1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Lucarionite Suspect Discussion

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Discussion' started by Hannah, Dec 9, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Moderators: Draciel, Finchinator, sulcata
  1. Hannah

    Hannah Come a little closer

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2010
    Messages:
    984
    Likes Received:
    230
    PO Trainer Name:
    Hannah
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Discuss the possibility of Lucarionite being banned from the XY OU tier. Use this thread to discuss Lucarionite's effect on the metagame. Talk about the different sets it can use, good partners and potential checks/counters. State your opinion on whether you think Lucarionite should be banned or if it should stay in the XY OU tier but make sure your posts are backed up by experience and knowledge. Anyone who makes post based on theorymon risks being infracted. This thread will be up for a minimum of two weeks.

    Please make sure to make coherent and intelligent posts, as well as reading up on the thread before posting as to not duplicate arguments. We are discussing Lucarionite as a threat to the XY OU tier and not sidetracking towards any other Pokemon. Do not make single meaningless posts that would not contribute towards the discussion, such as posts that just agree with a point without any justification or explanation.
     
  2. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2012
    Messages:
    417
    Likes Received:
    261
    PO Trainer Name:
    owo
    Like I told in suspect discussion:

    adding what Hikari said:

    I think it should be banned. It's not healthy for the metagame for reason quoted above.
     
  3. Virizion

    Virizion ~ Taste the Rainbow ~

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2013
    Messages:
    622
    Likes Received:
    68
    PO Trainer Name:
    Virizion
    Mega Lucario is one of the biggest threats of the tier. With ridiculously high offenses, and a speed that makes other Pokémon jealous, and a movepool that is surprisingly big, this guy seems to be a massive threat. However it doesn't stop there - Mega Lucario's ability, Adaptability, is a pain the ass - Base 150 and 145 attack stats with Close Conbat and Bullet Punch is nothing to joke at. With this in mind, Close Combat can 2HKO even the most deadly physical walls (such as max HP/max Def Skarmory), as well as defeating pretty almost every Fairy-type in sight.

    I'll add more later if and when I have the time, but I will say that Mega Lucario should be banned.
     
  4. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2012
    Messages:
    2,123
    Likes Received:
    109
    Mega Lucario's not broken for 4 main reasons.

    1. It's fragile and has common weaknesses. Ground and Fighting moves are commonly used both for STAB and coverage. This means it's difficult for Lucario to switch in, and finding space to set up can be tricky too. And don't forget for the first turn you still have normal Lucario's speed.

    2. Lots of Pokémon resist its STABs. Fighting moves are resisted by 5 types with Ghost types being completely immune. While nothing is immune to Steel moves, 4 types still resist them. And because it can't hold a Life Orb, its coverage moves are actually weaker than normal Lucario's. This means it has trouble with bulky Pokémon that resist its STABs.
    252 SpA Mega Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 130-154 (40.1 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 146-174 (45 - 53.7%) -- 35.2% chance to 2HKO

    3. 4 Moveslot Syndrome. Both its sweeping sets are seriously strapped for moveslots, and as a result there will always be something it can't muscle through. On the Swords Dance set, it runs Close Combat, Bullet Punch and either Crunch or Ice Punch. Run Crunch, Gliscor and Landorus-T stop it cold. Run Ice Punch, Jellicent and Aegislash stop it cold. On the special set you run Vacuum Wave, Aura Sphere and either Flash Cannon or Dark Pulse. Run Flash Cannon, Aegislash, Jellicent and Gyarados stop you; run Dark Pulse it again has issues with Gliscor and Landorus-T.

    4. It has plenty of viable checks. Having no rock solid counters doesn't make a Pokémon broken.
    Checks and counters for Mega Lucario?
    Aegislash. With 252 HP EVs, Aegislash can switch in on an unboosted M-Lucario with no fear of a 2HKO, and reliably KO it with Sacred Sword and Shadow Sneak. Can even use King's Shield to foil the physical set.
    252 Atk Mega Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 134-158 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Mega Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 130-154 (40.1 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 268-316 (95.3 - 112.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO[/HIDE]
    Mixed Wall Hippowdon. Counters special Lucario if it hasn't boosted yet, and still wins one on one even if it has. Also beats the physical set one on one, if it hasn't boosted.
    252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 164-194 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 266-314 (94.6 - 111.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock[/HIDE]
    Offensive DD Gyarados. Does well against both sets if they haven't boosted, resisting both its STABs and OHKOing with Earthquake most of the time after Stealth Rock (all the time if using Life Orb).
    -1 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 115-136 (34.7 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 92-109 (27.7 - 32.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
    252+ Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 260-306 (92.5 - 108.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock[/HIDE]
    Scarf Landorus-T. Landorus-T can take an unboosted Flash Cannon, outrun and OHKO with Earthquake. If it avoids switching into Ice Punch, it can beat the physical set easily too. One on one, beats both sets even if they're at +2.

    So in short, the fact that Lucario has low bulk, 4 moveslot syndrome, lots of Pokémon resisting its STABs, many viable checks and has to set up to really tear shit up mean Mega Lucario is NOT BROKEN.
     
  5. Xinc

    Xinc Hideyoshi the Falcon

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2011
    Messages:
    1,551
    Likes Received:
    6
    I'm in disagreement with you all. (First off, this is the fourth Mega that's being suspected in a month and a half's time.) Hyper Offense got a severe kick to the face with Defog and as such, there requires some sort of super offensive Pokemon that needs to try to give more options for offense. Lucario's nonboosted Close Combat, mega, deals roughly 44-48% to a max defense Mandibuzz, a proficient defog user, not enough to even 2hko. Mandibuzz can roost away, since it's slower. Mega Lucario can generally run 3 sets: SD, NP, and Mixed. For Mixed or SD, the choice for priority is either Extremespeed or Bullet Punch. The mixed set has more flexibility, but less raw power compared to the other two. Overall, all the Lucario sets suffer from 4 set syndrome, as it has to choose among moves to specific counter some Pokemon, but will lose out on several others. Against Talonflame, an extremespeed deals roughly 40-45% damage, while Bullet Punch is far less, but deals significantly more to fairies who don't get hit neutrally by bp.
    Against Aegislash, Crunch can be mitigated through the King's Shield, but Aegi cannot stand against any boosted Dark Pulse, just barely on regular dark pulse, if I recall. Against the physical sets, Aegislash has a bit more chances to live, due to the steel loss of resistance from a STAB Shadow Sneak. In addition, Lucario is still extremely frail, meaning that it can't take too many hits. A hit from one powerful attack, even a Talonflame's Brave Bird, is very dangerous to it (especially due to the CC drop in defense and special defense). Lucario especially cannot take special hits because of its low sp def stat.
    A Mixed Lucario's HP Ice (4ev) will not ohko a Gliscor without hazards, and Lucario requires hazards to hit hard and guarantee a KO (difficult to do with defog). It'll deal a good 90 something percent damage though depending on the sp def evs. Generally bulky Pokemon can OHKO with Earthquake, which spells The End to Lucario, mega or not. In addition, Landorus-T's Intimidate forces Lucario to switch out (or use HP Ice if it has it, possibly scoring a 1hko if it's not scarfed) due to a -1 attack

    Not broken
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2013
  6. Bas

    Bas Sorry for my English.

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2010
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Mega Lucario is broken, you only need one miss predict and then GG.

    You need two or three checks to be safe, him doens't care about switch (x4 resistance to SR) vs the SR weakness of their checks like Talon, Gyara and Zapdos.
    VS Aegislash is a predict war, you cannot enter on Crunch/Dark Pulse all the day, Royal Shield is pure luck vs a booster. Not forget, 20% Flinch rate.
    Gliscor, Landorus-T and Hippowdown cannot fight the NP Set (NP on the switch and kill someone and you lose a counter for Garchomp or Terrakion).
    Talon has recoil, SR and ExtremeSpeed to be care.
    Jelli can take hits, and? Scald the Special set? and you cannot burn the SD set the 100% of time with Scald. Tentacruel cannot either.
    You can use Defog again and again, yeah?, you cannot use Defog and take SR damage and a hit every time.

    MLuke can Set up on non-whirlwind Mandibuzz (4MSS here), Florges, non-TWave Blissey/Chansey/Ferro, Forrestress, scarf Jirachi, CB TTar, choice locked Dragons and non-stab moves from many thinks; etc. And you can take some damage if you want, +2 Extrme Speed/Vaccum Wave/Bullet Punch makes RK dificult and you only need one of them.

    4MSS on the Physical set arent so big, Close Combat, Extreme Speed and Crunch deal heavy damage to any check with SR on the field.
    The NP can do many thing with only Flash Cannon, Vaccum Wave and Dark Pulse (Flinch hax), even a non-booting Special or Mixed set can make holes on many teams too.


    MLuke arent Arceus, ok, has many checks, but no truly "good" checks. Because many checks needs a really good prediction or some especific circumstances.
    The pressure of MLuke and the dificult to check it (not impossible) makes him broken. The meta should be best without him.
    Ban it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2013
  7. ZoroDark

    ZoroDark Schmidt happens Tier Leader Tier Leader

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,624
    Likes Received:
    984
    Honestly I think Mega Lucario is a pretty tough pokemon to judge.

    We all know what Mega Luke does. It can set up either via Nasty Plot or via Swords Dance to go to town on your opponent's team. The SD set consists of 1. Swords Dance 2. Close Combat 3. Extreme Speed/Bullet Punch and 4. Crunch/Ice Punch. That's basically 6 moves it wants to run in 4 moveslots (even though the difference between Bullet Punch and Extreme Speed is pretty much negligible). If it has boosted, there isn't really anything that wants to take a hit, BUT people are overlooking that's what regular Lucario also does and has been doing ever since gen 4. Sometimes you got to ask yourself the question "would this have been different if I were facing a regular Lucario" and reconsider.

    The differences with regular Luke is that Mega Luke does a much better job at running a NP set. This means you can't really know what set you're going to face. Just as with the SD set, Mega Luke has to choose between NP / Flash Cannon / Vacuum Wave / Aura Sphere and Dark Pulse. Again Mega Luke suffers from 4MSS and so there'll be additional checks and counters next to the "universal" ones, for example Gyarados, Aegislash or Scarfed Landorus-T.

    Even though the checks and counters to these sets are different, the general way of playing against them and beating them is exactly the same. You just gotta pressure it, so it cannot set up. Sure, it has a couple of neat resistances which allow it to set up. But literally every offensive mon has either a coverage moves that OHKO Mega Lucario, or a STAB that's powerful enough to blast it to pieces. Defensive teams can't pressure Mega Lucario this way, but they can resort to running a full counter. But to them, it really isn't a big difference whether they're facing a regular LO Lucario or a Mega Lucario. This is where you should ask the question "would it have been different if I were running regular Lucario" to yourself.
     
  8. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2013
    Messages:
    424
    Likes Received:
    11
    PO Trainer Name:
    Liarliarpantsonfire
    Yes, because Mega Lucario has Adaptability allowing it to break walls that regular Lucario can only dream of breaking.

    +2 252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 398-470 (94.7 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 320-376 (76.1 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Also, Adamant Mega Lucario is faster and stronger than Jolly Lucario while not taking Life Orb recoil.
     
  9. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2012
    Messages:
    2,123
    Likes Received:
    109
    Mega Lucario should always run a Timid or Jolly nature and max speed. If it runs a neutral nature, it gets outrun by max speed base 100s. And Lucario doesn't have the bulk to be slow.
     
  10. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2013
    Messages:
    424
    Likes Received:
    11
    PO Trainer Name:
    Liarliarpantsonfire
    Adamant has its merits, like OHKO'ing Talonflame with +2 Espeed most of the time. Lucario can compensate with Extremespeed, keep that in mind. It's the same reason Adamant is preferred on Life Orb Lucario.
     
  11. Insane Soul

    Insane Soul Griffith did nothing wrong.

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2011
    Messages:
    889
    Likes Received:
    506
    PO Trainer Name:
    Insane Soul
    A trend i’ve been noticing is that most calcs are done when considering an unboosted MLucario.. While it is true that using one turn to setup SD/NP is hard, how hard is it really?

    We can always consider the following situation, where MLucario has a safe switch-in, and the opp has a particularly bad matchup atm. It can either damage it, or switch in to a more suited pokemon, while the MLucario can attack it straight on, or predict a switch to setup.. Even though it takes a lot of mindgames, Lucario will end up killing the pokemon, or severely injure it. If we account a straight on CC/AS or w/e, the switch-in could be any of the following pokemon the posters above me mentioned, or it could be not!

    Next up is what I like to call Mandibuzz wanking. It is undoubtedly a high tier pokemon in XY OU, thanks to the addition of Defog; new Foul Play and Knock Off mechanics, and a metagame that suits its role very nicely.. However, such things have also caused a 4MS on it, with the player having to choose between Toxic, Foul Play, Taunt, Knock Off, let alone the much lower usage of Whirlwind. I think we can all agree it serves a main purpose of Defog’er Wall, with Knock Off/Foul Play/Defog being the most used choice.

    Being a Defog’er, Mandibuzz may often switch in with rocks into play, to then blow them away. Which means, accounting with the usual course of the battle, that Mandibuzz wont be in 100% condition for the entire game, which is only natural.. Even if, by chance, Mandibuzz does switch in on Lucario with full health, and is capable of roosting away most the damage, what can it do after? Using Whirlwind is a long shot, since all of its moves are precious, so can Foul Play deliver?

    It could, seeing that Lucario will be at -1 Defense after using CC, and after using Swords Dance, it will only boost its attack, which results in the following:
    +2 0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 281-331 (99.6 - 117.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Mandibuzz is indeed a great check to Lucario.. Also, my calcs for unboosted CC to 252/252+ Mandibuzz came as the following to me
    252 Atk Adaptability Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 198-234 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    So, either Xinc made a wrong calc, or I did. Either way, it is difficult to switch in with full health.. But this was a Physical Lucario! How would a Special one fare, considering it doesn’t get a drop from AS/FC, nor he boosts his Attack..
    0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 78-93 (27.6 - 32.9%) -- 0.7% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    Mandibuzz runs Defensive much, much more than it runs Sp. Defensive, so that’s that

    Which brings me to my next point: unpredictability! Usage stats show that Lucario has very balanced usage on its movesets, meaning either Special or Physical are viable, with Mixed serving as the surprise factor. The opponent can only assume the set by the nature of the opponent’s team, through the battle’s course and Team Preview, and that is fallible in itself. And, unlike Genesect, it does not serve as a scouter, so the opponent can’t guess which moveset it is running, by calcing U-turn’s damage output or whatever move it uses, until Lucario is in battle..

    About the counters/checks that were presented, they are all relatively common choices, with Aegislash and Talonflame really standing out in usage stats.. However, each of these fail on their specific job, just for the purpose to take Lucario on: Offensive Gyarados would end up almost wrecked after killing Luke, and failing to accomplish a mid/late game sweep.. Sure, you would neutralize the opponent’s threat, but end up hindering yourself. As far as Hyppowdon goes, it is an excellent pokemon, but Careful nature is a questionable one (fun fact: as I’m writing this, the stats page has been updated, and Hyppowdon’s Max Sp. Def set is the most used. I am now referring to November, 2013’s stats). 4/0 Landorus-T gets 3HKO’d by Close Combat, and the same happens with Aura Sphere, so I believe it is a good call, although Land-T isn’t very common in this meta with a Scarf Set. Aegislash is spot on!
    Still, the point of Lucario being nigh-unbreakable still stands..

    A familiar point rose about Genesect’s suspect discussion in the old metagame, where HP Ground and Giga Drain were seen as usable choices against the most common switch-ins for Gene, namely Heatran and Gatrodon, and ended up being used a good deal of times. Lucario falls a little for that, with HP Ice on its Special and Mixed sets, and Bullet Punch, Extreme Speed, Crunch and Ice Punch acting as coverage against a specific kind of playing.. Bullet Punch for revenge killing and Scarf Terrakion, which is far less used in XY OU, Espeed for good Base Power and +2 priority and Ice Punch for Land-T, Gliscor and the usual Dragons.. Lucario can’t run 2 sets with 8 moves, but it can wreck havoc with every one of them..

    Furthermore, Lucario can’t be referred as a one-man team. Nor it has to, as few pokemon in past OU, now banished, can be called that.. Lucario doesn’t fall on that category, as it needs a bit of support, just like every other pokemon in OU, and every other pokemon that got banned!

    The thing is, it needs so little to truly shine.. Taking Aegislash, Landorus-T, Gyarados and Hyppowdon into consideration (I wont refer to Talonflame), I can name one pokemon that can answer to all of these, and that is Bold Zapdos (thx BasedVictory, for the suggestion).. Yes, it does sound ridiculous, but the point is to expose a simple pokemon with usefulness in OU that can couple with Lucario to take down its checks/counters, and not much else atm..

    Scarf Landorus-T will 2HKO just barely, but srsly, after seeing it, the player can simply switch into something else that can take a repetitive Stone Edge.. Bulky Land-T could play around with Roost and EQ, given prediction and right timing.. Aegislash’s situation is even trickier, as it can only hope to beat Zapdos through Weakness Policy or a lucky crit, while Heat Wave will be doing a heck lot.. Hyppowdon, as another bulky Ground, can only hope to beat Zapdos through wise plays with EQ.. Gyarados is much, much harder to play against, as its Mega Evo grants him only a 2x weakness, and a big boost in Sp. Defense.. On the other hand, I find Stone Edge unorthodox on MGyarados, as it works better with a Sub, in my honest opinion.. A different story goes for regular Gyarados, and it can always be a viable choice if you already have a megaevo.. If so, things get easier for Zapdos..

    This duo is shaky, but it already solves some problems, and this is only 2 pokemon! Slowbro also comes to mind as a good partner, but I figure it relies too much in Scald, which is not necessarily a bad thing.. Some calcs below:

    0 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 240-284 (62.6 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    252 Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 192-226 (50.1 - 59%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 175-207 (45.6 - 54%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    +2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 129-153 (33.6 - 39.9%) -- 26% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 116-138 (35.8 - 42.5%) -- 94% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    0+ Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 212-252 (55.3 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    252 Atk MGyarados Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 121-144 (31.5 - 37.5%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    252 Atk MGyarados Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 202-238 (52.7 - 62.1%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    252 Atk Gyarados Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 172-204 (44.9 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    [/HIDE]

    You don’t even have to build your team around Lucario, just pay a bit of attention to not have your team share its common weaknesses, the most common in XY OU tbh (Fire, Ground, Fight)

    Also, the point of me going long and boring about Mandibuzz is to exemplify with one simple wall that isn’t as specific as the other for Lucario, and has been getting a lot of hype. Foremost, I already talked on how Lucario might make the opp’s worst nightmare come true: that Mandibuzz doesn’t get to play Defog safely, without getting sacrificed. Beating Mandibuzz is more of an achievement as any other, as Defog represents the true threat to hazards, and without it, any player that doesn’t play suicidal hazard stacking can support Lucario so nicely that every 3HKO can turn into a 2HKO, and thus a non-safe switch..

    I almost forgot another nice boost it got: the Speed. Lucario is now able to outspeed a multitude of pokemon that could, before, switch into a setup move or after a kill, to force Lucario out, namely every single 90er; 100er; Garchomp; Landorus/Thundurus-T; 105er; Infernape & Musketeers; Lati twins & Gengar and Thundurus, while hitting notably harder at both the Physical and Special spectrum.. Modest or Adamant nature could even be run, for extra power and hindrance of the common switch-ins, but as Doom already said, it is essential for Lucario to outspeed these pokemon..

    After all this, I am of the opinion that MLucario is too overpowered and that Lucarionite should be banned from the XY OU tier..
     
  12. Accelgor

    Accelgor Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2013
    Messages:
    166
    Likes Received:
    162
    PO Trainer Name:
    -Accelgor-
    Quagsire fares pretty nicely against both the physical and special Mega Lucario variants. It can either go for the burn through the use of Scald or finish it off by using Earthquake. Unaware obviously negates all of the stat boosts as well, so there's no possibility of increased damage (unless through a critical hit). I was going to mention a lot of other counters/checks like Aegislash, Landorus-T, and Mandibuzz, but they've already been covered in previous posts. Don't all of those Genesect spammers already have an answer for Mega Lucario? Extremespeed won't do much and most special sets don't even run Vacuum Wave.

    So in my opinion, DON'T BAN IT, as it doesn't have a 'monumental' effect on the current metagame.
     
  13. Bas

    Bas Sorry for my English.

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2010
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Even with full investiment you cannot counter SD MLuke using Quagsire.
    252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 226-268 (57.3 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    But well, you can revenge kill him.
    Anyway, counter a Quagsire is pretty easy with any Specially based Grass-Type of the tier, Luke doenst need many support.

    And about support, you can run Toxic Heatran for Genesect, Talon, Aegis, Mandibuzz, etc., or simply using SR and the next time Mega Lucario can sweep the enemy team.


    Mega Lucario can deal with offensive too, 112 Base Speed is damn good and a Choiced-locked Dragon arent so uncommon. Good speed, good priority and good Stabs, is enough for makes holes on Offensive teams.
     
  14. 2thug4u

    2thug4u im so bad at this game

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2013
    Messages:
    109
    Likes Received:
    2
    PO Trainer Name:
    - Ravioli -
    Pro - Ban

    [​IMG]



    Mega Lucario SHOULD be banned, in my opinion. First, let's look at it's typing.

    It's Fighting/Steel. Weak to Fire, Fighting, and Ground, which are some of the most common attacking types in the game. However, with the right team support, such as Rotom-W to cover it's Fire, and Ground types, and be able to comfortably take Close Combats with that base 107 defense, and Will-O-Wisp to help further it's defenses, or Landorus-T to take ALL of those attacks very comfortably also. However, that's all the cons for Mega-Lucario. Here are the pros.

    - Can run either a special or physical set with Nasty Plot and Vacuum Wave, or Swords Dance, and Bullet Punch, both work very efficiently. It's also very fast, sporting a base 112 Speed Stat, allowing it to out-speed Latios and Latias, Garchomp, and more.

    Think you can revenge kill it? Well, after a Swords Dance or two, it pretty much destroys everything with Bullet Punch.

    However, it has mediocre 70/88/70 defenses, so it can kill many things, but is killed by many things, basically. However, 145/140 Attack and Special attack, and 112 speed is NOTHING to laugh at. It's just too overpowered, it's movepool is awesome too. It get's Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, Bullet Punch, Vacuum Wave, Close Combat, Earthquake, Extreme Speed, Shadow Ball, Stone Edge, Power-Up Punch, and the always nifty Force Palm, with a 30% paralysis chance.

    Oh, it seems like I'm forgetting something, am I? It's INSANE ability.
    Adaptability. It's basically an insane fucking DOUBLE-STAB.
    Wait, where is the proof that this is insanely fucking powerful? Right here:



    252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 216-256 (50.9 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery



    252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 248-294 (62.9 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery



    But wait, it doesn't even NEED Adaptability to fucking wreck SHIT

    252+ Atk Mega Lucario Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Shield: 140-166 (43.2 - 51.2%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    (Keep in mind this is Aegislash SHIELD, with MAX DEFENSE EV's.)



    TL;DR Version: Mega-Lucario is too overpowered. PRO - BAN
     
  15. DarkDiglett

    DarkDiglett Parramatta 2014

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2011
    Messages:
    1,008
    Likes Received:
    56
    Agreeing with some of the above that mega Lucario isn't broken enough to be banned. It seems a lot more broken on paper than in practise, which is why all the people in these threads who do nothing but theorymon are calling for it to be banned. You can't just run mega Lucario and expect to 6-0 a competent player, it is too frail to switch into most things, and can only really come in after something has died. Its weakness to fighting/ground aren't exactly helpful, as many common scarfers/priority can outspeed and OHKO.

    It has bad 4mss , which mean yes, you actually have to play around it as you don't know what set it's running to begin with, but there will always be pokemon it won't be able to beat. Just because a pokemon doesn't have the one set it can run, doesn't make it broken enough to be banned.

    It's like Terrakion / Draginite last gen, nothing countered all their potential sets, but each set had checks and could be beaten. Lucario also has checks for it's sets, and all sets can be revenged. Yes, it can switch out of the obvious Mach punch, but good luck switching back into anything.

    Mega Lucario is a strong, top-tier threat, but it isn't game changing, or overcentralising enough to warrant being banned.

    Strong, but not ban worthy.
     
  16. Devvrat

    Devvrat New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2012
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    0
    First of all, everyone who seems to be arguing for Mega Lucario's ban is including each and every one of it's viable moves at once. Lucario suffers from a 4 moveslot syndrome, and a rather chronic one. Talking about physical sets, The most common set is :
    Lucario @ Lucarionite
    Ability: Adaptability
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 HP / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Bullet Punch / Extremespeed
    - Ice Punch / Crunch / ExtremeSpeed
    - Swords Dance
    's i
    This set requires Swords dance to function, as otherwise OU behemoths like Landorus-T or Gliscor or even aegislash can stand up to it. If Ice Punch is not chosen, Gliscor and Landorus-T are even more of a problem, Lucario simply won't be able to get past them.

    +2 252 Atk Adaptability Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 234-276 (66.1 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- not a possible switch in but if it's in with 78%+ hp, then Lucario gets OHKO'd by EQ.

    +1 252 Atk Adaptability Lucario Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 178 Def Landorus-T: 193-228 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- not a switch in but again beats Lucario if it's already in with enough health.

    Scarf Lando-T revenge kills easily.

    If it forgoes crunch, Mega Luke stands no chance against Aegislash.

    +2 252 Atk Adaptability Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 67-79 (20.7 - 24.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO -- while Sacred swords ohko's.

    Talonflame revenge kills with Brave Bird at 97% health. KO with some prior damage and Mega Lucario only bypasses it by using Extremespeed after Rocks

    I've used Mega Lucario on 3 different teams till now, peaked at #88. Sure it seems easy on paper to bring lucario in, megaevolve + SD, but it's not. Using Jolly Mega Lucario, I could only perfectly set up if I was against a choice-locked mon. If I tried to setup on Ferro, most of the time I'd end up getting T.Wave'd. Only when they use protect can you actually be in a position to dominate. And Iron Barbs + Rocky Helmet + Talonflame at 75% health was gg.

    Even when Mega Lucario did successfully set up, it was stopped cold by Unaware Clefable and Unaware Quagsire. I saw at least one of the two on every alternate team I battled, and unless I somehow took them down with something like Scizor or Latios, they would easily halt Lucario's run.

    Besides, it still is hard setting up a Swords Dance in the first place, as offensive teams will continuously maintain pressure on you. Only if against walls/choice-locked pokemon or during endgame can Lucario set up and proceed to officially "sweep", but then so can other sweepers.

    Rest-talk Gyarados is another viable intimidate user that comes to mind when thinking of how to stop Mega Luke's sweep.

    +1 252 Atk Adaptability Lucario Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 178-210 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO --
    0 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 211-249 (75 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- if the sweep has just begun. Later on the -def will be more of a factor.

    The special Lucario set is rather troublesome agreed, however it is even more susceptible to being revenge killed.

    +2 252 SpA Adaptability Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 176-208 (54.4 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- can't switch in, but certainly can revenge kill.

    Choice Scarf Landorus-T is another mon capable of revenge killing lucario with EQ.

    +2 252 SpA Adaptability Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 96-114 (30 - 35.7%) -- 35.8% chance to 3HKO

    In short : Mega Lucario hits hard indeed, and it can sweep unprepared teams, but it is by no means broken - serious 4-moveslot syndrome, lack of bulk and reliance on boosting moves to a certain extent. Keep it.
     
  17. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2010
    Messages:
    2,692
    Likes Received:
    552
    252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 434-512 (154.4 - 182.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Staraptor Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 359-424 (127.7 - 150.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 288-342 (102.4 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Tyranitar Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 298-352 (106 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    I'm not sure where you're getting your info but anything offensive that has any business using a fighting attack, especially bosted by STAB, can easily one shot a Lucario, mega or not. Please don't oversell its bulk, its nothing all that incredible when uninvested. You also have to remember that these pokemon aren't going to just sit idly by and let themselves be burnt. Team support is important for offensive suspects but in order to significantly factor into a pokemon being banned you pretty much need as little team support as possible to sweep through everything.

    It also doesn't have 107 bulk, I'm not sure where you pulled that number either since it's not even listed as any of mega lucario's stats.

    Zapdos and Thundurus resist any priority move barring Extremespeed that Lucario can throw, and you mention adamant Mega Lucario in your calcs below. This allows either of the two pokemon to out speed and kill you. Not to mention the slew of other pokemon that outpace you when you run Adamant instead of Jolly. Those are only 2 pokemon out of the many in OU that I can mention off the top of my head at the moment as well.

    Not going to bother quoting the rest of your post, however we already know how strong Lucario's Close Combat is. The problem lies in its coverage moves: Mega Luke is faster than normal form, however without Life Orb its Crunch, Hidden Power, Extremespeed etc are all weaker than in normal form. This actually matters quite a bit, as shown in his calcs. Turning 2HKOs into 3HKOs by virtue of not getting that power up on non-STAB moves is huge.

    I personally don't have an opinion on mega luke yet. It's undoubtedly one of the best pokemon in the tier, at least right now, and if it does end up not being banned it'll probably be one that heavily shapes the metagame.
     
  18. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2012
    Messages:
    1,134
    Likes Received:
    853
    PO Trainer Name:
    Afro Smash
    pnerd he was talking about rotom-w as a teammate for lucario
     
  19. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2013
    Messages:
    370
    Likes Received:
    375
    PO Trainer Name:
    GO US-EAST
    You brought up Hippo in your post as a counter to MegaLuke, but that's not really true. 252/252+ SpDef Hippo is OHKO'd by +2 CC or 2HKO'd on the switch in. 252/252+ Def Hippo is OHKO'd by +2 AuraSphere/FlashCannon. If Hippo is the correct set for the Right Luke, then it does fairly well, but there's a chance that +2 CC can OHKO Hippo even if physical defensive.

    You also brought up Gyra, which if 0/0 can be OHKO'd by +1 CC after rocks and doesn't always have intimidate. I'll add more here in a bit
     
  20. RaytedR

    RaytedR Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't think any of those guys want to even try to revenge kill Mega Luke. Unless Terrakion is scarfed and knows he has Extreme speed instead of BP or VW.
     
  21. Xinc

    Xinc Hideyoshi the Falcon

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2011
    Messages:
    1,551
    Likes Received:
    6
    I'm going to pop in once more and say that all three of us who gave calcs on Mandibuzz vs Lucario all have different specs... two of us are doing it wrong.

    I'm also going to say that Defog put a serious damper on HO and offense in general, which means that shouldn't we allow some stronger Pokemon offensively to enter the metagame, as there runs the risk of hazards being phazed out? Lucario, in my opinion as stated before, is not uber material, but is simply a strong Pokemon, with or without Mega. He also doesn't have the chance to hold items like Life Orb, which hurts his non-STAB moves, such as vital coverage moves like Crunch for Ghosts/Psychics and Extremespeed for priority. Likewise, HP Ice is an important coverage move, but Lucarioite can't use its full function right off the bat without boosting.
     
  22. Dreams

    Dreams Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2013
    Messages:
    166
    Likes Received:
    76
    A lot of people have done Extensive calcs and compared impressive scenarios in both pro and against ban cases. I would simply like to point out that most calcs are being done at +2 , and any offensive pokemon which can hit lucario back with SE or neutral hits will at worst 2hko it. I see people overselling it to the point where they paint a 6-0 scenario at +2 . Any pokemon which is set up is a threat.And like most sweepers , Mega Luc is frail and 323 speed (Max Ev's) is not unreachable. I vote for a no ban
     
  23. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2013
    Messages:
    370
    Likes Received:
    375
    PO Trainer Name:
    GO US-EAST
    That speed is pre-MegaEvo. We all know MegaLuke is frail, but he forces thing out. This is undeniable. You are also generally setting up on something that can't touch you, not "any offensive pokemon" He's frail, but he can take a non SE hit most of the time. When MegaLuke is sent out, it becomes a "If I switch and he SD's (or NP's) then I lose" or a "If I stay in and he CC's, I die" situation. That is what people mean when we say he can set up easily. Look at Talonflame, he's frail as well, but he can easily set up an sd since he scares things out.
     
  24. Xdevo

    Xdevo God Bless the President Tier Leader Tour Director Tier Leader Tour Director

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,217
    Likes Received:
    1,141
    252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 198-234 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- 68.8% chance to 2HKO

    That is the correct calc for Jolly / Hasty MegaLucario vs Mandibuzz.

    252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 226-268 (57.3 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Quagsire honestly is a really poor check to the physical set.

    252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 168-200 (42.6 - 50.7%) -- 44.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    Kinda a meh check considering that you have to run Max/Max Defense and hope for low damage rolls. And the whole giving up Magic Guard thing.

    +1 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 258-304 (77.9 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Loses with SR. The defensive set is the one that you'll have to use to counter MegaLuke.

    +2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 364-430 (86.6 - 102.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Another meh check.

    Probably should put a disclaimer that I personally haven't made my mind up on MegaLuke, but people need to start either proving what they think a check is, or do some calcs before talking.

    Yours were incorrect (it looks like the Aura Sphere calc on a physically defensive one from comparison). The other set was a calc from an Adamant MegaLuke.

    The short answer is: "That isn't how it works." Just because one style (might have) received a nerf, doesn't mean we should allow broken things (not saying that Megaluke is) to make it better. Stall was "bad" in Gen 5, should we have dropped Giratina to make it better? Obviously not.

    Things that are broken shouldn't be allowed to stay in a metagame to make some team style better.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2013
  25. geezer

    geezer Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2013
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    1
    Its very easy to say that others theorymon while presenting no valid arguments yourself. Its not theorymon calcing how much lucarios "counters" take from its attacks. Those are valid arguments. and I recognize these situations from playing on the ladder. If you could slap a poke on the team and excpect to win, there would be no argument. That pokemon would be uber. Obviously. Were discussing if MElucario is too strong for OU, not if you can win 100% of the time you slap it onto your team.
     
  26. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2012
    Messages:
    2,123
    Likes Received:
    109
    I never claimed Hippowdon was a counter to Mega Lucario. I said it was a good check - it can switch into the special set if it hasn't boosted yet, and OHKO with Earthquake most of the time without fearing a OHKO, and if the physical set hasn't boosted yet it always wins one on one (barring crits obviously).
    252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 164-194 (39 - 46.1%)
    +2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 326-384 (77.6 - 91.4%)
    0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 266-314 (94.6 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO. Guaranteed OHKO with 1 layer of Spikes.

    Scarf Landorus-T also wins one on one every time, 252 HP/ 252 Atk Aegislash can counter if Lucario hasn't boosted yet and even if it has it will still always win one on one. I think Mega Lucario is a bit like Mew - while nothing can counter every one of its sets, each set has specific checks and counters, and some Pokémon can check both sets well. People seem to be under the assumption that it can always switch in and set up for free - it can't.
     
  27. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2013
    Messages:
    424
    Likes Received:
    11
    PO Trainer Name:
    Liarliarpantsonfire
    Does anyone else see the analogy with Blaziken in this statement? :P That's not an argument to keep it in OU my friend, but rather an argument towards a ban. If a pokemon requires specific checks for every different set, then that's definitely an argument to look into that pokemon. Hydreigon or Mew for that matter have few 100% counters, but they aren't very flexible when it comes purely to sweeping. Mega Lucario is about as flexible and versatile as you can get. You take the best defensive typing and put it with one of the best offensive typings, give it Adaptability, outstanding mixed offensive stats and the movepool to utilize it (SD, Nasty Plot comes to mind) and then you get Mega Lucario. And three different priority moves as well, of which two are STAB.

    I've seen the argument of not being able to switch in on anything and not being able to ever setup, which quite frankly isn't correct to say. Eight resistances compared to only three weaknesses is pretty damn good. Not to mention it backs it up with immense offensive presence and speed. It threatens out various pokes like Blissey, Ferrothorn, Latios, Garchomp, Tyranitar, Excadrill, Mamoswine etc. Need I go on? Then I'm not even talking about the possibility of specially based or even mixed Mega Lucario. Like I said and like Dr. Doom stated himself, every set requires specific checks and counters. You never know beforehand which set it will run, making it extremely difficult to deal with reliably.
     
  28. TFL

    TFL New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    I already voiced my opinion on Mega-Lucario in the Potential Suspects thread, so I'll assume it's alright that I post separate quotes from that, so that you may understand exactly where I stand and why:

    "Between Lucario's typing and the possibility of the opponent using a Volt-Turn core, it isn't going to have too much difficulty switching in and setting up."

    "Another factor to its brokenness is its unpredictability, it has two strong sweeping sets, Physical and Special."

    "It isn't uncommon for a person to switch in their Mega-Lucario 'counter' and guess the wrong set, costing them the game. "

    "NP Mega-Luke kills stall, but it isn't like other stall-breakers, such as: Mega-Garchomp, Mega-Charizard-X, and Clefable, because there is no cost of it going against any type of team, the Special set functions just as well as the Swords Dance set when it is up against offensive teams."

    Why wouldn't you use Mega-Lucario? If played well, it should always beat defensive teams. Mega-Lucario isn't a slouch against any type of team and will always pull its weight, other stall-breaking Pokemon will not.

    "...Mega-Lucario's amazing Speed tier and three different types of priority moves, which makes it very difficult to revenge kill, and is only made worse by the fact that most Choice Scarf users are inherently bad in the current metagame."

    I am Pro Ban.
     
  29. Teen Titans

    Teen Titans New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2013
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    I keep saying the same exact things that people are saying that can check / counter Mega Luke... aegislash zapdos and gyara ? Do you guys forget that lucario has support from 5 other teammates that can bring down these so called "checks". also forgetting the fact that zapdos cant take two +2 flash cannons after rocks and neither can gyara. and if you think stuff like talonflame or mandibuzz can handle lucario well youre forgetting that they also are raped by rocks. and nobody is gonna be setting up while talonflame is still alive anyways. BAN Lucarionite. it's broken.
     
  30. Hannah

    Hannah Come a little closer

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2010
    Messages:
    984
    Likes Received:
    230
    PO Trainer Name:
    Hannah
    Why is the arguement "It destroys defensive teams" so common within the thread. Most defensive teams I've seen in XY OU have no difficulty playing around with Mega Lucario. They have simple cores like Heatran / Gyarados / Mandibuzz / Mega Venusaur which those alone shut down a major bulk of the tier.

    It's somewhat ignorant to say that Mega Lucario shuts down an entire playstyle considering we've acknowledged that there are Pokemon that can confidently take repeated hits from either sets that aren't that hard to come by this current gen. Unlike Mega Lucario, Stall and defensive playstyles are built to for longevity, teams like those have sustainability and were built to last while maintaining offensive pressure.

    I do think that Mega Lucario does amazing against some Voltturn cores (Landorus-T, Rotom-W, Genesect).

    I completely disagree that stall is dead this generation. In fact, a few new additions make it stronger than ever. Taking down Mega Venusaur is already hard enough! Anyways, it just seems as if people mix up general bulky offense (which was the answer to voltturn) with stall.

    edit for Teen Titans:
    because Mega Lucario relies on sweeping, unlike defensive threats that rely on sponging hits and hitting back. You may have 5 other Pokemon but their team in general was built to withstand all those other Pokemon. That's how game matchup goes. Your calcs and theory rely on a boosted MLuke to dish out the major damage to teams yet you bring up having to switch out every turn because Mega Lucario can't really stay in.

    Lucario isn't bulky enough to setup boosts in the middle of the match and wallbreak. It has enough offensive threats around the tier and defensive drawbacks to force it to save up for the actual sweep. You said yourself that you have your team to switch out to, so if you keep switching out without being able to actually cash in your +2 attacks how does it do it's role properly? Just food for thought.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2013
  31. Kyrk

    Kyrk KACAW

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2011
    Messages:
    1,232
    Likes Received:
    142
    PO Trainer Name:
    Kyrk
    I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you about whether Lucarionite gets banned since I'm still neutral on it, but your argument about it being broken simply because its teammates or hazards (which are slightly more difficult to keep up thanks to Defog) can beat its checks/counters is pretty flawed. Following your logic, stuff like Pikachu is broken because you can build a team where your teammates beat all of its checks/counters to where it can sweep teams.

    Mega Lucario, just like normal Lucario, can't just switch in and set-up on everything in the tier since it's pretty frail with common weaknesses. Also like normal Lucario, it can't beat everything that tries walling it due to its 4MSS, which is more significant than past suspects such as Kangaskhanite. Mega Lucario's coverage moves are weaker than LO Lucario's, so the pokemon in the tier that resist its STABs have a higher chance of living those coverage moves and hurting back; of course, this is provided that you don't correct predict its switchin with your correct coverage move(s), which isn't a 100% factor.

    However, even the bulkiest pokemon that don't resist its STAB attacks will typically be unable to safely switch in due to either getting 1-2HKO'd thanks to Adaptability or getting set up on (which may or may not sound like a contradiction to the first part of my argument). Another factor that makes Mega Lucario arguably too powerful is its offensive versatility, giving it the ability to effectively run either a physical set with Swords Dance, a special set with Nasty Plot, or even a mixed set for a surprise factor. This means that the only way to accurately determine a team you've never battled before's Lucario set is to study your opponent's possible offensive synergy in the team preview, which is still that spot-on due to its teammates being able to run more than one set and your opponent having possible different ways on teambuilding.

    This is what I've observed, and I personally haven't always had trouble with Mega Lucario unless I got outplayed and/or haxed prior to it being sent out using a random bulky-offensive team, but I've yet to say I've played it enough against more experienced players to give a firm stance on it being broken or not.
     
  32. Luck>Skill

    Luck>Skill Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2010
    Messages:
    2,522
    Likes Received:
    496
    PO Trainer Name:
    Luck>Skill
    I must have missed the part where a mon with 3 priorities, from both sides of the spectrum and with the appropriate boosting moves is "easy to revenge kill", especially since it doesn't even carry LO and has a x4 SR resistance, meaning it doesn't lose health as fast as a bunch of other threats

    other than the rather shallow pool of check / counters megaluke has (hint: megasaur doesn't OHKO back with eq so it loses the 1v1, I'm not sure about hp fire as I have seen a whole lot of 0 hp fire megasaurs), I'd like to focus on the "how easy is it to check?" since it has basically 0 counters as proven by earlier posts

    well, Hippowdon, defensive Gyarados (which isn't even remotely as good as it was last gen due to the lower usage of keldeo, volcarona, the death of lando-i and lolinfernape, and other stuff)

    most of these things require very little prior damage to actually get destroyed by megacario anyway, and I think a lot of people are missing one of the biggest buffs that gf gave us to defeat defensive teams this gen: the knock off boost

    knock off is an amazing move thanks to its superior power, and secondary effect, removing items makes most pokemon incredibly weaker, and lucario doesn't care about knock off

    also mandibuzz is NEVER at full health throughout the average match, and most common SRers (megatar, heatran, landot) just won't let it come in for free and defog while allowing it to stay at a reasonably high health to actually manage to barely survive to megacario's onslaught

    hippowdon is a lot easier to maintain healthy throughout a match, thanks to its SR resistance and its gargantuan defence, but as proven by earlier calcs you'll need to run fully invested in either def or sdef and HOPE to face the "right" lucario, and even max physdef hippo dies to +2 CC with like 10% chip damage, while sdef hippo actually checks NPcario but loses to every other version

    +1 CC rapes gyarados with rocks down, and a defensive gyara can't OHKO back anyway, so not even close

    Sableye: it doesn't lose to sd carios not carrying bpunch at least

    Zapdos: the closest thing to an actually usable check, except it has the same flaws as mandibuzz, but it at least can manage to force out a good amount of SR users, still, SR weak mons aren't exactly something to rely on

    so most defensive checks aren't really good at actually checking Lucario, so what about the offensive checks?

    most of them lose to the appropriate priority, but that's a lot easier to cover than it may seem, still, it's not that easy to offensively check lucario as 355 is an AMAZING speed tier (faster than gengar, tornadus, latis and +1 scrafty!!!!)

    azumarill does well vs everything thats not flash cannon npcario, and is probably the most reliable offensive check to Lucario

    then there's random stuff that fears only 1 of the various coverage moves: scarftran fears only vacuum wave, scarfgar only bpunch, genesect only vacuum wave, terrakion both bpunch and vacuum wave and so on

    basically, few mons can check it, to offensively check it you'd need either copious amounts of luck and always face the lucario version you can beat, or you must use at least 2 of them (and without mindleslly boosting mcario can play around them easily)

    I don't see any reason for it to stay OU
     
  33. Sinclair

    Sinclair Call me the Pokemon Demigod

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2012
    Messages:
    290
    Likes Received:
    639
    I find it kind of ironic that we're suspecting something that is checked by the #2 and #3 most used mons in OU.
     
  34. Teen Titans

    Teen Titans New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2013
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    you just don't understand what i'm trying to get at. Mega Lucario has no counters , a handful of UNRELIABLE checks. i wasnt saying that the team makes the pokemon broken. i'm saying that mega lukey has such little checks that if you dont have one of them on your team, you're pretty much screwed. and even if you are running an aegislash or zapdos you still have the trouble of all the switches and plays you can make with mega lukey and his teammates. people always forget that mega lucario has teammates that he can switch to and nobody is gonna be setting up if you have a ''zapdos'' or ''gyarados'' alive.
     
  35. gAmerBlob

    gAmerBlob Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2013
    Messages:
    48
    Likes Received:
    0
    PO Trainer Name:
    gAmerBlob
    Whoever is saying stall is gone is completely wrong. I've seen multiple (despicable) people running PP stall (teams have defog, aromatherapy, wish-passing, hardest hitting attack on team = SToss) to decent effect. That teams no longer need to hazards or even Toxic damage says a lot right now. As much as I hate that particular strategy, there are still plenty of offensive options beside Mega Lucario to go up against it. Defiant Bisharp is particularly effective. If anything, I think that banning Lucario would encourage people to run teams NOT comprised solely of walls/clerics.

    Also, the potential to run so many viable sets more than makes up for its 4MSS. It can't account for all of its checks and counters, but it's the fact that it has the tools to potentially deal massive damage to almost anything in the tier makes it too hard to switch things into it. Again, this is one of the reasons stall and bulky offense is dominating the tier: there are too many big offensive threats that beat most other offensive mons to account for. The main ones beside M-Lucario are Talonflame and Aegislash (and a lot of other Mega evolutions), which can beat a lot of offensive-mons run through teams lacking a check, but they are 99.9% walled by certain 'mons, and reliably checked by many others. M-Lucario may have some decent checks, but not enough imo. Hyper offense is still severely hampered with Defog, but variety of viable offensive Pokes can only be encouraged if M-Lucario is gone.

    To paraphrase, Mega Lucario ISN'T unbeatable, but IS centralizing the meta-game. I would support banning it.
     
  36. Neil.

    Neil. New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2013
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    0
    Mega Lucario is completely healthy for the OU metagame

    The biggest flaw in Mega Lucario is its extreme frailness in conjunction with the mega evolution mechanics. Lucario needs to kill something/set up first with it's average base 90 speed in order to obtain mega status the following turns. This is huge. Hyper offensive teams more often than not include multiple pokes with a speed stat above that 90 benchmark which make it difficult to safely mega evolve at times.
    After safely achieving mega status Lucario still has a plethora of checks and counters that threaten him due to his 4mss and his frailness. The big three (talonflame, greninja, aegislash) check both the physical and special oriented variants of mega lucario reliably and they are the most common pokes in OU atm.
    Mega Lucario takes skill to utilize effectively and is not broken.Do Not Ban
     
  37. Kazekidd

    Kazekidd New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2013
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    Mega lucario is a huge threat once u get all his counters out of the way. but that goes for any sweeper. i went off against mega lucario several times. its so frail that i have no complaints. for late game tho, its a bit hard to deal with. but same with infernape and dd dnite (any late game sweeper). 1 mach punch pretty much does the trick for lucario. gliscor is a goodcheck unless someone let it set up 2 SD against it. pretty much any ghost wit the slightest bulk. very seldomly do i see crunch on lucario. lando t is a good check and so is gdos. to me its a good offense mon no lie about it. its BRUTAL. but not unstoppable. they could of made it like kyreum b, BRUTAL AND BULKY. i think lucario should be ou without a doubt. and well if its running a nasty plot set then we have fairy pkm now. resisting dark and fighting moves. i think hyper offense teams will benefit from a mon like lucario. just my opinion. it shouldn't be banned from ou
     
  38. Rejuve

    Rejuve New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2013
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    Fighting/Steel typing gives you A LOT of opportunities to setup.

    The main problem I have with mLucario is the fact you have to be extremely careful when you revenge kill or KO one of mLucarios team mates with a Move, or Pokemon that will give mLucario the opportunity to safely use a boosting move when he gets the safe switch in.
    Even though this is true for a lot of Pokemon, mLucario can be a little bit too much to deal with after a boost.
     
  39. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2012
    Messages:
    760
    Likes Received:
    334
    Time to chime in I think, even though my arguments are probably rubbish and I cbf to put much effort into making them better.

    First of all I think many people are underrating Lucario's typing- although it is frail, its typing affords it plenty of resistances meaning it can easily live a hit or two, allowing it to switch in and/or set up.

    More importantly, I think Zoro's comparison to regular Lucario is an interesting one, but adaptability and base 112 speed not only make MLuc far better, but also far more versatile- 90 base speed means it is dependent on priority to handle offensive threats- the only really viable priority w/o adaptability was Espeed which was in turn heavily dependent on boosts to do sufficient damage.

    First things first, MLuc has 70/88/70 bulk as opposed to 70/70/70. Obviously this is relatively minor, as it's still quite frail, but it seems to me that little extra defense helps in taking the neutral/resisted attacks that it will need to switch in/set up. Don't quote me on this though, since I've obviously been too lazy to calc (might get around to it eventually) and the difference tends to be hard to pick up on in battles (It isn't something I've been paying too much attention too, and it's a pretty minor difference anyway). Furthermore the fact that it doesn't run LO, while only sacrificing a bit of power on its coverage moves, again helps ensure that it stays alive, rather than taking a hit and swiftly killing itself from LO recoil.

    Like I said, this doesn't make a huge difference since it is still quite frail, but I do think it's worth mentioning, especially since I think it is not quite as frail as many are making out.

    Anyhow, its incredible versatility ensures that generic checks to it are very few and far between- many defensive pokemon are only able to handle one set, while being demolished by sets using the other attacking sets (I mean there's also mixed sets, but that isn't nearly the kind of threat that boosting sets are, it's not really that relevant to the conversation imo). Indeed, its powerful enough that after a boost, many of its checks require only a little prior residual damage to succumb to its assault (Seriously, a lot of the calcs provided are for unboosted attacks, and even then many of the checks barely avoid a 2HKO). Access to 3 decent forms priority make revenging it very difficult- scarfers that are bulky enough to handle all of its priority options are also quite scarce- many can only handle one form of prio.

    Consider also that it can easily function without boosting (I mean it's no world-beating threat obviously) which enables it to potentially punish opponents for staying in on a predicted set up.

    Now I'm aware that my (shitty) arguments portray it as running every set at once, which it obviously can't do, and no individual set is unbeatable. However, it forces you to either run one of the very few pokemon that can handle all sets, or run multiple checks in order to avoid getting ripped apart because it wasn't the set you were equipped to deal with

    In case it wasn't obvious, I'm favouring a Ban at present. However, I'm aware my arguments may not be that great (Even if that's partially because I'm too lazy to actually go to the effort of organising my thoughts and constructing a decent argument), so I'm a little uncertain and may change my position if convinced (If that does occur it'll probably be as much to do with my own ineptitude in this argumentation, but w/e)

    Also, @Neil: Greninja isn't even close to a check- it's incredibly frail and can't take any of MLuc's attacks besides bullet punch
     
  40. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2013
    Messages:
    370
    Likes Received:
    375
    PO Trainer Name:
    GO US-EAST
    Time for a proper post, I'll try playing the devil's advocate here and finding flaws in both arguments.
    Physical movepool- SD/Espeed/Bullet Punch/Ice Punch/Close Combat/Crunch/Thunder Punch
    Special movepool- Nasty Plot/Aura Sphere (Focus miss is viable for a lot more power but less reliable)/Flash Cannon/Vacuum Wave/Dark Pulse/Shadow Ball

    Pro Ban Counter Arguements:
    "After an SD/NP everything dies" Whilst this is fairly true, getting an SD isn't a cake walk. 70/88/70 bulk isn't the worst thing ever (See other mons with even less) but it's still pretty bad. The only thing you'll be taking hits from are non SE moves and if powerful enough, you'll still take huge damage. Now, I said earlier that you can scare things out and set up, but they won't always switch. Competent players will see your bluff stay in if they have no counter. Depending on your coverage move(s) you will always get walled by something. If you have SD/Espeed/CC/Crunch you lose to Gliscor/Lando. If you have SD/BulletPunch/CC/Ice Punch you will lose to Jellicent/Slowbro/Gengar (Not sure if trevenant can take a +2 ice punch, so I won't list it but I think if 252/252 +Def nature it can). For special sets, the average set I think is NP/Flash Cannon/Vacuum Wave/Shadow Ball. This set is more deadly in all honesty, but it's not impossible to beat. Even Offensive Gyrados can beat this and Bulky Gyra has an even easier job. Aegislash can take a +2 shadow ball with enough investment (+2 252 SpA Mega Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 260-306 (80.2 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), although it certainly won't like it (Again, not sure but it is very bulky). Zapdos has a pretty easy job at beating this set as well since Heat Wave is an OHKO even if the Zap is bulky, I believe.

    Pro-NonBan
    Yeah, things can stop it. But you don't know what set it is. If you switch your Lando-T and it Nasty Plots, you're fucked unless you're scarfed. He has a big buff to his speed making it so basicly only scarfed mons can outspeed outside of a select few. He has a very diverse movepool and although you lose some coverage by putting moves, you can beat any mon with this bar Aegislash if it has 252 hp investment. Common teams are torn apart and are pretty much forced to run Aegislash or another mon to stop this. Now, these are by no means bad mons in any shape or form. But you need to run one regardless. Your main options are Aegislash, Scarf LandoT, and Gyra with EQ. All 3 are great mons, but they can easily be dealt with. If spikes/rocks are up, Aegislash and Gyra become a lot less effective. Now, defog is a thing this gen so hazards will be up a lot less often, but they need to be taken into account.

    I want this thing out of OU personally, but I'm a little biased so I'll refrain from saying BAN.

    Also, Talonflame isn't a counter, if it switches into CC with rocks up, it's dead. If you carry Espeed with rocks up, it's dead. You can revenge kill it if rocks aren't up, but this implies losing a mon first to do so.
     
Moderators: Draciel, Finchinator, sulcata
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.