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Kangaskhanite Suspect Discussion

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Discussion' started by Halsey, Nov 14, 2013.

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  1. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    Discuss the possibility of Kangaskhanite being banned from the XY OU tier. Use this thread to discuss Kangaskhanite's effect on the metagame. Talk about the different sets it can use, good partners and potential checks/counters. State your opinion on whether you think Kangaskhanite should be banned or if it should stay in the XY OU tier but make sure your posts are backed up by experience and knowledge. Anyone who makes post based on theorymon risks being infracted. This thread will be up for a minimum of two weeks. If a vote is needed, this topic will be bumped, and details will be provided.
     
  2. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    First of I'll describe Mega Kangaskhan in a nutshell. Normal-type is usually pretty average, but it also means that Kangaskhan has only one weakness. Together with its base 105/100/100 defenses, this means it's capable of setting up easily as it tanks neutral hits rather well. It also has access to great coverage moves to go alongside its Normal STAB like EQ, Crunch, Drain Punch and Fire Punch, allowing it to cover most pokemon in the end. It's ability Parental Bond gives it the equivalent of a Choice Band boost, however it is much more than that. It allows Mega Kanga to break through subs, Multiscale and most importantly: get two attack boosts with Power-up Punch.

    After a Power-up Punch Mega Kangaskhan sits at +2 attack, often at a respectable amount of health thanks to its natural bulk or even full health if the opponent was forced out. From there it is very difficult to stop unless you carry one of a small amount of checks, of which I'll list the most common ones: Gengar, Skarmory, Trevenant, Garchomp, Jellicent, Ferrothorn, Terrakion, Keldeo.

    Faster threats can often not revenge kill Mega Kangaskhan at +2 attack because of Sucker Punch. In fact the only commonly used pokes that can have been mentioned already: Garchomp, Terrakion and Keldeo. Walling Mega Kangaskhan is nearly impossible for non-Ghost types because of Power-up Punch and Parental Bond. Physical walls like Hippowdon and Quagsire don't stand a chance, as both are 2HKO'd by PuP+Return and Return respectively. Skarmory and Ferrothorn are the few exceptions that can, because Skarmory is immune to Mega Kangas most common coverage move Earthquake, while Ferrothorn can kill it with passive damage from Iron Barbs, Rocky Helmet and Leech Seed + Protect.

    Not even priority is a reliable way to stop Mega Kangaskhan. Scizor does 54% max with Bullet Punch, while risking an OHKO from +2 Sucker Punch after Stealth Rock. Dragonite, even with CB Extremespeed fails to do over 50%. Only CB/Life Orb Talonflame can do significant damage to Mega Kangaskhan, because it naturally outspeeds it so it doesn't have to worry about Sucker Punch.

    All of this leads me to say that Mega Kangaskhan is too powerful for OU, it's great bulk lets it setup with relative ease, and when that happens it's incredibly hard to stop. There is just not a sufficient amount of solid checks to justify Mega Kangaskhan staying in OU. I vote for a ban.
     
  3. Scatterbrain

    Scatterbrain You only live once*

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    God no. Trevenant and Gourgeist can setup on them since Sucker Punch won't phaze them. Kanga would have to run a Return/PuP/Sucker Punch/Shadow Claw set, which doesn't solve the Aegislash problem. Now you see the thing with King's Shield is that if a move makes contact, the Attack of the Pokemon goes down sharply (-2.) Earthquake doesn't make contact. Unless you want to use Return when you predict he's going to King's Shield and make him waste a turn.
     
  4. Kland

    Kland One true god

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    I vote not ban no where near broken for a few reasons: one it has 4 move syndrome and commonly doesn't run a fire move.

    the possible counters to kanga are:
    skarmory: skarm walls it's physical presense and takes fire punch quiet well if it even carries give this thing a rocky helmnet and kanga kills it's self
    Garchomp: I have been using a max def garchomp extremely well this gen, not only goes it wall kanga 100% it also walls physical agelislash, talons and scizor. with It's naturally huge def it can survive an ice punch and deals 62% back everytime kanga attacks
    Landy t:same effect as garchomp, however only a check and probably will be killed if not full health
    Ferrothorn: exactly the same as garchomp kills kanga if kanga attacks it.
    trevnant: blocks the most common set quiet well and burns kanga and generally is a bitch to kanga
    jellicent: same as above

    "It's ability Parental Bond gives it the equivalent of a Choice Band boost" this is wrong please learn maths. thanks
     
  5. Scatterbrain

    Scatterbrain You only live once*

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    The first attack is 100% and the second is 50%.

    Isn't Choice Band 1.5 (150%) physical moves? I must have missed something.
     
  6. omylord

    omylord Member

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    Last time i checked it IS a 1.5 boost, which is equivalent to a CB. Please teach me math so I can correct my ways.
    Also since Sucker Punch does not give you an attack drop when Aegislash goes for King's Shield, there is less need to run EQ now. Skarmory without leftovers is pretty easy to wear down and they can always run fire punch to kill it. If you feel like a defensive Garchomp fulfills its potential as a pokemon then by all means, go ahead. Also lol at the guy mentioning Shadow Claw when Kangaskhan learns Crunch--a set of Sucker Punch | Power-up Punch | Return | Crunch / Fire Punch is by far the most effective, with only Jellicent walling the Fire Punch version and letting it get past Trevenant/Gourgeist, Skarmory, and Ferrothorn with ease. Power-up punch followed by Return easily kills defensive behemoths such as Slowbro, Hippowdon, and Landorus-T with rocks up, so if this thing isn't broken I don't know what is. You're pretty much forced to predict around with a ghost type AND a fighting type/a bulky pokemon that can switch in and is strong enough to take it out in one hit while not dying to sucker punch.
    Always nice talking to you guys, please keep this thread entertaining

    edit: also when you say 4MSS essentially what you're saying is it has a lot of options it can run to screw you over if you guess wrong, so I don't see it as an argument supporting "its not broken".
     
  7. Kland

    Kland One true god

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    o right my bad I assumed it was 1/3 the damage as it was when I was testing. Sorry kanga generally dies to quickly vs me to notice the damages it does. my bad

    Edit: 4MSS, means you can scout around and learn it's set then screw it over because you know what it can't beat. Scouting is still possible to do.

    also defesnvie chomp is by far one of it's best sets it's more bulkier then ferro and a few other decent walls plus it has a huge pivot abillity
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2013
  8. omylord

    omylord Member

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    lmao of course it dies too quickly, not like all it needs is get 1 hit off in mega form for you to notice it is 1.5x or anything unless your pokemon straight up die. Also not everyone is a master of 50:50 like you, so its kinda impossible to scout around and not let a pokemon with access to a +2 while attacking and a free CB boost right off the bat to dent your whole team while "scouting".
     
  9. [VoD]Metabeast

    [VoD]Metabeast Well-Known Member

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    Sorry man, us mere mortals need Pokemon to be banned because we cannot be consistently successful with 50/50s (or 90/10s, for you); not everyone has the ability to constantly switch out and scout a Pokemon with a Choice Band boost with amazing coverage and insane power that has a chance to get to +2 with a Fighting-type attack. I'm sure that if I brought a Kyogre on you, you would bring out your Blaziken perfectly predicting my Scarf Ice Beam. I apologize man, we're not all at your skill level, and even at #1 on the ladder I cannot perfectly scout a Kangaskhan without it denting my whole team :<
     
  10. raver

    raver New Member

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    I have been destroyed by Kangaskhans lately, and I vote for a ban. If I opt to carry a ghost-type it can chose not to evolve right away and get the +2 anyways because of scrappy. Even if it suffers from the 4 moveslots syndrome that isn't enough excuse not to be banned. PuP+Return (I assume these two to be always used) and you're left with two choices:
    Crunch or Sucker punch - probably sucker punch, which makes Kangaskhan nearly impossible to revengekill. Steel types don't resist dark anymore, so at +2 a 80+40 power move is extremelly threatening. That makes it difficult for Genesect and Scizor to try and go for that. Dragonite's multiscale is useless.
    Earthquake or Fire punch: The actual question should be Skarmory or Heatran.
    Scrappy PuP is a feature that makes it even more broken. Switch into something that can't threaten you and you get a free swords dance while probably dealing a pretty decent damage.
    Some calculations to back me up:
    +2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 253-298 (78.32 - 92.26%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +0 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 664-784 (205.57 - 242.72%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +0 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 524-620 (152.76 - 180.75%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +0 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Fire Punch vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 148-176 (45.25 - 53.82%) -- 2.34% chance to 2HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 48+ Def Ferrothorn: 242-285 (68.75 - 80.96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 213-252 (54.19 - 64.12%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    as for revenge killing him:
    252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 283-335 (80.62 - 95.44%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    fails to take him down and:
    +2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 167-197 (63.74 - 75.19%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    So basicaly either you try to switch Breloom in anything and you're dead or you let something die, switch in and then Breloom is sacrificed so that other revenge killer can then take him down.
    252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 162-192 (46.15 - 54.7%) -- 58.59% chance to 2HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 139-164 (49.46 - 58.36%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    Scizor doesn't 2HKO 100% of the times and is 2HKOed in return provided there are rocks. If there are no rocks:
    +2 252+ Atk Choice Band (custom) Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 139-164 (49.46 - 58.36%) -- 98.83% chance to 2HKO
    98.83% chance. I'd risk that.
    252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite ExtremeSpeed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 147-173 (41.88 - 49.28%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 291-343 (89.81 - 105.86%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
    So I think that's quite enough to show how ineffective revenge killing is, at least with priority.
    Some people were discussing bringing Lugia for a ride on OU for a couple days and see what goes on, since it walls some threats right now, but that's not the case here:
    +2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lugia: 334-394 (80.28 - 94.71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lugia: 334-394 (80.28 - 94.71%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lugia: 319-376 (76.68 - 90.38%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lugia: 319-376 (76.68 - 90.38%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    I made most of my calculations assuming he's at +2, but let's face it, a regular player is enough to get that +2 with scrappy. Either you switch Volcarona in and prays for a burn (that will only cancel with his buff) or you're forced to sacrifice a lot just to stop him.
    BAN please
     
  11. Big Bad Booty Daddy

    Big Bad Booty Daddy Big Poppa Pump

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    (I understand Earthquake is used on Kanga but Crunch or Fire Punch is a better option in last moveslot)

    Like omylord said, Kangaskhan doesn't have a giant need to run Earthquake since it covers a lot more if you use Crunch, and the fact that Sucker Punch doesn't make you lose some of your attack, makes Crunch the superior move on Kangaskhan. The fact that there's no set counter to Kangaskhan is probably the biggest deal, people use 4MSS as a bad thing in most cases, but it clearly is a big deal if Kangaskhan has a choice of Fire Punch or Crunch, since not many Pokemon are able to counter both sets. Skarmory would be a counter to Fire Punch-less Kanga, and Jellicent counters Fire Punch Kanga, but there's a 50% chance in battle that it won't be able to wall Kanga, making it so that there's no surefire way to beat Mega Kangaskhan unless you are able to run both a counter to Fire Punch or Crunch Mega Kangashan.

    Mega Kanga's bulk is often left out, a Pokemon with uninvested 105/100/100 isn't likely to be dented hard unless hit by a Fighting-type move. Is it able to PUP anything at any time or come in with a +2 boost? Of course not, but it does allow Mega Kangaskhan to not be incredibly worried about physical or special attacks that aren't super effective, and is able to Power Up Punch most of the time, although the only Ghost-type able to switch-in most of the time is Jellicent, since Trevenant is 2HKO'd by both Crunch and Fire Punch, and Jellicent loses to Crunch Kanga if not at full health.

    I acknowledge the fact that Terrakion/Keldeo are two of the 'mons that are able to come in and are able threaten Mega Kangaskhan right away, but a lot of mons who plan on coming in and outpacing Mega Kangaskhan and do a lot of damage are usually hurt bad by Sucker Punch, and are sometimes even KO'd by it. (I apologize if I'm missing some Pokemon)

    Mega Kangaskhan has its flaws obviously, since it's not able to cover some counters with some movesets, and obviously can't run 5 moves like everyone believes it can. But it's inability to be scouted without getting a huge dent to your team, threaten the major OU Walls, and the helpful bulk makes it broken.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2013
  12. Laurel

    Laurel Well-Known Member

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    I'm just going to judge ubers based on if they are more or less broken then Landorus-I in BW2 OU.

    Mega Kangaskhan is less broken than Landorus-I was. Mega Kangaskhan has a plethora of checks and counters. Trevenant, Ferrothorn, Garchomp... Terrakion and Cobalion, both revenge easily and come in on Sucker Punch/Crunch and Return.

    Okay I understand once it gets some Power Up Punch boosts it's unstoppable but literally throw on a rocky helmet poke and priority and you will rarely have Kanga problems. If Khan had 5 move slots I'd say ban it, but it doesn't so it can never run fire punch or ice punch or whatever it wants for coverage without missing a key move.

    I really think we should talk about like Thundurus-I and Manaphy instead.
     
  13. omylord

    omylord Member

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    Since apparently a coverage move is not a valid argument to say that Trevenant and Ferrothorn aren't solid Kangaskhan checks...

    Thundurus-I is checked and countered by Scarf Terrakion, Scarf Tyranitar, Scarf Tyrantrum, Scarf Landorus/Landorus-T, Scarf Garchomp, Limber Scarf Hitmonlee, Mamoswine, Weavile, Gastrodon, Chansey, Lanturn, Ferrothorn
    Manaphy is checked and countered by Thundurus-T, Thundurus-I, Scarf Zapdos, Scarf Celebi, Scarf Shaymin, Chansey, Ferrothorn, Sap Sipper Azumarril, Empoleon

    next!

    btw where's the logic behind "since it is less broken than a pokemon that was voted uber last gen (which is also very arguable, not to mention they are two completely different mons that function differently), it must not be broken now!" ?

    shoutout to ßasedVictory the baseball champion, he knows what hes talking about hehe bwoi
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2013
  14. Kland

    Kland One true god

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    actually ferro is a viable check no matter what even if it gets fire punch, it lives and rebounds 62% damage back. so it doesn't matter if your ferro gets 2 hit it also kills the kanga. so Ferro is a viable check to kanga even if it has fire punch
     
  15. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    This is probably cherry picking at this point, but the fact that Kngaskhan can't just run 5 moves(or 6, 7 etc etc) and breeze through every single one of its counters and numerous checks is its biggest problem in regards to actually sweeping. If we were to ban pokemon for having one very good set that only needs 1 or 2 moves interchanged to make it have a different set of checks/counters half of OU would be banned; this is a trait shared by many OU pokemon in general and typically is what makes offensive pokemon OU in the first place.

    Just something about Kanga and the damage Parental Bond gives, it is equivalent to a Choice Band boost. So basically you do have a 125 Attack boosted by a band, all things considering. That would be frightening if other pokemon didn't have just as devastating mixed coverage, or just the raw power / move coverage(like Terrakion's naturally amazing coverage in only its STABs) to make up for no CB.

    First of all, let's get Kangaskhan's basic set out of the way. I'm sure we can safely assume that Kanga will be carrying PUP / Return(Frustration) / Sucker Punch as 3 of its four moves. Without PUP it's not close to broken at all while Sucker Punch is basically mandatory if you like keeping Kanga alive against more offensively inclined teams for more than 1 turn.

    Kangaskhan in particular has a peculiar case of 4MSS, though. It doesn't really decrease in effectiveness when you change that 4th move, but rather it can adapt to what its teammates can't handle. Have an annoying weakness to the ghost types of the tier barring Aegislash? Use Crunch, and with a little bit of smart play, maybe you won't kill them but you'll force the WoW or for them to Leech Seed / Recover the damage off, giving you a chance to gain momentum. Have a peculiar Heatran or Aegislash problem, and Ferrothorn can be whittled down by other members of your party? Just use EQ, as that takes care of them. Or do you just want to blast away Ferrothorn before it takes 80% of your health away by just taking attacks due to not having anything besides PUP to hit it SE and be able to do anything to Skarmory while also hitting Trevenant for decent enough damage? Well, Fire Punch is your move then! However...

    It still stands that with either Fire Punch or Crunch, Terrakion can come in and ruin your day. Mega Lucario, if already mega evolved, eats +2 Sucker Punch and KOs you with either Aura Sphere or Close Combat. Jellicent full stops anything Kangaskhan can throw at it barring Crunch, and even then it can at the very least live one and then burn Kangaskhan, essentially trading with it****. Gengar is actually still a legitimate pokemon to use right now, even though everyone's ignoring it with its stone being banned, and pretty much forces Kangaskhan into a prediction war in order to win. Completely destroys any variant not carrying Crunch, as you can't touch Sub Gengar with Sucker Punch - the second hit doesn't KO; Focus Blast does. Then there's your Garchomp and a slew of offensive pokemon that check Kangaskhan.

    Special mention goes to Sableye which just shuts down any Kangaskhan ever, even if you wait to Mega Evolve it. PUP is still a very weak move despite being awesome on the thing. Although Sableye's use in the current metagame is mildly questionable, only went through a couple test battles with it.

    **** Unless you manage to predict perfectly with Kangaskhan and PUP while in your Normal form, then Mega Evolve and Crunch the very next turn. But you literally have one chance in a match to do this, and unless that gambit succeeds, if you're forced out after that(by, say, mega luke or Terra) Jelly is pretty much free to burn you sometime later. Or you can predict the switch and get burned by a Jellicent user with balls of steel.

    Mega Kanga's definitely a huge threat and something you have to be careful around, it's just that with only 4 moves you can only do so much. And despite how anti-ban this post seems to be biased towards I can still see why people would find it overpowered. It's only set worth using is extremely straightforward, doesn't require too much prediction to use correctly and when played right can definitely leave some holes. However, that bulk everyone keeps mentioning doesn't hold up if the opponent decided to stay in for the initial PUP and cause some(potentially large) damage to it. Everyone seems intent on assuming the first thing anyone's going to do against it is immediately switch out, and the fact that kanga has no recovery at all does limit its survivability. 100/105/105 isn't something super bulky in OU, we've seen about the same defensive stats in this tier before and we still have very effective fighting types that Kanga does not want to meet up with in battle. Hell Gyarados pretty much has the same bulk factoring in Intimidate, and has the attack to match too.

    I also don't know why Terra isn't getting that much use. Sure, Aegislash hurts a little bit, but not like it dropped all that much in effectiveness.
     
  16. omylord

    omylord Member

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    252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan (+Atk) Fire Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Ferrothorn (+Def) : 89.77% - 105.68%
    37.5% chance to OHKO

    Your "check" takes 89.77% min from an unboosted Fire Punch. Notice the fact that it is max hp max defense which no one runs yet (prior to your enlightenment). Also it's not exactly a check if the end result is both of you dying in the exchange assuming you get the prediction right.

    Not entirely sure whether you did the same calc before boldly claiming that Ferrothorn lives, or you just theorymonned/pull that fact from the time you played against a kangaskhan with the 1.3 parental bond boost somewhere

    I can agree with most of this post, only thing I want to point out is a smart Kangaskhan player would send it out on a weakened Pokemon (a win condition that is not exactly hard to set up), so it won't really matter whether you stay in or switch out unless you have a ghost type. And yes, Sableye is actually the closest thing to a counter to Kangaskhan.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 15, 2013
  17. Kland

    Kland One true god

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    true but given the fact most kanga's don't run fire punch and if they do you both die anyway, it's pretty solid in the fact it did it's job and the 'threat' is gone
     
  18. omylord

    omylord Member

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    is this 'threat' supposed to mean Kangaskhan isn't really a threat?
    A big reason to why Fire Punch isnt prevalent is due to previous error in mechanics where sucker punch/return will give you a -2 attack when used on King's Shield Aegislash, therefore earthquake was deemed necessary. Also, the game is still very new so people are learning what set makes full use of Kangaskhan's potential. I don't even know what part of this you don't get: The BEST case scenario for you assuming you switch in Ferrothorn on a power up punch or return is both of you dying to Fire Punch, unless you want to do the 50:50 godly plays some more against a +2 Kangaskhan to a Fire resist, then take the following Sucker Punch and kill back. If it Fire Punches straight up, there is a good chance that you will die with SR up, and--I will trust your maths knowledge on this--the Kangaskhan will still live with 38%.
    By your logic I think rocky helmet Ferrothorn is a solid Talonflame check. I am no maths whiz but BB/FB recoil + rocky helmet + iron barbs = dead Talonflame am i right ?
     
  19. Kland

    Kland One true god

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    how the hell is the kanga at +2......if it's at +2 it dies.......ok I switch into kanga, for some reason it has the rare set of fire punch. It uses power-up punch it loses 62% it then uses fire punch it's dead....because it's taken 124% from recoil. and yes the ferro would kill the talon most likely with the recoil...which means yes ferro is a plausible way to check talon because of the huge recoil........

    ofc problems auto +2 his pokemon to deem them broken....wow I have a +6 all stat espeon which I just automaticly got what checks do you have? o wait none OMFG IT'S BROKEN because I always get my stat boosts
     
  20. omylord

    omylord Member

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    If YOUR OPPONENT gets the prediction right, he Fire punch as your Ferrothorn switches in, and does 89.77% minimum to a MAX MAX ferrothorn..............

    The +2 I'm talking about is if you decide to be a God or you're in the zone, and decides to save Ferrothorn the Fire Punch Kangaskhan check and just outplay the shit out of your opponent!

    lol? i'm done talking to you, not even sure why i did in the first place really

    also 62+62 = 124 confirmo gg
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2013
  21. Shadowheart

    Shadowheart Free Hitmonlee

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    I basically agree with everything liar said. There's been a lot of discussion here about how Kanga has 4MSS. While that's true to an extent, its versatility means it is almost impossible to reliably prepare for. Unless you have the right check/counter for the right set you're still in trouble, particularly if you're running a slower team. It can reliably net 1 or 2 kills a match and pummel through teams that can't fit a bulky ghost. As Liar said, the fact that most powerful priority/scarfers still can't KO after rocks makes it destructive against offensive as well as defensive teams.

    I accept its perhaps more borderline than Blaziken or Deoxys, but keep in mind that a central reason for ban those to was their unpredictability and ability to run different sets to deal with different counters. Kangaskhan, though slightly more restricted, still has enough versatility to take out specific counters where it needs to. The fact that you have to frequently play around it to beat it along with its unpredictability and power are the main factors driving me towards Ban
     
  22. Big Bad Booty Daddy

    Big Bad Booty Daddy Big Poppa Pump

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    Kland
    Might want to know your definition of a check.

    252 Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 284-336 (80.68 - 95.45%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    (Max/Max Defense Ferrothorn is God awful)

    (his is with 349 Attack Kangaskhan which is 125 without the + nature obviously. Good check buddy! Idc if it has Rocky Helmet and Iron Thorns, it's unable to beat Kangaskhan or check its set with Fire Punch.[/HIDE]

    Pokemonnerd:
    WHY DO YOU POST SUCH TL;DR FILLER GARBAGE (Jk, love you)
    [/HIDE]

    Fun debating with you Nerd~

    Pridy
    [/HIDE]
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2013
  23. Pridy

    Pridy Swerve.

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    Personally I agree that Kangaskhan[ITE] is quite a ways too much for OU right now and would like to see it banned, i think most points have already been pointed out by posters above me

    However just because a pokemon has no "pure counters" doesn't make it broken. There's a ton of pokemon that are perfectly fine in OU (well according to smogon and po tier leaders anyway) with no surefire counters
     
  24. hiphiphooray

    hiphiphooray New Member

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    4MSS is not always a bad thing. The ability to run multiple movesets is what makes Kangaskhan[ITE] such a strong threat. Free Choice Band, but it is also able to double crit and hit through subs (if the first breaks it). It can setup on Taunt users and from users behind a sub.

    While it may have a few counters, it can still destroy the majority of OU. One wrong prediction and your team is swept.
    Ban
     
  25. geezer

    geezer Member

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    I dont think its is OP. I am 3rd on the ladder atm and I have no problems with it. If it runs Sucker punch ghosts wall it. If it runs crunch or fire punch it is easily checked by alot of things. Although I agree it is maybe the most powerful poke in OU right now. And to be sure you want to always have a fighting type and a ghost type on your team. But i think you would want those types on your team anyways, as they are really good types in general.
     
  26. GoldeenRose

    GoldeenRose New Member

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    I will say what i said before: the only people that see Kanga as a problem are n00bs. Close combat: OHKO. Superpower: OHKO. Ghost type: KO. Foul play (if boosted): OHKO.

    Don't ban it.
     
  27. Forum Name

    Forum Name Still unknown

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    Why has nobody mentioned Mandibuzz? It is a complete champ this gen, foul play craps on kanga left and right, resisted Sucker Punch, amazing bulk, speed and a recovery move (possibly even a hazer).

    Anyway, there is a HUGE lack of surefire counters for MegaKhan, (I doubt there are some real counters, maybe Carbink) but there is a lot of checks (under some conditions even a counter), like the mentioned Musketeers, Aegislash, Garchomp, Ferrothorn, Trevenant, Gengar, Gourgeist, Jellicent, Lucario, Skarmory and some that haven't been mentioned like Gliscor, Quagsire, Hippowdon, Genesect (not sure on this one) and possibly some theoretical ones like Mew, Klefki and Togekiss (Rhyperior maybe?). What I'm trying to say is that with correct plays you can beat MegaKhan.

    Also, for the people that say you need a specific mon to counter MegaKhan and that it eats up your slots, it shares a lot of its checks with other mons, like Lucario or Aegislash.

    I think it should stay.
     
  28. CraZy RudOlF

    CraZy RudOlF New Member

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    So at the moment I am number 4 (#SWAG #YOLO #Cut4bie) on the ladder, and I think that mega Kanga is too much for OU. While it certainly is dealable by slapping a rocky helmet on a chomp. However if you are doing this you are using something soledly too counter it, and even then it is not a secure "check". Kanga also gets Knock off (which I am surprised has not been mentioned) which can make Rocky helmet a unsecure "counter" too Kangaskan. Using Mega kanga will basically make it a 50/50 whenever you switch into your "check" (which usually cant switch into kanga at all). And if you stay with your Pokemon in order too safely stop it from sweeping, you basically loose one mon every time kang gets out which is not too hard too do concidering his strong bulk.

    Even though it has its "checks" that is highly dependant on what set the player chooses too run. You basically have too run at least 2 checks/counters too kanga based on what moves he is using, and even then he will 50% of the time get a kill on one of your checks no matter how much you try too prepare for it, which is way too strong for OU. Many of his checks might also not fit into a team you make, (you cant slap a trevenant or gourgeist into a very offensive team).

    You can't deny that mega Kang alongside other megas like Lucario, Charizard X and Blaziken (both mega and regular) are much stronger than other pokemons in OU, and I don't like the fact that using one of these, even though they are a part of the game, is basically like allowing too use a Uber. I also don't like that the game is forcing you too use a mega, or else you will be at a huge disadvantage against your opponent.

    I say ban it.
     
  29. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    Mandibuzz is a good poke but doesn't beat Mega Kangaskhan. After Rocks/taking a PuP or both, you die to Return even with max hp/max def.

    +2 252 Atk Kangaskhan Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 372-438 (87.94 - 103.54%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Not a single one of those in bold is a check.

    +2 252 Atk Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 330-388 (93.22 - 109.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 Atk Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 213-252 (54.19 - 64.12%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    +2 252 Atk Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 342-403 (81.42 - 95.95%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +2 252 Atk Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 291-342 (102.82 - 120.84%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252 Atk Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 384-453 (95.04 - 112.12%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +2 252 Atk Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Klefki: 356-420 (167.29 - 197.48%) -- guaranteed OHKO (can get of a priority t-wave/swagger though, I'll give you that)
    +2 252 Atk Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 397-468 (106.14 - 125.13%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Yeah so all of them die to Power-up Punch + Coverage move (exception of Quagsire, but it's still a 2HKO regardless), meaning they can't switch in. This kinda shows how powerful Mega Kangaskhan is though. Please take a good look at these calcs. Idek why you mentioned Genesect as it is always OHKO'd by +2 Sucker Punch, but the other pokes you mentioned are pretty bulky physicall walls. Hippo is the only one that can take a +2 hit after SR, but still can't switch in on PuP. Not to mention it can only phaze Kangaskhan out at best.

    And by correct plays you probably mean correct pokemon. You can't just play around Mega Kangaskhan, you have to run certain checks on your team, of which a lot lose to the appropriate coverage move. Quite frankly, I think it should be banned but you're entitled to your opinion ofcourse.
     
  30. Opjqy

    Opjqy Member

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    While Kangaskhan is a dominant force in the OU metagame (just like Terrakion was in the early BW meta or Scizor in 4th gen) it can be checked and even counetred with some risky prediction (again, remember Terrakion?) and is not really broken nor unhealthy for the metagame as M Gengar or Blaziken were.

    No Ban of course.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2013
  31. Forum Name

    Forum Name Still unknown

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    @Liarliarpantsonfire

    Yes, MegaKhan is going to be at +2 every time it enters the battlefield. By check I don't mean counter, I mean that it can defeat it under some conditions.

    If Gliscor is faster, and it Toxics the Kangashan on possible PuP or Return and can stall out/heavily weaken it with Protect/Sub Gliscor thingy.
    Quaggy's a bit shitty, I must say.
    Hippo has Whirlwind, Slack Off, it can rack up reisdual damage and heal itself off.
    Genesect has ESpeed, it can play hell lot of mindgames.
    Fast Mew maybe? maybe? ok, not
    Klefki is good for no EQ/FP kanga, but those are pretty rare.
    Togekiss has ParaFlinch, Roost and Aura Sphere, making it pretty good IMO.

    If every threat would be presented like you presented MegaKhan, half of OU would be Uber'd.
     
  32. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    Realistically, and this is how it always plays out in practice, Kangaskhan will always use Power-up Punch first unless it is in immediate danger (which will likely not be the case, why would you bring Mega Kangaskhan in on something that severely threatens it). And do you know why? Because with +2 Attack Mega Kangaskhan is capable of killing 90% of OU with either priority Sucker Punch or a coverage move. Well even more than 90% probably, there's a lot more pokes in OU right now than previous gen and there's only a couple of pokes that take on Mega Kanga 1v1 in the whole tier.

    With that in mind, not one of the pokes you mentioned can switch in on Mega Kangaskhan, as shown pretty damn clearly with the damage calcs. Even if you do stay in to get of a hit on Mega Kanga, it just shrugs it off thanks to its amazing bulk and kills you the next turn. Then you bring in one of your "checks" which quite frankly all lose as I showed with the calcs. Any other possible scenario's? Please, instead of theorymoning with your "well in some scenario's they can live a hit" try to approach it from a perspective in practice.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2013
  33. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Funny thing to mention: terrakion's only marginally slower and can still grab a Swords Dance almost as easily as Kangaskhan can "spam" PUP with no drawbacks(apparently). This goes for things like Garchomp as well, only it has togekiss to forever laugh at it rather than sableye for kangaskhan.

    Not really an argument or anything, but those two are pokemon with similar bulk(as in not paper thin) and can hold an item to boost their power or survivability.

    I also fail to see how Kangaskhan is "versatile," it literally has one set worth using with one changeable move. The fact that it can't even go mixed further cements the move set it's forced to use. It's anything but versatile, and if anything it just hits really hard. Although hitting really hard in and of itself can be ban worthy, if deoxys is any indication.

    I have also said it before and other people as well, but kangaskhan can't just effortlessly get to +2 with no damage or status attached either. It is extremely hard to get a wall within killing range of a PUP, and it still does crap damage to most offensive pokemon that are used.
     
  34. Draciel

    Draciel Admin / Tier Overlord Server Owner Tour Director Admin / Tier Overlord Server Owner Tour Director

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    It's powerful, but definitely is not OP. It has a 4mss and it has counters accordingly. the most general set i've encountered is the fake out/pu punch/earthquake/sucker punch which can be countered by bulky fighting types like conkeldurr,hitmontop. Even bulky rotom w can tank a hit and burn it with will-o-wisp. Also sucker punch makes it predictable against aegislash which can use king's shield to lower its attack. Another instance is trevenant which can easily burn it with will-o-wisp , fearing nothing but the occasional ice punch. Also ou tanks like hippowdon and skarmory can phaze it and recover the damage. All in all i think it isn't as OP as gengarite or blaziken but it is still a top-tier ou threat and should stay that way.
     
  35. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    Terrakion is base 108, Mega Kangaskhan is 100 speed. Terrakion is weak to:
    Fighting 2×
    Ground 2×
    Steel 2×
    Water 2×
    Grass 2×
    Psychic 2×
    Fairy 2×

    Mega Kangaskhan is weak to:
    Fighting 2x

    Base defenses of Terrakion
    91/90/90

    Base defenses of Mega Kangaskhan
    105/100/100

    Again, you say that Mega Kangaskhan can't setup without taking damage. Very true. But unless you run a specific check like bulky ghosts, Conkeldurr, Breloom, Mega Lucario (if weakened) or a Talonflame/CB Dragonite for priority (Scizor and Azumarill die to +2 Sucker Punch after SR over half the time, sadly. Scizor barely does over 50% with max damage, Azumarill less ofcourse) that doesn't matter. Sucker Punch at +2 kills almost everything that's faster barring some faster Fighting-types like Keldeo/Terrak. I posted some calcs of physical walls that get flatout oneshotted by +2 Mega Kangaskhan. It's more than just a strong poke. It's a revenge killer, priority user and late-game sweeper with great bulk and only one weakness, and a solid speed stat to boot. If that's not versatile I don't know what is. Again, everyone entitled to their own opinion but I feel Mega Kangaskhan is way too good by OU standards.
     
  36. Tox

    Tox Active Member

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    Why is this even for debate? Mega Kangaskhan has good bulk and sets up on virtually anything. Sure some ghosts MAY be able to burn it but crunch is becoming more and more popular making them easy to dispose of, Kangaskhan revenges or scares out most pokemon and can easily grab a free +2 attack boost whilst doing so.
    The major problem I have with Kangaskhan is it basically forces me to run stupid shit like rocky helmet and a scarfed or very quick fighting mon on my team. It dominates the meta game and team building process. By banning Kangaskhan the meta game will be a lot more varied. Yes, like anything it can be dealt with but I feel you have to put too many resources, which quite frankly is boring.
     
  37. ajhockeystar

    ajhockeystar Proud Canadian

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    People keep assuming that kanga is always going to get a free +2 boost for some reason. Anyways, the very common physically defensive Rotom-W can take a hit and retaliate with WoW. There's also trevenant which can subseed and florges who can toxic and wish stall. Oh and if you are going to argue that kanga can get a hit off on trevenant after its sub is broken, consider kanga's high HP stat. It'll be recovering a lot from leech seed and kanga won't be getting that "free" +2 boost from PuP. Status absolutely cripples Kanga as well. I say no ban.
     
  38. Rake

    Rake Banned

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    The idea it's even being considered is madness. It's obviously a great Pokemon but not broken at all. WoW never misses anymore, plenty of Pokemon can 1 on 1 with it. The trick is to use your brain and not let it get a Power up Punch off. It's even weak to mach Punch. I don't think I saw Terrakion listed as a check but all a Kangaskan is doing to a terrakion is going it +2 attack with a sucker punch. NO BAN

    PS. What we should be considering for ban is Aegislash, who is better in all ways.
     
  39. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Thanks for completely missing the point of the comparison with terrakion. It's also a lousy revenge killer, really, as UNBOOSTED Kanga's sucker punch does average damage at best. It has to be at +2 nearly all the time to be as broken as you're setting it up to be while also failing to realize that by the time you do kill the pokemon that just took away a large portion of your health, you just got poisoned or burned, or simply are wide open for being revenged.

    It's not even like Kangaskhan has niche checks either, as every single one you listed is completely viable. Ghosts will always be great, fighting types are amazing in their own right and there are very commonly used intimidators that can pick off a weakened kangaskhan. And since PUP doesn't make you suddenly immune to damage, it's realistic that you'll be severely weakened. Aside from talonflame and maybe greninja there's barely any offensive pokemon who don't have over 100 of their main base attacking stat. Which is why that 100/105/105 bulk doesn't hold up as well as everyone keeps implying.

    Honestly, Kangaskhan's just as threatening as any of the other sweepers that can boost to +2. Sucker punch is nice but the need to rely on it can backfire as well. I'm much more afraid of getting swept when I see mega lucario than this thing.
     
  40. Hannah

    Hannah Come a little closer

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    Let me just stop you right there Pnerd. Unboosted, Kangaskhan's attack stays at 349 (383 with a boosting nature), which is pretty damn good for OU standards. While you might say this is "like every +2 sweeper" I believe that Kangaskhan has an edge above them. While Power-up punch might have drawbacks by being unable to hit ghosts, it still does reasonable damage to non-resisted Pokemon. Unlike Swords dance or Nasty Plot, you have a window of opening to setup on opponents you can force out. You know you're going to get those boosts if you're against something that won't appreciate a PuP, things like Tyranitar come to mind. If it were any other setup sweeper, prediction is essential to make sure you get the boost since your only means of boosting leaves you vulnerable for a turn, a crucial turn. Power-up punch remedies that. Not to mention that you're doing Choice banded equivalent attacks (which many things only get the drawback of LO recoil and Parental bond doubles crit/hax procs), with the liberty of switching moves.

    Don't underrate Kangaskhan's means of boosting attack, if it were Swords Dance this suspect wouldn't even be as necessary.

     
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