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XY OU Potential Suspects Thread

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Discussion' started by Halsey, Nov 4, 2013.

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  1. Marche Radiuju

    Marche Radiuju crush it casually

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    Talonflame isn't broken as long as you accept that you'll never have a grass, fighting, or bug pokemon that doesn't resist STAB priority Brave Bird as useable. It's not like T-flame is going to sweep the metagame - that's not what it's good at, and not what's being complained about. Sure, Tyranitar, Rotom-W, blah blah blah are good checks/counters. Does having a counter somehow make its centralizing factors irrelevant? I still can't use grass types (unless you consider 'keep SR up' any more useful than the advice 'don't get hit' in a fight).

    Would a vote with requirements be useful for any of these lower priority bans? MBlaziken/MGengar/Deo-N are fairly obvious for centralizing power, but there's been a lot of change. I can't think of a better way to see how people really find it outside of theorymon.
     
  2. Weiss

    Weiss Member

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    Talon flame doesn't seem broken as long as there is no acrobatics flying gem. That set was just too powerful. Brave bird, however, seems managable so far.

    Deoxys-n, gangarite and blaziken are by far the standout broken pokemon out there right now and I don't think much people need convincing when it comes to those three. I'm glad that banning the item is discussed rather than banning the pokemon.

    Genesect is probably another easy suspect. The same arguments remain from last gen, only now it gained yet ANOTHER set which is probably the most potent of them all (gear shift espeed is no joke).

    Other than those four, we need more time to let things settle.
     
  3. Laurel

    Laurel Well-Known Member

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    I honestly think Mega Gengar is pretty underwhelming... in the mean time Mega Khan is pretty much amazing. As long as you don't play dumb Gengar can't trap everything. I can definitely see the argument on it being broken but I really don't think it's that bad... The strongest mega IMO is Kangaskhan but that's just me.

    Talonflame is definitely fine it's good but has many many checks. Heatran Rotom-W etc...

    MegaGar at least deserves a vote and a legitimate test before we just ban it... Even if like 50 people vote ban (Shaymin-S in gen 5) Also it's not bulky enough to pull off Perish Trap. I run Aegislash on every team so maybe that's why I don't really fear Gengar idk.
     
  4. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    C'mon juggler...

    So tell me, since Heatran completely stops almost all grass types dead in their tracks, has it been the sole reason they've been almost non-existent in all of BW OU? Or why Celebi could still be used to excellent success in DPPt? Has Scizor ever dropped in popularity because things like Skarmory and Jellicent completely wall it to absolutely no end, with no way to get past either? Talonflame's existence is no more limiting to Grass or Bug types in general than anything else that existed before it, and it can only revenge kill most fighting types since it's not switching into even resisted attacks more than once with the power creep this generation. Those defenses are pitiful.

    That's what cracks me up about Talonflame being called broken; it's strictly a revenge killer. It doesn't have the power something like Blaziken or Deoxys-A/N has, it doesn't have Shadow Tag like Mega Gengar, and unlike Genesect it doesn't have a godly Scarf set or anything that potentially "dominates" the tier. It doesn't even have the massive bulk and multitude of other things Kyurem-B has going for it, which is the only reason why it can stay mid-high OU with that horrid ice typing attached to it. Fire/Flying is pretty nice offensively, but not when you have 81 attack.

    Flying Gem Acrobatics was a one shot pony that grew substantially weaker after that gem is gone, and the notion that you can get in a Swords Dance easily at all is ridiculous.
     
  5. Marche Radiuju

    Marche Radiuju crush it casually

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    That's why I don't think it's a priority at all, the rest of the tier right now is all the things that got even better with the change. I think it's worth looking into after all the obvious numbers (Manaphy, Blaziken, MGengar, Genesect, Deo-N, others?) are ticketed. Though I was mostly speaking from first-day experience where Flying Gem was allowed and Acrobatics ripped my team up a time or two. It's still potent but not to what it was. I expect it'll end up in BL once all is said and done, though.
    I knew there was a flaw with my argument but staring at it for a minute didn't help me find it. thonx bro

    Kangaskhan is not broken. If we're going to judge by purely attacking power, Absol is still superior I believe, with STAB Sucker Punch and Magic Bounce and ridiculous stats. MGengar is over the top with Special stat good enough to OHKO with neutral Sludge Bomb/Sball (fantastic coverage too) on a lot of things and Dbond + Shadow Tag to take anything with it.
     
  6. Wander

    Wander Shitty Wizard

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    You are wrong, those Pokémon have been OU long before Talonflame was ever conceived, the logic behind this is terrible. Common OU Pokémon who are legitimately good just happen to counter/check Talonflame, that's not a reason to say that Talonflame is centralizing (I know you never explicitly stated this god awful word, but your implication isn't subtle).
     
  7. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    ...

    You could at least say "I disagree", or "The way I see it". "You are wrong" is a rather impolite way of putting things. Anyway, with Talonflame ranked number three in usage on both Showdown and PO, I very much doubt that it is coincidence that Rotom-W is a whopping nine places higher than in BW2 OU, despite the Drizzle nerf. Tyranitar and Heatran actually dropped in usage compared to BW2, which can be explained.
    Tyranitar is an obvious one, Sand Stream nerf and no reason to combat other weather (Politoed at a sad 67th place in current stats says enough) means it usage should drop considerably. Despite that, it's still at a solid 12th place. Anything to do with Talonflame, perhaps?
    Heatran dropped from 7th place to 13th place in the transition from BW2 OU to XY OU. Why? Because it's outclassed now by several pokes. Offensively Heatran can't compete with Fire-types like Blaziken, Talonflame and even Mega Charizard (all three have more usage currently). It's defensive set is the only reason to still use it, and it's good at this so that's why people continue to use it. It checks important threats, like Aegislash, Scizor and ofcourse Talonflame.
    Now, I agree with you that these three pokes are all good in the current metagame and fulfill multiple roles, but you can't deny that Talonflame plays a very major role into why they have high usage. You don't have to put words in my mouth either. I never said Talonflame was centralizing. I'm just saying that it's forcing people to use certain pokes because they are at a severe disadvantage otherwise against teams with Talonflame. Is this wrong? Then please bring some solid arguments instead of saying I'm wrong and putting words into my mouth.
     
  8. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Consider the fact that people likes to try their shiny new toys when they get them instead of the ones they've already played with for several years.

    Usage statistics means little this early on, in my mind.

    ...and maybe Tyranitar is highly ranked because of its ability to check a lot of different Pokémons with its absurdly good BST, ability (and with few other weather starters likely to be popular again - bar MegaCharizard maybe which is highly unlikely to switch in on any TTar, that means high chance of raised SpDef - so even better BST in practice), HUGE movepool, ability to go both offensive, defensive, Pursuit-trap things, run Assault Vest, set Stealth Rock...hmmyeah there's a few reasons! edit: I even forgot that now mega evolves.
    It's been top OU ever since it was introduced in GSC! A "considerable" drop in usage is not to be expected with a simple nerf of it's ability. It might even be more splashable this generation than previously.

    You're on a one-man quest, step back.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2013
  9. Wander

    Wander Shitty Wizard

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    Usage stats mean very little at this point as stated, Talonflame aside from being a great revenge killer, is also shiny and new, which is why it has so much usage.
    Tyranitar's usage has little to do with Talonflame, if you would stop being so tunnel visioned you might notice that it's also a strong check against new things like Aegislash, it got a great new item to abuse in Assault Vest, and oh yeah, it has a new Mega Evolution. Heatran as well, it's so good right now because it quadruple resists a brand new type introduced this gen , its STAB Steel moves got a LOT better this Gen, and its resistances are still as good as ever. Rotom-W hasn't changed much, but it has always been a good Pokémon and it walls things like Azumarril and Charizard who have also risen in usage, oh and it can't be paralyzed now. It never really benefited that much from rain anyway.

    If by "forcing to use certain Pokés" you mean "forcing to use Pokémon who are clearly viable and do other great things than just checking Talonflame", then yes.
    If no, then, you're wrong. :[
     
  10. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    Did you even read my post? Let me repeat it:

    Are you really saying that Talonflame only has high usage because it's new? Sounds like a great and relevant argument (sarcasm).

    Same goes to you Isa. You're totally missing the point. Wander actually acknowledges that Talonflame forces you to run certain pokemon, which aren't bad pokemon, but it does force you to use them or be in big trouble against Talonflame, which is a step in the right direction. I never claimed that Tyranitar was a bad pokemon, in fact I clearly said it wasn't. Read my posts please.
     
  11. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    So it's just like any other high tier Pokémon in that it forces you to prepare for them...etc. etc., which is easy, can be done via a multitude of Pokémon that are all viable in their own right even if it weren't for the existance of Talonflame, and are likely to be found on every team even if it weren't for Talonflame. This also being a Pokémon with horrible defensive typing AND stats and so subpar stats it needs to use Swords Dance to be threatening.
     
  12. ZoroDark

    ZoroDark i know everything

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    You can't really use usage statistics as an argument now at all, because they're so flawed. Many, many pokemon got freed again (Landorus, Manaphy, Thundurus ... you know the list) and these undoubtedly have a huge impact on the usage statistics. Usage statistics have only been recorded for a couple of days as well, adding another factor to their unreliabity. With XY only just starting up, people are mainly trying out new things which explains the high usage of Talonflame, Greninja and other new toys. Ofcourse Heatran's usage won't be as high if you consider all this. If you're implying Tyranitar's main use in XY OU is to check Talonflame, that's not true at all. It's still a fantastic mon, and even though it lost some things, it regained a splendid partner Excadrill even when Sandstorm only lasts 5-8 turns. Rotom-W is still an awesome momentum grabber, and if you run a set with some physical bulk (which is by far it's best set in XY OU), it still checks a whole boatload of threats like Manaphy, Sand Rush Excadrill, Landorus added to everything it checked back in BW2 OU.

    Also, sure Talonflame forces you to run something to beat it on every team but that's the base of competitive pokemon. You have to run something to beat Aegislash as well, just like you have to with every single pokemon. Everyone acknowledged Talonflame gives offense a hard time, but it's not this unbeatable monster you turn it into. At the end of the day it's a pokemon with below average stats and horrid defensive typing that lacks power to break through walls at +2 and struggles to KO offensive threats at +0. Tbh I wouldn't be extremely surprised if it becomes UU in the future when OU is stable and most of the hype is gone.
     
  13. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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  14. .Rawr!

    .Rawr! c(°3°)כ

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    I think this sums all the Talonflame talk. I agree with all of this, except the UU part, i think Talon will remain OU, sort of Volcaronish mon, strong but needing good support to do well.
     
  15. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    What are people's thoughts on Manaphy and Tornadus-T now? They were both found to be overpowered in Rain, but now Rain from Drizzle only lasts 5 turns (if Politoed holds a Damp Rock, does that lenghten it?) they are nowhere near as effective.
     
  16. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    I can testify that Manaphy is still as effective in Rain as before. Even without Rain up, it's still extremely threatening. +3 Energy Ball OHKO's Rotom-W, while Ice Beam takes out Dragons and Grass-types. It sits at a very solid speed stat, and has excellent bulk even with no investment. Usually requires a sacrifice to weaken it so it can be finished of. I'd say ban it.

    Haven't seen Tornadus-T at all or used it myself, so can't comment on that.
     
  17. Marche Radiuju

    Marche Radiuju crush it casually

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    I see Tornadus-T all over the place and it's supremely frustrating. Not sure if I'd call it broken but on the other hand it might be my specific team set-up or the complete lack of controlling any of the other ridiculous set-up sweepers that makes it possible for me to deal with it. It checks Blaziken quite well, so there's that.
     
  18. Weiss

    Weiss Member

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    I think it's too early to see what effect pokemon like Thundurus-t and even Manaphy are having. With Gar, Ken, Sect, Aegislash and freakin' Deoxys out there I think we should first focus on these. It wasn't before a lot of really broken things left in gen 5 that we started seeing how broken certain other pokemon were, and how other fell of the radar a bit (Dragonite seemed way worse at the end of gen 5).

    As to those we were talking about statistics:

    1. This has always been a horrible gauge as Deoxys proved last gen.

    2. The overall statistics do not mirror at all what you see in the "higher" regions of the ladder most of the time, being 1200-X where X is the highest rank in my experience. If you had to believe the statistics pages last gen, you would have had to see Ape all over the place, whereas Gastrodon shouldn't appear at all. Those numbers were clearly reversed the higher you got up (though Gastro might not have been the best BW2 example).
     
  19. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    Why should we focus on those first? You don't really justify that, nor do you explain why (implying here) that the Pokemon you list that should be looked at now are more detrimental to the metagame than Pokemon like Thundurus and Manaphy.

    Anyway, I agree with you on usage statistics lacking relevance, especially this early in the generation. Although your comparison sort of contradicted itself, Pokemon like Infernape or Electevire getting high usage is a prime example of usage stats failing to accurately reflect the metagame and pokemons effectiveness.

    Also, I would like to bring up Tallonflame once more and state how I believe it is not broken. Although it is still very early in the metagame, it has a bunch of checks like Rotom-W, Tyranitar, Landorus-T, STEALTH ROCK, etc.

    With only base 80 or so attack, its speed / ability fail to fully compensate (plus, if I recall correctly, outside of boosting moves and stab, it doesn't get much coverage.)

    Everything taken into consideration, good Pokemon with a niche? Yes. Broken? Not in my opinion, in the current jumbled mess metagame.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2013
  20. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    Deoxys-N and Gengarite (Not Gengar, the Pokemon itself is still allowed) are now banned from XY OU.

    Oak EDIT: Didn't want to make a new post for this, but just letting you know that I'm gonna be back to looking into tiering this weekend. Should be seeing more discussion then.
     
  21. Jcpdragonx

    Jcpdragonx the business business

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    I've played about 30 games, so far I think Thunderus is still broken. Even with the new special tanks and special nerfs, its just so fast and strong. If its subs when you try to cripple it with status, its probably game. Blaziken is not as bad as I thought since every Blaziken I have seen is mega :confused: Still probably broken. Talonflame is okay but mid-low tier OU I think. Rotom-W is king in this metagame, its almost too good of a Pokemon but certainly not broken. Genesect is still overpowered and is just a pain to deal its 5 different sets.
     
  22. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Mhm, a agree with a lot of people so far, I'll list what I think are broken currently (my list may differ from yours, if it does, tell me why you think X isn't broken)

    Blaziken- SD+Speed Boost is still stupidly broken. Although I haven't seen it, it can now run baton pass (If I heard correctly) which is even stupider. Nice dual stab+coverage moves to hit anything that resists, I think Blaziken (Normal and Mega) should leave the scene.

    Genesect- It has its counters, but you need to counter all of its sets. Scarf, Band, Shift Gear, and Ebelt are the main ones that come to mind. He can carry a move for everything, but because he can only 4 moves, he won't have every single one. I'll talk about the set I usually see on Scarf since that is the most popular: U-Turn, Iron Head, Ice Beam, Flamethrower. Now, are there counters? Oh yeah. Things like Jellicent, Heatran, Infernape (and any other fire type tbh) and P2 also wall it. There are mons that can switch into his moves, but now we enter the prediction game, and that's never fun. For some reason, I hardly ran into this thing + I did have P2, so it wasn't a problem for me, but I think it could be nasty to some teams. Rotom-W and H do Good/Great against it as well and they're also pretty good (By pretty good I mean all hail based god Rotom).

    Thunderous- ......WHY :[ Why Twave :[ What did I ever do to you, why do you always make me fully paralyzed :[[. Electric types are even better now and can pretty much wall this thing, he has a LOT of counters/Checks, but priority twave is just NASTY. Electric types can be para'd, nor ground types, but every other type can be, and the feel when you get para'd the turn they twave or if they sub on a para, ugh. I think this thing should go for fairness, the team I ran had P2 again so I didn't have too many problems (whilst it was alive), but it had the ability to para everything under the sun.

    Those are what I think should go, now I'll talk about some controversial mons that I've seen pop up on discussions here, or dropped from ubers, and what I think about them:

    MegaKangaskhan (The Soccer Mom)- Great Coverage, 2 attacks which mean an SD in power up punch, stab +6 prio in fake out, and sucker punch are all nice. He needs crunch to reliably hit ghost types if he mega evolved, but pre mega, you won't want to switch into this.
    Talonflame- I'll talk about below
    Lucario- Debatable. Adaptabillity CC, Crunch for ghost types, SD and Espeed prio, it's great. But if it runs Crunch, it won't have BP for fairies. I'm on the edge on this one.
    Excadril-
    (not a mon but) Sticky Web-
    Landorus- Honestly, this thing didn't need to go. Was he strong? POWARFUL. But he was walled by so many things. Celebi, Rotom-W, [email protected], Although they weren't used much Uxie/Azelf/Mesprit ( I think Uxie/Azelf should have been used a bit tbh but oh well), Talonflame, Togekiss, .....Zard, Gyrados, Brobat, AMoonMoongus, Xatu, Bronzong, Cress, the list goes on. A lot of these are considered "Not good in OU" Such as BroBat/Moongus/Xatu/Azef or Uxie (I'd say Cress/Zong, but even though they are in UU most people agree they are good in OU, or at the very list viable) But this gen, most of them recieved a boon. Mainly Moon/Bat. You're probably looking at me like, "lol you on crack bro?" but I'm serious.
    Can grass types switch into spore? Yeah.
    Can they switch into sludge bomb? If they want to die.
    Amoongus is now the undisputed spore king, he can also smack fairies with sludge bomb.

    Crobat didn't really get much, but infiltrator got a nifty boost. You'll be behind your sub feeling safe, and get absolutely wrecked by this brave...bat. He was a unique typing, has access to defog now which gets rid of hazards, has access to taunt and roost as well as uturn and more. Is it good in OU? Not really since it lacks EQ/Earth power or any move to hit steel/rock types, but it's usable now. Also CB set can now run poison stab without it being considered useless o/.

    Uxie- Bulky, Stealth Rocks, Screens, status inducer, and uturner. That's all it has going for it, but it isn't bad tbh. It's set up fodder for some things, but do you want your sweeper switching into a twave? Screens are alright and rocks are great. Great? No. Viable? Yes.

    Azelf- Lead Rocks, Nasty Plot, Band, Scarf, Screens etc. This thing is great and deserves more usage, it's not just viable, it's good. If anyone disagrees, I'll post more about why I think it can be used in OU.

    Talonflame- I've seen a lot of people complaining about this, my response: Stop being bad. Look at it and you see the typing of Zard/Ho-Oh/Moltres, all of them are powerful. Look at this, it has brave bird over Zard and on top of that, its brave bird gets priority! OMG BROKEN BAN, right? No. He has no coverage. Zard/Ho-Oh have EQ, Moltres has hp grass. Talonflame? Does it even get steel wing lol. Rock types take a dump on this, Gliscor/Rotom-W/Lando-T/Hippo/Ttar/etc. 4x weak to rocks as well and average bulk at best, base 80 attack, all it has going for it is priority brave bird. It has its merits for sure, revenge killing Blaziken and other fighting types But I think it's only being used because of that.

    Xatu- Always been good thanks to magik bunce, Ragicok pls, not much to say. It has roost/uturn and other utility, but it isn't amazing. it's good, but not incredible. Just happens that it's usable and lando can't touch it, especially w/ the hidden power nerf.

    I probably missed some stuff, but just wanted to mention what I talked about
     
  23. Tox

    Tox Active Member

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    Heatran isn't amazing at dealing Talonflame unless you run Ancient power, +2 Talonflame does over half to Heatran with acrobatics and Heatran can't do much back.
    I think its questionably broken but I don't think it needs a suspect just yet as the current OU tier is plagued with cancer in the form of FOUR disgusting pokemon.

    Deoxys-N: All the reasons stated, too unpredictable, too fast, access to spikes and stealth rock with taunt if you really hate defog, but it can kill most pokemon with defog anyways and outspeed them all bar scarfers.

    Blaziken: Give this thing one free turn and it will literally destroy you, or bring it in on something its going to OHKO and grab a free speed boost and continue to wreck. Mixed sets can hit nearly everything for super effective or neutral damage and destroys late game. Swords dance literally can't be stopped unless it misses you. Blaziken is also the best baton passer in the game passing speed boosts and swords dance should it fear being KOed. To top it off, bBaziken can now evolve hitting a heightened level of absurd power making the games ubers look weak.

    Mega-Gengar: Too quick, too strong for a trapper mon. Outspeeds pretty much every pursuit user and OHKOes them (Don't bring up stuff like Spiritomb, please) With current Volt-Turn shenanigans it gets too many free kills a game.

    GENESECT: I'm struggling to see how no one has brought this up, Genesect gained some shiny new toys this gen in the form of Shift Gear and Extreme Speed as well as choice scarf being as dominant as ever, I don't think people are appreciating Genesect's dominance and how broken it actually is as its over shadowed by Gengar as the two go hand in hand. Seriously over 90% of ladder teams employ Genesect. Yes, it has checks and ONE surefire counter in the form of Heatran. But in all honesty genesect feels like a staple for a good OU team, Download boosted Choice Scarf sets hit nearly as hard as Scizor with scary speed. Genesect is the best scout and revenge killer in the game. It's place in OU seriously needs reviewing.
     
  24. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    ^Two of the Pokemon you mentioned recently got banned^

    Blaziken should just be banned and I personally don't see why it hasn't been yet seeing that MegaGar and Deo-N were just auto-banned.

    Genesect I could see a vote, but I predict the same results as last time...

    Also, can people stop complaining about Talonflame? You might as well be saying Weavile is just as overpowered because they share very common similarities.
     
  25. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    First off, Heatran is a pretty good answer to Talonflame. Not only did Talonflame get screwed over with the loss of Flying gem, but it isn't getting +2 that easily, can still get killed/phased/etc. easily, and it is good, but not game breaking because it isn't going to be frequently sweeping with the lack of support moves, flying gem, and survivability.

    Secondly, try reading up - Mega Gengar and Deoxys-N were banned already - always a good idea to read the previous posts before posting in suspect threads. (Or at least it is, imo.)

    Third of all, I agree with you that Genesect is powerful, but I think saying that it is a staple on good teams is a bit of an overestimation. Sure, the scarfed set is great (arguably overpowering with the amount of effort it takes to check it when you don't have Heatran), especially the physical one with iron head to smash fairies and such, but it is still as frail as usual and unable to break through a few Pokemon here and there - especially if you take picking the right move into consideration, but we will leave prediction out of this as it is a two way street. After using it myself a good dozen times, I am going to say it is borderline broken just for the same reasons as it was last generation - such a versatile offensive Pokemon with a great scarf set, sweeping set, etc. I don't think it is as bad as it was in BW, but it's comparable. Regardless, still too early to make any major decisions bar the somewhat obvious ones made in regard to Deo-N and Mega-Gengar.
     
  26. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    Brave Bird hits three times harder than Ice Shard. Even when taking base stats into account that's a huge difference. Not to mention that Weavile's defensive typing is garbage compared to Talonflame's. Talonflame at least switches in freely on U-turns and Ground Moves and has useful Grass, Fighting and Fire resistances. Also has Priority Roost and U-turn in its movepool. All those things make Talonflame a very flexible pokemon, unlike Weavile who can't even switch in on anything barring Psychic moves.

    Again, the main reason people complain about Talonflame is that a LOT of pokemon flatout die to Brave Bird despite them outspeeding or having priority. Defense wise Talonflame isn't very bulky, but it forces a lot of pokes out. That's what many people seem to like to forget. It can get to +2 easily given the opportunity (there's plenty of them, as again it forces out so many mons and some pokes can't touch Talonflame, like Ferrothorn). It puts way too much pressure on teams, which is why I think it should be suspected and possibly test banned.
     
  27. Tyki

    Tyki Change

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    Already spoke about why Talonflame isn't broken in other thread, but here I go again...

    tl;dr don't ban Talonflame.
     
  28. Laurel

    Laurel Well-Known Member

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    There are way more stuff I'd consider banning before Talonflame... Personally, I think we shouldn't ban anything for at least a month till everyone decides what they think is good, and at that point a vote would be good.

    Some pokemon that raise concerns...

    Mega Gengar, Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Mawile, Mega Blaziken, Manaphy, Deoxys (all forms but D because with Defog it kind of sucks)

    I think these are the strongest pokemon. Things like Thundurus, Genesect, and Excadrill can be reexamined after IMO, but are not in the same category of broken as these o.o
     
  29. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Kangaskhanite, Blaziken and Genesect should be the next things to focus on imo, Manaphy and Excadrill haven't appeared to be broken with the weather nerfs, Thundurus is still very good and possibly broken, however it's been nerfed quite a bit now that it can't paralyse Electric types. I can't see Deo-S or Deo-D being broken with Defog buff, but I haven't tested either yet.
     
  30. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    Blaziken needs to go and Genesect should be tested. Otherwise, the tier looks fine. I've heard things about Manaphy, but I can't say for sure anything about it with no experience.

    Excadrill is fine this gen. If anything, it can make itself a home now in OU because it's more of a supporter rather than a broken sweeper. As long as the permaweather is locked down, Excadrill can stay in OU.

    Like Manaphy, haven't seen enough Thundurus-I to make a decision...

    I really want to know how MegaKahn is broken in OU! Not to act rude, but I seriously don't understand why it's so hated (I already get the Double-Up Punch, but I need more :x).

    Abstaining on Deoxys-D/S.
     
  31. Pridy

    Pridy Swerve.

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    The reason why megakang could be considered broken is because it has
    A. A very good bulk for a physical sweeper, It can almost always tank a hit and set up considering that it only has one weakness.
    B. It's combination of Base 100 Speed and Sucker Punch make it very hard to revenge kill: After +2, Return I can barely think of any walls except skarmory (who is pretty mediocre in the current metagame) and I guess Jellicent (Even less viable) that want to take return, and with sucker punch it easily picks off faster and frailer pokemon (ohkos genesect at +2 with sucker punch after rocks for example
     
  32. MewtwoHidden

    MewtwoHidden My Hax Makes Me Famous

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    Terrakion is by far the best check to Kangaskhan, any set works; Choice Band, Choice Scarf, etc. Kangaskhan can't outspeed Terrakion and if it decided to Sucker Punch then Terrakion just got +2 Attack and wouldn't take all that much damage. The only way Kangaskhan could win is if you sent it in for some reason without sacking something first and your opponent predicted it and went for Power-Up Punch. Ferrothorn is pretty good for a situation check due to Leech Seed and Iron Barbs wearing Kangaskhan down while it can live for a little bit due to Protect stalling.
    I'm more interested with Mega Lucario at the moment. I only see Very Few If Any counters to it since at +2 a combination of Close Combat and Bullet Punch takes down even Dragonite even if Stealth Rocks aren't up I've seen a few people on server say that Aegislash "beats it", but I can assure you that with a little bit of prediction Lucario will come out on top every time. A simple combination of
    Swords Dance-Swords Dance-Crunch will beat most Aegislash players since they assume that Lucario can't hurt them so they'll try to set-up then do the painfully obvious King's Shield while you can set-up again and finish them off with Crunch. Lucario can run either Jolly or Adamant; I prefer Adamant at the moment since there aren't many Gengar, Latias, or Latios in OU at the moment. Here is what I could think of in several minutes of thinking

    Counters at +2- Some Scarfers can't even check it if they are weak to Bullet Punch, which hits almost as hard as Scizor's Bullet Punch last Gen.
    Scarfed Landorus-T- Counter, except for the rare set with Ice Punch
    uh... that's about it

    Counters at +0
    Scarfed Landorus-T- Same as before, except it does even better
    Dragonite*- Survives a Close Combat + Bullet Punch Narrowly, and can kill with Earthquake
    Sabelye- Depends on Will-O-Wisp hitting and the field not being covered in hazards


    *before stealth rocks
     
  33. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Delta Stream

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    Some Mega Lucario checks and counters

    Mega Venusaur - Resists Fighting STAB and takes physical hits easy, and can put Lucario to sleep
    Skarmory - can only phaze but w/e Lucario can't do much to it
    Other Prankster users - Will-O-Wisp or T-Wave
    Talonflame - OHKOs with Flare Blitz - takes on both STABs


    CB Azumarill can take a predicted Bullet Punch and KO back with Aqua Jet. Also Mega Lucario is easy to revenge so yeah
    Also Mega Lucario doesnt set up easily due to its fraility so play smart and it shouldn't be a problem
     
  34. Jcpdragonx

    Jcpdragonx the business business

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    It also has a special set. Venusaur can counter it but can't do much back.
     
  35. .Rawr!

    .Rawr! c(°3°)כ

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    U are not supposed to let MegaKan set-up. When u see him, just switch to Trevenant, Jellicent, Sableye, Cofagrigus or Dusknoir and start the stall (leech seed for Trevenant, W-o-w or Toxic for da others).

    About MegaLucario, if my cals are not wrong, it have the same damage output than Life Orb Lucario, the only thing gained is the speed, so like you said, the same mons which countered LO lucario counter now the mega one too. (btw he is frail)

    PD: BAN BLAZIKEN NAOOO! and genesect for test
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2013
  36. Subject 18

    Subject 18 New Member

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    Skarmory is really shaky to Mega Lucario. Saying Lucario can't do much to it is entirely false as a an unboosted Jolly Close Combat does 48.64 - 57.65% meaning its a guaranteed 2HKO after SR. While a +2 Lucario does 96.69 - 114.11%. I'm not sure where you getting "it can't do much to it" from. Not even to mention the Special Lucario also blows right through it as well.

    Personally I say your best bet to counter Mega Lucario is RestTalk Gyarados since it can handle both the Physical, Special, or even Agility sets better just about any Pokemon right not. Talonflame is shaky since Extreme Speed on Lucario isn't all that bad an option.

    Also CB Azumarill doesn't OHKO Lucario with Aqua Jet:
    252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 133-157 (47.16 - 55.67%) -- 94.14% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    and after the CC defense drop:
    252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 199-235 (70.56 - 83.33%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
     
  37. Hannah

    Hannah Come a little closer

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    I'd like to bring up Mega Blaziken and Blaziken for suspect discussion. This generation might've included a bunch of threats to try and stop the chicken but I believe it is too powerful for the tier. While I do agree that Talonflame is a great revenge killer, Blaziken just outpowers whatever is in front of it and has the capacity to Baton Pass its boosts if a counter arrives.

    Blaziken vs Talonflame
    252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 190-224 (63.97 - 75.42%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 175-207 (58.92 - 69.69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Meaning Talonflame can't switch in either of Blaziken's moves if SR is up, or is forced to roost off next turn assuming rocks aren't up.

    This means that Talonflame can only revenge kill Blaziken or catch him at as the last Pokemon to actually take him out.

    The same goes for Azumarill


    Blaziken vs Azumarill
    252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 172-203 (42.57 - 50.24%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    They do make decent revenge killers, yes, but that's not exactly a feat. Revenge killing implies you have to sacrifice a Pokemon just in order to force it out or KO it. I'm not saying that Blaziken will be predicting all hits on Azumarill with HJK over Flare Blitz, but considering majority of the Azumarill are running Choice Band, it's still another shaky check.

    Now that Baton pass is legal, this just further amplifies Blaziken's potential. It can run Baton pass to pass on speed and momentum when counters do come in (Jellicent, Slowbro, other general bulky Pokemon) to something that can take them out that has +1-2 on it.

    I think Blaziken is too overpowered in the tier and should be suspected.

    ~

    My take on other threats..

    Talonflame: While I do agree that Talonflame is a great Pokemon, it simply isn't broken. It has a lot of checks and counters, those that a lot of people haven't dug into yet and even then, it's finding itself having a hard time sweeping in OU with the abundance of Rotom-W, Tyranitar and Landorus-T(although a shaky check). Once the tiers settle, it'll most likely be in OU but not as high on usage as it is now.

    Aegislash:The defensive typing was all hype but with the steel "nerf" there's just too many things in OU that can take it on. A lot of offensive Ground types have spouted and which give it a difficult time, and with Scald and Will-o-wisp (now with boosted accuracy) more common than ever, it'll fit in OU but is in no means broken. The mixed special set is best >:O

    Genesect: Right now I'm on the fence with Genesect. The scarf sets are the same as it was before, a huge threat yes. Also people should stop saying that Genesect got boosted this gen because it can hit Fairy types for SE. Um, hello? Steel just lost its Dark/Ghost resist. That gives Genesect a much harder time switching in than before. I've seen little of the Special Rock Polish sets, but all the same things wall it. The Shift Gear sets I've seen little of, but running a Hasty nature in OU right now makes it prone to a lot of things, and yeah Heatran also exists! It might have a multitude of sets it can run, but all of them have their corresponding checks and counters, and with a lot of new things to switch in OU, you don't necessarily have to be swept to actually figure out which one it has.

    Mega Kangaskhan: It has four moveslot syndrome, that pretty much sums up my experience with Mega Kanga. Running one coverage move over the other leaves you walled by a vast majority. I find that people think its broken because they don't know how to play around it or just let it setup all over them.

    Manaphy: I've seen little of this thing around, but now that there's no permanent rain I think it can stay in OU. The thing with Manaphy is, you either run too much Bulk that you can't break through walls (even at +3) or run too much on offenses that setting up the Tail Glow will be too difficult to pull off while remaining healthy. People do run Damp Rock Toed with it, but even then, you can't keep the rain going forever and there are other Pokemon that can make due with the instant power off the bat.

    Tornadus-T : Not going to ubers any time soon, hell, might even drop to UU because Hurricane and Drizzle got nerfed. That's just speculation from me, but things like Greninja and Noivern just accomplish so much more while outspeeding it that it seems less appealing. Yes regenerator is an amazing ability but everything in OU just hits so damn hard that the bird just won't be able to take hits like it used to.

    Thundurus-I: Electric types got boosted, it goes both ways for it really. Rotom-W, Lanturn (which I use a lot so shut up), Celebi, Gastrodon, Quagsire still exist. It depends on the first wave of suspect/bans to see if it'll actually be as big of threat.

    Landorus-I: Similar to above, but personally I do think that it's more manageable now. Like I said, it depends on the future string of usage and bans to see if it'll be the top tier threat. It plays a great role in OU now but Landorus-T just seems more appealing because Intimidate and having the ability to run Bulky sets while hitting hard is just too hard to give up.


     
  38. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    Except Mega Lucario has freaking Adaptability which means it can freely use Bullet Punch over Extremespeed and Close Combat hurts so much even without a SD. Not to mention that it now outspeeds base 100s and base 110s, removing a whole list of possible revenge killers. Lucario was a big threat without a Mega Evolution, but I think this pushed it over the edge. Did I mention it can go special as well with Nasty Plot, Adaptability Flash Cannon, Vacuum Wave and Shadow Ball? You never know for sure which set it will run because both are equally good. Definitely worthy of a suspect.
     
  39. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Delta Stream

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    ok about Mega Lucario - apparently what I said about Skarmory was wrong so sorry bout that :(

    However, Mega Venusaur commonly runs EQ, which gets rid of Lucario so yeah it's still a good check

    Otherwise, all my points stay the same I don't believe Mega Lucario is broken

    Talonflame is definitely not broken for more or less the same reason as Lucario - its too frail. It has a hard time setting up and revenges really well, but its other capabilities are limited. Even then, it still has a list of checks and counters such as Azumarill and others I don't feel like thinking up atm
     
  40. Raiza

    Raiza Member

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    Talonflame isnt broken, x4 weak to rocks,flying gem not usable so the acrobatics set is rip,with life orb it dies by recoil,it's frail,it has so many counters and revengekillers.

    Mega venusaur stalls like a boss

    Mega-Lucario broken?nah but im not sure,normal lucario with life orb does more damage with a bit of recoil and it isnt too broken.
     
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