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XY OU Potential Suspects Thread

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Discussion' started by Halsey, Nov 4, 2013.

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  1. gAmerBlob

    gAmerBlob Member

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    Sticky Web has only nine Pokemon that can use it, and none of them have much use outside of that particular move. Stealth Rock, at least in the previous generations, was a standard move that 99% of teams ran, with many very viable Pokemon that could use it. Smeargle is the only Sticky Web user that we would see used in OU if it didn't have Sticky Web. If you have to dedicate a whole team slot around setting up a single move, then your team is based around taking advantage of it, or else it's just a bad team. It'd be like using Ninetales, but saying that it just happens to have Drought, which Venusaur uses to its full advantage. A team with Sticky Web is a Sticky Web team. Sticky Web won't/can't be thrown onto a team like Stealth Rocks can.

    I do agree that Deoxys-S being banned right off the bat was weird, especially since Deoxys-N wasn't. I don't see it being that big of a deal this generation.
     
  2. Laurel

    Laurel Well-Known Member

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    Here is my opinion on two Pokemon:

    Mega Kangaskhan:

    Mega Khan is an incredibly strong pokemon. However, as people have stated it suffers four move slot syndrome. In personal experience, it must carry Return to be effective, and therefore lacks either Sucker Punch or Earthquake. If it lacks Earthquake it is walled by the ever prevalent Aegislash, if it lacks Sucker Punch it is revenge killed by everything faster than it. Mega Kangaskhan definitely does a lot of damage to offensive teams; however, it is very easy to use a pivot pokemon on an offense team like Rough Skin Garchomp + Rocky Helmet, or Ferrothorn + Rocky Helmet, and work great at checking Khan and fulfilling other rolls for the team such as setting up Rocks. In addition, Mega Khan is basically useless against stall. Skarmory, Trevenant, Jellicent, Ferrothorn are all very common pokemon on Stall Teams and Khan needs very good support to pass them. In conclusion, although Khan is a very strong pokemon, I think it lacks the movepool and diversity to be banned from OU.

    Tornadus-T:

    Tornadus-T was a pokemon that was banned last generation because it was clearly very broken with rain. However, this generation, rain got a serious nerf. In any event, even with the nerf to rain, Tornadus-T is extremely strong. I have been playing on the ladder with a rain team from gen 5, and Tornadus-T is definitely the same threat it once was. Although it gained a new popular check in Aegislash, Aegislash can easily be warn down from Specs Hurricanes. In addition, the only other common check is Rotom-W, which is 2HKO's by Specs Focusblast, and still takes about 35% from a Specs Hurricane. Finally, thanks to Regenerator Tornadus-T can still sponge a hit and dish out a hurricane before retreating and getting its health back. I would not say Tornadus-T is broken because it needs more support this generation then last to work, but Hurricane is still insanely strong, and with the lack of checks in the metagame, I believe it will still stay top tier OU.
     
  3. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    Deoxys-S ban was decided long time before Defog's new mechanics were revealed; without that change it arguably is a more dominant force than Deoxys-N. However note that personally I wanted Deoxys-N to be in the initial ban list, the potential ban list I proposed back in July 19th is the exact same we are currently using but without Gengarite, but not everyone seemed to like my idea!

    Anyways, Deoxys-S might get retested in the near future, but we are currently focusing on banning the blatantly broken Pokemon.
     
  4. Sun Yo

    Sun Yo New Member

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    That's not right, the most used sets have Return, Sucker Punch, Earthquake, Power up Punch.

    I think the main problem with Mega Kangaskhan is that you need to scout what set he's running before you can safely switch in your counter. And there are numerous problems to this scenario that I'm sure have been discussed in the suspect forums thousands of times, like: getting hit by a coverage you weren't expecting and losing the only Pokemon on your team who can check/counter him.

    BAN, INSTA BAN, INSTA SNAP BAN... imo

    Also, am I the only one that thinks only Genesect, Blaziken and Kangaskhan should be banned?
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2013
  5. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I personally find Mega Kanga intensely annoying. It seems to score absurd amounts of crits, it's very difficult to actually wall, and every one you face seems to be different. It makes me le sad. :(

    However, while annoying, and painfully bulky too, it's definitely beatable. Blaziken I can see getting banned, more for its Baton Passing merit than for its actual offensive presence, and Genesect's the exact same scenario as it was last gen; a movepool that stretches from Kanto to Kalos, decent bulk, great power, great typing, and great at stealing momentum. Hard to beat, but not impossible, because it can't possibly use all the moves it needs at once.
     
  6. Jay B 11

    Jay B 11 Dont read this sentence

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    So after laddering for about a week now on about 3 accounts there are DEFINITELY threats to consider:

    Blaziken: Even if its not using baton pass it still had the capability to sweep teams by itself. It protects on its mega to get a free speed boost + mega stats then spams hjk/flare blitz until it suicides or swept your team. I run a max hp/max def hippowdon on my team and it cant switch in safely so i need a sack something to get a switch in to hippo to only phase it out which temporarily stops the danger. It definitely needs to go.

    Aegislash: I don't find this too much of a problem, hippo 100% counters most sets (barring special, weakness policy which it still takes on decently) and it takes minuscule damage from unboosted sacred swords/shadow sneaks. However if hippo is gone then it becomes a big threat. It can sweep unprepared teams by itself even without the best prediction thanks to its great defences. I'm 50/50 on aegi but if it is banned i'd say its because of the over-centralisation rather than power.

    Talonflame: Same as aegislash, most teams i've seen run heatran/ttar/rotom wash mainly for synergy but some for checks to talonflame. SR really hinders it. After switching in it gets in about 2-3 brave birds before it dies or what i've seen is the predicitable roost which is eq'd. BUT if you let it setup your team will be dented heavily. It's kinda like blaziken in a way doing tons of damage but ultimately hurts itself from recoil which does make it easier to ko. Im 50/50 on this although im leaning towards no ban.

    Mega-Kangaskhan: OMG this thing is so strong its unbelievable. Parental bond is way to overpowered. Fake out guarantees mega evolution and powerup punch is a free +2 and doing damage. Return destroys a lot but the thing i have found difficult to consider onmy set is eq or sucker punch. EQ gets around ttar easier whilst sucker punch can get around mega-gar but i run eq due to most teams run their gengar as mega. My kangaskhan somehow outspeeds gengar (i run max speed + jolly) and eq on the mega which destroys gar. I have even gotten around skarmory, 2 powerup punches then a return kills skarmory which is a big achievement. I vote ban.

    Manaphy: It can function even without rain support +3 SpA is no joke and with 100/100/100 defences is easily capable of setting up. Surf/Ice Beam/Grass Knot do well together with good coverage but it is 2hko'd by faster threats. Thundurs-i can scare it out as one example. The sets i have faced are mostly tail glow and hardly and cm/rest. It is still powerful.
    I vote ban.

    Genesect: Continuing where it left off in gen 5 genesect is still running riot in this early metagame. I think that people still don't really know what pokemon has best sets/items this early in the meta so they resort to using staple pokemon. Genesect is one example, it can fit on any team and provide a majority of roles. Most set i have seen is scarfed however a few rock polish sets i have also seen. It did get banned for a reason and now its even better due to the steel typing being able to threaten fairies. I have seen more physical iron head sets mainly to threaten. It is still a big threat in this meta not having staple counters(clostest tran or assault vest ttar?). I vote ban.
     
  7. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    Then why haven't we banned Blaziken yet? Just about everyone wants it gone!!

    I also wouldn't care to retest Deo-S, but I'm unsure about what will happen if it does come in.
     
  8. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    I think Mega Kangaskhan definitely deserves a suspect. After a Power-up Punch it can pretty much wreck offensive teams. It breaks right through Dragonite's Multiscale, and a LOT of threats just die to +2 Sucker Punch because of Parental Bond. It also has excellent bulk and only one weakness, so you're not just taking it down quickly without a powerful Fighting move. Fighting-type in OU pretty much means Lucario (who doesn't outspeed before Mega Evolution, thus loses), Blaziken (who is debated for suspect itself) and Terrakion/Keldeo who can't switch in safely at all. Other checks include Ghost-types (iffy because of Scrappy before Mega Evolution, e.g. Gengar comes in and dies to Return) and Skarmory. I have seen Fire Punch Mega Kangaskhan before, which makes even Skarmory a questionable check (PuP on switch followed up by Fire Punch kinda hurts).

    I hear four-moveslot syndrome as an argument, though PuP+EQ/Fire Punch+Return+Sucker Punch covers pretty much most pokes. Fake Out is quite frankly a wasted moveslot on Mega Kangaskhan because people can easily switch out of it, and using PuP on the switchout is more beneficial in 90% of the possible scenario's. Worth noting that since Steel-types don't resist Dark anymore, the number of revenge killers that can take a +2 Parental Bond Sucker Punch is pretty abysmall. Yeah bulky Ghost-types like Jellicent and Trevenant wall it, but still. If those are the only solid counters then that's definitely a good reason to suspect Kangaskhanite.

    Also I've observed that a LOT of people run Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn nowadays instead of Lefties. Just an observation.
     
  9. .Rawr!

    .Rawr! c(°3°)כ

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    When X/Y started i ran a team with gengar/whimsicott in, so with a bit of prediction (switching to gengar for the incoming Pup and to Whimsi to encore megaKangas on EQ/Sucker punch) Megakangaskhan was maneagable. But after run other teams with no-ghosts mons in, i'm starting to see Megakangaskhan is very good, a bit too good maybe.
    Gonna continue to do some more tests, but im very hesitant about him at the moment.

    P.D: ban blaziken nao
     
  10. CAUSE & EFFECT

    CAUSE & EFFECT Member

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    There is a reason why many of the more experienced players refuse to assimilate to the XY OU tier. They are simply waiting for more competitive and realistic tiers to be created. Although it is still very early, the fact remains that there are simply too many broken and cheap pokemon that shouldnt belong in the OU tier at this time. Gengarite and Deoxys-N was barely the tip of the iceberg. Pokemon like MegaLucario and MegaKangaskhan are too centralizing. Im not sure if any of you know how suspect tests work. If a usage spreadsheet were to be created at this very moment of the top 100 players in the PO xy OU ladder, I assure you that M-Khan, M-Lucario, Genesect, Manaphy and Blaziken would all be in the top 5 usage. There is a damage log posted on Smogon that shows just how insanely powerful MegaLucario is. If you think you have a counter for the SD set you will run into the Nasty Plot set. You cannot prepare for that kind of unpredictability. It has Uber written all over it. The very fact that people are suggesting that only 4-5 ghost pokemon can wall M-Khan is the very definition of over-centralizing. The current OU tier will continue to be a laughing stock until changes are made that cater to the more competitive player.
     
  11. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Genesect can wear Venu down over time though unless it packs Synthesis, and it needs HP Fire (or at least Earthquake) to even threaten it. Between those, Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb, Substitute, Leech Seed, and maybe Sleep Powder too, it's very pressed for moveslots. D:

    Genesect does have very few checks and counters though.
     
  12. Roku

    Roku sup nerds

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    The set I've been using is Roar / Synthesis / Earthquake / Power Whip on a stall team, and it's worked fairly well for me. Overall I think there are a few roles that Mega Venu can fill, and 4mss only becomes an issue if you try to make it do more than one at once. Overall it can check Genesect nicely if you want it to.
     
  13. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Anything completely walled by Trevenant shouldn't be banned. It has terrible 4MSS because it needs to decide on running Earthquake or Shadow Claw. Forego Sucker Punch and you're taking down 1 enemy pokemon max due to a ton of things being faster than you counting all the scarfers and other extremely powerful priority, and Power Up Punch is its claim to fame. If it was like Inverse where all you needed was to just Power Up Punch and spam Return then that would definitely be too much.

    However, the simple fact that a ghost type can render Power Up Punch useless means that Kanga's always going to run into trouble. Shadow Claw from it, without PUP's boost(yes I made that acronym/shortening up just now) and without Life Orb, won't KO the more bulky ghosts that can burn it, rendering it completely neutered. And again, there's the fact that it can't simply power up then spam Return. Ghosts are way too useful in this metagame to say that they're not a common problem for Kanga either.
     
  14. Sun Yo

    Sun Yo New Member

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    Rotom-H basically resists every move Genesect's commonly carry, even HP Ground. Although it's not as practical as Heatran, at least you can try and grab some momentum back with a scarfed Volt Switch.
     
  15. ZoroDark

    ZoroDark i know everything

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    Trevenant is a decent counter, but you can't go as far as saying that Kanga is completely walled by it. Scrappy Return actually does quite a bit to the most common Trevenant set (don't question me why that's used most because it doesn't look all that great to me but anyway) 252 Atk Kangaskhan Return vs. 0 HP / 252 Def (Trevenant): 127-150 (40.83 - 48.23%) -- 10.94% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock. A well played Kangaskhan can fire off a hit, switch to something that doesn't mind WoW and then finish it off next time. Usually Kanga will mega evolve at one point before you bring in Trevenant, but Scrappy is a realistic scenario you need to be careful for.

    But yeah the main problem is that Ghost types are the only way to stop it and even then you got to be careful. The fact it KOs one of OU's best physical walls Hippowdon with PUP (listening to pnerd!) + Return perfectly describes its power. Opposed to some other mons who do this to Hippowdon, Mega Kanga is, maybe even more, threatening to offense as well with its combination of bulk, speed and priority.

    The fact that its only few counters are Ghost types which Kanga even has a way around, paired with the very short list of checks makes me think it's too strong for OU.
     
  16. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    GO US-EAST
    Genesect isn't as broken anymore in my opinion. He has plenty of checks/counters, such as: Heatran, Chandelure, Rotom-H, Blaziken (why are you still OU), Infernape, Mega-Venu, Vaporeon, Talonflame, Chansey, Volcarona, Gastro* (plenty of other lower tier mons work as well, but Gastro is more viable in ou than most), Jellicent (this may drop to LU/UU), Sableye is alright. Rock type mons also do very well, unfortunately there are very few of them in OU, Rhyperior is alright and Terrakion does well against it as well. Bulky Ghosts stop it as well, but there are very few in OU.

    Genesect isn't as broken as some of you are making it out to be. Yes, you have to run something that stops it, but they aren't unviable mons. He has more checks/counters than things like Volc/Terrak did tbh. Genesect is very strong thanks to download and can run many sets:
    Shift Gear (I've seen this a total of 0 times, only heard about it)
    Banded (I've seen this once)
    Scarf (most common)

    But you aren't forced to run different counters for each. In fact, if it is banded or shift gear there are many many more counters/checks. Is it annoying to face? Yes. Is it uncounterable, lolno.
     
  17. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    The same applies to a ridiculously high number of Pokemon in almost every tier of every Gen (Celebi in ADV OU, Heatran in DPP OU, Terrakion in BW2 OU, Victini in BW2 UU, etc). You are right, it has been discussed in suspects thousands of times, but the thing is that "having to play around X Pokemon" alone, which is exactly what your post is, has never been enough to ban anything, specially not an instaban.

    Because I'm not the one leading OU.

    Going to be blunt and say this post is extremely useless. You are basing your argument on nonexistent statistics, one damage calc that you didn't even bother posting, the word overcentralizing like if it meant anything and what you say is the opinion of some players.

    Also if "more experienced" players "refuse" to play XY OU, then their opinion is simply not valid. Last time "more experienced" players had a say in tiering Pokemon like Rampardos and every Regi Pokemon, including Regigigas, were in BL.

    Not sure if the first part of your post is serious or not but just in case I want to say that's wrong, being walled by one Pokemon doesn't mean anything.

    Well if you are running Trevenant to counter Kangaskhan (obviously it counters a fuckload of other threats, because Ghost / Grass is amazing), you should run a set better fit for that job:

    252 Atk Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Trevenant: 115-136 (30.74 - 36.36%) -- 81.25% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    Additionally if you don't automatically Mega evolve when you have a chance, the number of Pokemon that can outspeed Kanga later on increases.

    It's only few counters are Ghost-type Pokemon (and Skarmory and Physically Bulky Ferrothorn), but it does have a good number of checks that nearly every team uses: Landorus-T, Terrakion, Keldeo, Garchomp, Mega Lucario, Breloom, etc. I do believe Mega Kangaskhan is a strong force in the current metagame, but it definitely isn't the unbeatable power house some people are claiming it is.
     
  18. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    Landorus-T is going to do what to Mega Kangaskhan? After you switch in on Power-up Punch this happens:
    +1 252 Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Return vs. 248 HP / 172 Def Landorus-T: 331-391 (86.87 - 102.62%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Can't even 2HKO back without SR.
    0 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 150-177 (42.61 - 50.28%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO

    Terrakion and Keldeo are valid checks but you have to be very careful switching them in, or they just die. Not to mention they don't get a whole lot of usage because Blaziken is still OU and outclasses both. Please argue if you think that Terrakion or Keldeo are better than Blaziken, though.

    Garchomp can also switch in and come out on top if it's Life Orb/CB/Rocky Helmet.

    Lucario doesn't outspeed Mega Kangaskhan naturally so you can't classify that as a check. You'd have to Mega Evolve it before your opponent even brings in Kangaskhan to stand a chance. Mach Punch/Vacuum Wave isn't even close to an OHKO.

    Breloom can't switch in on Power-up Punch and live a Sucker Punch. Mach Punch doesn't OHKO. Revenge killer at best.

    Out of those only Terrakion, Keldeo and Garchomp can switch in and reliably threaten it out. I wouldn't consider three pokes a good number of checks, especially when only one of them is commonly used opposed to what you say.

    Also nobody said Mega Kangaskhan is unbeatable. I've only seen people say that it has very few checks. Unless I missed someone I don't think anyone claimed it's unbeatable. It isn't though, but quite frankly it is very hard unless you run bulky Ghost-types or a powerful Fighting-type on every team.
     
  19. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    Right, because Mega Kangaskhan is always at +2 when you switch in, it is always at 100% and Scarf Landorus-T cannot be used in XY OU

    252 Atk Landorus-T Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 284-336 (80.68 - 95.45%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Early usage stats means absolutely nothing, I told you that in this same thread. Also I don't see what's the point of comparing Terrakion and Kedeo with Blaziken, when they are three different Pokemon and the only similarity between them is that they share the fighting type.

    So Mega Kangaskhan always evolves before Mega Lucario does, therefore it isn't a check. Are you serious right now?

    Breloom can switch into two of its four moves and kill it with Mach Punch after SR 50%~ of the times (100% with Fighting Gem, but it isn't allowed right now). Also using Sucker Punch against a Breloom means you are risking getting put to sleep.

    Et cetera (in English; /ɛtˈsɛtərə/; Latin pronunciation: [ɛt ˈkeːtɛra]) (rare: etceteros) (abbreviation: etc. or &c) is a Latin expression that means "and other things", or "and so forth."

    I mentioned a handful of Pokemon that can check (also known as play around) Mega Kangaskhan in certain situations, not all of them. Learn to read things properly and stop reading just what you want to read before arguing; this is the exact same thing you did to reply to every argument against Talonflame's brokeness.

    Nobody used the word unbeatable, but things like that are implied in any argument saying Mega Kangaskhan needs an instaban.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2013
  20. Elite's Aaron

    Elite's Aaron Sinnoh's Elite

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    Hi, I would like to vote on removing Mega Blaziken... that thing has 460 attack if you're 252 adamant nature and 100 base speed, which would make it 299 assuming you dumped the rest in speed. Plus he can baton pass his stat boosts which just makes him uber. regular blaziken was banned for a good reason, and mega blaziken is just even more uber.

    I don't like Genesect. his u-turn is the most powerful and annoying and he can have such different sets its nearly impossible to predict what its going to do.
     
  21. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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  22. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    These are all of the possible checks that Hikari mentioned and quoted:
    [SECRET]
    I think that's more than a handful or shaky 0.o[/SECRET]
    Also, do note that MegaKahn is rarely at max health seeing that it has to use Power-Up Punch on the first turn, so revenge killing isn't out of the question.
     
  23. GoldeenRose

    GoldeenRose New Member

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    I don't see Mega Kangashkan as a problem. It only becomes really dangerous when using power-up punch because of parental bound. Knowing that almost every Kahn uses it, the only thing you need to counter him is prediction and a fast or bulky pokemon with foul play. That's all.


    P.S BAN BLAZIKEN.
     
  24. IRunCurseBidoof

    IRunCurseBidoof New Member

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    Blaziken and Mega Kangha need the ban. They have just a too much going for them. More certainly than any other pokemon in the ou pool right now. I think everyone agrees on blaziken. Maybe without the abillity to baton pass, maybe without swords dance, maybe without high jump kick, maybe without the ability to be special or physical and definitely without speed boost there's an argument for this guy to stay in the pool. But now its a question not of whether i should use blaziken or not but what kind of blaziken should i use.

    Mega kanga has a few drawbacks. No good item, no scrappy in mega and the inability to use other megas. The list ends there though. He is the ultimate revenge killer and with his 100 base speed it is no stretch that he will land the kill unscathed and with plus 2 attack. Scrappy means that one power up punch is guarenteed and with the abillity to see your ops pokemon you can make the call whether to evolve or not. The trouble is beating him when hes plus 2 and full hp. Talonflame is no good. Thundurus twave jsut means, in most cases, ur death and then a sucker punch at least on the next poke. The strategy is just to play the game of attrition and hold kanga until the few pokemon that can even scrath him are gone. Lets be clear. He's not unbeatable. Blaziken(cough imba) and mega lucario(maybe also imba) shut him down well. I disagree with trying to wall him unless said wall has a status infliction. Skarm for example just gets hammered and does nothing. But hes all around too good. His movepool stats and abilities push him over the top. He doesnt need to pump up. Hell, he doesnt even need to sweep. But Ill be damned if I wont get at least two of your pokes if not your whole team. You often have to heavily outplay your opponent just to come up even against it. Again I fail to see why he shoudn't be on every team. Especially if blaziken goes.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2013
  25. inigomontoya

    inigomontoya Slightly Less Well-Known Member

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    The gengarite ban is good, but there are teams that have no problem with it. Avalugg (Sturdy + EQ) is a beautiful counter, and Goodra (Max spdef) works ok as well. An second thought... IT LOSES ITS GROUND IMMUNITY! Im a guy who runs EQ on basicly anything, so for me, putting a super effective attack on pokemon that gengar likes to switch into (Gardevoir, anything with low SpDef) will cause it problems. Or a Sucker punch. on ANYTHING.

    Blaze is not as broken as Gengar (again, I run Super effective attacks on almost evry poke) but still needs to be ubered up. Baton pass chains are fun to shatter (weakness policy sturdy Avalugg is a GOD) but...

    Kanghaskhan, While not as broken as in Inverted, still is powerful. However it is not banworthy. It wrecks my team (A horde of sashed ice types, jk), but is easy to counter (Enter Ageislash)
     
  26. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    As everyone else feels, Blaziken is too much imo. But people have stated why (and the one who makes these decisions atm knows why >:O) so I won't go for it.

    Mega Kanga is a prime Pokémon to call broken when you have horrific broken logic and haven't actually played the game, seriously it's prime pickings for seeming broken on paper but actually being just good in practice. Power Up Punch has the exact same power as Rock Smash, it's a weak attack, Parental Bond or not. Assuming it always gets a kill and nets Kanga to +2 with 100% health is a disgusting way to approach a potential suspect/ban. Seriously what. Also Scrappy normal Kanga is extremely specific, it's a thing, but Kanga's stats are so much better in Mega that you're going to want to get that going ASAP, you will be out-sped by an even bigger chunk of the meta if you don't as-well. Skarm, Ferro, Rough Skin Chomp, Breloom, Lando-T, Ghost Tree, Aegislash (although EQ sets donk it), some Gar sets (sub or WoW), Terrakion, Keldeo, Blaziken (although broken checks not-broken here!).

    As for Genesect, not sure, personally I think it's not gotten any better since last gen, while it has gained some checks nothing with a decent U-Turn really has any counters when someone is trying to argue it broken, but I don't think it's broken atm as it struggles to pick off some popular Pokémon like Heatran, Volcarona and others. Also Assault Vest allows some things like Tornadus-T to prove an interesting check to it.
     
  27. Shadowheart

    Shadowheart Free Hitmonlee

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    Out of all the pokes that have been mentioned only Skarm can switch in safely 100% of the time and even the you're forced to run rocky helmet over lefties. I acknowledge MegaKanga has its checks but they are all very shaky, almost always either requiring some element of prediction or a sacrifice so the revenge kill can occur. I agree it's stupid to assume that kanga is at 100% the whole time, but it's equally stupid to assume that megakanga is going to stay in on an obvious revenge-kill. If your only check is a revenge killer Kanga is still going to cause huge amounts of damage before it dies in the hands a battler who is not monstrously retarded.

    The potential for it to run crunch to beat its bulky ghost counters(anyone who has been playing higher up the ladder will know that this does actually happen) and to hit ghosties with scrappy means it is nigh on uncounterable.

    At the moment megakanga has less viable counters that blaziken. The fact that you can run 3 checks on a team and still lose through unpredictability really suggests that this thing need to go
     
  28. Big Bad Booty Daddy

    Big Bad Booty Daddy Big Poppa Pump

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    I'd like to post on behalf of a few Pokemon that I think are broken through my experiences playing Gen 6.

    Blaziken

    Blaziken is first on my list, Blaziken is broken because of its ability to threaten an incredible amount of the metagame and support teams with ease by passing speed boosts, and is able to pass on Swords Dance boosts. Blaziken is incredibly hard to counter, since it runs a plethora of sets that are very good. I.e Landorus / Gliscor take on the physical set a bit better than Mixed, since mixed runs HP Ice usually. Does this mean that it can run 6 moves at the same time? No. But it means that essentially it's impossible to know what your counters are in the beginning of the battle.

    I believe mixed is the most broken set of all. Although Baton Pass is able to pass Speed Boost +'s to other deserving Pokemon, Mixed Blaziken is able to break through a large part of the metagame with relative ease. Although there are clear counters to this set, i.e Jellicent/Tentacruel/Slowbro. Thanks to Protect/Speed Boost, it allows Blaziken to outpace 99% of the un-scarfed OU Metagame after a Protect, it's basically near impossible to counter Blaziken without using the aforementioned Pokemon, so people have to rely on using priority in order to beat this set. In order to counter this Blaziken, you need to run 1 one of 3 Pokemon, or rely on multiple priority and keep that Pokemon alive in order to beat Blaziken.

    I believe Blaziken should be banned, since the only sure-fire way of beating it is running one of the few Pokemon I mentioned, or using priority, and those aren't 100% counters. Since you have to focus on keeping those mons at full health the whole game, since with prior damage, Blaziken is able to 2hko them.

    I'll post other arguments for other mons eventually~
     
  29. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    252 Atk Kangaskhan Crunch vs 252 HP/252 Def Jellicent: 42.08% - 49.5%

    That's with a modified stat, I set that to 125 attack with this damage calculator. Please actually run some calcs or something before throwing out baseless "facts" like these.

    And that turns into a 5HKO with WoW and Leftovers recovery. Trevenant is roughly the same damage, but has to use Horn Leech+Leech Seed so has a slightly rougher time.

    I also fail to see how a pokemon with only one free move slot to change around is unpredictable. Return / PUP / Sucker Punch is mandatory for it to even be considered broken, and the decision between Crunch or Earthquake inevitably turns into a "damned if you do damned if you don't" choice. Either way you lose some offensive and defensive checks while gaining about the same amount. Comparing it to Blaziken is simply ridiculous.

    It also can't even switch to Scrappy whenever it wants to, postponing that mega evolution leaves you wide open to a number of different pokemon. Having a +1 Crunch really doesn't do anything as you'll end up burned afterwords either way. With Parental Bond you still don't OHKO.
     
  30. Kland

    Kland One true god

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    yer I support the blaziken ban...just purly I find non mega kens more of a problem to deal with as there hp ice does a lot to my walls and generally kills them after rocks. secondly kanga should not be banned it barely runs crunch and it generally gets killed by it's own ability vs rocky helm users.

    as for genesect it shouldn't be banned we have talonflames running around and soon to be mega latios/latias which we might need genesect to check. also sect is limited to it's 4 move syndrome and can be delt with scouting and prediction(please don't complain if your getting out played you deserve to lose).

    kyurem b should be looked at again. As talonflame will reduce scizor usage and scizor decrease makes Kyu -ALOT- stronger, however we also did get aeglislash so.... it MIGHT need a suspect page


    deo-s: needs a retest imo due to defog nerf however I see it running a life orb revenge set which is one of the reasons it was banned.
     
  31. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    Out of those only Terrakion, Keldeo, Trevenant, Garchomp, Skarmory and Ferrothorn are concrete, valid checks as I showed previously. The first two are hardly ever used (yeah usage stats mean nothing blabla, but with Terrakion at #72 and Keldeo at #114, I mean, that's pretty damn low. Even if they aren't very accurate whatsoever you still can't argue that they are commonly used because they're not, especially compared to Kangaskhan at #5). They also can not switch in safely, making them pretty poor checks overall.

    The latter two are susceptible to Fire Punch, making even them rather unreliable. And yes people use Fire Punch for stuff like Skarmory, Trevenant, Forretress, Ferrothorn, Scizor etc. So don't say that it's a poor choice.

    Also, please enlighten me with which pokes outspeed Kangaskhan, can take a +2 Parental Bond Sucker Punch, and OHKO back. Ofcourse not including the pokes Hikari listed before. I'm personally having a hard time finding anything besides Blaziken.

    Slower pokes that can take a hit and retaliate are few and far between. Max HP/Max Def Hippowdon gets 2HKO'd by PuP + Return and can't do anything back. You have to resort to pokes like Unaware Quagsire just to stand somewhat of a chance.

    CB Scizor does 54% max to Mega Kangaskhan and takes at least 80% from +2 Sucker Punch. I don't know man, but that doesn't sound like a great way to check it to me.
     
  32. geezer

    geezer Member

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    I think that the pokemon mentioned here are indeed very powerful. Although there are counters to all of them. Sucker punch kanga is countered by all ghosts. And kanga with crunch is easily checked. Blaziken is hard countered by jellicent and checked by talonflame and azumarill. Aegislash is imo not broken at all and will almost never sweep. I wont even bother mentioning all its checks as there are too many. Hard counters are on the other hand hard to find, but alot of pokemon do decently well against it. Talonflame is not even that good. The fact that it cant do shit to rock types and some steel types+ rotom-w should be enough evidence of that. A pokemon, I however find to be almost broken is MegaLucario because the combination of the physical and special set has no counters. The surprise factor is also a bit too much. I mean, I dont wanna switch my gliscor into a flash cannon. It is however manageable, as with all the other pokes. IMO NO BAN to any of them. If one should be banned it should be either blaziken or lucario
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 14, 2013
  33. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    Blaziken has been banned from OU.
     
  34. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Yay! Now ban Genesect - it is every bit as broken as it was last time.
     
  35. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    Blaziken probably was the last "emergency" ban. Tiering will work normal from now on.
     
  36. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    Sorry for nitpicking but while you did modify the base stat correctly, you forgot to take Parental Bond into account. This is the accurate calc, assuming Adamant max Atk Mega Kangaskhan:

    252 Atk Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 252-298 (62.53 - 73.94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Solid 2HKO on the switch. Maybe you actually meant to calc regular Kangaskhan, but it doesn't make much sense to stay regular form and use Crunch over Return, when you run Crunch specifically so you can hit Ghost types when you are Mega Kangaskhan.

    Also he probably meant that Mega Kangaskhan has good coverage moves to hit potential checks. Fire Punch nails Ferrothorn, Trevenant, Scizor and Skarmory, while Crunch hits Trevenant, Jellicent and Gengar. Earthquake hits Aegislash and so on. You're never sure which coverage move it will run and you always risk losing your only check to it. Yes, lacking the right coverage move leaves you open to being wallled/revenge killed, but the danger goes both ways. If it has the right move for a certain check it wins, the wrong move it loses.

    Also I've noticed that the amount of checks to Mega Kangaskhan is pretty limited. Revenge killing is extremely difficult because +2 Parental Bond Sucker Punch OHKO's most common Scarfers like Genesect, Gengar, Rotom-W etc. Even if they manage to survive, e.g. ScarfChomp, they can't KO back unless you're severely weakened. With Blaziken now gone you have to rely on Terrakion or Keldeo to outspeed and reliably revenge kill. Without STAB Fighting moves and resisting Sucker Punch you're not reliably revenge killing Mega Kangaskhan because of its insane power and incredible bulk. In all other cases Kangaskhan has to be weakened to some extent to be revenge killed, with Priority. And even that is unreliable:

    252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 162-192 (46.02 - 54.54%) -- 56.25% chance to 2HKO

    If you switch out against Mega Kanga, it gets a free +2 with PuP. You need to do over half if you stay in before dying to PuP + Return/Sucker Punch if you want to hope to revenge kill with Scizor. Also, if Scizor takes SR damage, you have to take this calc into account:

    +2 252 Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 278-328 (81.04 - 95.62%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Talonflame (Adamant max attack) can revenge kill a weakened Mega Kangaskhan because it outspeeds naturally so it bypasses Sucker Punch:

    252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 235-277 (66.76 - 78.69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 204-242 (57.95 - 68.75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 157-186 (44.6 - 52.84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    CB Azumarill doesn't even do over half with Aqua Jet:

    252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 120-142 (34.09 - 40.34%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    Here's CB Dragonite:

    252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite ExtremeSpeed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 147-173 (41.76 - 49.14%) -- 82.42% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    I could continue, but you get the idea now. Revenge killing Mega Kangaskhan after a PuP is difficult. However, there are certain pokes that can wall its moves. I mentioned Quagsire as a check earlier, but after calcing it I have to take that back. I thought max hp/max def with Unaware to ignore PuP's boost would be enough, but apparently not:

    252 Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 213-252 (54.19 - 64.12%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Here's a list of pokes that wall Mega Kangaskhan, often depending on the set it runs:

    Ferrothorn
    Rocky Helmet Garchomp
    Skarmory
    Trevenant
    Jellicent
    Dusknoir/Dusclops
    Sableye
    Aegislash
    Gengar

    Ehhh. Please by all means help me find more, I'm having a hard time here.
     
  37. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    Care to explain how Kanga is always free to set up to +2?

    You keep repeating the same thing multiple times, but you never elaborate on that. A Pokemon at +2 sure is deadly, but if we were to assume all Pokemon always have a free turn to setup, then half of the tier would be broken.

    Let's use the same logic with Terrakion:

    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 289-341 (88.37 - 104.28%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO
    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 325-383 (77.38 - 91.19%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 244 HP / 40+ Def Gliscor: 308-363 (87.5 - 103.12%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO
    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 380-448 (94.29 - 111.16%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO
    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 422-499 (104.45 - 123.51%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +1 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 172 Def Landorus-T: 289-341 (75.85 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 530-624 (148.04 - 174.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    A lot of impressive calcs with only two STAB moves! but how do you set up without getting crippled and how hard if for you to sweep after that?

    Damage calcs of a Pokemon at +2 don't mean anything by themselves, you have to explain how that Pokemon setups, how many changes does it have to set and how hard is stopping it afterwards. Assuming Kanga is always at +2 because the opponent always gives you a free turn, that it always predicts right, that it always have a free switch-in and that it always have the right coverage move is plain ridiculous. You can call any decent Pokemon broken by that logic.

    Let's use a Pokemon like Hippowdon (because it "can't do anything to Kanga") as an example. What happens if you switch Kanga into Hippo?

    0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 118-141 (33.52 - 40.05%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    That's 52.27% minimum with SR + SS damage and that's assuming you mega evolved already, otherwise

    0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 144-169 (40.9 - 48.01%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    There you have an example of a slower Pokemon that can easily take a hit and retaliate. "Why would you switch Kanga into Hippo?" This is just an example, but is not like you can setup with Kanga on Hippo anyway even if you have a 100% safe switch in, because it can Roar Kanga and unboosted Return doesn't 2HKO.

    I'm not even arguing against Kanga suspect, I'm just tired of the absurd exaggerations people use to backup their arguments. If you want to argue about how broken something is, do it properly instead of posting a bunch of calcs at +2 and implying that absolutely everything will always go your way.
     
  38. IRunCurseBidoof

    IRunCurseBidoof New Member

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    The thing about genesect is he has no good stabs. Not only are bug and steel type lackluster aggro types to begin with, the 90 and 80 max power are low. While you can argue that download makes up for this its not reliable. It certainly is slippery and versatile but its 99 speed is a real problem. And even though its movepool is gigantic, at the end of the day it can only have 4 moves. Similarly, only attack or special attack can be trained. I find that, when choice scarfed, even if i choose right, I'm countered and in a worse position. Sr, sticky web and spikes also cause problems. When I'm not choice scarfed, I find myself praying my opponent doesn't attack me, as almost all sweepers outspeed and deal serious damage. It is not like kanga where only a specific type of poke can counter. Almost any poke can counter depending on the play.
     
  39. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    @Hikari The difference between Terrakion and Mega Kangaskhan is that Mega Kanga only has one weakness, much better bulk, better power with Parental Bond, strong Priority (!). As well as other tiny things that make a huge difference, like Scrappy before Mega Evolving, hitting through subs with Parental Bond, no drawbacks on its STAB etc.

    Terrakion at +2 can be revenge killed by countless scarfers because of its exploitable weaknesses: Ground, Fighting, Steel, Water, Grass, Psychic and Fairy. There are pokes that naturally outspeed and KO it like Latios, Noivern or Greninja. Mega Kangaskhan can kill those pokes with Sucker Punch before they can do anything. Even if they would somehow hit Mega Kanga, its so bulky that it can shrug it off and continue to inflict damage.

    Now you also ask about the ease of setting up with Mega Kangaskhan. I explained how hard it is to stop in my previous post well enough I think so I won't elaborate anymore on that. Like I said, Mega Kangaskhan has only one weakness and excellent bulk. It can afford to tank a hit and get off a PuP, even against a resist because you can follow up with Sucker Punch if it's faster or the appropriate coverage move. It can revenge kill a weakened poke and get a free +2 that way, this happens a lot in practice. Forcing switches is pretty easy for Kangaskhan thanks to its immediate power and coverage moves, e.g. Heatran/Aegislash fearing EQ, T-tar fearing PuP, Goodra who can't do significant damage back, Genesect locked into pretty much any move, Greninja fearing PuP, Excadrill fearing EQ, and the list goes on. Even if Mega Kangaskhan gets weakened in the process, it is only prone to being revenge killed by a small list of walls that I posted previously (which is a giveaway, they are checks to Mega Kanga), Scarfers that live a +2 Sucker Punch (not a big list I assure you) and kill from the amount of health Kanga is at (not a given considering its amazing bulk), faster Fighting-types and faster Priority.

    From there you either have one of the aforementioned checks, or have a very big chance of losing. Scarfers die to priority Sucker Punch with almost no exceptions (e.g. ScarfChomp). Return + EQ coverage kills even the bulkiest walls like Hippowdon, again the only exceptions being the aforementioned checks and maybe some other obscure pokes that didn't cross my mind. I think I got most of them but feel free to add to the list. Priority can potentially be effective but it's just too unreliable. Azumarill and Scizor are not quite strong enough and risk dying to +2 Sucker Punch after SR. CB Talonflame and CB Dragonite can accomplish something, but even then, they are revenge killers at best.

    I don't think I exaggerated anything. I think I posted one +2 Mega Kanga calc in my whole post which had quite a few of other calcs. Everything was relevant and I never implied that everything will always go Mega Kangaskhans way. At most I said that even if things don't fully go its way, e.g. it has to take a hit to setup and thus get weakened, it's still very hard to revenge kill. Which is true in my opinion and I backed it up with calcs and reasonable arguments.

    Then again it doesn't sound like that was specifically directed at me, so I hope I'm correct in saying that.
     
  40. Lord Outrage

    Lord Outrage Banned

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    MEGA kangaskhan should be banned from ou.parental bond+power up punch+a priority in sucker punch.you can only counter him with mach punch(conkeldur),prankester,scarfed rotom with will-o-wisp.With fire punch ferrothorn and skarmory are no longer counters.Have you noticed that sibleye is over over used in 6 gen?you can ask the players that use him.it's only to counter mega kangaskhan.When it comes to put one pokemon out of 6 specially to counter one threat this threat should be BANNED
     
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