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Suspect Discussion: Kyurem-B

Discussion in 'Gen 6 UU' started by Halsey, Jan 15, 2014.

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  1. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    [​IMG]

    Discuss the possibility of Kyurem-B being banned from the XYUU tier.

    Use this thread to discuss Kyurem-B' effect on the metagame. Talk about the different sets it can use, good partners and potential checks/counters. State your opinion on whether you think Kyurem-B should be banned or if it should stay in the XY UU tier but make sure your posts are backed up by experience and knowledge. Anyone who makes post based on theorymon risks being infracted.
     
  2. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    Yeah kind of an obvious ban.

    Really, I don't even understand why it deserves a vote. It's base stats are downright unfair, it has the movepool is way too abusive, and is far too bulky to even revenge kill without a Super Effective move. 95 Base Speed isn't amazing, but it's enough to outrun and kill a good portion of the tier. Having 170 Base Attack with few real good physical attacks (DClaw, Outrage, Iron Head, and Fusion Bolt) can keep it from becoming too much of a threat immediately, but 120 Special Attack with moves like Earth Power, Draco Meteor, and Ice Beam?

    It can do anything. It can use Substitute, Expert Belt/Life Orb, Choice Band, Choice Scarf, hell even Assault Vest effectively and kill stall or HO respectively with them with close to no effort. Hazards are true, but are less reliable seeing that Defog is more used and is used on most teams. It has a lot of weaknesses, but no idiot will have something with that much power without proper protection. Fairies die to Iron Head as well, so nothing is completely safe.

    Bad defensive typing and Fairy weakness or not, Kyurem-B's stats and (mixed) sweeping capabilities are just too much for the tier and is too splashable and abusable to stay.

    Ban it.
     
  3. Daybreak

    Daybreak can't touch this

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    I'm just gonna add a bit more onto what they are saying because they and I have the same thoughts about kyurem-b. Kyurem-b's usable movepool consists of, Outrage, Dragon Claw, Dragon Tail, Draco Meteor, Fusion Bolt, Ice Beam, Focus Blast, Roost, Earth Power, Iron Head, Substitute, Hidden Power Fire (yes ik the debuff it got but it is still very viable), and Sleep Talk. All of these moves hit the entire metagame for at least neutral, and very few that aren't gonna be hit super effectively. It's teravolt ability allow it to hit stuff like bronzong and mega aggron much harder with earth power removing the abilities that make them so good.

    It's base stats compliment it's movepool very well. 170 attack and 120 special attack allow it to hit rediculously hard on both ends of the spectrum and usually those stats allow kyurem-b not needing to predict as much to net the ko's it can easily get. Do I even need to talk about choice banded/scarf sets? 125/100/90 defenses compliment sub roosts sets very well sticking around the battlefield for a while, avoiding status's and sometimes even against strong attacks having it's sub intact. It's only disappointment is it's 95 base speed which falls short of the cutoff of base 100 speed. This means that kyurem-b is easy to revenge kill right??????? Wrong, kyurem-b is soo bulky that it can even take some hits against powerful attackers.

    252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 278-330 (70.9 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 Atk Mega Absol Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 145-172 (36.9 - 43.8%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 Atk Mega Absol Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 218-258 (55.6 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 150-176 (38.2 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 330-390 (84.1 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Some common attackers fail to get the ko's on kyurem despite having super effective hits and it isn't that hard to maintain kyurem healthy with the addition of the defog buff. The closest thing I have come to a counter is physically defensive jirachi and even then it can be hit by earth power for 37.6 - 44.5% without even using an expert belt or any special attack investment.

    It's stats, movepool, and versatility are just too much for the tier at this point and it should be banned.
     
  4. Rake

    Rake Banned

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    A bigger no brainer than the Blaziken ban. I'm off to get as high as possible on the ladder before you guys ban it though.
     
  5. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    The scarf set actually isn't all that great, and I really don't feel like elaborating on that right now.

    Doesn't make its LO set any less impossible to switch into. I've been using Roost/Ice Beam/Dragon Claw/Fusion Bolt and its pretty much all you need. The thing about LO is that it doesn't have that much of a dependence on prediction as CB has. Dragon Claw pretty much KOs anything that doesn't resist it when they get below 80%, while mixed walls like Chansey and Sylveon need to be at maximum at all times to not be 2HKO'd by Dragon Claw and Fusion Bolt, respectively. LO can't break everything at once, since pokemon such as Mew and Sableye just burn and laugh at it while Sylveon itself beats it if it can avoid Fusion Bolt - still has to be at peak condition though. Chesnaught's a pretty fun check, since it can kill with Hammer Arm after stalling a bit with Leech Seed+Spiky Shield, but Ice Beam kills you.

    Offensive checks not mentioned in my self quote above that can actually switch in and not get 2HKO'd are pretty far and few between:

    Mega Gardevoir can obviously switch in on Dragon Claw or Ice Beam.
    Scarf Rachi is shaky, as it gets 2HKO'd by Fusion Bolt. It "only" gets 3HKO'd by Dragon Claw, but that's still mediocre considering scarf Rachi is easily walled and is a welcome mat for Defog Zapdos or Empoleon to come in if rocks are down.
    Latias/Mence/Heidreigon/Haxorus can switch in on Fusion Bolt, and can OHKO with their STAB.
    Magnezone walls every set not packing Earth Power, so that's pretty solid. Doublade also takes any set lacking Earth Power, and if you feel like running a physically defensive Escavalier it can tank 2 LO Fusion Bolts and 2HKO with Iron Head.

    That's really about it though. There's actually a surprisingly small amount of super common pokemon Kyurem can actually switch into...but they're all offensive. Most usable defensive pokemon can barely wall it when in peak condition, and some pray for it not to be Choice Banded as well. If it is banded it can honestly just play hit and run games all match; Zapdos and Latias are simply excellent defoggers even with Weavile being pretty nice in this metagame.

    My opinion as it stands is ban. I'd like to be neutral but between LO and Scarf sets, it ravages Stall, Balanced and Offense, while Banded sacrifices reducing Stall to pieces for the power to Outrage everything besides Sylveon, Mega Gardevoir and some steel types. It's too much to account for and play around.
     
  6. Virizion

    Virizion ~ Taste the Rainbow ~

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    I think the main problem Choiced Kyurem-B has, apart from luck-laster speed, is Fairies. While it may seem obvious at first, people can't just think (okay Sylveon is out, time to Iron Head) because chances are the opponent can recognise that (if he/she knows what they're doing, that is) and then switch out afterwards into a Steel-type or something, and tank the Iron Head, resulting in a switch which can give the opponent an advantage. Choice Scarf is a pretty cool item, but it just stops the power that it has, it just becomes not as a powerful for an effective Wallbreaker, and somewhat revenge-killer (thanks to its severely lacking movepool, which is what made it XY UU in the first place). Not only that, however Mixed sets I find not too great as even with the high 170 / 120 attacking stats, it feels that you have to bring Kyurem-B at just the right time otherwise it gets swept by a Moonblast or by an Iron Head it by hazards - which leads me onto another fault of Kyurem-B.

    Stealth Rock, because it takes 25% damage when switching-in, however that doesn't necessarily screw it, HOWEVER the attack that happens next, can screw it over and wasting a valuable Pokémon on your team.
    Speed tiering is another one, as it one of the slowest editions to the Dragons (heck, all it outspeeds non-Scarf are Druddigon and Tyrantrum, iirc), leading all Dragons to have an advantage over it and OHKO it with Outrage (it might not even care that there are Steels and Fairies to take place in the field, that threat is gone completely.

    That obviously doesn't make it bad though, a Pokémon can't be bad just because it's weak to hazards - it's the playstyle of using it to dominate many teams with this thing alone which makes it so incredibly powerful and being able to 3HKO at most everything in the game with Choice Band, become a maybe-surprise-revenge-killer with Choice Scarf, and a fantastic mixed set that helps take on many different threats in the tier. I can do some damage calcs later to prove how fantastic Kyurem-B really is.

    Therefore, I say ban Kyurem-B, but retest it later on if it needs to.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2014
  7. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    The only problem I have against banning Kyurem-B is that it has trouble switching itself. It has lots of common weaknesses thanks to its Ice typing, meaning it has to walk on eggshells every time. However, once its in, it's more or less guaranteed to kill something unless the user's dumb enough to switch it into something that's faster, or behind a Substitute or something (I faced a few of these people).

    Personally, I'm also for a ban.
     
  8. Sleepless

    Sleepless New Member

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    If Kyurem-B gets banned, Regular Kyurem will underperform it's mixed sets and Haxorus it's full physical offense. Does the checks/counters of this two just can't manage Kyurem-B or will the ban of Kyurem-B ( if ) will just get Kyurem and Haxorus to being suspected ? This is a question I think should be kept in mind when considering Kyurem-B's ban-worthiness.
     
  9. Xdevo

    Xdevo The bear was upon Tom Tiering Administrator Tour Director Tiering Administrator Tour Director

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    The potential brokenness of other Pokemon does not and should not have any affect on the outcome of the suspect of another Pokemon.


    As for what makes Kyurem-B different from the two mentioned; regular Kyurem doesn't have the 170 Attack stat that would let it demolish would be checks. 130 stats are much more managible than the monstrosity that is it's alternate forme. The only thing that Kyurem itself does "better" than Kyube is SubRoost with Pressure. With the new ability to hit behind subs with Sound attacks (Sylveon, MeGardevoir, anything with Infiltrator), and the fact that the metagame is quite offensive at the moment really puts a damper on setting up subs.

    For Haxorus, it's the lack of bulk, mixed attacking potential, and overall lack of attack (which is saying something when something with 147 atk is "weak") that holds it back. The DD sets would be better off done by Salamence, while the Swords Dance sets have trouble setting up and are generally too slow to really sweep effectively. Haxorus takes a lot of damage even from resisted attacks (Thundurus-T's Thunderbolt does around 50% to Haxorus, while only 32% to Kyurem-B), and doesn't have the general ability to break dedicated walls without some form of a boost.
     
  10. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt. Forum Moderator Server Administrator Social Media Rep Forum Moderator Server Administrator Social Media Rep

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    Supporting Kyurem-B's ban. There is little to nothing that can stand in the way of it in UU, offensive or defensive.

    I have used it in a majority of my teams in UU and even with SR up very little can actually KO it (and things that fail to KO it are essentially guaranteed to be KOed back). I think Kyube's best set is Sub/Outrage/Earth Power/Ice Beam. The only pokemon in the tier that stand up to this set defense-wise are Sylveon and Florges, which lose to dedicated physical sets like CB, HC set and LO as long as the Kyube user isn't dumb. I usually use leftovers but LO can be pretty great for it too. I usually use it in a team with Sticky Web too. If Sticky Web is up Kyube can basically sweep with no preparation needed. But yeah Kyube has an absolute ton of sets that are all basically broken in their own way. It does have some fairly common weaknesses to Fairy and Fighting that mean it's not that hard to revenge but then again it's not that hard to switch out either, having 5 switch ins with SR is way more than it needs to blow holes in any team, and that's assuming you haven't packed one of the many pokemon that can easily Defog or Rapid Spin in the tier.

    Simply put, my experience with Kyube is that it's far too easy to get into play (common resistances and high bulk), blow a chunk out of or KO multiple pokemon regardless of their bulk and then get out of play again. It's easy mode in UU for me. Definitely needs a ban.
     
  11. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    It has already been said, but Kyurem-B honestly is still very much powerful and extremely hard to play around. 170 base attack, 120 special attack, and it's own version of mold-breaker with a slightly sub-par 95 base speed and a decent mixed move-pool is still enough to destroy anything in it's path that doesn't try to go full bulk. Choice Band/Scarf sets have the power to increase the destruction it causes at the cost of being locked into one move, which with good prediction or a Pokemon with protect can work around it and hopefully have something to take a hit and send it back out. Expert Belt really messes with players who try to switch in a fairy after seeing Dragon Claw/Outrage and eat an Iron Head for their trouble, as well Fusion Bolt provides a great extra move that will mostly finish off a 2HKO on anything resisting it's STAB Dragon attack. Ice Beam/Earth Power are great coverage moves for it to have. Ice Beam takes down the bulky Hippowdon that otherwise laughs at the physical moves Kyurem-B packs. Earth Power is a way for it to hit steel types on a switch in or just outright hit them if they are out anyway.

    Dragon Claw, Fusion Bolt, Ice Beam, Earth Power/Roost would probably be the set that would optimise the destructive power. Iron Head is an optional move, but most fairy types get 2HKO'd by Fusion Bolt anyway, and it's only really there for extra precaution if you feel like it. Outrage can be used, but I'm one of those who hate being locked in especially with the Steel and Fairy types going around and not wanting to lose it because of getting locked in, but also not wanting to lose the chance to attack with it's powerful STAB move.

    As far as checks/counters go, there's really nothing almost. No fairy wants to risk eating 2 Fusion Bolts as even with defensive EVs they aren't going to do much back.

    252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 206-243 (52.2 - 61.6%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKOafter Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 179-212 (45.4 - 53.8%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 201-237 (55.8 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 174-205 (48.3 - 56.9%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 270-318 (97.1 - 114.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

    They both have the power to 2HKO back with their fairy moves after protecting the first turn and playing some wish support on the LO sets, but on banded sets they are dead in 2 hits. Scarf/E-belt sets they have no problems dealing with and just laugh at it as they heal up and attack or provide needed support. On LO or banded Mega-Garde is dead almost every time. Remember that speed doesn't change on the first turn of the Mega-Evo, so Gardevoir already has to have been mega-evolved to take Kyurem-B on, because even at max speed + nature, Kyurem-B outspeeds it with a non boosted nature if it runs max speed by 5 points. A 20% shot of not being OHKO'd by a LO set is a really risky thing to do.

    As for other things:
    4- SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 351-413 (83.5 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    4- SpA Expert Belt Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 324-382 (77.1 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    4- SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 351-413 (83.5 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Hippo is dead. Not hard to run a stab move that dominates specially weak mons that outlive your physical hits.

    252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Jirachi: 170-201 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    4- SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 68 SpD Jirachi: 166-198 (41 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    4- SpA Expert Belt Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 68 SpD Jirachi: 154-182 (38.1 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    4 SpA Expert Belt Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 68 SpD Jirachi: 170-202 (42 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    4 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 68 SpD Jirachi: 185-218 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Jirachi, honestly it can live with a defensive set with wish support and barely miss dying as long as no hazards are on the field that give it the tiny bit chance to 2HKO. Giving Kyu-B a Naughty/Lonely nature that will take away from it's bulk can't even get the good chance to pull off a 2HKO on this thing. Against a Scarf/Banded standard Jirachi obviously these calcs would jump up to the point that Jirachi dies in 2 hits easily, and still requires to pull off a flinch (unless LO damage has happened on LO sets) with Iron Head, otherwise it's dying too.

    4- SpA Expert Belt Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Doublade: 122-144 (37.8 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    0 Atk Doublade Gyro Ball (107 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 252-296 (64.4 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    4 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Doublade: 146-172 (45.3 - 53.4%) -- 32.4% chance to 2HKO

    252+ Atk Doublade Gyro Ball (107 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 342-404 (87.4 - 103.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
    4 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 234-276 (72.6 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Anti-Meta Pokemon Doublade manages to 2 shot it with either Gyro Ball (while it'd be a 3HKO or possible 2HKO by Kyu-B depending yet again on running a diff nature than normal. It can easily revenge kill when it's a standard HP/Att set, but to revenge kill that would mean that something would have had to die in the first place, so Kyu-B would have already snagged at least one kill. And even then that "revenge" kill is a shaky 20%

    Not to mention the plethora of pokemon that can easily support Kyu-B. Terrakion manages to kill it with CC and if it's not scarf will outspeed. Pair it with something like Mew or Sylveon and Terrakion is a lot less scary. Mew Defogs Rocks away and burns physical attackers while roosting off damage, Sylveon has wish support and heal bell. Jirachi, Vicitini, Doublade, Chandelure, Metagross, Empoleon, Forretress all take Fairy hits for Kyu-B and in return do something whether it's setting up a Pokemon with offensive presence or removing a hazard and setting up your own. There's honestly a lot of things that support teams in some way for type match ups or general support in the tier currently that work even though you really need a trio to match up weaknesses and resists and make the most of the support and offense, but they do it so well that the offensive pressure is usually too much for teams.

    This is basically how it goes for mixed sets and as I've used some myself in battle. Banded/Scarf can do wonders, but LO sets and occasionally E-belt if you wanna play safe can really do damage, especially because people can assume Scarf/Banded and sent in something they normally wouldn't want to and eat a bad hit, which is all a very good possibility. It can be semi-easy to play around with a fair amount of good predictions, but you are going to end up eating a big hit at some point which can cause losses very easily. I think that Kyurem-B has enough support and devastating power in its own right that it's better off banned from the tier.
     
  12. Laurel

    Laurel Well-Known Member

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    I'm definitely pro-ban.

    Reasons to ban Kyurem-B

    170 Base Attack / Choice Band Set

    This in and of itself is suspect worthy. In comparison, Weavile is an extremely dangerous ice-type attacker, and it hits just 120 attack. 170 Base attack, surpasses most walls defenses, Slowbro, for example, by 60 points. Slowbro can not safely switch into Kyurem at all, and a Choice Band Outrage from Kyurem-B nearly OHKOs, and Fusion Bolt does even more.

    252+ Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Slowbro: 267-315 (67.93 - 80.15%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Lets not forget that the Choice Band set nearly made Kyurem-B suspect from OU at the end of the Black/White 2 era. I would argue that this set almost always autowins against stall teams baring ones that carry Fairy types, or completely outplay the Kyu-B user.

    Unpredictability

    One of the main reasons why Mega Lucario was just banned from OU was its unpredictability. Kyurem-B can run a good amount of different sets in XY UU including Choice Band, Choice Scarf, Sub Roost, Mixed Special Attacker, Mixed Physical Attacker, and Shuffler. One of the Choice Band sets few good switch ins is Duoblade, which reaches an insane 504 base defense with Eviolite, but it is 2hko'd by Kyurem-B Earth Power. In addition, Kyurem-B can sub on the switch in and cause immediate pressure to the opponents team.

    Defog

    Defog makes Kyurem-B even better. XY UU does not have Bisharp, which gives defog absolutely no draw back. This makes it easier than it ever was before to switch in Kyurem-B and immediately start causing havoc.

    Offensive Typing

    Dragon is only resisted by Steel and Fairy. There is an extremely low amount of viable (imho) steel and fairy types in UU. There is Sylveon, Florges, and to a lesser extent Granbull, and then for steels there is really only Duoblade and Mega Aggron (sorry if I missed any). Other then that, nothing is not 2hko'd by outrage, and Kyurem-B actually gets Iron Head which can OHKO the fairies on switch in if they are uninvested in defense after rocks.
     
  13. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Hopping on the ban bus. A lot of people have talked about its insane power, and rightly so: 170 base attack is beaten only by Mega Heracross, and since Kyurem-B can hold boosting items it can out damage the beetle. 120 base special attack is no laughing matter either - hell, Genesect, Arceus and Giratina-O all manage to be potent offensive threats with it. While there are Pokémon with similar levels of power, don't forget about Kyurem-B's bulk - it actually has better overall bulk than Bronzong. The combination of insane power and great bulk seal the deal on Kyurem-B for me.

    Oh and don't bring up weakness to hazards.
    1. In the old days, every team (at least every good one) had Stealth Rock. Not so anymore - if you're using a Pokémon with Defog, why bother?
    2. UU gained 3 great spinners in Starmie, Mega Blastoise and Donphan.
    3. Defog. Stallbreaker Mew and Defensive Zapdos can take almost any neutral hit and reliably Defog.
     
  14. The Tempest

    The Tempest Banned

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    'Is Kyurem-B too powerful for the UU tier?'

    Is the pope catholic? Do bears shit in the woods?

    Seriously, this thing has stats that make it a solid OU choice, it was designed as an Uber pokemon, in my opinion it should stay in Ubers anyway, but if we can't have that there is no way it should be UU. Biggest joke I have ever heard that people have even bothered to suspect. Read the whole threat for calcs I wouldn't have provided, even if they hadn't been posted, but you get my drift. Ban the pissing thing quickly for once please PO.

    Oh yeah, I thought I'd be a picky cunt and mention Deoxys-A (180). Not that it matters or anything.
     
  15. Scatterbrain

    Scatterbrain You only live once*

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    Let's make a pro / con list about Kyurem-B.

    Pros:
    Strongest attack stat in the tier.
    A somewhat good base special attack stat of 120.
    Middling, somewhat depressing low speed but still enough to outspeed some counters, most notably regular Gardevoir (also on the turn it mega evolves, but you can waste a moveslot for protect to solve that).
    A good 125/100/90 bulk that allows it to tank some neutral and NVE attacks.
    Mold Breaker, which means it can hit Levitate Bronzong for super effective damage with Earth Power.
    Diverse movepool on both Physical and Special sides.

    Cons:
    Very frail typing, giving it Fighting, Rock, Steel, and Dragon immunity, all that are extremely widespread in terms of usage as far as XY UU is concerned.
    Outsped, checked, countered, or any combination of them by a debatably large amount of the metagame, most notably including Mega Gardevoir, Weavile (specifically ones with Low Kick and Brick Break), Terrakion, Virizion, Cobalion, Hawlucha, Infernape, Keldeo, Mega Medicham, Mienshao, Jirachi, Whimsicott, Metagross, both regular and Mega Aggron, Escavalier, and Doublade. (I bolded the ones that are more common in usage for convenience)
    Vulnerable to all statuses except freezing, with varying effects that can cripple it.
    Takes 25% from Stealth Rock.

    Notable moves:
    Outrage
    Dragon Claw
    Fusion Bolt
    Freeze Shock
    Iron Head
    Ice Beam
    Earth Power
    Draco Meteor
    Substitute
    Roost

    I'll update this list more as time goes.
     
  16. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    I agree that Kyurem-B is too strong for the tier, but I don't understand why it was chosen to be suspect over Manaphy or Mega Heracross. Tail glow Manaphy is very hard to stop..its only checks as far as i know are fast electric types such as Thunderus-t, and with it's decent bulk it can live almost any non grass/electric or boosted attack. As for Mega Heracross, with the heavy presence of knock off, it's old counter Gligar is neutered. Even if it doesn't lose it's Eviolite, bullet seed does a solid 30%. Gligar also can't roost up because it would lose it's flying type making bullet seed hit harder. Kyurem-B should definately be banned, but I think these two are far more broken.
     
  17. SilverPT

    SilverPT Member

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    CB Kyurem-B OHKOs almost every mon in UU with the right 4th move slot.
     
  18. Arceus_17

    Arceus_17 Avoid eye contact

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    That doesn't mean anything. Just to give an example, Rampardos and Slaking used to OHKO almost all the NU tier last gen without even the need of "the right 4th move slot" and they were by no means broken. Why not? Because they had serious crippling flaws. Kyurem-B also has them (obviously to a much lesser extent). I can mention its bad typing, its odd speed stat and also its reliance on Outrage, which after locked in it, Kyurem is taken out of the match relatively easier with a faster strong super efective move or, if it is holding a Choice Scarf, most bulky Steel or a Fairy Pokémon can deal with it. Also a mention to the famous Sub Kyurem, since it is much less viable with the popularity of Sylveon and MGardevoir.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2014
  19. SilverPT

    SilverPT Member

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    Yes, because Rampardos with his glorious bulk and speed and Slaking with his marvelous ability are definately in the same page than Kyurem-B. These type of arguments (comparing the "brokeness" of one mon to denigrate the other) shouldn't be used.
     
  20. Arceus_17

    Arceus_17 Avoid eye contact

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    *sighs*

    Who even said Rampardos and Slaking are on the same page as Kyurem-B? I mentioned them because they share a common thing with Kyurem: their undeniable raw power.
    Also, please, don't say what arguments should or not be used like you have some moral authority do to so. My previous post was well structured and not just some pseudo-sarcastic sentence. Moreover, you should be the one to refrain from posting anything that won't add shit to the discussion.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2014
  21. Neil.

    Neil. New Member

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    The main aspects of Kyubes' brokenness in the UU metagame have already been elaborated on in this thread, so i'll just leave with supporting the ban. This thing is a complete monster and needs to be BL immediately
     
  22. Sky Sentinel

    Sky Sentinel You see?

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    I just want to make sure that we're assuming that all of it's possible matches (such as Terrakion, Manaphy) stay unbanned in UU, correct?
    edit: (forgot to finish post, sorry)
    Yes, we are.
    Alright, well, while I did vote last gen for it to be unbanned from UU, I have completely rethought this. Now that hazards are much less of a threat and it has no reason to be afraid of any sort of sun team/setter (maybe aside from Charizard Y), I see no reason not to ban it. I mean, 170 base attack is incredible in itself. Add in decent defenses and no really easy way to stop it from switching in several times with a Choice item and nuking something before it gets taken out with the introduction of Starmie, Donphan, and Defog in UU... and you get my point.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2014
  23. Daybreak

    Daybreak can't touch this

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    anything that is usable in the uu tier at that point can be discussed as a counter, so yeah if you want to use terrakion in an argument to prove kyurem-b is not broken then yes you can
     
  24. Proof

    Proof Well-Known Member

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    Kyurem-b's not nearly as broken as you guys are saying imo. I'm for a ban, but some people are acting like kyurem is some kind of UU god. It hass retarded power, and that, in conjunction with its decent speed stat, good movepool (physical and special) and really nice bulk (as aforementioned by a lot of people) are what make it bannable. Although, Kyurem is still manageable, it's one of those pokemon that has no counters-- and you need a specific check on your team so you dont get demolished every time it comes in. Still, I find chansey much harder to deal with, and I don't think kyurem is always the most feared pokemon on a team in UU. Obviously chansey and kyurem arent comparable as pokemon, but my point is that kyurem is not the scariest thing in the tier (in my opinion) or so obviously ban-able that it should go without a vote (although the majority want it gone anyway).
     
  25. Orcelot

    Orcelot AKA Angelus

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    First thing I want to say is that I'm going to be co-leading the tier with Hikari, just so everyone is aware.

    I spent a while last night testing Kyurem-B on a couple of different teams so I could get a proper idea of how good it is. This is something I highly recommend you all do if you haven't done so already. It is difficult to properly judge a Pokemon when you haven't used it yourself. In terms of pure wallbreaking, I would say the 'best' set is Dragon Claw / Fusion Bolt / Ice Beam / Earth Power @ Life Orb. 9 times out of 10, you're better off attacking rather than using a turn to roost off some damage, at least in my experience and having four coverage moves makes Kyurem extremely difficult to switch into. The CB set might hit harder but it is far easier to play around overall.

    Kyurem-B is definitely one of the most dangerous Pokemon in the tier right now but many people posting in this thread are really exaggerating how good it is. You guys are making it sound it is getting a guaranteed kill each and every time it comes in, which is completely untrue (at least against well prepared teams), it's certainly not a 'no brainer ban'. I would like to point out that while Kyurem-B does have very good bulk for something with such high offenses, its typing is still terrible defensively. Stealth Rock may be easier to get rid of now, but it still has to deal with the many weaknesses that Ice typing brings. It's actual switch in chances are quite limited, especially since the tier is so offensive. Looking at the usage stats, the top 10 most used Pokemon in UU are Sylveon, Latias, Terrakion, Gardevoir, Jirachi, Salamence, Heracross, Kyurem-B, Keldeo and Weavile. Kyurem-B is very threatened by most of these Pokemon and it can't safely switch into a single one of them.

    Most of those moves you listed are terrible options for Kyurem-B. Why would you ever use Draco Meteor? That's a total waste of a moveslot.

    Kyurem-B is really not that unpredictable, especially not to the same degree Lucario is. When I see Kyurem in the team preview I know with 100% certainty that it is at least going to be carrying both Dragon Claw and Fusion Bolt. The other moveslots are likely to be any two of Outrage, Substitute, Ice Beam, Iron Head, Roost and Earth Power. It's just a matter of working out what the last two moves are, which honestly isn't that hard since regardless of what set it is running, it will be dealt with in much the same way. Steel types are always going to be a solid switch in to anything Kyurem-B can do barring a LO Earth Power and you can always scout for that if you fear it may be carrying it.

    Low amount of viable steel types? How about Jirachi, Metagross, Bronzong, and Magnezone? Please don't make stuff up just to support your argument. It's true that there aren't many good fairy types in UU, but there's plenty of viable steel types available.

    How about you actually elaborate on why you think it is broken? Either that or don't bother posting here at all, because posts like this are just useless and don't contribute to the discussion at all. A high BST does not make a Pokemon broken. As for posting calcs, they should be used to support your argument, not be the base of it.

    This thread is for discussing Kyurem-B as a suspect, so this isn't the place to talk about Manaphy and Mega Heracross. If you would like to bring up other Pokemon as potential suspects, then please post about it here.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2014
  26. Daybreak

    Daybreak can't touch this

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    congratz

    Although your set is very threatening outright, every single time you come in with it, stealth rocks could be up and with a single attack your kyurem is down to 65% health. The worst part is that your set doesn't 2hko uu's most popular wall atm sylveon. After stealth rocks Kyurem-b only has a 19% chance to 2hko after rocks, and with protect, the 2hko is lost. Personally I think iron head with an expert belt is much better for kyurem-b so it can kill most of the walls. Don't get me wrong earth power is a fantastic coverage move for kyurem-b but i generally find iron head better all around. Although metagross, mega aggron, magnezone, and bronzong get an easier switch in now, they all lack reliable recovery to keep themselves healthy.

    Choice banded kyurem is admittedly a bit easier to play around. However, your options are for getting rid of it are sacking a poke to be able to revenge kill it, or risk the possibility of mispredicting with your walls. Being able to just get rid of a pokemon you do not like is unhealthy for most metagames.

    I understand that for a successful team in this metagame your gonna have to make sure dragon's are able to be dealt with. However, with kyurem-b, preparing for it is a lot more difficult because of it's weaknesses are a more manageable to prepare for. Like you said stealth rocks are easier to get rid of due to defog's buff, however it's dragon typing gives it more switch in's then meets the eye. Kyurem can switch into chansey, zapdos, manaphy, slowbro, roserade, and the list goes on and on. Also most of the top 10 used pokemon in uu you mentioned can not safely switch into kyurem to begin with if the set is unknown. The only one that can switch into it and have a potential of killing it is jirachi, and even then it can take about half unless it is defensive, and if it has taken prior damage before hand can die to fusion bolts and earth powers.



    I will admit listing draco meteor as a usable move was a bit of a stretch(remember seeing it on the ladder 2hko'd my swampert without locking itself into outrage), however every single other move listed is viable. Dragon tail for sub dragon tail hazard stacking teams, ice beam for walls like hippowdon that can at least take a hit against most sets, focus blast for hitting rhyperior and steelix and mega aggron significantly harder that earth power wouldn't without taking significant investment from kyurem's attack stat (aka netting ohko's and 2hko's it wouldn't normally get), iron head for fairies especially physically defensive sylveon, hp fire for escaviler that people have been using as of recent, and sleep talk on choiced sets so it can take amoonguss's spores and still be able to dish out a heavy hit.
     
  27. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I was writing my own post but I'm just going to use this one to help me get my point across a little easier. Thanks for pointing out how over exaggerated people's claims of how powerful this thing is, though.

    I think one of the most important things to notice isn't how hard it can hit, but the fact that Kyurem-B really has no defensive checks. Yes, Sylveon is immune to Dragon moves, you can use your special defensive or mixed defensive Jirachi, you can wall Dragon Claw/Fusion Bolt with Chesnaught, you can at least switch into it a few times with Bronzong if it lacks CB or Earth Power, and Mew outpaces and burns it. However every one of these has troubles switching into either Expert Belt or Life Orb. It very well may be just how the tier is forming right now, but just simply preparing for Kyurem-B when you're using anything but all out offensive pokemon(and a Sylveon because everyone who's high ranking has one or used one getting there) is extremely daunting. And even then it's already been stated that many offensive pokemon either still can't even kill all of the time or simply don't have chances to switch in, without being severely crippled or dead.

    I'm just going to leave some calcs here to elaborate on how hard it is for defensive pokemon to do much to Kyurem without being forced into one of two moves. Please note that it's extremely difficult to keep something like Sylveon or Jirachi at full all the time due to everything else it needs to check:

    252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 179-212 (45.4 - 53.8%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    Let's be honest here, you won't be keeping Sylveon fully healed for very long. Not without becoming set up fodder for Scolipede or a free Victini switch in.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 191-225 (47.2 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    You can't 2HKO with anything else besides full on CB Outrage but these are calcs for the LO set! Still Jirachi's one of the best soft counters Kyurem's got. However it only does this much with Iron Head on defensive sets:
    0 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 192-228 (48.9 - 58.1%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO

    252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 199-235 (47.3 - 55.9%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    0 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 265-312 (63 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    Next.

    0 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chesnaught: 374-445 (98.4 - 117.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    Nope.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 325-385 (89.7 - 106.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    Aura Sphere wrecks Kyurem-B but otherwise if it gets in on Blastoise you're probably dead seeing how it's near impossible to keep it above 90% for a match.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 302-356 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    Chansey's actually not that hard to keep healthy, but it still has to be at prime condition to actually stall it out with LO damage.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 152-179 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    No one runs defense on Deoxys-D. Unless you want to run a shit spread anyway.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 227-269 (56.1 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    Stall breaker Mew stands as one of the few things that can switch in and nearly unconditionally win; it just needs to hit WoW and it can stay in on Kyurem-B all day. If you decide to run Outrage in place of Dragon Claw this isn't true, however DClaw is normally the superior option since you don't run into the trouble of getting revenged.

    Yeah, it's not unpredictable. Kyurem-B is probably one of the least flexible pokemon in the tier in regards to what it can run successfully, although I haven't really tried exploring defensive spreads since offensive ones are so much better. However I think this makes Kyurem-B's potential to be broken even more apparent. No, it isn't an instant win button and I will never try to preach that, however you really only need three moves to hit 80% of the tier that can actually kill you. Earth Power is nice sometimes for stray Mega Aggron, Doublade Magnezone and non-assault vest Metagross(all which are dealt with easily through team support, Zapdos alone takes care of 3 of them), however a simple LO set of Ice Beam / Fusion Bolt / Dragon Claw takes care of most of UU's metagame. That's why Roost is such a viable option especially against more defensive teams, because it gives you a new breath of life to attack a few more times.

    People have been drastically overestimating Kyurem-B's worth, of course. Substitute should be disregarded as a viable option right now; unless you're running Iron Head or something Sylveon and Mega Gardevoir are too prevalent and difficult to remove easily to consider using it. Choice Band is extraordinarily powerful, however you really do not want to lock yourself into Outrage in a metagame as fast as this is, with prediction only getting you so far. Honestly the two sets that really stand out are Choice Scarf and Life Orb(maybe Expert Belt) since they give you the speed over offensive teams and the power to ravage more balanced or stall ones. With LO giving you the freedom to change moves in case you fuck up.

    I still think its ability to very nearly single-handedly plow through Stall or Balance and still cause trouble for more offensively inclined teams even without a scarf is what pushes it over the edge for me.
     
  28. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    First off congrats again on leading UU orcelot. Second, screw that stupid new name, you are orcelot.

    Next, the one thing is that well nothing in that top 10 wants to ever switch in on anything else in there unless you absolutely predict right or outspeed and KO which varies in most cases, because they hit insanely hard mostly on each other thanks to either typing or coverage moves or just flat out power. In some cases, most of those pokemon actually need set up or a turn to heal off damage to really continually deal damage to a team, but Kyu-B can do that without setting up and hit insanely hard and like you said it's better off attacking than roosting. Which for the LO and CB and even E-belt sets I agree with. LO has been my favorite set to use thus far, and facing off against the average person on the ladder they normally feel the need to sack something to bring an offensive presence in on Kyu-B to think they can defeat that way, when it's not even 1 on 1 yet.

    Most times facing Kyu-B I know they'll have D-claw and Fusion Bolt, unless they want to outrage and be fairy bait, and Ice Beam should be run. The major part is finding out Earth Power or Iron Head and be able to adjust if you have the right pokemon for either move. Which Iron Head will absolutely ruin fairy pokemon for you, so that predict on a dragon claw switch in, isn't always great as a LO or E-belt Iron Head is deadly, so you might have to think to switch out again just to be sure, otherwise you'll eat a big hit. Earth Power ones are far more manageable, but still Kyu-B hits insanely hard from the get go and unless it's a CB or CS set which are both easy to work around and the second lacking power, it can be hard to deal with. It's by no means impossible to work around, it's just offensive pressure and being able to spam an attack that doesn't get affected via an immunity and having to force a switch or a diff move from it can be hard to deal with for the average players. I don't really have a huge problem doing this, unless of course my opponent outpredicts me doing these things, which of course puts me in a really bad situation. Which is why I still feel Kyu-B is still bad for the meta at least.

    As for something Pnerd said:
    252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 152-179 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    No one runs defense on Deoxys-D. Unless you want to run a shit spread anyway.

    I run defense, so screw you. It's absolutely fun to pair with rocky helmet as physical attackers can't touch me without tasting some hurt, as I para them with t-wave, knock off their item of recovery or power, and pressure stall them with recover. It's absolutely grand and hated, even ask our best friend on the ladder laurel...as well as several others who know what I'm talking about. Also said Deo-D has won me many matches this way...it's very grand.
     
  29. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    Something I said in the maint thread:

    First thing I want to say is that I don't think there is a move combination for the wall breaker set that can be considered "the best". You use whatever fits your team best.

    75% isn't much better than 65%, specially if you consider the huge damage difference

    252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 191-225 (47.2 - 55.6%) -- 75.8% chance to 2HKO
    252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 147-173 (36.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


    In my opinion, LO is the superior item for wallbreaker Kyurem-B. It is the kind of Pokemon that doesn't last for more than a handful of turns in a match, so you might as well hit as hard as you can while it lives. Expert Belt is good for surprise kills, but in overall Life Orb is better.

    Also while is true Metagross, Mega Aggron, etc lack reliable recovery, wallbreaker Kyurem-B can't afford running Roost on most of its set, so wearing it down is actually way easier than wearing down those Steel-type Pokemon.

    And lastly, Expert Belt usage is practically none:
    [​IMG]

    Viable doesn't necessarily make them good. Sub Dragon Tail is asking for troubles in the current metagame, completely free switch in for Mega Gardevor and Sylveon. Focus Blast isn't reliable at all, you are better off using Earth Power in pretty much all scenarios. And HP Fire only does slightly more damage than Fusion Bolt to Assault Vest Escavalier (most common set right now) assuming no SDef invesment, both moves 2HKO it.

    Ice Beam and Sleep Talk are good tho. The latter is very situational, but the CB set doesn't need a 4th move anyway.

    Well you just named a bunch of defensive checks. Sylveon, Doublade, Jirach and Mega Aggron easily are Kyurem-B's best defensive checks, Kyu-B can deal with them if it uses the right move but even then they all give it some trouble.

    I actually used stall for a bit (peaked #3, and fairly sure you saw me using that team) and Sylveon alone was enough to deal with most Kyurem-B, as long as I played smart. Sure the uncommon Iron Head set game me trouble, but I could still play around it with residual damage, like status, LO recoil, hazards (Defog easily remove hazards, setting them up again isn't hard for a defensive team) and hitting it if it tries to switch in.

    The issue with Kyurem-B is that there's nothing you can simply put it in your to make sure it doesn't do its job, that it doesn't need a lot of support (it does appreciate Spin / Defog support, but it isn't a much), and that it doesn't need to "waste" any turn to setup. Regardless of what you are running (Except 6 Scarf Fighting mons, I guess), one of its set will always be a huge threat for your team.

    Well if it is running Recover, it won't have any trouble outstalling Kyurem-B because faster.
     
  30. Orcelot

    Orcelot AKA Angelus

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    It is indeed true that LO Kyurem-B with no roost will get worn down quickly, but that's the trade off when you can 2HKO a large portion of the tier while being able to switch moves. Iron Head is definitely a viable option if you want to guarantee the 2HKO on Sylveon but beyond that, its use is limited.

    I am not really sure what you are trying to say with that last sentence. Are you implying that CB Kyurem-B is always getting a kill once it's in? As I've already said, that is simply not true. With both Fairy and Steel types in the tier, CB Kyurem-B is very reliant on good prediction. It's certainly not easy to switch into, but you can't just mindlessly click Outrage, it requires some thought.

    How are Kyurem-B's weaknesses more manageable than other dragon types? Ice typing gives it many weaknesses without giving it any resistances. The hazard weakness is more manageable now but Defog isn't a sure thing. Sometimes you may not get the chance to use it. Also, switching into Chansey isn't a good idea as you either need to be holding a Choice Band or lock yourself into Outrage to ensure that you 2HKO it and your expert belt set doesn't even come close to 2HKOing Chansey with Dragon Claw. You are right about the other Pokemon you listed though, assuming that you can avoid the Scald burn from Slowbro and the Sleep Powder from Roserade. My point about the top 10 Pokemon wasn't that they could switch into Kyurem-B, but rather that these Pokemon make it hard for it to bring into play. If Kyurem-B can't switch in safely then it can't do anything.

    I'll give you Sleep Talk, it is 'useable' if you really have nothing else to take sleep moves but I'm doubting the viability of the other moves you've talked about.

    Earth Power vs Focus Blast:

    4 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mega Aggron: 179-213 (52 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    4 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mega Aggron: 239-283 (69.4 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Sacrificing attack EVs is not needed for either move. Note that I just took the most common Mega Aggron set according to the usage stats, it is possible for Mega Aggron to use a +Special defense nature but even then, it is still taking 47.6 - 56.6% from a LO Earth Power. Not going to bother calcing Steelix and Rhyperior because Steelix is taking more damage than Mega Aggron is and Ice Beam does more damage to Rhyperior than Focus Blast does. So basically, the only thing Focus Blast is good for is doing slightly more damage to Mega Aggron (steelix is very uncommon) which is not really needed since Earth Power is already doing plenty of damage to it.

    HP Fire is near useless since Escavalier is 2HKO'd by Fusion Bolt while HP Fire doesn't OHKO it and every other steel type is hit harder by Earth Power. As for subroost, not only do Mega Gardevoir and Sylveon make that hard to pull off but I would rather use regular Kyurem due to pressure being the superior ability for that kind of set.

    This kind of thing doesn't just apply to Kyurem-B, though. Take Mega Heracross for example, it's also very difficult to switch into and has excellent bulk which means that defensive/slow/stall teams are always going to have trouble with it but that's the whole point of wallbreakers. They are supposed to give defensive teams a hard time.


    As I said in my response to Daybreak, my point about the top 10 was not that they can switch into Kyurem-B (although Jirachi is one of the best checks to it) but instead that they make it hard for Kyurem-B to get into play. Kyurem-B has great bulk but that doesn't change the fact that it can be difficult to switch in safely due to Ice typing being terrible defensively and it's definitely not the only thing in the tier that can hit hard without needing to boost. Terrakion, Crawdaunt, Mega Medicham, Diggersby etc all hit extremely hard before setting up.
     
  31. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Mega Heracross can't use Roost to capitalize on whatever it forces out of the field. It can't take advantage of a 95 base speed tier, out pacing an extremely wide selection of bulkier attackers - that still can't switch in and avoid getting 2HKO'd without impeccable prediction themselves. Things that it could possibly switch in on all day - like Mega Heracross can into Weavile to a feasible extent - can't run coverage moves to beat it without sacrificing broader coverage for groups of threats. Mega Heracross doesn't have a semi-flexible fourth move slot or the ability to go mixed, both of which Kyurem-B possess to take down some of its otherwise better checks(Hippowdon for LO sets and band to an extent, Mega Aggron for band etc).

    Yeah, you can say "it's like mega Heracross because both hit hard and tank incredibly well" but that's an extremely vague argument that doesn't hold up due to what Kyurem-B can do once you get over the fact that CB Outrage 2HKO's about 90% of the walls in the tier and look at what its LO set can really do. We're at the point where we need to break away from those kinds of short rebuttals.

    I'd also like to say that in all honesty, the only moves worth running in your fourth slot on LO would be between Roost and Earth Power. Everything else is far too situational and makes you lose out on coverage(which combined with hitting extremely hard is what makes Kyurem so deadly), or doesn't help with either Kyurem-B's ability to survive for a really long time(one of its strongest points). Banded sets should really not be running Iron Head at all as there is 0 reason to.

    I'd also contest that Roost is actually an extremely viable move you can easily fit. Steel types are countered very easily, and honestly you don't NEED Earth Power most of the time; the only reason why Jirachi is ever annoying in that aspect is simply because it U-Turns away from everything it can't easily paraflinch to death. Every other steel is promptly handled by our two electric/flying beasts, Suicune, Hippowdon or Chandelure. Of course none of these counter every steel at once but it's really not all that hard to forego Earth Power.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2014
  32. Orcelot

    Orcelot AKA Angelus

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    You are misunderstanding me.

    I wasn't directly comparing Kyurem-B to Mega Heracross because that would be stupid, nor do I want to turn this into a Mega Heracross vs Kyurem-B discussion. They're obviously very different Pokemon. It was merely an example of a bulky, powerful Pokemon that gives defensive teams trouble, nothing more. It is important to note that while Kyurem-B does have ways to get around its checks which can make it scary to face, it cannot beat absolutely everything with one set. Base 95 speed is also nothing special, most of the offensive Pokemon in this tier are well above that.

    As for the CB Outrage 2HKOs nearly everything comment, so what? Haxorus can do that too. A 120 power STAB move coming off base 170 attack backed by CB is obviously going to hurt. However, there are a few sturdy steel types like Doublade and Mega Aggron that can take at least a few Outrages. Not to mention that locking yourself into that move is quite risky, it leaves you open to revenge killing by many of the faster Pokemon in the tier and it also gives a free switch in for Sylveon/Gardevoir. Using the CB set isn't simply a matter of clicking Outrage and winning.

    Edit: Just to make the above point clear. Yes, I realise that Haxorus can't run a mixed set like Kyurem-B can, but I don't consider the CB set to be a contributing factor to what makes Kyurem-B potentially broken and Haxorus can run a CB set that hits almost as hard. I think discussion should be focused around Kyurem-B's mixed potential as that is what is most suspect about it.

    On the topic of the LO set, I don't really agree that the only options for the LO set are Roost and Earth Power. If you want to reliably beat Sylveon then you need to run Iron Head because you aren't beating a well played one without it. It depends on your team and personal preference. With or without Roost, LO Kyurem-B isn't likely to be sticking around for a long time. Potential hazard damage and LO recoil can make it difficult to properly use Roost. Yes, you can scare something out and take that free turn to use roost but most the time I found it to be more beneficial to hit the switch in hard. Kyurem-B is going to get worn down fast either way. Steel types might be 'easy' to counter but that doesn't change the fact that Kyurem-B is not getting past them without Earth Power (a good player is obviously not going to leave them in against something they lose to) and despite most of them not having any recovery, they still have a good chance of outlasting LO Kyurem-B especially if they have wish support from something like Sylveon.

    I feel it's worth mentioning at this point that I am not saying Kyurem-B isn't broken. I am simply trying to look at this from all sides of the argument. It is by no means a perfect Pokemon. Poor defensive typing that takes away from its good bulk, average speed stat and weakness to hazards (even with the buff to Defog) are all significant problems
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2014
  33. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Didn't mean for you to misunderstand me, since I know your intent was not to turn this into a side-by-side comparison to any one pokemon with Kyurem-B. I simply went into all that in my previous post to illustrate how Kyurem-B sets itself apart from pretty much anything else. Bad secondary typing is made up by that ferocious Attack stat, strong enough coverage moves to bolster its STAB and the bulk to survive many neutral and even super effective hits while being able to Roost on a surprising portion of the tier allows it to be greater than the sum of its parts.

    When I mentioned the CB set, I was trying to imply that it's not its best set to run. Many people see the sheer damage potential and go "Oh yeah, just run CB, wrecks everything so badly" when clearly it's not the case.

    It's actually extremely easy to pressure a Sylveon into a range where it gets unconditionally 2HKO'd by Fusion Bolt. You have to be playing extraordinarily well or have a great team advantage to keep a Sylveon at full health - basically untouched - throughout a match. The fact that many teams depend on it to bounce Wishes around kind of solidify this fact; you're probably going to have to absorb a Knock Off with it, and without Leftovers you're going to hover around 80% the whole match, assuming you can keep healing yourself without becoming set up fodder.

    Steels being easily countered very much so plays into how broken Kyurem-B is, as in the lower tiers very few pokemon are so overpowering they can take on an entire tier all by themselves; Cresselia in LU is the only pokemon in the past 2 generations that I've seen accomplish that. It's not so much as steels being easily countered as it is easy to build around Kyurem-B, to be honest. It only needs something that switches into/sets up on Sylveon all day and another for most of the Steels. Those aren't hard to find or slot in. Then you just need something for the really fast shit that hits hard, which ironically Sylveon does rather well. And that's honestly why I tend to disregard Iron Head entirely; as good as Sylveon is it's a very far cry from being able to tank the whole tier and keep itself healthy easily.

    Also I know from the brevity of your posts/responses to sections of posts that you're playing devil's advocate because someone has to. Thanks for doing so, even if you are the tier leader and it's mildly expected for you or BR to do so.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2014
  34. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    We aren't saying that Kyurem-B is a perfect Pokemon with no flaws because, let's be honest, there is no such thing.

    We're trying to say that the positives overly counteract the negatives. EVERYONE knows that it has a bad typing defensively and it does suffer from an enormous Fairy weakness (Iron Head blah blah blah), but the fact of the matter is that the tier would be much better without it. The fact of the matter is that it's just too powerful and can ruin a playstyle single-handedly with one moveset (Substitute destroys stall bar Sylveon, Choice kills HO, and LO eats balanced teams). Its defenses and speed are average for what it has, but are still enough to work with.

    This Pokemon isn't perfect and everyone knows that. However, you have to be honest, the tier won't be any more balanced with it in.
     
  35. Um Hello?

    Um Hello? Member

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    I'm not sure if I haven't had any problems with Kyu-B because I teambuild better than most of the ban-train or if I just predict around it better. (Also a chance I just don't realise the threat and play merrily without being worried.)

    The only time out of 500 XY UU battles I have lost because of a Kyu-B is when I messed up and allowed it to get passed a lot of boosts so that it was unrevenge-able.

    Will start by nit-picking some things I've read. No offence intended by these, just to correct your mistakes.

    It allows it to be neutral to ice, meaning Scarf Kyube doesn't get revenged by Weavile unless at very low hp. And Jolly LO Low Kick cannot OHKO without prior damage for non-scarf sets.
    This is one of the things neutralising most of the other dragons in UU currently.
    (Some people are silly and don't realise how good Zygarde is though, lol)

    Giving it STAB on ice beam is nice too.

    It does annoy me how one-sided this discussion has been though - with the exception of a few comments.
    I do not and will not consider Kyube an absolute 100% broken top tier threat, the same way as I do not consider Chansey a 100% broken top tier wall.
    It has many flaws, and I find it gets outclassed by other Pokemon, both when I use them and when they're used against me.




    If I'm honest I'm a little unsure what the most threatening set is, or the best, they all have large flaws and it depends on which affects the rest of your team the least.




    I was going to write something else but I forgot what it was, welp.
    ::

    TL;DR

    Kyube is far overrated, however the tier would be more stable without it, sticking to ban.
     
  36. Windblown

    Windblown Blinded, I can't see the end

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    I'm curious as to the point of running Ice Beam on the LO set. Are there any things other than Hippo that Kyu-B really needs it for? Only things I can see right now are for physically defensive Zapdos which gets 2HKOed by Dragon Claw if Rocks are down (and because it's a popular Defogger it's most likely going to switch into rocks) and Celebi?? (I don't even know the viability of physically defensive Celebi, though I presume going specially defensive is more advantageous to its typing) PSEUDO-EDIT: okay I guess Chesnaught, which although uncommon should be used more I suppose.

    Basically my point is that it could be plausible to run both Iron Head and Earth Power to put immense pressure on both Sylveon and Steels which want to check it at the same time, and Steels as a whole are getting more usage than Chesnaught/Hippowdon (though both get a pretty good chunk of usage). Fusion Bolt I think is a fairly safe spammable move Kyu-B can use when it first comes in, threatening something out, which would put an incoming Sylveon within KO range for Iron Head and both Doublade and Mega Aggron in almost certain KO range of Earth Power (well, depending on set, I don't know what's standard EVs for either). The aforementioned Steel types are more likely to be paired with Sylveon because of their lack of recovery as opposed to Chesnaught and Hippo which have recovery moves themselves.

    I do have to agree that switching Kyu-B in isn't the easiest thing to do in the tier because of things dropping which hit really hard as well, but things I would say on the pro-ban side have already been said so I'll lean ban on it too.
     
  37. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    There are some things that a LO boosted Ice Beam lets you hit for slightly more power than Dragon Claw would. Nidoking, Rhyperior, Gligar (see the recurring bulky ground thing instead of having to possibly take a hit?) Mostly those kinds of things, even though you'll probably see Nidoking more than the other two at this junction of the tier. It would give you a nice almost guaranteed 2HKO on AV Tangrowth if it switches in on it thinking you'll go a physical move like fusion bolt or dragon claw.
     
  38. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    I can't be bothered to read through what others have said, so sorry if my points have already been posted/refuted.

    It's CB set does hit very hard, however to break through sturdier walls it needs to lock itself in to Outrage, as non Stab Fusion Bolt or Dragon Claw are fairly low base power moves. If it does decide to lock itself into Outrage, then it is free to be revenge killed by any of the tiers popular Fairy types, Sylveon/Gardevoir and to an extent Florges, or the numerous Fast Fighting types in the tier, MegaCham, Terrakion, Keldeo, Infernape, Hawlucha, or the Steel types that can eat a hit and OHKO it back such as Metagross, Doublade or Bronzong (after rocks). And generally being weak Choice locked and weak to Rocks is bad since you'll need to switch a lot and be worn down by hazards.

    The other set, which im hoping is the main reason for this suspect is the Sub 3 atks set. Will finish later.
     
  39. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    The main set being discussed is largely a Life Orb set without substitute, basically due to Hyper Voice going through substitute making sub Kyurem-B a liability at best. Main 2 moves being Dragon claw and fusion bolt while ice beam, iron head, earth power and Roost have been discussed as other possible filler for the last two.

    Hopefully you read this post (:3=
     
  40. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    Nah, I use Sub + 3Atk set. It's actually pretty stupid because it has enough bulk to tank weaker hits with Substitute and enough speed to make more/attack through it. The only things I found it couldn't immediately break were Fairies (SURPRISE!) and fucking CroCune >__>

    The Sound Move buff truly sucks though :x

    So yeah, Sub + 3Atk is still a viable threat.
     
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