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XY OU Potential Suspects Thread

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Discussion' started by Halsey, Nov 4, 2013.

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  1. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    Who cares if we follow in Smogon's footsteps if it is the best solution to nerfing baton pass? Geopass smeargle is really really shaky lol, firstly you lack sash and even then its not fast enough to pull off spore/dark void the majority of the time. Tbh if the TLs ever do intend to nerf Baton Pass, they definitely will have to settle with a complex ban, although they will try to keep it as un-complex as possible just so that it is easier to understand.

    Tbh I've found that Baton Pass isn't a simple gimmick or strategy anymore, it has become more of a playstyle. Whenever a check or counter to BP is brought up, BP users will always invent new ways or modify pokemon to beat them, which is why I say it is more of a playstyle. For example, more users are starting to run Pixilate Hyper Voice Sylveon to beat Mega Gyarados, and Charge Zapdos, simply because it beats Birdspam, and it also boosting the special defense of the chain. Much like other playstyles such as Sand Offense, you either have a counter to it or you simply flat-out lose. This is also the case with BP. You either have a Taunt user (which imo every team should pack at least one) or you better be able to hit the chain so hard they will not be able to pass away the boosts. Both are common in the tier, the former has stuff like Prankster Thundurus, Mega Gyarados DD+Taunt, Stallbreaking Gengar etc and the latter has powerful wallbreakers such as Mega Medicham and CM Mega Gardevoir that can break BP with its incredible power. The thing that BP differenciates itself from other playstyles is that it requires extremely specific counters in order to beat it, and even then they can't just be slapped on a team and expected to do wonders. By preparing your team to efficiently counter Baton Pass, you lose out on your ability to be routinely successful against other playstyles (this also applies to both Deoxys formes, but I'll leave this out for another post) If you don't run a specific counter for BP, you will automatically lose to BP even if you are significantly more skilled than the opposing player which is what detracts the skill needed in this game since you have 0 chance of winning unless the BP user does something ridiculously stupid like hard switch the pokemon after accumulating boosts instead of Baton Passing it off. While it is impossible for the majority of teams to beat BP because they lack specific counters, the reverse doesn't hold the same. BP teams can actually beat its counters such as Baton Passing on the switch where your opponent brings Thundurus in to Sylveon/Espeon and Hyper Voice/Stored power away respectively, or again Baton Passing away to Sylveon right before Mega Gyarados goes for Taunt and you can again Hyper Voice away. Also if you are just using 1 pokemon to "counter" BP, one mispredict causes you to lose incredible momentum, and losing momentum vs a BP user means you lose the game, since they can continue boosting. There is also this fact where BP is also a scouting move and if you switch on the turn the BP user uses BP, you just got scouted and lost momentum and BP can bring in the appropriate pokemon to deal with the pokemon you just brought in, and using that free turn it can set-up a Substitute (which prevents it from being hit by unfortunate crits) or continue boosting, both of which are not ideal for the opponent. What makes BP even more potent is that your walls suddenly just became set-up fodder, your choiced pokemon only needs to be scouted by Substitute and they BP to a pokemon that resists the move or deals with the pokemon well and it suddenly turns it into set-up fodder. Going back to comparing BP to other playstyles such as Sand Offense, you have 6 pokemon that can deal with Sand Offense with smart switches or foddering a pokemon, but vs BP if you only have 1 counter to it, you only have 1 pokemon that can stop the entire team from destroying your entire team and the rest of the 5 are likely set-up bait. I can't hard switch or double switch just to gain a better position against my opponent. It completely destroys the exact point why we are playing a skill-based game when a no skill playstyle has the potential to beat every other playstyle. Honestly it should be nerfed such that only 1 pokemon can run BP on a team.

    tl;dr BP is gay, it loses the aspect of a skilled-based game. Cancerous shit.

    even NU is waiting for the ban now
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2014
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  2. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    Baton Pass + Stored Power ban sounds fine guys but I honestly think BPass+Boosting Move is really really nice. QuickPass, SmashPass, QuiverPass, get these shits out. I know a lot of ppl will disagree with this cuz boostpass exist till ages and never be broken but there aren't so many good mons as now (megamawile megacharizard megapinsir megagardevoir megagarchomp etc). Phazing is real yeah but whatever... BPass + Stored Power is fine at least.

    About Aegislash: guys if the man goes drunk we shouldn't get drunk too, if you know what I mean. I don't think Aegislash is "broken". It's surely a great Pokèmon and a centralizer of metagame but do you really think a metagame without it should be better? We just gotta look around and I guess not. Good stats, bad stabs (80 bp), king's shield creates "50/50" just any other protect or competitive situation e.g. terrakion vs tyranitar -> would terrakion sub or just attack? I gotta sac ttar o put my gengar? every situation like this can cost a mon in order to prevent a stat-up sweeping but we obviously don't ban the stat-up thing if it's not broken. Not ban

    Mega Char X: the DD 3atks jolly is a legend lol I've never seen it and anyway it sucks. In most of cases, Char X is DD Roost Bulky, which is p walled by Heatran and Quagsire, checked by Tyranitar, Azumarill, Gliscor, Landorus-T, also ScarfChomp is real and Rush Excadrill is a good way to deal with. Jolly Zard is fukin ridicolous cuz it can't kill things that Adamant can, and he always lose to Quagsire, Outrage tho. Not ban imo

    Mega Mawile: this thing is a cannon yeah. It's not unstoppable ok, and FocusPuncher is not so common.. ok it can kill Heatran but it will lose 85% of every other matchup so it's worthy? Fire Fang/Iron Head/Knock Off are always better moves imo. Also FPunch forces to Sub and Mawile is not as bulky, every special move can do big damages on it (TBolt Latios on the switchin fucks SubPuncher forever as example). Anyway, the problem is that there isn't a safe switch on this thing. Never. +2 SuckerPunch can kill too many things and it can be faster enough to outspeed many fat things. At least, the most important thing: is Mawile necessary for the metagame? Does it help in some way other mons to be not broken as shit? I don't think so, it's just a bulky sweeper that does not help the meta to be healthy so a suspect should be fine for it.

    Deoxys-D: Meh. I honestly think all Deoxys should go, that thing is too much bulky and it ensures an hazard set + possible phazing (Red Card). Also it got things like Taunt/TWave/MCoat, and u can't do anything to get it off bar attacking and it exposes u to setting/status etc. Plus it can run a rare stalling set (recover toxic taunt seismictoss or sub etc) that can be very dangerous for offense and stalls. Anyway I'm pretty indifferent about it, tho I think a ban isn't bad.

    Thundurus: Ooook Prankster TWave is crap, as Taunt, Plot, Sub. Yeah. But this thing is too much useful. It can run mixed sets yeah it can get off some of its counters (Chansey? KnockOff+Superpower -> Amoonguss/Saur? Psychic/HP Flying/Fly -> Latwins? KnockOff -> Quagsire? GrassKnot) but it can definitely not run all of these once. Scouting is p easy and often intuitable from preview. It is p frail tho. Also it's a perfect check of many things like Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Landorus. It's one of the few rkillers of Keldeo. It "balances" the metagame in some way. I can't imagine a metagame without it and those things alive, they should be too much dangerous tho they're not banworthy themselves. Idk honestly, I think I prefer it OU.

    ps Ban Mega Salamence pls
     
  3. Lameflame

    Lameflame Active Member

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    Baton Pass: I really have nothing to add about Baton Pass, eventually it won't be around so at this point it's just a matter of saying the words "Baton Pass" over and over until another suspect thread pops up. Complex ban, 3 pokes.

    Charizard X: What is the relevant difference, strictly in terms of unpredictability, between Mega Lucario and Charizard X/Y? I'm comparing those two specifically because not only can both pokemon run sets/forms that have different checks, but if you guess the wrong set/form, your would-be check gets annihilated. E.g. Quagsire hard-checks ZardX, but is OHKOd to ZardY solarbeam ... Chansey checks ZardY but generally loses to ZardX. For all the (bogus) talk about things like Aegislash and Mega Mawile being unpredictable, everyone's new favorite buzzword, the only way to reliably guess which Zard you're facing is by assessing the opponent's team and skill level. IMO that is just not sufficient. I have actually seen about a half dozen people nickname their Charizard "X" or "Y" to confuse the opponent, which actually works despite how shitty this argument sounds. Obviously once it has mega evo'd the discussion about unpredictability ends and you can talk about which sets it likes to run, what checks they have, their effect on OU meta etc., but the biggest battle facing Charizard is in guessing which one it is and sending out the appropriate check.

    Might add more on MMawile, Thundurus and Aegislash later if it looks like people actually want a suspect, but none of them are ban-worthy (maybe mawile suspect worthy) so I'll pass for now.
     
  4. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    @Lameflame usually Char Y requires different support than Char X, so if you see Pursuit threats together with Char is should be Y cuz Latwins are counters, when Char X requires to take off Heatran, Quag, Azuma etc and it got really different supporting, so the preview is enough most of the times

    Also, @Bpass: 3 mon w/BPass are enough to give cancer and have enough matchup to smash every team that cannot take off bpass chains in general. Scolipede + Geomancy/CottonGuard Smeargle are enough to pass to Espeon and let it sweep. Also every other recipient should be cancer in this way. I honestly think BPass + Stored Power complex ban is enough. If PO doesn't want to do complex bans (Why not? It's not a question to "adapt to Smogon", I seriously hope PO will never adapt to Smogon, but it's a more practicable option to get off bp chains without banning a move that isn't broken itself bar that situation) then just ban BPass but that's not the right way imo. Or at least reduce to 1 BP user yeah.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2014
  5. axelwolf

    axelwolf New Member

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    The issue with BP chains has always been Scolipede. The extremely reliable speed and defense boosts is provides are what pushes BP chains beyond the line.
    If anything that's what should be suspected.
    If the Deoxys formes get suspected/banned because they make HO too strong, then it only makes sense that Scolipede should get the same treatment if it makes BP too strong.

    Also, Aegislash seriously needs more discussion. And not because Smogon banned it, but because the 50/50 scenarios (especially with that annoying SubToxic set) are starting to get out of control.
     
  6. Rage.

    Rage. [Hero] and [LGI]

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    [Hero]Zapdos.
    50-50s aren't a solid argument. Every Sucker Puncher creates/faces 50-50s. Every team with a defiant user vs Zapdos/Latios faces and creates 50-50s. Will the opposing Keldeo be scarfed after switching on my Greninja? Will the Zard-X be SD+Wind or Dragon Dance? Will the opponent switch ScarfChomp or Heatran into my Manectric? Can I try to get 3 DDs on Nite to OHKO with Espeed or will he outright switch to Mamoswine? Will he switch Chansey or Megasaur into Keldeo? 50-50s are everywhere.

    >especially with that annoying subtoxic set
    I'm tired of arguing against the statement that Aegislash's unpredictability and uncounterability makes it broken. It's slow even with max speed. 2HKOing everything isn't unhealthy for the metagame, just the exact opposite. Good wallbreakers belong into the metagame. The ability to get past its counters isn't an argument for brokenness. Against offensive teams Aegi is the best with balloon. Otherwise it can't check as many threats that run EQ coverage. SubToxic just doesn't get enough subs. Maybe on choice-locked dragons, keldeo and lati. They all are played more carefully facing Aegi if nothing can take shadow balls. SubToxic isn't an argument on brokenness. That like saying ZardX is broken because of possible Outrage against Quagsire and Thunderpunch for Azumarill. Bisharp is now broken because it can have Grass Knot for Quagsire. Ow8 i was kidding they aren't. Stating that getting past its checks is broken is not a good argument, I wonder why so many people on smogon believed it and banwagoned. Thats mainly a step in the direction what gives stall a harder time is broken and should be banned. Of course PO doesn't face this problem yet with Deo-D and Aegi in OU, please keep them don't make a suspect because banwagons are overpowered. Seriously. "Omygosh deod/aegi annoys me it should go!!!!" is what they think and argue for the ban. The pro-ban side seems having more solid argument but in general anti-ban is right. They don't see the healthy effect for the metagame, DeoD is just less seen atm because Deo-S is OU. However I don't think that the PO players will think like the smogon players and ban any mon that is a rather big threat, however they will never be broken.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2014
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  7. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    Baton Pass opinions/rant *OU Leaders please read*
    I'd like to point two things out with the Baton Pass arguments:

    One)
    This is not an attack or insult to anyone who had the idea, but banning a Pokemon/move in conjunction with Baton Pass is solving the problem the worst way possible. I agree it removes a lot of the stress that the bs Baton Pass chains cause, but it doesn't solve the problem; it just prolongs it.

    For example, Scolipede is a prime reason why Baton Pass chains are successful. So, the big theory is if Scolipede is banned, Baton Pass gets nerfed. This isn't a bad theory, but it won't solve anything. If Scolipede is banned, people would just opt Ninjask instead, which is admittedly worse, does gets the exact same job done. Also, there are other big Baton Passers like Vaporeon, Scizor, Gliscor, and Mew to name a few. Even if you got rid of the ignition, you still don't kill the engine.

    Banning Espeon is the wrong move. Yes, it allows Baton Pass to be exceptionally successful by negating Taunt and phazing, but if that's the only reason for its ban, it shouldn't be banned. It's like banning a NU Pokemon to Ubers because it was super-broken in an OU team that used others to make it good. Point being: Espeon does other things fine, so why ban it for just one reason?

    Stored Power is a strange argument. I will agree Baton Pass makes it too powerful, but the only two Pokemon with Baton Pass and Stored Power that use it well I can think of are Espeon and Mr. Mime, ignoring recipients like Sigilyph, Clefable, etc. Now, it is possible to do a complex ban on BP + Stored Power, but:
    • If Baton Pass gets limited already, there's no point to do the complex ban anymore
    • It's a reason BP is so good, but not the absolute reason. There are a ton other reasons why people hate BP besides Stored Power, so doing that won't solve much in the end. Again, kill the problem rather than limit it.

    So, would banning Scolipede nerf Baton Passing? Definitely. Would banning Espeon? Absolutely. Stored Power? Probably.

    But, will either of those kill the entire problem once and for all?

    To be honest, even if you banned all three of them, it still wouldn't. The overall problem still isn't resolved.



    Which brings me to Two)
    I'm getting very VERY annoyed that none of the tier leaders gave me or anyone else in fact a valid, no, any reason why limiting the amount of Baton Passers on any team is not being done.

    Don't give me the "be patient we're working on it" excuse to me, it's been MONTHS since I as well as others pushed the idea as well as the amount of time was given to put the plan in motion. During that time, instead of doing the logical steps, we got more revolution, no discussion, and a Suspect about banning Baton Pass as a whole to Ubers (just..........why?). The fact that it's still "ongoing" baffles me seeing that of all of the possible options we have, it is easily the best one we can do.

    Don't say we can't follow Smogon, I posted the idea before they set it into motion. Don't even think about complex ban being too hard because one, this one isn't, and two, this kind of situation is the reason complex bans exist, so use it!

    I know I'm being angry, but come on, it's been months and it seems like you're completely ignoring the problem as well as the solution! If you have a reason why it's taking so long, tell me, I'm all ears. If you have doubts, I'll advocate. Just for the love of god stop keeping this a secret and not even explaining the current situation other than "we're working on it" because all it looks like is you're stalling now!

    I'm not trying to attack any of the leaders/programmers/whatever in this rant, but please, I'm asking nicely for the last time, why can't just limit the amount of Baton Passers on any given team? It's not that nothing's been done about it that bothers me, it's that no one has bothered to explain why nothing's being done about it.

    Please, respond, reply, PM, just TELL ME why we can't do this and I'll calm down!!

    EDIT: Or, I could just not know that Baton Pass has been reopened again, because I'm a genius like that! :B

    Opinions about others discussed
    Charizard-X: The real problem with Charizard-X isn't Charizard-X itself; it's that fighting against Charizard as a whole is literally flipping a coin. Heads, you get Zard-X, a very bulky setup sweeper that can murder a good portion of the tier unless you bring up a good check. Tails, you get Zard-Y, which is the complete opposite of X and shares just as opposite counters.

    Okay, so let's say the guessing game is off for this one, how does Charizard-X fare in this metagame? Is it, by itself without any outside support, broken in OU?

    In all honesty, I'd say not really. We've had Dragon Dancers in the past, either of which stupidly strong (DPP Salamence, who was banned very late) or very hard to defeat (fuck you, Dragonite!). All of them were either banned really late or not banned at all. Outside of Will-o-Wisp, I see no real difference between Zard-X and the other big Dragons we had in OU previously. In fact, I'd say Zard-X is a watered down fusion of them. It's bulky, but not naturally. It's strong, but can't split investment easily. And finally, the weaknesses it has are jarring. Stealth Rock weakness sucks, but add to it a weakness to EQ, opposing Dragons, and Fairy alongside a neutral resistance to Water, Ice, Fighting, Flying, Ghost, and Dark? Regardless of bulk, even with two x4 resistances (Fire and Grass), that's kind of sad for this generation.

    What I'm getting at is Zard-X on its own isn't broken. If it were to be suspected (which I wouldn't complain about), the real issue is the fact that it could really be Zard-Y, which screws over everything if chosen wrong.


    Aegislash: First off, the 50-50 argument is bullshit. If that were a reason to ban a Pokemon, then 1/3 of all of the available Pokemon in OU and tiers below would be banned. Stop it.

    Second off, I don't see why people are having so much trouble with it, I don't see why it should be banned, I don't see why Smogon banned it, I just don't get what the problem is. The "pseudo-720 base" argument holds no front, its unpredictability only goes so far, and 50/150/150 defenses with the only real support moves being King's Shield and Toxic doesn't make it an impossibly defensive Pokemon. Even with 150 Base Attack, Shadow Sneak is weak even with a SD sometimes. King's Shield is stupid, but very easy to go around (starts a prediction war, oh no that's sooooooo broken). It's a Pokemon that fishes for boosts and King's Shield in order to be a win condition, otherwise it's just another hurdle.

    Please, try to prove me wrong about Aegislash. Until then, I still can't understand why it's considered broken.


    Mega-Mawile: Just going to say right now I saw the current discussion on Smogon with this and I was cringing half of the time. The only reason they had for every other post was "ZOMG 2 STRONF BAN NAOW," and I was sitting by the screen asking "Yeah, and?" to all of them. Very few mentioned its decent bulk, one-time Intimidate, and fucking great typing. You know what they based most of their arguments off?

    Giant attack, Sucker Punch, and Swords Dance.

    That's it. Nothing on metagame or any other detail. Just stats and KOs.

    Makes you wonder why they haven't banned Rampardos yet, huh?

    So okay, maybe it is broken, but until I see valid reasons other than huge attack and Sucker Punch (which doesn't win any argument whatsoever), all I keep hearing is "too strong, op, ban now," which isn't close to a valid reason. This is not that no one has mentioned any yet, it's that too many look the wrong way.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2014
  8. Rage.

    Rage. [Hero] and [LGI]

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    [Hero]Zapdos.
  9. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Do we have any plans for suspecting Aegislash yet? I haven't really bothered reading the last handful of pages so I could be rehashing, but I really do think it's too much for OU. It's utter easy mode, difficult to play around or predict and almost impossible to switch in on. There's basically no way of playing around Sub Aegi if it manages to force a switch (which is easy to do for Aegi) and then there's the like 4 other sets all with variants that all are stupid good. And SD Aegi has nothing to do with this, I breathe a sigh of relief every time Aegi is SD.

    Also rehashing my argument about Charizard X suspect because it's still ridiculous etc.
     
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  10. Rage.

    Rage. [Hero] and [LGI]

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    [Hero]Zapdos.
    Aegi isnt op, while sball has a good output against many meta mons, many of these have attacks strong enough to threaten it. sub aegi isnt impossible to play around aswell. eq, bisharp, fire blast or other fire which is special aka heatran, landorus among others laugh at sub aegi and at kings in general. considering sub won't run ssneak, it won't be able to use the advantageous-at-killing ballsneak combo (boosted by spooky/lo or being buffed defensively by balloon both won't be possible for sub aegi) meaning you will only have to take a weak shadow ball unable to ohko anything neutral or lower, and it is slow af makes it manageable easily if you can consistently break the sub (again, more than enough mons can do so). Zardx isnt ridiculous at all imo. Stall can have quag and get rapped by outrage, however the zardx player will consider twice running outrage when aegi/mawile/tran/azu are things. (i use an outrage zardx too in a team, and have experience w/ it being not really consistent) hippo landyt azu and def glis are great checks aswell, and revengers like scarfchomp/terrak are good things in the meta too. for sure its quite threatening but also somewhat easy to prepare for so i don't think its enough for a suspect. were not smo/banwa/gon :P
     
  11. DarkDiglett

    DarkDiglett free pridy

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    can we just ban m maw / zard-x / thundy-i(?) / aegi / deo forms / bpass(nerf?) to speed this up since they will prob be banned anyway
     
  12. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    I think Mega Mawile deserves a suspect discussion at least. It hits like a truck and its safe to say that there are no switch-ins (heatran is not a counter on the SubPunch set, even Brick Break does 76-90% to max HP max SpDef Heatran). Revenge killing it easily is also not an option, as a +2 Sucker Punch OHKOes almost everything that doesn't resist it. Add to that its coverage moves in Fire fang/Knock off and awesome STAB combo in Play Rough/Iron Head ; having such an overpowered mon might be unhealthy for the current meta.
     
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  13. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    Can we just stop copying Smogon? Suspect them, maybe, but let the community speak about them I'm pretty sure many ppl is against certain bans, especially Aegis/CharX/Thund
     
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  14. Hector's Planet

    Hector's Planet Member

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    In my opinion, Aegislash, Mawilite, and Charizardite X should be suspected. Aegislash is broken because it has no counters, and in order to scout the set, sometimes you have to sack a pokemon.
    These are all the Aegislash sets:

    1)
    Aegislash (F) @ Spooky Plate/Shuca Berry/Air Baloon/Life Orb
    Trait: Stance Change
    EVs: 16 Atk / 240 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Hasty Nature (+Spd, -Def)
    - King's Shield
    - Sacred Sword
    - Shadow Ball
    - Shadow Sneak/Iron Head

    This Aegislash can bate in adamant bisharp, and proceed to KO it with sacred sword. It also helps with nabbing kills on pokemon like Heatran and Rotom-w late-game.

    2)
    Aegislash (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Stance Change
    IVs: 31 HP / 31 Atk / 31 Def / 0 Spd / 31 SAtk / 31 SDef
    EVs: 232 HP / 60 Atk / 216 SAtk
    Quiet Nature (+SAtk, -Spd)
    - King's Shield
    - Shadow Ball
    - Shadow Sneak/Iron Head/Flash Cannon/Toxic/Sacred Sword
    - Iron Head/Shadow Sneak/Flash Cannon/Toxic/Sacred Sword

    This set is good for supporting hyper offense and balanced teams. It tanks physical and special hits nicely with its great defenses, and retaliates with massive power in blade form. 0 IVs is to be slower than Conkeldurr, so you can attack it after tanking a hit in Shield form.

    3)
    Aegislash (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Stance Change
    EVs: 236 HP / 252 SAtk / 20 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Toxic
    - Substitute
    - King's Shield
    - Shadow Ball

    This set is similar to Sub-toxic Zapdos in DPP. It's incredible, and its hard for balanced teams to take on. Common counters, such as spdef Hippowdon, Mandibuzz, and Chesnaught, are left severly hindered for the rest of the game by toxic. You can use this set faster too.

    4)
    Aegislash (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Stance Change
    EVs: 232 HP / 80 Atk / 176 SAtk / 20 Spd
    Mild Nature (+SAtk, -Def)
    - King's Shield
    - Pursuit
    - Shadow Ball
    - Iron Head

    This set is commonly paried with Keldeo, Mega Charizard Y, or Calm Mind Landorus. Aegislash is one of the best [email protected] counters, and easily scares them out with the fear of a KO. Pursuit [email protected] with Aegislash, and leave pokemon like Mega Charizard Y to rip through teams.

    5)
    Aegislash (M) @ Shuca Berry
    Trait: Stance Change
    EVs: 112 HP / 216 SAtk / 180 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - King's Shield
    - Metal Sound
    - Shadow Ball
    - Flash Cannon

    This set isn't as common as the others, but it has its niche. using Metal Sound, Aegislash can stay in shield form. After a Metal Sound, Garchomp and Landorus-t can't do much damage to Aegislash with a shuca berry in shield form, and will get OHKO'd by a shadow ball.

    6)
    Aegislash (M) @ Weakness Policy
    Trait: Stance Change
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - King's Shield
    - Autotomize
    - Shadow Ball
    - Flash Cannon

    This set is similar to Rock Polish Landorus because after +2 speed can sweep teams late-game. With a weakness policy boost and an autotomize under its belt, Aegislash can sweep many HO teams.


    That's why, in my opinion, aegislash should be banned.

    ---------------------------------------------------------

    I think Mega Mawile is broken because it has ridiculous power and good coverage to hit almost everything in the tier except arcanine (LOL). It has low speed, but has one of the best priority moves in the game, sucker punch. It can run SD with play rough, sucker punch, and iron head/knock off/fire fang, or it can rub sub + focus punch. Either way, Mega Mawile demolishes everything with over 600 attack. It can run also 4 moves but in my opinion it needs Substitute or SD. BAN

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    Mega Charizard X is one of the best Pokèmon in this tier, because it can be used both as an offensive and a defensive version. It can be used as the lategame sweeper with Dragon Dance, Flare Blitz, Dragon Claw and Roost, as a tank with Earthquake/Fire Punch, Dragon Claw, Will-o-Wisp and Roost, as a Tailwind abuser with Tailwind, Earthquake, Outrage and Flare Blitz, and can run a set invented by blunder that is pretty good: Substitute, Roost, Dragon Claw and Flare Blitz, which can scout the switch against the opponent's hyper offensive teams. In my opinion this shouldn't be banned because its easy to revenge kill and has counters like Quagsire, Hippowdon and other bulky grounds with Toxic. It's also easy to scout the set because every Zard in a stall is tank, every Charizard with Talonflame is a Tailwind abuser and every Charizard in offensive teams is standard Dragon Dance.

    --------------------------------------------------------------

    Thundurus is an incredible support for Hyper Offense teams because he can Thunder Wave some setuppers like Mega Gyarados and Mega Charizard X.
    Without him the metagame will be instable because it's hard to stop bulky setuppers (read above) with hyper offensive teams without using Thundurus (maybe CBNite with Extreme Speed can work instead of Thundurus?), so my opinion is that Thundurus should not be suspected/banned.
    Thundurus can also be a Nasty Plotter and a physical set (sometimes also with Bulk Up) with Defiant can kill the Latwins with Knock Off, also running Wild Charge because of STAB, Superpower for Heatran, Tyranitar, Chansey and Ferrorthorn, and in the last slot Bulk Up or Fly (for killing Amoonguss and Mega Venusaur).
     
  15. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    I'm concerned that everyone is being caught up in the hype of quickly banning several things. While I'm not opposed to a suspect for one or more of the above mentioned Pokémon, I think it's important to remember the difference between a good Pokémon and a broken one. In a case where there is a Pokémon that is so dominant that it impacts the tier in an unhealthy way, it should be banned to help balance the tier. But when you're suggesting to ban Aegislash, Mawilite, and Charizardite-X, you're suggesting removing three of the most central pieces of the metagame. I don't dispute when you say that "Charizard-X is one of the best Pokémon in the tier", or that "Mawile can dish out severe damage on almost everything", but in doing so you're overlooking the flaws that come with these Pokémon. They're not something you can throw onto a team and make work. Charizard struggles immensely with Stealth Rock, and can't sweep entire teams because Flare Blitz recoil can put it into priority range very easily (it also really doesn't hit that hard, +0 Charizard-X Flare Blitz vs 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T is 46.2 - 54.6%). Mawile, on the other hand, is extremely frail on the special side, and its slowness means it has to rely on non-STAB Sucker Punch to beat out threats like Landorus-I/T, Thundurus-I, Garchomp, Charizards, etc. Although they both are threats in the metagame, neither is so dominant that it requires immediate attention.

    Did I mention that Charizards/Mawilite/Aegislash check each other? Part of what makes a metagame's balance is a core of strong Pokémon around which teams can be built that may have favorable or unfavorable match ups against other core Pokémon. Trying to take the top 3 out of the tier so suddenly would just create a new lower base for the top tier. Honestly I don't see the point in it. It's like taking ADV OU and banning Celebi/Gengar/TTar for being the 'best Pokémon'.

    If you're going to convince me to support a ban, it would have to be on Aegislash; but I don't think it is broken either. Aegislash has a unique presence in the metagame, but it's not without counters and checks. It has a terrible time against Diggersby and Bisharp, and Sacred Sword isn't worth packing onto every set. Mandibuzz beats sets without Toxic, and MVenu can stall out just about any defensive set. Heatran will almost always beat it 1v1. Charizard-Y handles it if there are no hazards. Gliscor shuts it down fairly well, though it can't switch in all day; same goes for Landorus-T.

    I don't want to see the top 3 threats suddenly banned now that they have formed a solid core for balance usage. A suspect of one of the three should help to clear up some opinions on the matter, but I implore everyone to remember that the usage of one is directly correlated to the other.
     
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  16. meeps

    meeps Well-Known Member

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    hello

    i think a mawilite suspect discussion would be most beneficial for the metagame rn, and if that gets banned i would like to see the meta settle for a while before deciding to suspect anything else

    mawile can potentially create free opportunities vs a lot of common pokemon such as: mandibuzz, skarmory, conkeldurr, tyranitar, clefable, sylveon, chansey, latias/latios, ferrothorn, dragonite, scizor, deoxys-d, azumarill, breloom, etc. some of these situations may be a bit situational, like dragonite needs to be locked into a move that is not fire punch of eq, something else needs to be put asleep to effectively handle breloom, latias/latios may predict a potential mawile switch and hp fire or surf or something (but for either of them to beat mawile they need to predict extremely well). mawile is perfectly capable of setting up swords dance on some of these pokemon and it can proceed to ohko them almost always (with play rough or fire fang) or any potential switch-ins bar heatran which still fears sucker punch after taking damage from play rough and potentially sr. mawile can also run sub punch which gives heatran problems, so mispredicting the set (i find it harder to predict what set mawile is running rather than something like what charizard form your opponent is using because charizard forms are more dependent on the team, while i find mawile's sets less team dependent). arcanine is literally the only counter to it, which is rarely used and only used for the sake of beating mawile. mawile can also straight-up attack on the aforementioned pokemon, doing heavy damage on potential switch-ins (the choice of whether to setup or attack isn't a very difficult decision because team preview is wonderful!). landorus-t, heatran, charizard-x, garchomp (defensive sets for them all), keldeo are probably some of the more reliable pokemon in terms of revenge killing it, others with super effective attacks risk being ko'd by a +2 sucker punch. some pokemon like gliscor cant ohko mawile and then they get ohko'd by +2 play rough, mawile is easily capable of getting 1-2 kills per battle.

    hello????????????????????????????????????

    sorry didn't realize 95 special defense was extremely frail

    252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mawile: 195-230 (80.9 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mawile: 208-246 (86.3 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
    252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mawile: 204-241 (84.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mawile: 179-213 (74.2 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    im not even calcing with hp, mawile generally run a solid amount of hp investment, its hp stat of 50 is poor but 125 def and 95 spdef are really solid. also sucker punch is still coming off of an attack stat of 678 and it, only about 90% weaker of lo bisharp's sucker punch, only defensive lando-t and garchomp dont fear a boosted sucker punch from mawile of the pokemon you listed, but they still take a lot.

    this isn't even a comparison. the adv pokemon have a far share of checks and counters. charizard-x defensively isn't checked by much (azumarill to an extent and quagsire) and if it can get a dd up (which it is very capable of) it's hard to revenge kill. mawile i've already mentioned, really doesn't have true counters (that are actually used) and is easily capable of getting a kill or two vs any team. aegislash's multitude of sets makes it hard to counter and its checks may be crippled if they mispredict the set aegislash is running.
     
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  17. Rage.

    Rage. [Hero] and [LGI]

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    I atm disagree w/ any bans further than deos/BP. we all know that your possible suspects/ (future) smogon suspects are indeed huge threats. In a metagame, there always will be things dominating it in a certain way. by banning Aegi, maw etc, as the smog meta shows, we will allow heracross/gard/cham to dominate the metagame. banning thundy would give pinsir an easier way against ho. we would create a new metagame, but this is not necessarily the way we need. there will always be 5-6 threats that are magnificent in their environment, more suspects won't change this fact. they will only exchange these mons for others. to prove that the metagame developing argument, which was seen on smogon quite a bit, isn't an as important one. now its important to prove these threats as not too unmanageable. aegi really isn't that badass, it's still threatened by many mons, regardless of which set it runs. problem is its weaknesses and slow speed, together with the "mediocre" power of shadow sneak. Not mediocre in the actual sense, since ballsneak is one part of what makes Aegi good, but its power isn't really overwhelming, didn't find a better word to describe it :x mawile is indeed a good wallbreaker, being not hardcounterable, but having a good day against stall isn't that bad for the meta, just the other way. its supposed guaranteed kill also isn't as gay as supposed. There are many mons that have a good position against many offensive teams. Scarf Garchomp, Greninja, Talonflame, Thundy, Zard X/Y, RushDrill w/ lo, Azumarill etc. All of them and many others can be annoying for offense. Q: Why can? They don't really like taking the hits. A: Because the main way of playing of offense is building up a shitton of pressure, being no setup bait and so they play against mawile. They won't really give the opponents the time to set up. If you outrage your scarfchomp w/ the opponent having mawile, own fault. Earthquake scarfchomp against a dnite team? Own fault. This is how offense plays, safe if necessary, and capable of revenging opposing boost sweepers. It's perfectly possible in practice, though not in theory since the pro-ban players assume getting no to no significant damage while boosting/subbing, which is just the opposite against highly offensively pressuring teams.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2014
  18. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Delta Stream

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    just going to address this part because its p bad tbh. the slippery slope fallacy is something that should never be used in suspects. keeping an unhealthy mon in the meta for the sake of keeping another mon in check is a horrible way to go about suspects. if we ban one mon and another mon proves broken as a result we ban the other mon. the last part about thundy was especially bad since thundy hasnt been banned on smogon yet
     
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  19. Rage.

    Rage. [Hero] and [LGI]

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    Theres a reason why i say 'would' in the last sentence and why i seperated it from the one w/ mawile and Aegi. My main message wasn't that they are kept to keep threats in check, i meant that there will always be some amount of mons that dominate the meta and not that we would ban them too. If we would ban these mons we would literally destroy what ou is by time. lets w8 for smogon doing this huehuehue
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2014
  20. Nog

    Nog Fuck Curselax

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    I think I'll just clear up some things regarding strong vs overcentralizing. If something is up for suspect it would have to be unhealthy for the meta game, versatile, have limited flaws or flaws that can easily be patched by teammates, etc. If a Pokemon is strong it will have a significant impact on the tier, but doesn't break the tier or make a cesspool. Additionally it can be checked / countered much easier or played around. Pokemon like Thundurus and Landorus fall under the latter section while Pokemon like Mega Mawile would fall under the former.

    Mawile is quite unhealthy for the meta game atm. It has great typing, solid bulk for an offensive poke, access to priority, an amazing ability, multiple sets it can run and the fact that 0 Atk Mega Mawile has more Atk than 252+ cube is just disgusting. It's main downsides are it's speed and somewhat over reliance on Sucker Punch. While it's speed is not the best and it does rely on Sucker Punch to get kills once in a while are both true, it doesn't take away from the upsides nor how easy Mawile is to play nor how few Pokemon actually counter it. The simple fact that it immediately threatens the vast majority of the tier by being in the team preview is a big issue and you don't need much prediction to kill a couple pokes if you are the Mawile user. Unless you carry like max Def Bold Chandelure or max Def Bold Arcanine with Will-o-Wisp on either, you have to sac something to bring in a check safely. You have to repeatedly send in something to die just to have a chance at killing Mawile and if the Mawile user has team built well they would have checks or counter to Mawile checks / counters and thus you've gone nowhere in trying to kill it. Lastly Mawile can just pick it's counters which is annoying. SD + Fire Fang beats Skarm, Scizor and Ferrothorn; Substitute + Focus Punch beats Heatran and Magnezone; SD + Iron Head beats Weezing and Mega Venusaur, etc. You get the point and if you don't I'm worse at explaining than I thought :[
     
  21. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    I absolutely agree about Mawile, there isn't a safe switchin that isn't an obscure counter. Intimidate + decent stats let it be 2hkoed (or more) by everything neutral or resisted (also supereffective physical stuff at -1 like garchomp) and it always reply with an OHKO (including Dancin + Sucker). Its reliable counters which are viable in OU for other stuff can be koed by different set (SubPuncher, Fire Fang). I don't wanna say it is invincible cuz, as now, it had been beatable in some ways (e.g. running hippo+heatran+eventually quag in a stall should cover everyone of its sets, also Keldeo is a good check/rkiller and can enter on a SuckerPunch tho it's risky, also RotomW outspeeds and burns tho it takes 75 from PRough and HealingWish support still exists) but there aren't good reasons to state it isn't Op and too much powerful. Also it doesnt give utility in the tier, it's just one powerful cleaner, instead of other stuff like Aegi or Thundurus or Keldeo that balances the tier from other prolly stuff that can be broken shit without them
     
  22. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    And Mawile doesn't have to predict? It relies on Sucker Punch to get the jump on anything faster than it. If it's going to hit things switching into and wear its checks down, it can't use Sucker Punch every time a Latios threatens Surf. Many of those situations are indeed situational, in addition to the already said, Azumaril can 70%+ on either Mawile w/ Intimidate or Mega Mawile; Clefable often runs Flamethrower, otherwise it's bait for many other things including Scizor and Ferrothorn; one of those was just banned; most of those require predicting, and Leech Seed/Thunder Wave can cripple Mawile.

    I would count Heatran and Landorus-T, some of the most commonly used, before Arcanine.

    The special defense Mawile is switching into things with is 55, not 95. If you're going to assume it has Intimidate to make it safe on everything else, it can't have the best of both worlds. Even so, the calcs you have provided show how MMawile stands up against neutral special attacks; it doesn't.

    The metagame is different because there have been many mechanical changes, from the addition of new Pokémon and abilities to the physical/special split. Of course you can't hope for the OU of XY to resemble past tiers, and I can say with certainty trying to retrofit it to previous standards by banning the top Pokémon of a new tier will prove futile. Every tier, however different from others, with end up built around an S rank of "best" mons. Some of the things people are asking to ban in fact keep other things in check much more than they threaten the integrity of the tier. I'm not saying bans in general are a bad thing, but that there has to be a point where you acknowledge what OU is made of and let it run its course. You don't have to ban things to maintain a tier, yet the fact that people are asking to quick suspect 3 things is evidence of that mindset. Given that suspects have been leading to bans regardless of the content of the thread, I cannot say I'm eager for any suspects atm. I'd rather people give an effort to play the game as it is, since it is a lot more balanced than it is being made out to be.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2014
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  23. meeps

    meeps Well-Known Member

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    i'll go into more detail on some of the pokemon

    mandibuzz - no risk for mawile switching in, free sd or play rough for mawile
    skarmory - no risk for mawile switching in, only fears counter which is pretty rare, fire fang does a nice amount of damage leaving skarmory more suspectible to being killed by something else if it uses whirlwind. if mawile manages to sd skarm will be taken down to sturdy allowing almost anything to easily kill skarm
    conkeldurr - no risk for mawile switching in, can play rough or sd
    tyranitar - needs to predict switch and eq if dd mega, otherwise mawile can play rough and ohko, same with scarf sets, against slower support sets mawile doesn't risk much switching in
    clefable - needs to predict mawile switch in, otherwise mawile mauls clefable, cleric sets mawile doesn't even risk anything switching in so generally mawile doesn't have much of a problem switching in vs clefable
    sylveon - no risk for mawile switching in, free sd or play rough for mawile
    chansey - no risk for mawile switching in, only fears twave honestly which isn't that great especially if chansey is being run on a stall team (which it commonly is)
    latias/latios - already mentioned they need to predict well, and latias commonly only runs draco meteor / psyshock so mawile generally doesn't risk much switching into latias. latios needs to not psyshock / draco meteor on potential mawile switch-in which isn't necessarily an easy prediction. mawile has the upperhand on them most of the time.
    ferrothorn - 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 320-380 (90.9 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO. not even boosted, and ferrothorn wont always run max def. mawile wont take much from any attack from ferrothorn and only fears leech seed really (paralyzing mawile only hinders it 25% of the time and hax isn't even an argument for something being broken or not, if mawile can get up an sd, a lot of stuff can still be hurt by sucker punch). mawile generally has the upperhand vs ferrothorn as well
    dragonite - simply the presence of mawile being a team makes it harder to play with dnite, especially band the most commonly used set because it has to rely on eq generally and can force it to mispredict. if dragonite does opt to outrage then mawile gets a free turn. in regards to dd, dragonite also needs to eq on potential switch-in to win, otherwise mawile can take an eq and do a lot of damage with play rough, sometimes ohkoing dragonite
    scizor - mawile doesn't risk much switching in and it can ohko scizor with fire fang which may pressure scizor to switch allowing mawile to setup sd or use play rough or just try to get the ohko on scizor
    azumarill - assvest / belly drum variants are more common than band, and it's pretty easy to tell what set azumarill is running especially if azumarill switches into something and then mawile switches in vs azumarill. a situation which i've seen is azumarill coming in to keldeo, the damage azumarill takes makes it easy to discern whether it's band, assvest, or bdrum azumarill. if it's band mawile simply wont need to switch-in, vs assvest mawile can switch-in and take around 50% max on switch-in and it takes a waterfall even better afterwards so situation vs assvest favors mawile, and mawile wont need to come in vs bdrum sets (they usually run less hp so it can be discerned by damage output as well).
    breloom - something can be sacked to sleep and then mawile can come in and handle breloom

    also in regards to tyranitar and dragonite, predicting a mawile to switch in and eqing when running a dd set is an extremely hard play to make, so overall mawile has the upperhand in a lot of these situations when switching in

    i also just reviewed the sd set, subpunch sets are also capable of setting up quite nicely on a solid amount of the listed pokemon

    sorry heatran isn't a counter gets destroyed by subpunch which has a decent amount of usage. non-defensive sets get 2hko by play rough + sucker punch, so you cant really can lando-t a counter, also it cant switch into mawile forever and can easily be worn down throughout the battle

    regular mawile doesn't need to switch-in vs them, but i was displaying in 1v1 situations mawile can beat them (keldeo needs to be locked into scald after previously using it tho)

    i honestly would like to wait before suspecting aegislash and charizardite-x, as i've mentioned i think a mawilite suspect would be most beneficial to the meta rn and i would like to see the meta settle for a while without mega mawile. the deo bans and baton pass bans were extremely necessary which is why they were all handled rather swiftly
     
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  24. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    Am I the only one getting tired of the "too much Attack" and "can do x to get over y so y isn't a counter" arguments?

    That's not finding why a Pokemon shouldn't be in a tier, that's finding excuses to ban it!


    If I were to give a reason, it would be that Mawile sets up VERY easily, and its raw power makes it all the more threatening. Intimidate any Physical Sweeper you want, grab either a free switch and/or setup, and after that, game over. If the right things are done at the right time (which is fairly easy for MegaMawile's sake pre-Mega Evo), you set up a generic instant-win. Either by setting up a SD or a Substitute, the game becomes easy mode.

    A lot of Mawile users tend to use it incorrectly as a basic all-out attacker. If you want to do that, use Mega-Medicham. It's stronger, faster, has priority, and is walled by less things without setup. Mawile abuses setup and the many ways it can do so, which is what makes it troublesome. Mawile's job is to scare the shit out of just about anything it can and punish the opponent because of it, making it more of Mawile's fault and reason to win rather than the players'. THAT'S a reason to ban something.


    Seriously, if "too much Attack" was the reason to ban something, we'd have banned Azumarill, Medicham, Rampardos, MegaHeracross, and Kyurem-B before we thought of suspecting MegaMawile. The "can do x to get over y so y isn't a counter" is a joke. That's almost never a valid single reason to ban something seeing that -- well, you know -- every Pokemon ever can do that.

    Can we look for metagame affects rather than reasons it's so strong? We get it's stupid powerful and we get it can outsmart some counters (Heatran is still a generic counter. If not, it's a check to every set without SubPunch), but a Pokemon is banned for its toxic effects toward the metagame, not because it's stat is too high!
     
  25. meeps

    meeps Well-Known Member

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    the definition of a counter is something that can switch-in and always beat the pokemon regardless of the set (bar gimmicks or extremely uncommon moves, focus punch on mawile is not uncommon and it is perfectly viable). heatran is simply a check for reasons i've stated, defensive sets can handle sd mawile, but cant win vs subpunch mawile (in the case of heatran switching in and mawile subbing, and a counter is supposed to switch-in and beat it always regardless of the set).

    idk if you read my posts or not but i barely focus on the checks/counters of mawile and i actually focus on the impacts it has on the metagame (other posts really handle that as well too)
     
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  26. Hector's Planet

    Hector's Planet Member

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    With an Aegislash suspect being mentioned, I thought I would share my thoughts on some Pokémon that are very strong, but currently are used infrequently, in part due to the existence of Aegislash. These Pokémon are Mega Medicham, Mega Gardevoir and Mega Heracross. If a ban on Aegislash goes through, I'd suggest looking at these mons directly afterwards.

    Mega Heracross/Medicham/Gardevoir are all three very poweful wall breakers in the OU tier. If you can remove Aegislash from your opponent's field, they're having a field day. Mega Medicham has the highest power of them all, Gardevoir has excellent typing and the ability to snipe through a Substitute and Heracross just muscles through the Substitutes with his multi-hit attacks, while sporting superb bulk for an offensive Pokémon - 80/115/105 defenses on a Pokémon with a ridiculous 185 base power is nothing to frown at.

    With Aegislash in the metagame, all of these three have to run somewhat obscure moves to break through (Fire Punch/Shadow Ball/Earthquake, respectively) that they would like to drop in order to get even more wrecking power (multiple choices for Medicham, Focus Blast or Will-o-Wisp for Mega Gardevoir and Swords Dance/Rock Blast for Mega Heracross). However they're still very powerful with it, and they dismantle stall easily through their sheer power. None require setup time to become powerful (Swords Dance helps even further for Heracross though), so they cannot be taunted. Their sheer power makes it difficult to send in anything - resisting their attacks aren't enough in many cases, especially as there's always coverage options to look out for. However, as I keep coming back to, Aegislash helps to keep these mons in check. They might still be overpowered though and are Pokémon to be on the lookout for.

    The flaw of these three Mega mons are that they're weak to priority (in Heracross case, it's so slow that you don't need priority, STAB SE moves work fine) and as a fact aren't as powerful versus offense as they are versus stall variants. Mega Medicham has a very weak 60/85/85 and doesn't resist any priority except Mach Punch, same with Mega Gardevoir which has an equally pitiful 68/65/135 bulk (while good on the special side, all priority moves except the never-seen Vacuum Wave are physical) and it is only resisting Mach Punch while being weak to both Bullet Punch and Shadow Sneak. However, with proper support (Healing Wish Latias is great) you can get out of trouble and cause havoc more than once.

    TL;DR - Mega Gardevoir/Heracross/Medicham have such extreme power that they on their own win games versus balanced and stall teams. They're kept in check right now almost purely through the existence of Aegislash (and being weaker vs. offensive teams), but if Aegislash is banned from the OU tier, these mons should get suspected shortly afterwards.
     
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  27. Sasuke Uchiha

    Sasuke Uchiha God of tits and wine

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    Aegislash isn't even suspected yet so it feels really out of place to start discussing possible suspects that could thrive in a metagame without it ?_?
     
  28. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    Though I find Aegisless metagame more comfortable than Aegi meta, I have to say imo Aegislash doesn't need to get banned (a suspect should be understandable but I will go with a No Ban decision at the end of that). I'm goin in depth of this

    Aegislash, as @Hector's Planet already said in his detailed post, is a very powerful Pokémon (someone should say it's a pseudo 720 BST) with an amazing offensive and defensive potential, a plethora of viable (and effective) sets, a really good typing (the most powerful offensive type + most powerful defensive type), a unique protecting move. So you may guess why I think it shouldn't get banned.

    1- Powerful stats... for weak STABs...
    While it's true that Aegislash Blade can count on 150 Atk/SAtk base stats, it's also true that its most powerful STABs got only 80 BP... And they are both Special (Shadow Ball, Flash Cannon). At least you can count on Iron Head, which is 70 BP (actually is 80 sry lol)... It's also true that Aegislash usually doesn't run Steel STABs due to restricted coverage I will explain better later.

    I state this because in terms of effective damage it's important to know that Base Power move is definitely more important than Base Stat.. I will go with an example with Hitmontop (95 base Atk) using Close Combat (120 BP), and Conkeldurr (140 base Atk) using Drain Punch (75 BP.. very close to Aegi's most powerful STABs). Both will be 252+ to realize better why low BP move is a big drawback.

    252+ Atk Hitmontop Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 458-542 (71.3 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 378-446 (58.8 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    As you can see, Hitmontop will deal much more damage than Conkeldurr, so running 150 base Stats would mean nothing if you don't have powerful moves to abuse on it.
    2- Lack of Recovery + low HP
    Aegislash doesn't have a recovery move and it can count only on Leftovers. What does this mean? This means it cannot be a solid entry on many things.. While its typing make it takes (or absorbs) many hits, others (think about Thunderbolt Thundurus LO as example) will deal pretty good damage (252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 133-156 (41 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery), so it can't be a check of many stuff runnin OU tier.

    It also got low HP: that DOESN'T mean it's not Bulky, cause it is lol, but this means its Substitutes will be breaked easily than other bulky sub mons.. this is not that relevant, but it's a point in favor to say SubAegislash isn't that invincible mon. And it absolutely needs Wish support to be viable.

    3- Aegislash basically got 3 moves
    Aegislash's uniqueness, besides its dual form, consists in its signature move: King's Shield. As you surely know, this is a (ONLY) damage protecting move that can deal a -2 Atk drop to the opponent if it uses contact moves against Aegislash when protecting. This is also the ONLY way to make Aegislash return in its bulky Shield Form: you surely know that Aegislash's Blade Form got an awful 60/50/50 bulkyness and is dies to almost everything. This means you can run only 3 moves on it, that is a reduction of its coverage.

    4- The "50/50" factor
    A lot of people dragged in Aegi's question this controversial and questionable thing that Aegislash reduce the tier to a 50/50 stuff.
    Surely 50/50 is the worst term to define this point, that is better explained with a practical situation:
    You attacked with Aegislash so it has turned to Blade Form, but in this same turn (due to a kill or just a switch in), your opponent put in a Pokémon like a weakened Gyarados(Mega), Landorus, Garchomp, in short something that can kill it. Would Aegislash shield? Gyarados can dance, Landorus can sub, Garchomp can dance and OHKO at +2... Would Aegislash attack then? Gyarados can EQ, Landorus can EPower, Garchomp can EQ.. is this situation a 50/50? Not properly. You have to consider the whole situation (e.g. Can MegaGyarados +1 end the battle sweeping everything? Is Aegislash fundamental to win? These are factors that can incline the "50/50 libra" on Shield or on attack, and in my opinion recognizing what is the best choice for you and for the opponent is a sign of skill..
    I don't mean those 50/50 are skills lol also cuz a player can choose randomly the move to do so every reasoning behind it would be useless, but what good players choose is not "random" (50/50 is) and they (usually) consider what can make them win and what can be sacrificed in order to win.
    Also, this "50/50" stuff isn't unique to Aegislash. Think about a Tyranitar vs Lucario scenario: will Lucario Dance? Will Tyranitar attack? Both choice are sensed and apparently it's a 50/50 but you have to consider the whole game..(Bisharp will KnockOff or SuckerPunch? KyuB will sub or attack?)
    In short this isn't a question regarding only Aegislash but the whole game, and also it isn't always "uncompetitive", and especially this is not an Aegislash's advantage so this isn't a ban argument.

    5- Aegislash GOT counters
    Argument "There is not a unique counter of every Aegislash set" seems like Genesect BW2/XY ban argument, as Mega Lucario ban argument, but it seems also Keldeo BW2 ban argument (remember? Jellicent can't wall Keldeo cuz CM HP Ghost, Celebi can't counter Keldeo cuz HP Bug, Toxicroak can't pass through Specs set and Latwins are owned by ExpertBelt set).
    So why Mega Lucario was banned for its unpredictability and Keldeo not? People are dumb? Well they may be but surely not due to this point lol. The reason is that you can scout MegaLucario basically in a "point of no return" (after a SwordsDance or a NastyPlot and this usually means "GG"), while BW2 Keldeo was still stoppable after revealing its set. Genesect was stoppable after revealing its? Maybe yes but usually it would have done its job of killing someone due its huge movepool (something Aegislash ain't got). To make it short I think Aegislash is more similar to a BW2 Keldeo, powerful but not banworthy, than a MegaLucario, which deserved the ban, tho the argument brought is kinda the same.
    Also Aegislash, as Keldeo, can have in a team more than a check of its multiple sets without restricting too much teambuilding because they are viable together anyway for other roles (example: SDefGliscor + Quagsire + Heatran in a stall team can work together and they respectively counter Mixed, SD and SubToxic sets).

    I will list how many OU tier mons reacts to Aegi. Before reading it, you have to consider previous points, that are Aegislash can run 3 moves, that Aegislash's BP moves are really weak, that Aegi can't live forever and it is a potential setup fodder to many offensive stuff.
    Amoonguss: SDef set is 4HKOed by ShadowBall after BSludge, it can Spore on shield or just FoulPlay, being slower. It checks well every other set, SubToxic can't do pretty much. Really good answer.
    Azumarill:
    CB set: w/0 ivs speed to be always slower, even at -2, can survive to every Aegi's attack and reply with KnockOff OHKO -> -2 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 334-394 (103 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    AV set: always w/0 ivs speed, it can't OHKO with -2 KnockOff but it can take a lot less damage from ShadowBall -> 252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 99-117 (28.6 - 33.9%) -- 0.7% chance to 3HKO
    BDrum set: it can drum on shield and kill even at +4 -> +4 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 334-394 (103 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    Bisharp: it walls SubToxic set and can enter on every move but SSword. It has to watch out at maxspeed if adamant (just use Sucker Punch). It can pursuit Aegi. Defiant makes it immune to KShield and KnockOff always OHKOes.
    Chansey: walls SubToxic, it can enter on ShadowBalls and it's 3HKOed by SSword. Only problem is that it can't do nothing vs the ghost.
    Chesnaught: it walls every set bar SubToxic. It's a fodder of SD Set but there are so many mons can do fine vs this set.
    MegaCharX: it always takes ShadowBall and it can take advantage on BladeForm using DD/Roost or it can just kill w/EQ or risking FlareBlitz. It can also cripple Aegi w/WoW.
    MegaCharY: it can enter on ShadowBall and reply with a kill. Fire Blast under sun always OHKOes. It can roost on probably Shield
    Clefable: only stopped by Steel STABs (scoutable). It can CalmMind and use Fire move on standard mixed and SubToxic (if it's MagicGuard). Unaware also stops SD set.
    Conkeldurr: 0 IVs speed, it can take every Aegislash hit and reply with KnockOff OHKO.
    Diggersby: Quite good offense answer considering ghost absorbing but SSword is painful. EQ always KOes Aegi, also Digger can dance on shield blabla.
    Dragonite: +1 EQ OHKOes Shield Form (so just be Band or dance on it). Multiscale allows mure bulkyness.
    Excadrill: just a good revengekiller
    Ferrothorn: Defensive set can incredibly take a +2 252+Atk Sacred Sword. PowerWhip breaks blade's subs, Leech Seed bypasses Shield, it can use Knock Off to be more dangerous.
    Garchomp(mega): Survives to any attack, it can statup or sub on shield or just 2hkoes it
    Gliscor: SubToxic always wins vs SD set, it can stand a ShadowBall even if defensive and kill it. SDef Gliscor is definitely a counter of every set, taunting SD and kills every other set.
    Greninja: a sort of SBall check that can reply w/Dark Pulse
    Gyarados(mega): it enters on every Aegi's move and can dance or just EQ. +1 Adamant EQ OHKOes Shield.
    Heatran: Pretty solid mixed's counter tho it can be 2HKOed by SSword w/SR up, it totally walls SubToxic.
    Hippowdon: Slower than Aegi, if SDefensive it's 3HKOed by ShadowBall and it replies w/EQ OHKO on BladeForm
    Kyurem-B: It can enter on every move but steels, it can sub/attack/do that "50/50" thing. EPower is pretty dangerous
    Landorus: good rkiller sincer Epower OHKOes Shield. It can also sub on it.
    Landorus-T: SD counter, it can annoy mixed w/EQ tho it's not a good answer to it.
    Mamoswine: Can OHKO Shield if Orb, anotha rkiller
    Mandibuzz: One of best Aegi's counters. Only SD Head Smash canKO it (which is a gimmick/fun stuff so don't bring it as argument pls). Beware of Toxic tho it should run Taunt to prevent it.
    MegaMawile: it can enter on a SBall and reply w/SuckerPunch or just dancin on shield. +2SuckerPunch OHKOes Shield, so basically just SubToxic got more chances to win tho FireFang/KnockOff can break the sub
    MegaPinsir: it's one of those threats entering on it and trying to Dance or just kill Blade w/EQ.
    Quagsire: walls SwordsDancer
    Rotom-W: the most common Defensive set is a solid answer to SD set. It can WoW or Split on shield
    MegaScizor: defensive improvements make it stronger in setupping and roosting vs Aegi, also it got KnockOff to kill it.
    Sylveon: solid answer to non-steelmove Aegislash. HealBell let it doesn't get crippled by Toxic, HyperVoice hits under sub tho it's not a huge damage..
    Talonflame: CBset gets owned by Shield, at the same time SwordsDance set can setup on it and kill. It can Roost before every of Aegi's moves, including SSneak.
    Terrakion: as MegaPinsir it can enter and SD or just EQ
    Thundurus: TBolt LO deals big damages, KnockOff is really strong vs Aegi. Defiant its immune to drops also.
    Tyranitar(Mega): it can enter well on Ghost Moves and reply with EQ/Crunch/Pursuit. If mega it can dance on Shield. MegaTTar is not OHKOed by SSword, as Chople.
    Vaporeon: lollll well it's a pretty good check, Wish+Scald+Protect is pretty good if u have nothing better
    MegaVenusaur: solid tank, it can use EQ, Seed, SleepPowder, KnockOff, HP Fire on Aegi. Synthesis allows more staying power and forces Aegislash to be Blade.
    Zapdos: 3HKOed by SBall if SDef. It can run HeatWave to get rid of it, also Roost + TBolt is a viable option on the long way (bar drops)

    other less viable stuff: Klefki, AV Tornadus-T, Zygarde, Mega Ampharos, Mega Blastoise, Blissey, Chesnaught, Drapion (lol), AV Entei, Florges, SDef Gastrodon, Mega Houndoom, Hydreigon, Krookodile, Milotic, Porygon2, Snorlax, SDef Seismitoad, Suicune, Umbreon, AV Escavalier, Meloetta
    So basically it's absolutely false that Aegi doesn't have counters or really good checks....

    6- Teambuilding restriction (is this bad?)
    Someone says that Aegislash restricts teambuilding. Yeah it's true, but this is also a restriction of potential of a huge list of Pokémons can be really dangerous without it (hint: try to play Smog tier). To guess who they are, just think at Aegislash resistances/immunities, but I will show a list to make it clear:
    Latwins: they lose one of their main counter. Now they can be used more giving power and support with Defog/HealingWish/Memento
    MegaHeracross: it doesn't need EQ more so it can run 4atks or SwordsDance with a really good coverage, makin it less counterable
    MegaGardevoir: it has lost its main counter, so it doesnt need to use ShadowBall and it got more space for Taunt/CalmMind/FocusBlast, while lacking of these moves would have make it weak to Chansey/stallstuff or just Heatran/Ferrothorn/MegaScizor. Aegi also is one of the very few offensive answers to it.
    CBTalonflame: it loses one of its cripplers js so it can spam BBird better
    Mega Medicham: with Aegi gone, ghost typin is basically dead (bar Gengar), so free HJK. No more need of Fire Punch, so Ice Punch is viable, or Fake Out, or even ThunderPunch for Slowbro and Alomomola (if u are scared of protect)
    Mew: there aren't good special Dark mons in the tier and almost every ghost is gone so as Psychic good stuff it can run free in OU fields spamming Taunt/Wow/Defog/KnockOff/etc
    Celebi: as Mew, but mainly as water check or bpasser
    Slowbro: annoying stall mon that can be used without Aegi
    Gengar: it hasn't to fear anymore ShadowSneaks
    Lucario: it has lost its main OU counter so welcome back
    Mega Alakazam: why not? it has lost one counter and it can spam huge damages
    Reuniclus: it can be usable... tho KnockOff still exists
    Jirachi: back in town haxspreading, it has lost its main reason made it drop UU
    MegaPinsir: it can use CloseCombat > EQ
    Dragonite: it can use FirePunch > EQ (tho hi Heatran) also Superpower became viable on CB set
    Azumarill: it can use Superpower/Ice punch > KnockOff... Drummer has lost the only thing can drop its attack easily
    Greninja: it doesn't need DarkPulse anymore, so say hi to HP Fire/Grass, lolShadowSneak and U-Turn
    MegaScizor: BugBite/Superpower now aren't crazy ideas > KnockOff
    Breloom: losses a wall, also PoisonHeal can be usable again
    Espeon: it has lost one of its main counters
    Starmie: it can be usable again
    Raikou: it can use Extrasensory > ShadowBall to fuck Venusaur/Amoonguss
    Terrakion: it doesnt need EQ as before, CBand can spam CC with less worries
    basically banning Aegislash means eliminating Ghost type from OU tier (just Gengar but it's not as useful as Aegislash) and this would enforce some threats. At the same time, the loss of the best Steel type means enforcing other stuff so in short a lot of threats will be viable in OU tier.
    What does this mean? We will have a maybe funny tier but we will be more matchup reliant than before... is centralization good? I thought yes, considering one of most skilled metagame (GSC) has a mon with >50% usage...
    what does restrict teambuilding more, one threat or 24?

    for these reasons I think Aegi shouldn't be banned (so pls suspect other stuff)
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2014
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  29. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    I believe that Aegislash and Mega-Mawile are broken in XY OU.

    As for Aegislash, there are a couple factors that lead to it being ban-worthy in the XY OU metagame.

    First and foremost, it's niche of being able to use King's Shield to: A) keep many contact move using physical attackers in check, B) force 50/50s or prediction based plays, C) conveniently switch between the defensive (shield) and offensive (blade) forms to let it be a tank and a hard-hitter, and D) scout things out like any other move of this type (i.e: protect, detect, and spiky shield).

    The next generalized reason for Aegi being so controversial is its typing of Ghost/Steel. This lets Aegi switch in on a plethora of common pokemon, moves, and in many realistic situations during game-play, especially when an Air Baloon is equipped (which is one of various viable items). Furthermore, with the 60/150/150 bulk and this typing, it can be realistically said that Aegislash can see the battle numerous times without much consequence and when it gets in, it can use solid dual STABs (or great complementary fighting coverage in Sacred Sword) to be a force to be reckoned with. The unique and beneficial typing of Aegislash can be used to draw other conclusions about its brokenness, too, but I'll leave it at this.

    Now with these two things taken into consideration, it can be seen why Aegislash is such a top tier pokemon. However, you have to think it through a bit more to understand why it's actually broken and unhealthy for the OU metagame. On top of all of the aforementioned characteristics, Aegislash is quite the versatile pokemon. As Hector's Planet discussed previously, it has a plethora of viable sets ranging from standard mixed attacking builds, to SubToxic Aegislash, and additionally to sweeping sets (SD mainly). Among these sets, they all are able to have the niche of King's Shield, the stellar typing, and the ability to dominate in the metagame, but when you put it all in perspective it is quite hard to consistently defeat Aegislash knowing that it can Toxic into your Mandibuzz, Shadow Ball into your Landorus-T, or Sacred Sword into your Tyranitar. With this being said, Aegislash, like any other pokemon, can only run four moves, 510 EVs, and one item, so with some smart play, it can still be kept in check at times, but this already makes it controversial or borderline broken.

    The icing on the cake has to be how Aegislash constricts the metagame (or restricts teambuilding, if you will). While this technically doesn't add onto how it is broken in the current state of the metagame (which the above point still does), it can be realistically said that a plethora of pokemon would become viable, or increasingly viable if they're already somewhat viable, with Aegislash departing from the metagame. Now, it's true that this can, to some extent, be applied to each and every suspect, but it is to such a large extent with Aegislash (see: Mega Gardevoir, Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham, Starmie, Celebi, Staraptor, Forretress, Lucario, Jirachi, Metagross, Terrakion, Salamence, etc.). Additionally, Aegislash also keeps so many things in check while forcing you to run one of a very small amount of pokemon to keep it fully stopped that it's just too much for the XY OU metagame to withstand.

    I suppose that I will address the contradictory arguments of the above user to finish off what I have to say on Aegislash prior to posting my opinion on Mega Mawile. So, I will go through each and every one of Cameltoed's points and leave my own insight on the matters one by one.

    In regards to "Powerful stats...for weak STABs...", it is true that Aegislash has base 80 special STABs (Shadow Ball and Flash Cannon) and a base 70 physical STAB (Iron Head), but this doesn't detract from its brokenness directly. Your calc about CC Hitmon and Drain Conk is entirely true and I'm not going to take anything away from what you're saying there, but even if base 150 SAtk Shadow Ball doesn't hit as hard as something with less SAtk using a move with much more base power, Aegislash still does a sufficient amount of damage to fulfill what it needs to. To attest to this, I will provide a couple calcs in the spoiler tags:
    252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 193-228 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 288-338 (73 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 151-178 (49.6 - 58.5%) -- 68% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    Note that these are all against common bulkier pokemon in the metagame using standard spreads/sets, but I do not calc with SR. If SR is on the field, all of these are 100% 2hkos. Now, I know that this is a very small sample size, but the point is that the damage output is fair enough and it doesn't detract, nor substantially add, to the brokenness, or lack thereof, that Aegislash has in OU.

    In regards to "Lack of Recovery + Low HP", it is true that Aegislash only has base 60 HP; however, it is also true that when in Shield form it has 150/150 defense which compensates for this and then some, so I believe it can still be said that Aegislash is a bulky pokemon. Now, being bulky or frail in general doesn't mean much, but when you add into consideration the fact that Aegislash's typing lets it switch in on so many things, the practical ability to tank of Aegislash is sky high (just going back to the point that the Steel/Ghost typing is amazing, especially on the defensive end).

    In regards to "Aegislash basically got 3 moves", while it's true that King's Shield is a universal staple, it's also true that you don't need much move coverage than Ghost+Steel and/or Ghost+Fighting in the current metagame, so the lack of attacking coverage slots isn't an issue at all. In addition, when factoring in how threatening King's Shield makes Aegislash, it shouldn't be considered as a liability in any sense, but a benefit as it's the defining move of Aegislash and why it's broken in XY OU. So, only have three moves to work with due to KS being a staple is fine because it's still able to cover what it needs to, Aegi is still versatile, and KS is such a great move.

    In regards to "The 50/50 factor", these "50/50"s can go the other way and put Aegi in a poor position, but it makes the game somewhat less skill based and (I hate this term, but I guess I'll use it) "uncompetitive". The fact of the matter is that while 50/50s don't directly attribute to Aegi's being broken, it adds to the sense that it's toxic for the metagame and when accompanying that with the previously stated pro-ban argument I made and other factors, it puts Aegislash over the top and makes it broken in the XY OU metagame.

    In regards to the point that "Aegislash still has counters", yes it does, but they vary depending on the set and there isn't much overlap (or a universal counter), so take that into consideration. With that being said, you have an ok list that I could nitpick, but I won't bother with for now. The point still stands that Aegi is hard to consistently keep in check and I could draw this back into everything mentioned above, but it'd just get repetitive so I'll cut this point here.

    In regards to your perspective on "Aegislash restricting teambuilding", you look at it as pure theorymon of the non-Aegislash metagame instead of thinking of how the tier would diversify and increase viability of various pokemon. As I touched on earlier, limitation of the metagame doesn't directly make it broken, but in conjunction with the physical brokenness it has and this, which makes it toxic for the metagame, Aegislash is broken.

    Furthermore, I believe Aegislash is broken in XY OU. Now, I'll get onto Mawile when it isn't so late, be it in an edit to this or in a separate post, but Meeps posted a lot of good stuff on it and I advise reading that as if I tried to post now, I'd just get sloppy like I did with the end of my response to Cameltoed, tbh.
     
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  30. Arceus_17

    Arceus_17 Avoid eye contact

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    You all say very nice things but let's just keep Iron Head a 80 (eighty) base power move, shall we?
     
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  31. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    This is not an Aegi suspect discussion but I wanna reply to some statements which made me thought my argument wasn't understood at all:
    first, stupid thing, but I find really questionable the fact that SD Aegi can sweep entire teams while it does ridicolous damages with its main move (ShadowSneak) and it's forced to run coverage move losing its strongest physical stab... So let's calc how SD set can be "dangerous"
    +2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 153-180 (39.7 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (it can SSword but not if weakened)
    +2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 193-228 (55.9 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 195-231 (65.6 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 145-172 (48.8 - 57.9%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 147-174 (44.1 - 52.2%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Clefable: 154-183 (39 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Conkeldurr: 249-293 (70.9 - 83.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 166-196 (51.3 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 240-283 (66.4 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 168-198 (47 - 55.4%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 132-156 (37.5 - 44.3%) -- 21% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal
    +2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 175-207 (54.1 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 174-205 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 124-147 (32.4 - 38.4%) -- 4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 193-228 (53.7 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 132-156 (48.1 - 56.9%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Pinsir: 136-162 (50.1 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 114-135 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 120-142 (42.7 - 50.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 136-161 (40.7 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 211-249 (71 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 213-252 (71.2 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 135-159 (37.6 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos: 139-165 (36.1 - 42.9%) -- 95.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 142-168 (45.6 - 54%) -- 43% chance to 2HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Amoonguss: 214-253 (49.5 - 58.5%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
    +2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 175-207 (54.1 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 96-114 (24.3 - 28.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
    A thing that need at least +4 to be dangerous can't be described as powerful set... indeed SD Aegi is quite shit and requires A LOT of support (hazards stacking, a lot of residual damages, elimination of counters), and there are too many things that can KO it before reaching +4

    Also, in the "weak stabs" point u brought calcs to stuff that can't be defined as counter of its main set which is mixed lol also stuff like Kyurem-B can be defined broken using this argument, if some checks of certain sets are totally destroyed by others... the same would be for Thundurus or Landorus or every Pokémon can run both physical and special set... Even Latios with EQ lol... How about scouting set? Amoong, Azu, Ches, Gliscor, Conk, Mandi, Saur, Heatran, Scizor can take a hit from every set without too many risks.. several others can surely enter on a ShadowBall but can risk if Aegi hits w/SSword or IronHead/FlashCannon.. but this is a risk several other mons can provide, see above mons I mentioned

    On lacks of recovery point I misswrote lol I'd say it's bulky tho its 60 base hp, but it can't be a counter if it can't enter many times during battle without dying on the long way... without any recovering way bar lefties, I find it hard being an ideal defensive mon. Or better, it can be a defensive mon (look at subtoxic set) but it can just enter on stuff it resists cuz neutral hits will make it die on the long way. Hit and run stuff makes it die especially.

    On the 3 moves fact, yeah ghost+fight is really covered, steel hurts stuff that can take this combo like fairiez but you would need also sneak or toxic or other stuff to not be weak to certain things... so Aegi, whatever set is running, will be weak to something if it lacks a certain move.. like every other mon..

    On 50/50 fact I don't know how can u call "uncompetitive" a situation which you have to understand reading whole game what will be the next move... and even if it will be uncompetitive, we should define the entire game on this call cuz there will still be these situations, whether or not Aegi will be banned.

    On counters fact, stuff like Gliscor and Amoong got enough staying power to "check" (actually counter but ok) Aegi forever but yeah a lot of stuff is kept in check by certain set while checking or countering others but this is the same thing certain stuff do to other OU mons, but this was not taken as ban argument as now so why should we do it now? (Look at Keldeo and KyuB in BW2 OU). Also consider SD set is kinda shit for reason I mentioned above, and SubToxic works well only in certain situations.. Mixed is the best set but it got many check and counters, some disregarding set, others only if it ain't got certain moves...

    At last, my argument on sixth point I took was not theorymon but I just looked at Smogon Tier... And I asked if increasing viability would be healthy for metagame or not... cuz if it is, we should suspect SR to let Yanmega be free in OU lol... I think ur argument to increase viability of certain mons should be theorymon as mine, but they just are not. And a toxic stuff, as Aegi should be, doesn't necessarily be broken. We should ban every quickpass if so!
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2014
  32. Sinclair

    Sinclair Call me the Pokemon Demigod

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    So I just deleted about 10 posts. Limit the shitposting or infractions will be dealt.
    This is a "Potential XY OU suspects" thread not an argument about the difference in ideals about PS and PO. Stay on topic when posting in this thread or actions will be taken against users not following the rules of the thread.
     
  33. Rage.

    Rage. [Hero] and [LGI]

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    [Hero]Zapdos.
    ehhh, don't kill my drizzleswim argument

    I think Drizzle + Swift Swim should be suspected because it's literally impossible to tank enough (keldeo, azu etc tank a hit, are at low hp and so get revenged afterwards, mvenusaur/ferrothorn/chansey are trapped by gothitelle). Rain HO basically has 14 or 21 turns to sweep per match, which is really overwhelming against offense. Damp Rock Politoed comes in easily and sets up the rain without even needing a free turn (like using a move). The Swift Swim users are 4 per team, so it doesn't really matter if you thundurus-wave or revengekill one of them. thundurus or other prankster waver gets killed in the same turn, priority also isn't that much of a threat unless the player lets a bisharp get +2, but that isn't hard to suppress. Talonflame is beaten by Aqua Jet Kabutops or Qwilfish, while Dragonite is revenged by Kabu aswell. I think the main problem is the attacking power boost by rain, which is additional to the speed boost, unlike for RushDrill and Chlorophyll users that are only boosted in speed.
     
  34. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    I actually think suspecting drizzle+sswim after 6gen nerf is pretty ridicolous. Rain got basically 7 turns, Politoed is a kinda bad slot for a lot of stuff, it needs to enter many times to keep Rain alive. Also Tyranitar and Charizard Y exist, especially the first with sand offence. You just have to get prepared to match against stuff like Kingdra/Kabutops and water spam in general, and you should normally do it
     
  35. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    To be honest Gothitelle traps almost whatever it needs to for most offensive teams unconditionally. It's not like DrizzleSwim was the first place it was used. While we don't exactly have full out weather wars in gen 6, we still have Tyranitar and Zard-Y who fit really nicely onto offensive teams as Cameltoed pointed out. Pokes like Dragonite, Mega Venusaur, Azumarill, Rotom-W, Chansey, Sylveon, and so on are usually pretty good at dealing with Swift Swim sweepers.

    If anything it sounds more like Gothitelle might be good to suspect with how mindlessly and perfectly it dismantles key parts of stall teams such as Skarmory, Quagsire, Chansey, and Mega Venusaur. In terms of priorities though, I think such a suspect would be further down the line, behind Aegislash and mega Zards at least.

    Which leads to my next point of Aegislash. The mixed capabilities in this guy are just disgusting when combined with the ability to tank almost any hit.
    252+ Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP/0 Def Aegislash: 260 - 308 (99.6 - 118%) -- 93.7% chance to OHKO
    The fact that a STAB 405 Atk Earthquake only manages to do that much to Aegislash is pretty amazing. Combine that with a whopping total of 9 resistances and 3 immunities and you have a Pokemon that gets an incredible amount of opportunities to switch in. Very few things want to switch into a Shadow Ball, and the few things that do, like Mandibuzz, get screwed over by SubToxic. Even Bisharp can get outdone by a fast LureSlash.

    Between a wall breaker, a stall breaker, a lure, or even a pursuit trapper, there's usually almost no reason to not add Aegislash to one's team. I believe the simultaneous offense and defense it brings just by switching in is too much for the current OU tier to handle.
     
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  36. Rage.

    Rage. [Hero] and [LGI]

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    I disagree w/ suspecting goth. how good shall stall become even more? and against non-stall its literally a 5v6 matchup. the reason why it was enough for a ban in uu is that even very offensive teams appreciate those common goth-fodder walls. in ou, ho is ho. offense is offense and balanced is still not that gothitelle-bait. stall honestly is allowed to suffer from this one thing in my opinion, considering how good it is in the metagame, if well-built.

    I disagree with suspecting aegislash. feel free to refer to my earlier posts about that, im too lazy to repeat it. btw, if you run jolly bisharp, you won't have to fear fast aegi, i used to prefer jolly on my deosharp teams because of rotom-w, zapdos etc, and still think it's quite viable, espec on an SD set.
     
  37. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Maybe it's just me, but you keep pointing out that stall will become "too good" (honestly this gen shafted it if anything in my opinion). Aegislash doesn't only affect stall. In fact, I'd venture to say that it hurts balanced and HO teams a lot more by making revenging very difficult to do without locking oneself into an unfavorable move. Unless you're running a high powered STAB EQ, you're not getting past it without it firing off a few nuclear Shadow Balls, which usually means at least 1-2 dead or severely weakened Pokemon. If anything I find that Aegislash makes teambuilding for offense/hyper offense obscenely difficult and limited due to almost all the sets being able to do a ton of damage to almost every switch in (all you really need is Shadow Ball). Having a set that screws with stall is just icing on the cake.

    Choice Rotom-W, Azumarill, Venusaur, Thundurus-I, Conkeldurr, etc all get trapped by Gothitelle and are commonly found on balance and offense teams. A lot of balance teams will also use Skarmory or Chansey to provide support and pivoting ability to the team, they aren't just limited to stall. No point in arguing this now, because if you read my post I wasn't suggesting to suspect Goth this very second, just that it could potentially be brought up much further down the line.

    I don't see the point you made about Bisharp since both natures are completely viable... as is Grass Knot for Hippo and Quag (people did/do run that).

    When almost every potential counter can be beaten by an appropriate Aegislash set, and Aegislash isn't broken, what is your definition of broken? Because correct me if I'm wrong, but the community's definition of "broken" seems to roughly be "has shaky counters and unreliable checks". Yes, almost every top tier Pokemon has methods of getting around its checks and counters, but it usually sacrifices something. Liechi Talonflame can potentially get around Rotom-W and Tyranitar, two of its biggest checks and counters, but it only gets one chance of doing so and has to sacrifice either SD or Roost. I don't see how something that has viable sets to get around most of its checks and counters while still threatening a large chunk of the metagame to the point that it benefits almost any team its thrown on isn't worth at least suspecting.

    Referring people, regardless of the points they made, to a post that simply dismisses the other side without presenting solid checks, counters, and other information makes for a really poor argument. If it was a stronger, more organized argument I'd be a little less annoyed at being told to refer to it.
     
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  38. Silph Co.

    Silph Co. New Member

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    Thank you now I see what you mean. Makes sense. I remain hopeful that BP vs. BP "racing" will become a thing. Both sides have access to whirlwind and hazards, as well as ingrain and magic bounce. Things would get tricky. I think that's the fun of it but I can see how some Baton Passer teams might not like that. I theorymon that after a while the all-BP tier would stabilize in usage with teams only using 2-3 passers max with standard OU mixed in.
     
  39. Khristophoros

    Khristophoros New Member

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    Calling it mindless is to ignore the mindgames that exist because of Gothitelle being in the match. Wifi Battle is standard so you know your opponent has Gothitelle. Because of that she (or any other trapping pokemon) is not a cheap surprise, but a factor you are aware of. If you let her trap one of the pokemon she wants to trap, you got outplayed. You can always switch on the same turn you predict that she will be switched in.
     
  40. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    I don't think there's a huge downside to double switching on Gothitelle with stall unless you have some serious hazards down or go into Heatran. By the same argument you could double switch Gothitelle into these Pokemon as well. The opponent would need to get just about every mind game correct or they outright lose in most situations, the Gothitelle user normally doesn't carry that same risk against stall, which is what makes it so brainless. I also never said it should be suspected now, just that it could be a thought later down the line since someone already brought it up in another context.

    I am not saying suspect Gothitelle now for the really slow of you, I simply stated that it is an idea instead of suspecting rain, which clearly is not broken by itself. I don't feel like continuing to respond to this. I don't see how switching in and trapping a ton of important pokemon on a team with very little effort is brainless, but okay.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2014
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