to three higher-ups.

    Although I will say the discussion (not the decision, but the discussion) for Genesect seemed rather fair, the rest I agree with; the tier leaders need to get more organized because right now everything is becoming rather sloppy.
     
  8. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    I THINK WE SHOULD SUSPECT THAT SHIT IF THAT'S THE CASE.

    I made it caps, bold, italics and underlined to get my point across, just like you do!

    ps. special applications are standard.


    edit: oh wait, i know! if we don't have the high rank cap, then why should a 15 year old freshman student teach english on the same grounds as an actual teacher - especially considering that this student is the worst in the class?!
    dont try this at home kids
     
  9. Laurel

    Laurel Well-Known Member

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    I believe that Genesect should be suspected again
    • It is cancerous to the meta, Uturn, Uturn, Uturn, over and over and over
    • It can run 5 different sets effectively, you are forced to guess before it punishes, CB is the most deadly
    • Although things resist its Uturn it grabs free momentum on the switch... on Keldeo, Aegislash, etc doesn't matter. Therefore, it becomes a 50-50 whenever Genesect switches in. Stay in and risk Ice Beam on for example Dragonite or have Keldeo Uturned on.
    Mainly the first one. These threads are not fun to post in, mainly due to the responses I'm going to get by people I have never heard of. I just wanted to get my feelings across. I have not done a PO Ladder Battle in about 4 months because Genesect is OU, and it is beyond stupid. Quality OU battler CrashinBoomBang has used Genesect every week of POWC because you are quote, "More retarded than Laurel," if you don't use it.
     
  10. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    I don't think Gene should be resuspected, but revoted. Just say you have X amount of time to get X ladder ranking. After the time is up have people confirm their alt(s) with their vote and/or a paragraph explaining why.

    Also, how does everyone feel about Mega Mawile? I don't know if I think it should be banned, but possibly suspected. I mean it has very few safe switch ins and relies, in a sense, on 50/50's to beat it. It has pretty decent bulk It gets a fair amount of opportunities to set up an SD, and at that point is where the 50/50 game really begins. Even without the boost it still hits like a truck. +2 sucker 0hko's most of its revenge killers, can run a fair amount of sets so it isn't completely predictable (Sub Punch, SD w/ STAB's + Filler, Knock Off Set, Fire Fang set etc.).
     
  11. Laurel

    Laurel Well-Known Member

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    Nah on Mega Mawile. It's really really strong, but regular Mawile has trouble coming in on things, and its only way of revenge killing into a safe mega is with sucker punch which is really obvious. Not going to argue against it being one of the top 3 or 4 metas though because it definitely is. I just think it gets easily worn down before the end of a battle. Its also not strong enough to sweep offensive teams unless prior damage was done to bulky ground... e.g.: sucker punch to excadrill does around 70%
     
  12. Luck>Skill

    Luck>Skill Well-Known Member

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    Why would we resuspect Genesect, there was a suspect discussion that went on for 4 pages and like 2 months and didn't end that long ago, I'd rather have a vote OR an actually sensible decision with serious reasons other than "I'm the boss and I decide no ban despite not even playing the tier (or pokemon at all)"
     
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  13. Jay B 11

    Jay B 11 Dont read this sentence

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    I believe alakazite should be tested.
    I have tested out running mega-alakazam with this set:
    Alakazam (M) @ Alakazite
    Shiny: Yes
    Trait: Magic Guard
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Psyshock
    - Focus Blast
    - Shadow Ball

    Running calm mind is risky I appreciate that, but thats just how I play. When it mega evolves, its special attack and speed rival that of mewtwo, which means once it gets up a calm mind (which it can, it has some bulk) it wrecks everything. Trace, although not as good as magic guard is still an awesome ability. I usually abuse this by mega'ing on the turn when my opponents sends in greninja and so I get protean aswell. This thing hits ridiculously powerful with protean.

    If you have doubts, play some matches with it. It can easily sweep teams on its own.

    The only thing that can stop is priority (which may not even happen as I once traced sturdy from a donphan :D) as it is kinda frail but most of the time scizor and talonflame are already out of the way to not even be a worry.
     
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  14. Fuzzysqurl

    Fuzzysqurl baa baa mareep I do what I want Server Owner Developer I do what I want Server Owner Developer

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    252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Alakazam: 304-359 (120.6 - 142.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    And it outspeeds you on the turn you Mega Evolve.

    Even at +1, a little damage hurts you: 252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Alakazam: 203-242 (80.5 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


    The only way you're going to be killing Greninja with a Mega Zam is if you're already in, boosted to at least +1 (or higher depending on the damage you've sustained), and can land a Focus Miss... or you're already Mega Evolved and can land your Focus Miss, no boosting required, because you'll outspeed. Though Greninja with Shadow Sneak can drop your HP a good chunk: 0- Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Alakazam: 140-166 (55.5 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


    Keep in mind, a Greninja can also Shadow Sneak and make your Focus Blast hit the Ghost immunity instead of a Super Effective, though Shadow Ball will kill you (on the contrary, Shadow Ball won't KO an all Dark Greninja if you try to just flat out KO with Dark Pulse). Just play around with immunities and resistances and you can easily keep Mega Zam on its toes. You could probably even take down a +1 Mega Zam with that Greninja.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2014
  15. Jay B 11

    Jay B 11 Dont read this sentence

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    You said it, the only way to take it down is through priority, but the statistics show shadow sneak isn't even used on greninja. You can mega and calm mind on the turn greninja comes in and with modest you outspeed next turn. Sure it relies on focus miss hitting but still it's pretty decent. If you want you can replace shadow ball with signal beam for more reliable ko's. Also you wouldn't switch into a greninja, they switch into you :P
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2014
  16. MUMU

    MUMU DNR KILLED IT

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    Just because genesect is a good user of U-turn doesn't mean it's broken,it's speed on it's useful sets (life orb and band)isn't the best,not to mention it's contact moves has their own drawbacks and download is easily played around,also,despite having a lot of move in theory,realistically it's optimal sets run 2 of same and 2 from 4 others.
    U-Turn is good but it comes with hazard damage,(and potential life orb recoil)usually all it does is forcing 50/50s.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2014
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  17. Fuzzysqurl

    Fuzzysqurl baa baa mareep I do what I want Server Owner Developer I do what I want Server Owner Developer

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    Shadow Sneak is on the 3rd set and has almost 12% usage.
    Signal Beam on Alakazam has just under 6% usage.
    You shouldn't ignore the usage on something if you're going to counter it with something that has half the usage.

    Also, I'm not sure who in their right mind would switch a Greninja into an Alakazam anyway, Focus Blast is on over 55% of Mega Zams, and you're outsped at that point.
     
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  18. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    I agree with this entirely here, but it certainly plays a role in making the entity (Genesect) a potentially broken force in the XY OU metagame.

    It has enough speed to outpace every single member of standard-stall teams, with base 99, and it also has ESpeed to compensate against faster, frailer teams (anyone who has used Genesect can attest that boosted ESpeed does a ton of damage).

    What do you mean by "it's contact moves has their own drawbacks"??? If you mean that they are prone to damage by things like Rocky Helmet, Iron Barbs, Rough Skin, and Spiky Shield, then I'll grant you that, as it's true, but doesn't every other pokemons' contact moves do that, too? (Anything from Arceus' ESpeed to Bidoof's Tackle is prone to these types of damage). If you're talking about drawbacks of the moves specifically, being Espeed, Iron Head, Blaze Kick and U-turn, then what do you mean? They're all accurate, they all fill their roles on Genesect well (Iron Head is hard-hitting STAB that can flinch, U-turn provides momentum while doing STAB damage, Blaze Kick hits Steels and such for surprisingly heavy damage, and Espeed is strong priority with a good neutral coverage). As for Download being "easily played around", that means that you have to predict around the Genesect user. If you're relegating it to a guessing game and/or out-predicting your opponent when facing Genesect, odds are there's something wrong. While things like putting 4 EVs into a specific defense for Download itself is fine, you still have to figure out the set / damage output before dealing with Genesect appropriately when only the DL boost is revealed. Overall, the topic of "playing around" something is generally a weak argument for suspect discussions.

    While this is generally true (might be underestimating by a move or two, but whatever), you still have to scout it out quite well and while genesect arguably has 4mss, it also works against the opponent, too, as they might believe it has a move and play cautiously, fearing it, when Genesect lacks it, or believe it lacks a move and play aggresively, not fearing it, and then getting a key pokemon killed. You're only looking at one side of the spectrum here and it's detracting from your analysis of Genesect as a whole.
    While it may have amazing offensive stats, as you say, that doesn't necessarily correlate to being broken. Alakzam without Magic Gaurd lacks even the smallest shred of survivability. Switching-in against offensive teams is nearly impossible, meaning more often than not you have to have a pokemon die just to send it in safely, and then you also can't get more than one kill, if that, at a time as any and all revenge killers will kill Alakazam or force it out. Even if I were to give you the benefit of the doubt and disregard the utter fragile nature of the thing, it's unable to destroy everything on the offensive as you claim. In fact, it's unable to OHKO 7-8 or so of the top ten pokemon (yea, usage stats aren't too reliable, but it's indicative of quite a bit considering these have been commonly used throughout the last couple months and have been used frequently on the higher portion of the ladder / in tournaments) in the metagame and that number doesn't get proportionally smaller as you go through the metagame and look at lesser prominent threats, either. On the contrary, going back to the defensive bit, seven of those ten pokemon are able to OHKO mega alakazam and all of them can 2hko it (depending on sets, kinda). Finally, agreeing w/ you that it's weak to priority, which hampers its viability (not even getting close to brokenness considering it's hardly viable) even more, in my opinion.

    PS, in regard to the fuzzy-jayb11 back-n-forth: Nobody runs Signal Beam Alakazam in XY considering Celebi's rarely ever seen (unlike in BW) and Shadow Sneak Greninja is generally considered unworthy of a moveslot as it has so many common moves on the special side that are of great aid to it, such as: Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Extrasensory, Hidden Power Grass/Fire, Dark Pulse, etc. - then, there's also moves like Sub and U-turn that also have more use than SSneak.

    Also, let's refrain from discussing potential lines of action on Genesect and focus on Genesect as a potential suspect itself - the tier leaders will discuss the means of action, if there are any, for a prospective Genesect suspect/vote/ban/etc.
     
  19. MUMU

    MUMU DNR KILLED IT

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    Indeed it outspeed every single stall team member,however,Genesect by itself can hardly go about damaging full stall,and heatran being in almost all full stall isn't the only reason,frailer teams also usually ko it back,often faster.

    This is another problematic part,Genesect shouldn't often get to get the correct download boost,I didn't mean to say prediction when I said download is easy to play around,my bad,used the wrong wording,even though a bit prediction does take part,download is easy to team-build around would be better phrasing,as much as simple as giving 4 ev to give the wrong boost to use against,as you mentioned,sometimes a little bit more on others cases.

    Another reason Genesect sets have slight issues is that physical/Physically Mixed attacking sets have only a specific few move,where spacial sets,which compose of all out attacker or scarf sets,from my personal experience playing against it at least,are rather underwhelming,I am not saying it's spacial sets are all outright bad but generally it usually has more success when played to to it's strength,which is the physical spectrum,where it's option is limited.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2014
  20. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    I feel dumber by looking at the situation more when the answers are literally in front of everyone.


    First, people wanting another Genesect Suspect Discussion, what would discussing Genesect's impact on the metagame accomplish now to get a just vote? Let me tell you the answer: nothing, because WE ALREADY FUCKING DID IT.

    There's absolutely no point in doing a Suspect Discussion on Genesect again; we all heard the arguments and nothing has happened in the metagame to change them. Doing another discussion is not only stalling with repeated facts, but pointless because those repeated facts are copy+paste from the last one. We might as well just do an immediate vote because arguing about the same things ALL OVER AGAIN just to get the same result is redundant to every definition.


    Also, something really has to be done with the politics on PO. I know people are discussing it, but right now, it's just a mess. There is no clear way to decide on what and when something should be banned, the leaders are not taking action half of the time and delay things, and most of the decisions so far are becoming less democratic and more "you are not as good as me so shut up" than it should be. (No, I'm not targeting anyone or saying everyone is doing this, but it shouldn't have to look like that!)

    You guys have been doing this for years, right? Well, get organized. Update the system and patch up the obvious flaws. Seriously, stop putting this until later and fix the main problem while doing your job. I don't have the authority to say or do anything about this, but no one should have priority/authority on something if they can't fix what should really be fixed about it!


    For god's sake, how is this all so hard? Most of this is common sense!


    Also, about MegaAlakazam, Regular Alakazam is just better. It doesn't need the speed boost, it's movepool is too poor to make a difference with its power boost anyway, and Magic Guard is all it needs to be good, as it allows it to hold an item like Choice, Life Orb, or Focus Sash, all of which enough to make it terrifying as it is. Also, Trace is horrible on it because it has almost no chance to abuse a stolen ability well, and I'd rather stick with Magic Guard.

    If you want MegaKazam banned, then you should ban Regular Alakazam as a whole instead, because it is much more threatening that it's Mega Evolution (and don't give me the "180 Special Attack too op" bullshit, we should just ban MegaHeracross then).
     
  21. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    I feel this needs to be added.

    There was a council. 4 people discussed the issue and went 2-2, the issue was then taken to a (presumably) unbiased party to break the tie. I understand that people didn't like the result, and I understand that people dislike the lack of inclusion. It is completely unfair and obviously self-serving to insult one person because of the entire situation.

    Yes, things were done that wasted time, and yes there are issues with PO. Ignoring the whole issue and simply blaming one person due to misinformation is doing nothing to help the situation.
     
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  22. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    If the answers are right in front of everyone and nobody else is saying them, then why don't you go on and say them instead of calling out every other poster?

    While this is true and I thank you for bringing that up, OU now has a new leader and circumstances have changed since then, so a suspect, vote, etc. isn't out of the question.

    As I said earlier, let the tier leaders decide the means of looking at Genesect again (if need be) and let you, the posters of this thread, discuss Genesect as a pokemon.

    I'll be the first one to acknowledge things are a mess and don't get done in a speedy manner (this doesn't mean it's my or any other individual's fault, as if things when my way all the time, the position we are in would be different, but life isn't always perfect and my opinion isn't always correct, either, so this causes dispute and not everyone is glued to their computer screen, so it takes time to settle said dispute). Regardless, I don't see how complaining about "politics on PO" has any place in a potential suspect discussion, so PM me / another off if you feel the need to, but don't drag things like this out /too/ much here, thanks.

    Agreed on this for the most part.
     
  23. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Bump.

    While there is currently a Genesect vote going on, I would like to hear more on what people believe could be future suspects.

    The following mons come to mind as controversial: Deo-D, Deo-S, Aegi, Char-X, and Thundy. Feel free to discuss other Pokemon, but I'd like to hear more on these specifically.

    Hopefully, this can help and speed up future suspects and tiering decisions!
     
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  24. Rohail

    Rohail Active Member

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    Deoxys-D: I have already expressed my thoughts on this and I'll say it again. Deo-D supports teams WAY too easily, getting up at least two layers in most matches. Its incredible bulk sets it apart from other Spikers, as it doesn't have to run Focus Sash to get more layers up, which lets it run important items like Mental Herb to prevent it from being Taunt-bait, which is the only way to actually prevent Deo-D from setting up. With these hazards, offensive behemoths like Mega Mawile, Landorus, and Thundurus have some of their best checks in 2HKO range. For example, with Stealth Rock and one layer of Spikes, Mega Mawile can 2HKO 252/252+ Hippowdon with Play Rough. However, some may argue that hazards are really easy to get rid of this gen, and while it's true compared to the other generations, there are still consequences for doing so. Defog not only gives your opponent a free turn to do whatever they want, Deo-D almost always carry a Defiant user like Bisharp and/or Thundurus on them. At +2, both these Pokemon can easily dismantle teams enough to have another offensive Pokemon set up and sweep with ease. Rapid Spin is an options, but in OU, there is only one good Rapid Spinner, which is Excadrill, and Excadrill is stopped cold by Air Balloon Aegislash, unless there's some excellent prediction on the players' part (even if there is, the player will only manage to defeat Aegislash, not actually successfully Rapid Spin because the opponent now gets a free switch into something that OHKOes Exca). All-in-all, the type of support Deo-D gives to offensive teams makes the playstyle one that is incredibly hard to stop, which is why I think that Deoxys-D should be suspected, and then banned.

    Deoxys-S
    : In my opinion, as well as many others', Deo-S is the one most hardest Pokemon to switch into in the entire metagame. I say this because it has excellent coverage and a decent amount of power when equipped with a Life Orb. The only safe switch-ins the LO set has are Aegislash and Mega Scizor, however the former is still hurt by a Knock Off while the latter gets destroyed by the rare Fire Punch. Not only that, but Deo-S can use the numerous switches it forces to support its teams by setting up hazards and/or dual screens. Dual Screens Deo-S is especially dangerous, as behind these screens, offensive Pokemon like Diggersby, Landorus, and Mega Charizard-X can really do work against offense, while against bulkier teams they become harder to outlast. However, Deo-S still faces terror from priority, which OU is filled with, but that's kinda it for Deo-S's flaws imo. Overall, Deo-S's overwhelming coverage, supporting capabilities, and versatility makes it a suspect-worthy Pokemon, and probably one that I would vote ban.

    Aegislash
    : Now, I'm really on the fence about this thing. While it is undoubtedly the best Pokemon in the current metagame, it has its fair share of flaws and good checks, both offensively and defensively. Thanks to its ability, Aegislash effectively has 60 / 150 / 150 / 150 / 150 / 60 stats, which is incredible for an OU Pokemon. Its Shadow Ball hits incredibly hard and is too spammable, having very few Pokemon that can actually switch into it on most offensive teams, and those that can switch into it are felled by its coverage in Sacred Sword. In fact, the only true counters to Aegislash are Mandibuzz, Hippowdon, and Chesnaught, the latter of which is beaten by Flash Cannon while all three of them are beaten by its SubToxic set, so they can't even be called "counters". Finally, the amount of Pokemon that Aegislash walls thanks to its excellent typing makes it a really good Pokemon to literally throw on any kind of team and always get good results, which is really what makes it the perfect Pokemon. Now for its flaws, in my opinion, Aegislash is forced into too many mindgames with King's Shield, especially with set-up sweepers. Pokemon like Mega Gyarados, Mega Charizard-X, and Mega Mawile can easily exploit it by forcing it into 50/50s. "If I King's Shield, that Mega Charizard-X can set up on me and sweep my entire team, but if I attack and he goes for Flare Blitz, I lose the only switch-in I have to that Latios." Furthermore, Aegislash is basically forced into running either Leftovers or Air Balloon so it has the longevity to keep up with its checks or the ability to check a bigger list of Pokemon, respectively. This means it has no way to boost its power, letting Pokemon like Azumarill and Garchomp switch into it and beat it with relative ease. However, all of Aegislash's strengths are more than enough to cover for its weaknesses, which is why I think it should be suspected, and maybe banned.

    Mega Charizard-X: Mega Charizard-X is definitely broken in my opinion. It has the perfect combination of bulk, power, Speed, and longevity. 130 / 130 / 100 attacking stats combined with 78 / 111 / 85 bulk is a godsend when you consider the great boosting move and typing that Mega Charizard-X has. Not only that, but it gets Roost to keep itself healthy and set up in the face of Pokemon like Bisharp, Mega Scizor, and Rotom-W, all of which are common Pokemon. Then, you take into account its Tough Claws ability, which boosts its power to undefying levels when it gets a Dragon Dance boost or two. Literally the only way to stop it without being crippled is by strong priority in the form of a CB Talon's Brave Bird or a CB Genesect/Dnite's Espeed. You can also use bulky Ground-types like Hippowdon and Landorus-T, but even they're beaten with a couple of boosts. Lastly, Azumarill, a Pokemon that resists both of Mega Char-X's STAB attacks is 2HKOed by an unboosted Flare Blitz after Stealth Rock, which is saying a lot considering Azumarill has decent bulk as well. Mega Charizard-X also does amazingly well in stall, as it has the typing and bulk to take on and beat offensive behemoths like Mega Mawile, Bisharp, Thundurus, and Mega Scizor, the former of which especially causes trouble to stall teams. The only thing holding Mega Charizard-X back is its Stealth Rock weakness and existence of bulky Ground-types like Hippo, Gliscor, Lando-T, and Rhyperior. In conclusion, Mega Charizard-X's qualities and unparalleled sweeping abilities make it a prime suspect and definitely ban-able Pokemon.

    Thundurus: Thundurus is a Pokemon that looks broken on paper, but might not be in practice. Thundurus has really good attacking stats and blazing fast Speed, as well as two great abilities in Prankster and Defiant, and finally, a decent typing both offensively and defensively. This lets Thundurus check many of OU's most dangerous Pokemon, like Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, and Landorus, while revenge killing Pokemon like Keldeo, Gengar, and sometimes even the Lati twins. Prankster also lets it put a stop to set-up sweepers like Mega Tyranitar, Mega Gyarados, and Mega Charizard-X among others, while Defiant lets it beat every single common Defogger while breaking the rest of the team into shackles with the Defiant boost under its belt. So basically, Thundurus is one of the best Pokemon in the metagame. However, OU has more than enough ways for dealing with Thundurus without hampering effectiveness, unlike the other Pokemon that are up for suspecting. Any Ground-type that isn't 4x weak to Ice, stall Pokemon like Mega Charizard-X, Mega Venu, and Chansey (unless it's running Psychic/HP Flying in the case of Thundurus or is a physical set in the case of Chansey), and the now common Electric-types like Raikou and Mega Manectric can all beat it with relative ease. Yes, Thundurus has ways to deal with every one of these threats (except Char-X, which is a perfect counter), but it will be giving up its other, arguably more useful, moves in doing so. Overall, Thundurus is definitely a metagame-defining Pokemon, and could even get suspected, but as of now, I don't think it's broken because the amount of effective ways there are to deal with it.

    Those were my thoughts on the possible suspect, and I suggest also throwing Mega Mawile into this pool because it's also pretty suspect-worthy imo. I'll post about it later when I have more time.
     
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  25. Lameflame

    Lameflame Active Member

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    I may go back and comment on the 5 recommended / potentially-suspect worthy pokemon later, but I don't feel too strongly about a suspect for any of them except for Charizard X, and Rohail summed up all my points on it nicely already.

    I would much rather see at least some form of discussion, for or against, on Mega Pinsir. Can someone please tell me what isn't 1HKO'd / 2HKO'd by this thing after a Swords Dance? The ease at which Mega Pinsir can set up a SD and sweep is pretty incredible in my opinion. The only way to really threaten it is to make sure Stealth Rocks are up before it's switching in 100% of the time, revenge killing it (and take some hefty Aerialite Quick Attack damage), Paralyzing it (prankster T-Wave, sac'ing Ferrothorn/Chansey, etc.) or withering it down some other way (phazing + hazards, rocky helmet/iron barbs, toxic, etc.). The set I'm referring to:
    Mega Pinsir @ Pinsirite
    Ability: Aerialite
    EVs: 252Atk / 252Spe / 4 Def
    Jolly Nature
    - Return
    - Quick Attack
    - Swords Dance
    - Earthquake
    I understand that OU is littered with very strong priority (Aegislash Shadow Sneak, Talonflame Brave Bird, Dragonite/Genesect/Deo-S ExtremeSpeed, Mamoswine Ice Shard, Mawile/Bisharp Sucker Punch, Scizor Bullet Punch, Thundurus T-Wave, and many other moves that don't really threaten Pinsir). The problem is that you're essentially forced to sacrifice something in order to bring out your revenge killer for Pinsir -- and if you don't, you're seriously risking the chance that he'll SD and sweep you entirely at +2.

    Normally I'm a bit more lax with the "you can't switch anything in" argument, because 1) It's a generic and overused argument and 2) Sometimes that's just how battles go, not everything will always have a perfect check/counter for every set. However in this case, you already know that Mega Pinsir is almost always going to be Jolly and thus 339 speed, with Return/Quick Attack/Swords Dance/Earthquake or CC. Close Combat is a viable but imo inferior option as a +2 Return decimates basically everything anyway. That, in combination with the stupidly easy opportunities Pinsir has in this tier to set up SD pushes it over the edge for me. Pinsir sometimes also runs Stone Edge instead of SD altogether and seriously limits it's checks, but this isn't the set I'm discussing so I'll just leave it at that.

    Checks/Counters: The only Pokemon that come anywhere close to a counter/check to Mega Pinsir in OU are Mandibuzz, Skarmory & Zapdos, who can scare it out with Foul Play, Brave Bird & Thunderbolt respectively, or phaze it out (+ rocky helmet damage). Skarmory and Zapdos are both 2HKO'd at +2, although Mega Pinsir needs SR up for Skarmory. Mandibuzz kills with Foul Play if it goes for a SD and Pinsir misses the 2HKO with Return.

    Gliscor can switch into a +0 Return but will be taking about 50%, and that's assuming it's 252/252, has no prior damage and Pinsir hasn't gotten up a SD. PhysDef Rotom-W isn't switching into anything at +2, but is a reasonable check at +0 ... although Regular Pinsir could potentially have Mold Breaker + EQ, so this is somewhat iffy for a switch-in. Scolipede can play around with Speed Boost but ultimately will still be hanging on by a thread after Quick Attack, and needs to have + hit Rock Slide.

    You also have some other niche, non-OU situations where Pinsir is still +0 and can be checked. PhysDef 252/252 Porygon2 can take a Return and threaten with Ice Beam. PhysDef 252/252 Cofagrigus can take a Return and then take 0% from any of it's non-Aerialite moves, WoWing in return. Hippowdon is a great check/counter, except it has to run Stone Edge to actually hit Pinsir or else it's really only going to phaze it / become set-up bait. Rhyperior is a pretty hard counter so long as it isn't switching in on a +2 Earthquake, as it can take a +2 EQ and then kill with Stone Edge/Rock Blast. But again, these are pretty niche situations and while I'm all for creativity in teambuilding, you don't see a lot of Cofagrigus or Rhyperior in OU, Porygon2 is somewhat relevant and Hippowdon wants to run plenty of moves not named Stone Edge, as far as I'm aware.

    Setting up Swords Dance: This is my main point honestly, because after Pinsir gets to +2 it's imo the most deadly sweeper in this entire tier, as unlike even Genesect, it doesn't have a universal "heatran" counter per se (okay, Rhyperior, you got me). Given it's speed tier, previously listed moveset and the standard moves/sets run by it's opposition, the following list illustrates why Mega Pinsir has an easier time setting up SD than most other set-up sweepers in the tier:

    Mega Pinsir SD's, these pokemon can do little in return:
    • Azumarill (loses unless it uses Belly drum on the same turn Pinsir goes for a SD)
    • Clefable (needs flamethrower)
    • Deoxys-D
    • other Choice Locked Pokemon (e.g. Keldeo-Secret Sword) that could otherwise kill it.
    Mega Pinsir could OHKO, but SDs on an (obvious) switch-out:
    • Bisharp (outsped, EQ)
    • Breloom (Quick Attack)
    • Conkeldurr (outsped, Return)
    • Charizard (outsped, Return)
    • Excadrill (outsped w/o sand rush, EQ)
    • Sylveon (outsped, Return)
    • Venusaur (outsped, Return)
    Mega Pinsir could 2HKO, but SDs on an (obvious) switch-out

    Azumarill (outsped, Return + Quick Attack)
    Quagsire (outsped, Return + Return, needs no scald burn)
    Scolipede (Quick Attack + Quick Attack, wins if it has Rock Slide + SR though)
    Chansey (Return + Return, but cripples with T-wave)
    Landorus (Return + Return)
    Close 3HKO: Ferrothorn (Return/EQ 3x, cripples with T-Wave + Gyro Ball)
    Close 3HKO: Gliscor (Return 3x, or SD + Return, can only use toxic or rare ice fang)

    It's pretty late and I've likely missed a few blatantly obvious opportunities for Pinsir to SD more or less for free and sweep, but I think the point is made already. The combination of overwhelming power, strong priority and a strong speed tier in conjunction with a fantastic boosting move in SD pushes Mega Pinsir over the edge to me. Any flaws it has are very easily mitigated by very basic team support, and the fact that revenge killing it or outplaying it are the only reliable ways to kill it doesn't help it's cause.
     
  26. Rohail

    Rohail Active Member

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    The reason I don't want Mega Pinsir to be put in this list is because the metagame has adapted around Flying spam very well, and trust me, I know, I used Flying spam in my 216 battles to get suspect reqs on Smogon. I realize that all of Mega Pinsir's counters are 2HKOed at +2, but what you miss is that they will switch into Pinsir as it Swords Dances and OHKO it on the next turn. Yes, they lose about 50% or more of their health, but notice how some of the strongest and most common counters Mega Pinsir has (Skarmory/Zapdos is mainly what I'm referring to) have reliable recovery in Roost. Furthermore, there are plenty of common Pokemon on HO that can take even a +2 Quick Attack and revenge kill it, like Thundurus, Mega Manectric, Air Balloon Aegislash/Excadrill/Heatran, Choice Scarf Tyranitar/Landorus-T, Raikou, and even Terrakion. Notice how all of these Pokemon are sitting at very nice usage, and despite being pretty frail (most of them) they take less than 50% from a boosted Quick Attack, making them sufficient revenge killers. Mega Pinsir is really good, but I don't think that's it's suspect-worthy because of how the metagame has adapted around it and Talonflame.
     
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  27. Proof

    Proof Well-Known Member

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    Honestly, I'm really disappointed in the way this tier has been functioning recently. In all other tiers, the voice of the members of the community has been addressed; unfortunately, recently in OU, the minority has been controlling the majority. One of the first things I'd like to address is Genesect. Almost all skilled players, and most players overall, want Genesect banned from OU. Instead of bringing to light why Genesect has been broken, which has already been mentioned hundreds of times in this thread and the Genesect suspects, I'd like to point out the disorderly fashion in which it wasn't banned. In the primary genesect discussion, the support was generally 50-50. The discussion went on for 6 weeks, much longer than it should have. The main argument not to ban genesect was "Heatran is a counter," which is pretty bad, but it makes sense that if half of the people posting didn't want Genesect banned, it should go to a vote or council. Again, instead of making it a vote where anyone over a certain rank on the ladder could vote, it was help up to the minority (the council). The council was unable to make a decision, leading to the decision being made by even less people-- Finchinator, Hannah, and Oak.

    Hannah and Oak decided they wanted Genesect to be left in OU, since there were only 3 people voting, a 2-person majority was the reason Genesect was left in OU. Neither a fair council nor a fair vote was made to decide Genesect's fate, and so it stayed in the tier. I know that there's a very high chance that Genesect will be banned whenever its next vote is over, however that's not the point. There were some massive blunders made by the council and Genesect was left in the tier rashly. The first Genesect suspect was, honestly, a complete mess. Sometimes things don't go smoothly, however promptly after the decision on Genesect was made, another mess was made where the demands of the actual players of the tier weren't met, being the baton pass suspect.

    I was one of the first posters about a complex ban on baton pass, and suggested at least 3 ways to potentially go about banning baton pass. I had a surprising amount of support regarding my post, even more than I expected. Many people spoke about how they believed baton pass was broken, and many people liked my post. It was clear that people had a problem with the ridiculous baton pass chains. Shortly after, a baton pass suspect was made, however it completely ignored the requests of the suspect thread. A complex ban wasn't even an option, and there wasn't even a poll to ask if people supported a certain type of ban; the thread simply said ban the move baton pass, or do not ban the move. Even people like myself, who were in favor of a baton pass ban, didn't want to ban the move altogether. It would've been a visibly unfair ban, and most people saw that. Almost instantly there was a ton of support for a complex ban, and people questioned why it hadn't happened. I know some tier leaders wanted a complex ban, but for some reason it was shot down. Almost half the thread was talking about supporting a complex ban, even though it wasn't even the topic of the thread. It was clear that there was overwhelming support for a complex ban, so the thread was closed. The thread was closed just because no one wanted to post about banning baton pass as a move, so Finch closed the thread and said a baton pass complex ban would be "discussed privately". I don't know if the discussion hasn't went anywhere, or if it just hasn't happened, however the baton pass suspect was handled almost as terribly as the Genesect suspect, and it's still usable in the tier, disregarding much support against a ban.

    Overall, the demands of the actual players of the tier, and even some of the tier leaders, haven't been met. Suspect posts have been ignored, and the suspects that were made were messy and poorly-done. It's disappointing to see that a small minority of people have been making decisions regarding the tier. A suspect with such dominating support should either go to a vote or the council. Although Genesect went to the council, it was only decided by 3 people; and although Genesect was finally taken to a vote, it's been months since its initial suspect. The baton pass suspect wasn't taken to the council or a vote, and was simply left untouched hoping people would forget about it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2014
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  28. Hannah

    Hannah Come a little closer

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    First of all, I'm not exactly sure of what you were informed of the initial Genesect verdict was left upon a council of 4 users taken from within the Genesect suspect thread. The latter part of the vote was after the council was formed, we needed a 5th man to ultimately decide the outcome which both the current tier leaders agreed to leave the decision with Professor Oak (who is in charge of who the TLs in general). I'm pretty sure that this was brought up my xdevo within the thread but you need to get your information set straight.

    You also touched on how the minority of the community took over the majority for this vote and once again I'd have to disagree. It seems as if you completely ignore the other half of PO's playerbase and glorify the group of users that you have around you. Just tallying up the previous suspect thread and you could see how it was around even when it came to Pro and No ban. This is something that has already been bugging me is that you say that you're speaking and addressing these issues on behalf of the PO community when you say things like "Almost all skilled players, and most players overall, want Genesect banned from OU."


    The discussion on complex bans is still ongoing. Though if you want to give me a good reason on why Pokemon Online should adapt Smogon's decision and entertain this complex ban then please feel free to do so.

    Once again, you seem to be going around in circles because you address yourself as the majority while completely ignoring the rest of community. A group of players who feel that they are the most skilled within the server is not "the majority." You're contradicting yourself while at the same time showing how little you value the opinion of the rest of the community.
     
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  29. Dreams

    Dreams Active Member

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    Don't have time for a fancy post but @Proof, several arguments were made regarding full chains and the overall consensus unlike smogon was that full chains are manageable without resorting to unviable niche mons and just smart play and common ou mons are sufficient to pressure full chains to self destruct. Instead of clamoring for a suspect, I'd like to know what you think about what has already been discussed about full chains ( the consensus was that they aren't broken, as of now)
     
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  30. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    @Proof and pretty much everyone without inside info on PO:

    The reason why the genesect decision was screwed up at all is not because there was a majority that thought it should get banned and it didn't, but rather that the final, tier deciding discussion and vote happened between two people who know what they're doing and one who hasn't seriously played the game in at least all of the time this current generation has been out.

    Ill just say it since everyone deserves to know why this is still happening and everyone else will beat around the bush: Oak shouldn't have participated in that final vote. This, which is basically a round 2, is basically the formal way to remedy that. Because now we actually have 3 tier leaders instead of 2 and a tiering administrator, and unlike common opinions I hear on one of them they all know what they are doing this time.

    If it comes to a 50/50 standpoint or simply no super majority is present then at the very least it'll be decided by people who know what's going on in the tier this time around.
     
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  31. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Alright so first off, Proof wasn't so blatantly misinformed - the conclusions he drew off of the information he had is what's causing dispute and that's generally what happen when people have different opinions. Regardless, I'd say we should all just agree to disagree and leave the past in the past. I am sure that the future will bring improvements with Sinclair, Hannah, and I all leading the OU tier.

    If this Genesect vote goes well, then maybe we can drop the old council idea and just have a vote after all suspects that don't have an obvious outcome from the discussion, similar to what the UU leaders are doing with PO XY UU this generation. However, this requires a higher level of quality in the suspect discussion and for this vote to have good participation and reasonable paragraphs sent in by a large majority of voters.

    While I understand why Proof posted and I understand why the people after him posted (in response), let's attempt and leave this thread solely to potential suspects such as: Deo-S, Deo-D, Aegislash, Thundurus-I, Charizard-X, Mawile, etc. (see: the list I posted earlier and some of the other pokemon discussed with-in the last page or two). (PS: Baton Pass will be dealt with, too, but let's not discuss this here)
     
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  32. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    Yeah I haven't played in a while, but nothing currently seems to be an emergency right now and I really don't think much is crazy op in the tier as we speak.

    The only ones I'd probably vote for a ban are Charizard-X and Deoxys-S, the rest seem fine.


    I'm just going to mention from what Rohail and some others mentioned, so here we go:

    I don't see why Deoxys-D should be banned before Deoxys-S because its defense is overrated (good, but compared to what existed before it isn't great) and Deo-S is just harder to stop as a whole. If it does get banned for other reasons, at least make sure Deoxys-S is banned with it!

    Quite frankly, I still don't see the hate for Aegislash. Of course, it's not easy to switch in, it's not easy to kill if they know what they're doing, and it surely isn't easy to stop setting up (not to mention King's Shield is a bitch). The problem is that everyone looks at it so directly that they forget the hundreds of ways to go around it. Earthquake, Will-o-Wisp, Special Attacks, Hippowdon, Skarmory, or just flat out prediction. It's not a Pokemon that shreds teams just because you use it; it's a Pokemon that forcess a prediction war, and if you find that as the only reason it's broken then ban a third of all of the Pokemon with the same logic. I may be wrong, maybe it is broken, but Rock-Paper-Scissors as the sole reason won't get anywhere without leeway.

    I never found Mega-Pinser broken. It's strong, has Swords Dance, has priority, and can kill many things with its arsenal, and I still don't find it broken for the same exact reasons as Talonflame: frail, hard to set up, nearly impossible to switch in, and is not strong enough to be super-threatening without a boost. Next?

    I can't make an argument for Thundurus without either being completely wrong or misinformed, so no comment.

    Mega-Mawile. I can see why people are split between it, but I don't think it should be banned.......yet. If the metagame becomes overcentralized with its massive power and can overcome its shortcomings easier than it is now, then sure thing. But now, I can't see the problem besides being really really strong, especially with no speed to provide (outside of Sucker Punch) or super-stellar bulk to sponge hits.


    So yeah, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I can at least give my opinions.

    If I may, Hannah?


    First, I gave the exact same idea a while back on this page without knowledge that Smogon did it, so don't go on with stealing from Smogon.

    Second, ongoing? Are you serious!? Why are we so hesitant with a logical complex ban? I still don't see a reason why we shouldn't for this seeing it's a perfect time and place to do one. I'm sorry, but from the discussions from the Baton Pass Suspect page (which I could bitch about for the sheer stupidity but won't) show that the only way is either a complex ban or nothing, and we all know leaving it for later will make matters worse.

    Third, I think you believe that a complex ban involves more tricky programming and just makes things complicated and should not be looked at. That's wrong. A complex ban is a last resort for when something has to be done and there is no other successful way to do it. Baton Pass is a just example of this seeing that there is no other obvious way to fix the problem.

    So, again, how is this still an ongoing discussion when the best and possibly only answer has been there for MONTHS? I don't get it!


    Please, could you tell me why we can't just do a complex ban that will solve everything, because I just don't understand your reasoning for it! (And the fact that, to be honest, you never really told us why we aren't going that route in the first place, just "no complex bans and that's that")

    I'm sorry for the rage, but it's just that this is easier than we are all making it and there is no reason why it's being stalled out.
     
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  33. MikeDawg

    MikeDawg New Member

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    I think that the most relevant suspects atm are the Deos and Char-X.

    Aegislash, imo, is better out of the meta than in, but that's far more controversial.

    I've never found the deos to be too exceptionally difficult to handle, but I certainly understood where opposing arguments were coming from, and I think that they certainly apply this gen as well.

    Deo-D can set up hazards like none other. It is a relatively large reason that a defogger is required to sustain a more balanced team, because the chip damage coupled with hyper-offense pressure is overbearing.

    Deo-S can do the same, but coupled with incredible unpredictability. Every time I see a lo psycho boost, the damage output surprises me. Modest lo 95 base attack is actually very strong compared to typical scarfers. Add the ability to switch moves, as well as rather decent bulk and incredible coverage, or perhaps dual screens, and it becomes apparent that deo-s is probably better out of the meta.
     
  34. Lameflame

    Lameflame Active Member

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    Some thoughts and questions on potential suspects:

    Deoxys-Speed: I know that the Deoxys-S OU Retest happened a while back when Mega Lucario was nearing the end of its suspect test, so the metagame was still relatively new(ish) at that point. However I'm just wondering what changed since the seemingly one-sided retest thread in favor of DeoS that is leading to this uprising over Deoxys forms being in OU. We haven't really made any direct changes (okay Swagger is gone) since then, and do correct me if I'm wrong but DeoSharp / Defiant+HO was still a very potent threat back then as it is now. All of the pokemon that were listed in that suspect thread that could check/beat(?) Sash Lead DeoS are still doing well usage-wise, and its other sets are just like any other sweeper - only really fast. I'm certainly open to being persuaded but right now I'm simply looking for an answer as to why the urgency is there to suspect the Deos.

    Aegislash: Sorry for all the questions... but when did "it would make other things in the metagame more viable" become grounds for deeming a pokemon unfit in a tier? I'm not even disagreeing, as the argument does have some merit, but I've been hearing people cite that as their only/primary reason for banning Aegislash and that's really poor logic and a slippery slope imo. Just because it can potentially run many different sets doesn't mean it's overpowered. If you go through every suspect that's been done this entire Gen for every single tier, a vast majority of them are pokemon that aren't one-dimensional, that can go mixed, band/specs, LO, sash, etc. This team preview fetish that everyone seems to have is really harmful to the future of competitive pokemon, as it blurrs the distinction between really good pokemon like Aegislash and broken ones. Aegislash has checks/counters in the metagame at high usage, and while I understand that there is no universal counter that beats all of its potential sets, honestly, if you can't kill Aegislash then I don't know what to tell you. Any respectable neutral STAB hit kills/maims it in Blade form, and there are even threats that can OHKO it outright in shield form without fearing King's Shield at all (Bisharp Knock Off, Landorus Earth Power, Excadrill/Ttar/Zard-X EQ, etc.). King's Shield forces a lot of 50/50s, but it's designed to do that and it isn't as though every hit you land on Aegislash has to be a coinflip. I'm open to hearing arguments on Aegislash too but they'd have to be pretty good to persuade me to change my mind on this one.

    Thundurus-I should not be discussed even a little bit for a suspect until Baton Pass is sorted out (whichever way it goes), because it's a crucial Prankster Taunter that teams need to stop the chains. I may continue with further posts later about some other potential suspects, but these are the two that caught my eye.
     
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  35. MikeDawg

    MikeDawg New Member

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    I'd say that the inverse of this (that Aegislash shouldn't be banned because it would lead to things like Gardevoir or Pinsir being broken) is a worse argument.

    I had initially agreed with you, but after a bit of thought, I don't think that the argument in question is particularly invalid, as it is nearly the definition of centralizing.

    If a pokemon is deemed to be too centralizing, and thus puts a large strain on teambuilding, then that is grounds for a ban. Making more pokemon viable is a derivative of that.

    I'm not arguing whether or not this is applicable to Aegislash itself.
     
  36. MewtwoHidden

    MewtwoHidden My Hax Makes Me Famous

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    [​IMG]

    Deoxys-S can fill several roles on a team; be it as a Life Orb Attacker, Screens Supporter, Hazards Setter, or to set up Rain Dance. The most troublesome of these sets in my opinion is the Screens Setter set.
    Deoxys-S has unmatched speed as well as Taunt, Mirror Coat, Recover and somewhat decent defenses which can be quite great when behind a screen. The problem lies when Deoxys-S is used in tandem with powerful offensive Pokemon that can take advantage of the Screens to ease setup or just last longer to pound through the opposition. Key Pokemon used in this case are; Diggersby, Mega Charizard X, Aegislash, etc. The ease that this set can put you into a position to win with barely any risk involved would make Deoxys-S a great Pokemon, but it has more depth than that and that puts in on shaky ground on whether or not it should remain.
    Another great set is tends to run is the Life Orb Attacker set. With a blazing Base 180 speed stat and very solid (after Life Orb is applied) 95/95 attacking stats, Deoxys-S can outspeed just about everything in the tier and manage to hit incredibly hard with its excellent coverage. It tends to run Psycho Boost / Ice Beam / Superpower or Stealth Rocks / Knock Off, Fire Punch, or Hidden Power [Fire]. This moveset hits a wide range of Pokemon super-effectively and the only Pokemon that can counter it with any degree of safety are Aegislash and to a somewhat lesser extent Physically Defensive Ferrothorn which is only a counter if the Deoxys-S has no fire type attack.
    The Hazard Setter and Rain Dance sets are quite simple, yet effective at what they need to do which is setting up reliably and quickly. The Hazard Setter set can even stop ALL defoggers in OU from getting rid of its hazards if they were to come in on it which Deoxys-Defense cant do (as well as being able to set up 2 hazards just about every time), which gives it a niche over it on DeoSharp teams.
    The amazing versatility, ease of setup, all around good stats, as well as having very few counters for the Life Orb set and the incredibly brokenness of the Screens Supporter set lead me to believe that it deserves to be suspected in which case I would be Pro-Ban!
     
  37. Lameflame

    Lameflame Active Member

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    Sylar / Lameflame
    It's about as equally poor in my opinion, it's essentially theorymon and not worth relying on when removing something from the OU metagame.

    I agree that over-centralization is a justifiable and legitimate metric by which a pokemon can be deemed broken. I just happen to think that the term is being tossed around quite liberally by anti-Aegislash players, since there are a plethora of high-usage, viable checks to Aegislash already in the tier that don't have to make too many accommodations to the sets and spreads they already like to run to beat it.

    I also essentially agree with @MewtwoHidden's stance on Deo-S. Still not quite sure about the timing but I guess it's moot anyway.
     
  38. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    I agree with @MewtwoHidden on Deoxys-Speed. To sum it up, Deo-S has speed to outrun basically everything, even most things with +1 speed, while being able to support teams with Screens, Hazards, etc. or being able to power through things with a great attacking movepool and mixed capabilities.

    However, I'd like to focus this post on a possible partner suspect of Deo-S, if it comes to that, in its other OU form: Deoxys-D. The hazard-setter on the common Deosharp teams has proven that it's not living under Deo-S' shadow, but actually an elite team supporter. Generally speaking, Deoxys-D's running Red Card or Mental Herb with Taunt, Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Thunder Wave. In addition, some players, including myself, use Rocky Helmet and even Taunt / Stealth Rocks / Spikes / Recover (which fairs exceptionally well against stall, but this set isn't as prevalent, so I won't emphasize too much on it). If not already evident, the goal of Deoxys-D is to get up at least rocks and a layer of spikes, but it can realistically get up more while only specific things limit Deo-D to getting up only rocks or nothing at all.

    To jump to the point, Deoxys-D's ability to stack hazards is the fuel to the fire of the most prominent and controversial playstyle, in DeoSharp and hazard stacking offensive in general, and the direct support it supplies makes Deo-D suspect (and possibly ban) worthy, in my opinion.
     
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  39. Rage.

    Rage. [Hero] and [LGI]

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    [Hero]Zapdos.
    Deos is broken for the aforementioned reasons, i'd be for a suspect here too.

    DeoD isn't in my opinion. The tier has enough hardhitters to deal with it by easily 2HKOing (keldeo, Zardx/y, landorus-i, any kind of band/specs users, Aegislash, Bisharp etc). If you have to defog you need a mon to take a +2 move from sharp and revengekills it. There are fighting types good at, like Lucario, Keldeo, Terrakion, Conkeldurr and maybe infernape. Other good (offensive) answers to Bisharp are scarftyranitar, dragonite [because rocks are already removed], mgyarados, greninja and if bisharp is weakened Talonflame. Another important fact is that bisharp cannot switch that easily into defog users like Latios (barring AV Sharp while it kinda needs the life orb boost) or Heat Wave Zapdos. On the defensive side it mostly has to face skarmory which can phaze it out / kill w/ counter. With hazards removed the DeoSharp team has a harder time to exert the pressure it needs using strong choicers and boosters that can't wear their checks down after defog.

    On the other possible suspects i would say no ban:

    Aegislash: Like for deod its bulk is overrated; its power is too. For HO, it's handled by Dragonite, Bisharp, Charizard and MGyarados with ease and with that low speed it is outsped and at least revenged by Greninja, Keldeo, Landorus-I, MPinsir, Garchomp and other pokemon that can 2HKO and aren't KOed back by BallSneak combo (not hard tho especially since Spooky plate's usage drops to use balloon, which is useful against excadrill). Defensively it finds itself checked by Mandibuzz, Zapdos, Heatran, Tankzard, Hippowdon and sdef Megavenu for standard mixed (probably more, e.g. sdef gliscor) while subtoxic won't really break through the stall team, since it completely fails to kill Heatran, Chans/Bliss, Gliscor and can't suppress heal bell from chansey.

    MegaZard X: Ok tankzard is an annoying bitch. But it's easily broken through by faster things 0-2HKOing it, like Keldeo, Landorus-I and every dragon/ground (rock too, but would be scarf tyranitar or evolved jolly mtyranitar exclusively iirc) attacker if you manage not to switch into WoW or in case of dragons also Dragon Claw. DDzard is revenge- and pressurable since it is quad weak to stealth rock before it evolves and after that it still takes 25%, while the form is not that hard to "guess" in my opinion, Zard Y wouldn't come into electric types, while it mostly always runs a pursuit user as a teampartner, unlike ZardX; Zard X on the other side can't come into bulky grounds which are quite solid checks, as well, Azumarill also is good against DD and scarf users like Landorus, Terrakion or Garchomp revenge it easily.

    MegaMawile: Almost every team runs a resist to sucker punch, like the ones i mentioned for bisharp, they revenge mawile with the same ease. Defensively it finds itself checked by Gliscor, HPFire/EQ Mvenusaur, Hippowdon, Heatran (unless SubPunch) and if the swords dance is predicted well Tankzard. Rotom-W can cripple it too and Landorus-T takes only 38% from play rough, being immune to spikes.

    MegaPinsir: It cannot come into a majority of the metagame without getting rekt by the next priority coming. Even if it lives an attack from MGyarados and gets an SD it won't sweep any well-prepared team in a generation full with priority and especially the very present Thundurus and Talonflame. Balloon Aegislash also is very solid against Pinsir, being common on DeoSharp for spinblocking Excadrill and defeating SD+Sash+Outrage Garchomp.

    Thundurus: Threatening =/= broken; the twave set can get checked by electric types, aegislash and generally lacks the power to sweep prepared offensive teams, plus it mostly gets wrecked during the turn it twaves an opposing sweeper, while NP is not hard to revenge, maximally the revengekiller gets crippled by twave which is a complete waste on NP imo.

    MegaZam: lol not broken; it's UU and there no one complains about it. As Finchinator said most of the top 10 OU threats atm keep it in check.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2014
  40. happystar

    happystar New Member

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    So 2.4.2 has come,when can we use Diancie in OU?
     
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