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[Monotype] Kangaskhanite Suspect

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Side Metagames' started by sulcata, Jan 20, 2014.

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  1. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Discuss the possibility of banning Kangaskhanite from the Monotype metagame.

    Post intelligently based off of experience in the tier. Posts based off theorymon risk forum infractions.

    Attempt to find the checks and counters (or lack thereof) for Mega Kangaskhan as well as its impact and power in the metagame. Do not simply say "it's broken" or "it's not broken". Back up your arguments on why you think it should be banned or not.

    If a consensus is reached, the result will likely be implemented in the metagame. Happy suspecting.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2016
  2. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Geez where to begin with this thing. In regular wifi play, it's honestly a terrible thing to play again and fight. Monotype is a different ball game with varying strategies, but Mega-Kanga is still honesty an overpowered pokemon that makes it the most powerful addition to a mono-normal team. Now before people go off on tangents that mono normal isn't good or anything, or go into their Mono-Flying/Steel w/e domination, know that Mono-normal is full of powerful pokemon both offensively and of support use. It's a team with Smeargle (so hazard + spore + sticky web support), powerhouses like Diggersby, Meloetta, Heliolisk, Porygon-Z, and Starptor. As well there are a wide range of support and defensive pokemon/tanks, like chansey, blissey, and snorlax that can tank special hits.

    All those pokemon are dangerous in themselves for having some real power or bulk behind them, but Mega-Kanga is on a different level. Power-Up punch gives it an easy access to a +2 attack, which with a priority move like sucker punch and then powerhouse moves like return and EQ make mega-kanga a one man army. 100 base speed is enough for it to do real damage, and it’s 125/100/100 bulk means it’s not going to die very easily. A majority of pokemon can’t handle this pokemon on their own. Certain pokemon would need to be scarfed or require revenge killing it more often than not. Very little pokemon can actually force it out, like skarmory or some other steel types, or a bulk of ghosts. However, most ghosts are of a dual poison/dark nature, which aren’t the most used monotypes.

    Depending on what EV spread itds going bulky tank of 252 HP/Att+ or 252 Att/Speed+, it’s a huge threat. The first spread works off having sticky web support, in which its speed would overcome natural threats to it like Terrakion, Cobalion, Keldeo, Infernape, and other pokemon that can match up in such a way. If sticky web isn’t managed by Smeargle or defog gets used, obviously this spread is less scary depending on if it manages to get a PUP boost, because it still has priority sucker punch. Most of the threats to it are dual typed fighting, so most teams can come up with something to match up physically, and take it head on, but again 105/100/100 bulk requires something really hard to hit. With 252 HP Terrakion of all things requires LO or CB to do the job about 70% of the time. Without Sticky Web, this version of course is susceptible to powerful pokemon with fighting moves or powerful enough stabs to dent it that run at least some speed, as without speed EVs, mega kanga will only hit about 236 speed, so it can be easy pickings for a team that carries a fighting pokemon (for dual-types and can manage to remove sticky web).

    As for the other set, that runs speed, it takes advantage of that new base 100 speed to out-speed various things without the need for sticky web, and is just as powerful, yet considerably less bulky. Again it runs on needing PUP to boost and then sweep due to its sheer power, which it can do considerably. Once again the only things that really manage a OHKO from near or full HP is powerful fighting STABs or powerful hits from something with insanely strong stats. There are very few pokemon that Mega-Kanga can’t set up and just dominate, and it will net 2 if not 3 Knock Outs minimum if not sweep an entire team.

    Mega Kanga just has an insane amount of power, thanks to its ability. As well it has insane team support (which can include: multiple clerics, wall breakers, several status absorbers, and volt-turn users to help it get on pokemon easier for it to set up.) Not many teams, get many viable options like this, and Mono-Normal on its own can be good, but Mega-Kanga pushes it over the edge.

    Pokemon that can deal with Mega-Kanga to a degree:

    Weakness Policy Aegislash – Secret Sword kills as long as Mega-Kanga doesn’t have a +2 boost from PUP: 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 606-714 (187 - 220.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Destiny Bond users – Mega Houndoom, Sharpedo, Gengar, Froslass, and Mega-Gardevoir can in some way use the move it sacrifice themselves for a pokemon their teams can’t handle. This will take Mega-Kanga down with them, or at least for a switch if they don’t manage to kill or it tries a move that doesn’t work (i.e. sucker punch).

    Terrakion and Infernape: Can out-speed, resists sucker punch, and can KO with Close Combat. Though pretty sure Infernape doesn’t live +2 Sucker Punch.

    Skarmory: Can phaze and roost off damage, preventing early sweeps, but in a 1 on 1, mega kanga can easily boost to +2 or +4 where it dies off, and then mega kanga can basically sweep with sucker punch alone if needed or predict on status/sub users to prevent them working around it.

    Monotype is just too perfect for Mega-Kanga. Limited options on teams to try and kill it in one hit, or status it by living a hit is hard to come by, otherwise it’ll easily manage a +2 and start a sweep. You can build a team around it that forces burns/para’s/poison to force it out and have to stop its momentum, which also means having to heal from a cleric and dealing with said cleric. The only type that prevents it from an easy +2 is ghosts and there aren’t many options to most teams. From there it is just a matter of trying to play around it via hazards and bulky pokemon if a team can find one that is able to phaze. Mega-Kanga should be banned from monotype just because of how many pokemon you are liable to lose very easily, and how many pokemon it normally takes to dent this thing.

    I know rambling a bit, but my keyboard broke about half way through this, so I lost my trail of thought. Though enough for people to start discussing over.
     
  3. Wasabi

    Wasabi New Member

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    I think your vastly overselling how good kanga is in mono normal. Agreed, he is easily the most powerful addition to any mono normal and a must have in all mono normal teams, but that's only because he's arguably the best normal type in the game (outside of Arceus), but the truth is, mega kanga struggles from lack of good support when faced with a threat. Chansey, Blissey, Snorlax, while can take special hits, can't take any physical hit that would scare kanga out. In fact, it's one of the main reasons mono normal struggles so much when facing anything remotely good against them. Mono normal lacks good synergy, something that's necessary to try and achieve for mono type. Normal suffers very badly from this. No resistances/immunities besides ghost, no SE coverage is a double edged sword. They have only one type to particularly fear, but no type to actually wall.

    Very few pokemon in mono normal teams can avoid being 2hko's by a strong fighting type move. Meaning they lack safe switchins constantly. The only normal pokemon used regularly to come in on fighting attacks is Meloetta. and even 252 Hp meloetta is 2hko'd by any stab Close combat. Staraptor fairs worse due to poorer defenses. Besides that, all the mono normals are scared of the same things, meaning they can't help each other out.

    While it's true kanga is powerful, most mono normal teams are exceedingly predictable. You know kanga will be there, and you can bank on pokes like Diggersby, (some variation of Porygon. Porygon2 for defensive, Porygon-Z for offensive), Smeargle being one of the few hazards setters for mono normal. Chansey for a special wall again is very predictable. This makes the entire type very easy to prepare for, cause literally 1 poke can easily threaten all of those, 2 pokes can handle them all for sure. And you have literally 1 or 2 normal types used to stop the things that scare the rest of the team, and they aren't very good.

    People can easily prepare for mono normal cause there are no shortage of dual types pokemon that can share the things mono normal fear, (fighting, steel and ghost). All the cross typings means almost all mono types have things to deal with normals.

    Now be that as it may, Mega kanga on its own is a very dangerous pokemon and I wouldn't be surprised if it's ban is inevitable. I just wanted to make the point that Mono normal is so predictable it's very easy to prepare for. I've found mono fighting and ghost much more successful types for mono type cause of the wide variety of dual typings. Normal has very few good dual typings.
     
  4. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    sulcata mate, what happened to all of the Side Metagame support?
    Anyway, I more or less agree with CP on this one. There are very few Pokemon that can actually check Mega Kanga well, most of the good ones find their place on mono fighting teams. At that many are unreliable. And that list is even shorter when Sticky Web is involved. I've been toying around with both the bulkier and more offensive sets and they are both just incredible. I used Drain Punch > PUP and the survivability was kind of crazy. CP's post covered the main points, minus a few details here and there, but there isn't really much to add onto this. Mega Kanga is definitely broken. Way too good for monotype. A little bit of in depth regarding checks:
    Steel
    Ferrothorn: Ferro can T-wave. Iron Barbs + Rocky Helmet On PUP and Return can be deadly. Leech Seed can sap health. There is potential to win 1 on 1, but this wont be happening too often. This meaning the 1 on 1 situation. EQ also bypasses both Barbs and Rocky Helmet.
    Lucario: Only really wins if Luc is mega'd before Kanga. Priority Mach/Vacuum Wave can KO after Kanga has been weakened a bit.
    Skarmory: Can phase but otherwise loses.
    Aegislash: Can take a hit, but can't 0hko unless Weakness Policy etc etc. What CP said.
    Mawile: Can potentially win 1 on 1 if Mega, but not the most favorite machup.
    Klefki: T-wave and trolls.
    Aggron: Can phaze, I'll calc for Metal Burst and normal attacks later (if necessary).[/HIDE]

    Saving to edit later. Too tired atm.
     
  5. .Rawr!

    .Rawr! c(°3°)כ

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    I'm very surprised until now no one suggested the MAIN mega-kangaskhan counter, sableye. Anyways, although i consider more pressing the Kyu-B discussion, lets talk about megakan: not writing so much becos im on phone

    i'm lately running a monofairy team, and the combination of Intimidate Mawile and Encore Whimsicott (into earthquake) work good again Megakangas most of the times, but that is the point, you need play mindgames and have good prediction to stop it. There are actually very few true counters to it, and thanks to god no one in monotype uses the Bulky-Seismic Toss version, that could be a nightmare.
    Monoghost and Monodark have sableye so no problems there (specially megakangas struggles with monoghost). Subdisable gengar can attempt to play mindgames with it too for poisons. Finally for grass there is Gourgeist like good counter and Ferrothorn which can just suicide killing it.
    Fighting, Rock, Water, Steel and Fire can only revenge kill it with the musketeers, megaluc, infernape and other fast fightings (anyway revenge kill is a bad argument on any suspect thread...)

    So yeah, very few counters and brute offense and bulk with an offensive boosting move, PuP.

    Mononormal don't have sticky webbers lol

    Fml, i forgot about smeargle
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2014
  6. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Smeargle learns sticky web. So, yeah it does have them.

    As well, out of all the matches I've had only mono-ghost and a very highly offensive mono-fighting have given Mega-Kanga problems. Both give Mega-Kanga problems of being able to set up +2, ghosts are immune and fighting can OHKO most times while it tries to set up, unless it's against a weaker fighting user or something using Drain Punch over CC and don't have the power to back up a OHKO. From there Kanga would have to rely on them being dumb enough to attack on mono-ghost therefore using Sucker Punch or hope they have a weaker fighting type that it can set up on, otherwise it needs team support so slow them down a bit and deal damage. Beyond Drifloon or the Hitmons there is no way for their respective types to get rid of Sticky Web easily, beyond a taunt user faster than smeargle's 273 speed.

    Also having Sableye doesn't mean a damn thing for mono-dark. It needs to be able to hit the first Will-O-Wisp, and 85 accuracy is still shaky, so it's relying on a roll there. Otherwise you'll end up pulling off recover duty hoping for a semi-low roll or hoping they are the jolly offensive kind as Adamant can 2HKO sableye if you put in the 252 HP/Def+ until you feel comfortable that WoW will hit on the next charge. Even then Mega-Kanga doesn't get anything by staying in and can easily switch out to one of it's Natural Cure users (chansey/blissey) or many special attackers that won't care for a burn and can deal extensive damage. It'll force it out more often than not (unless you have let it set up +2 for whatever reason), but it's still shaky.

    Can't really argue that. Mono-normal users are rarely ever going to switch out unless it's to one of 5 pokemon: Chansey, Blissey, Thick Fat Snorlax or Miltank, and Porygon2 for defensive scheme on specific hits. They all manage to take Special hits great, while P2 is the sole pokemon that can potentially take Physical hits "well" thanks to 85/90 bulk on that side. But, yeah most do rely on inherent bulk to live a hit and set up and go for the kills, or most times you'll need to sack something to get in a pokemon that can do just that.

    However, while most teams can get "one" thing that scares most mono-normal teams, most teammates themselves can't really stop Mega-Kanga, but only hurt it helping that "one" thing, but to get the thing in (i.e. terrakion/infernape/cobalion/virizion/scarf heracross/keldeo) most times you have to let something die for it to get in safely. Fighting and Ghost are the best stops to Mega-Kanga as long as smeargle doesn't get web up vs. mono fighting or they have a good scarf user to ignore that. Fire, Flying, and Dragon can keep offensive pressure up however, if they fail to OHKO it and allow a +2 they all fear for Sucker Punch and daring to attack anyway (which goes for most teams).
     
  7. Atli

    Atli Time just fades the pages in my book of memories Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Well, as you said, Kanga has very few counters here. It has 125 base atk, Parental Bond (which basically means a free CB without being locked in a move), a damage-dealing variant of SD in Power-Up Punch, good coverage with Return and Earthquake and priority with Sucker Punch. Plus, with 105/100/100 bulk it's not very easy to kill, and Sticky Web support from Smeargle lets it outspeed almost everything but scarfed pokes. That's what makes it so hard to counter.

    You named some counters in Sableye, Terrakion, Skarmory, Aegislash etc. Well, let's say something about them. Sableye is Kanga's main counter, but remember that Mononormal has Meloetta, which can stop Sableye with Dazzling Gleam. There's also guts Swellow if you want to be more creative. Then, after Sableye is dead, monodark teams won't be able to do anything much to stop it.
    Terrakion is a counter only if scarfed, 'cause Kanga outspeeds it with Sticky Web. And monorock hasn't many other counters to Kanga, as they will all fall to kanga's EQ.
    Skarmory can phaze, yeah, but phazing only means that Kanga will come back later to sweep your team when skarmory will be dead or weakened. Weakness Policy Aegislash is a counter, but WP is not so common. Ferrothorn can TWave or Leech Seed, but max def Ferro is still 2HKOed by +2 EQ. And monosteel's counters end here.
    Monopoison can only have Destiny Bond Gengar, other poison types will die to Kanga's EQ.
    Monofire has Infernape, but if Torkoal/Moltres don't manage to remove sticky web (+2 Kanga OHKOs both) it will get outsped and EQ'd. It still can Mach Punch/Vacuum Wave but they aren't powerful enough.
    Quagsire can counter kanga ignoring its boosts, but it isn't really used in monoground or monowater. And very few psychic pokemon (if any) can take a +2 Sucker Punch while doing something back.

    In conclusion, it might be true that mononormal would be quite weaker without a mega, but mega kangaskhan is just too strong for this tier. As Celestial Phantom said, monoghost and monofighting are actually the only two types that can stop it effectively. That's why, in my opinion, Kangaskhanite should be banned from the Monotype tier.
     
  8. Wasabi

    Wasabi New Member

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    It's actually not that hard to counter, because as said, mono normal on a whole shares the same weaknesses, so anything that counters and scares kanga out you can bet your ass something is gonna die, cause he has no support that can come in and take that hit.

    As for sticky web, lord forbid someone put a way to remove hazards on a team. I mean, even my mono fighting team had rapid spin Hitmontop, and that's because removing hazards should be standard on any team regardless of tier.

    Easy sable set Recover, will o, knock off/foul play. Also, believe it or not, Sable actually has a chance to 2hko melo after leftovers recovery with knock off/foul play.

    These are all predictable strats, any competent player sees the swellow sswitch in a mile away. One of the reasons I run knock off on Sable.

    scarfers still exist and Greninja can do a hefty bunch with life orb hydros and outspeed.

    Mono rock is terrible anyways, and rarely ever used.

    But being able to cripple with a Twave will certainly assist Mega lucario and other strong offensive steels, regardless of sticky web. While simultaneously racking up damage from iron barbs+rocky helment+leech seed. Catch my drift?

    Weezing is very defensively bulky, can phaze and burn. Ignores EQ as well. I won't argue that mono poison does lack options, but it's not helpless.

    You keep running the assumption that sticky web is just always there. But that same infernape can stop Smeargle leads, and help deal with kanga with one set.

    Fake out/taunt/close combat/fire stab etc. You don't even need taunt to break the sash and kill the obviously smeargle lead.

    And let's not forget, normal lacks anything good to switch into a stab close combat. and putting u-turn allows u to CC the meloetta, then switch out and be there again for later.

    He can ignore the boost but can't do much else, still comes close to getting 2hko by return, and there are much better bulky water types that can hadle kanga's attacks better. Keldeo, Suicune, Jellicent, etc.

    Psychic is notoriously very weak defensively, both in stats and typing. A mono psychic will always struggle with it's poor defensive options.

    I'm still on the fence of judging his offensive potential as if it was a normal tier. Sure smeargle can set sticky web, but mono bug, mono electric, mono poison, mono rock and mono grass also have that option at their disposal.

    I'm not saying he shouldn't be banned, but I don't think he's that great with mono normal being such a poor defensive make up.
     
  9. Brood

    Brood New Member

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    Mega Kahn is indeed too powerful for monotype.

    Mega Kahn has very few counters, many of which you could argue are only checks. Typically, a monotype team would have to play around Kanga to beat it, because not every monotype team can have Sableye, or Skarmory. Even those 2 aren't guaranteed to stop Kanga (WoW can miss, and Skarm can only phaze).

    Anyways, Mega Kahn is most threatening when it is in a position to come in and revenge kill something with power-up-punch. Monotype, being an inherently offensive tier, could very easily have this sort of scenario. To prevent the Mega Kahn from gaining momentum by revenge killing with Power Up Punch, you would typically send in a ghost type. However, 6 different types don't even have any ghost pokemon, and some types only have crappy ghosts (Bug and Electric only have Shedinja and Rotom, respectively). Fire has Chandelure, which will never beat mega kangaskahn in any scenario, due to being slower, weak to EQ, and frail. Indeed, the best pokemon to stop Mega Kahn are defensive ghosts, due to their ability to stop boosting from power-up-punch, and not care about sucker punch (and of course burn mega kahn). Sableye, Trevenant, and Jellicent do this the best, and Sub/Disable Gengar is also able to beat Mega Kahn, assuming the moveset is PuP, EQ, Return, Sucker Punch. Even so, Mega Kahn has the ability to run crunch, or fire punch in place of Earthquake to beat trevenant + some of the steel types mentioned in earlier posts. Sableye is the best counter, due to the fact that it doesn't fear Crunch, EQ, or Fire Punch. The remaining types which don't have access to these ghosts are really left with no options in pokemon that can stop Kanga, and instead must rely on intelligent and extremely careful play to not get swept by it. Mega Kangaskahn is basically a juggernaut that will at minimum take out 1 pokemon and possibly damage another, and at max sweep your team.

    Also, everything Celestial Phantom said about Sticky Web and fighting types is extremely accurate. Sticky web on mono normal means most fighting types won't be able to revenge kill.
     
  10. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    lol

    Anyway, I would personally say Mega Kangaskhan is broken in Monotype. Defog and Rapid Spin are great things, but Mononormal can carry such an offensive momentum with Mega Kangaskhan that removing these hazards can be difficult; it's not a guaranteed "I don't have to deal with any hazards". After sticky web's -1 to speed, nothing is really outspeeding Kanga that isn't either scarfed or levitate/flying. With a very respectable 100 base speed it can outspeed the majority of the Pokemon that are able to put a dent in it (which is surprisingly difficult as other users pointed out with its buffed defenses). On the offensive side Terrakion, Keldeo, Infernape, and Latios can all do some heavy damage, but they cannot switch in and unless they're scarfed, they'll be outsped after sticky web. Some interesting speed ties (which can all of course be scarfed) include Salamence, Victini (who will die to a Sucker Punch with any prior damage), and Mega Charizard X/Y, but for obvious reasons these are unreliable as checks. Priority users such as Talonflame, Breloom, and such can revenge only if Mega Kanga has lost a good chunk of its health. The only Pokemon with priority that I would say can take on Mega Kanga is Bisharp; however, a Bisharp-Kanga 1v1 will still be a coin flip in the end if Kanga has Sucker Punch which will outspeed and for Bisharp's Sucker Punch to fail, that means whoever chooses the right move between Earthquake/Sucker and Sucker/Iron Head wins the matchup there. Aegislash doesn't win with its immunities and King's Shield either due to the prevalence of sets with Earthquake and because it needs to switch in safely to be able to take the hit and use Sacred Sword.

    Parental Bond turns Kangaskhan's already buffed 125 base attack into a banded 125 base attack stat, with the ability to switch moves, and the ability to break sashes (see Alakazam). PuP is a formidable move with the ability to get a +2 boost while doing a little but of damage, but many times is not required; I have been running a 4-Attacks Kangaskhan with great success so far. Not many things can safely switch into this power and number among bulky ghosts, Skarmory (who loses to Seismic Toss), Gliscor (who really doesn't take the hit that well), Ferrothorn (assuming no PuP or Fire Punch which is unlikey), and a bulky Landorus-T.

    Overall I'm leaning more towards broken than I was before I used Kanga. It really overpowers nearly every Mono I've faced so far and keeps up a great offensive synergy with SpecsPory-Z, Diggersby, and Staraptor that almost nulls the lack of defensive synergy and destroys Kanga's counters under sticky web.

    ~Frustration/Double Edge
    ~Earthquake/Fire Punch
    ~Sucker Punch/Crunch
    ~Power Up Punch/Seismic Toss

    Generally you are going to see Mega Kanga have a set such as this, Fake Out is a possible move over Sucker Punch, but I doubt it has much utility. Seismic Toss really shouldn't be underestimated with its ability to deal a consistent 200 damage no matter what (which breaks Skarmory and Landorus-T). Earthquake is generally the superior option solely because of Aegislash. And Sucker Punch is preferable due to the hyper offensive nature of the tier and the utility it provides; you'll rarely need to predict sub. Frustration v. Double Edge is really just a coin toss between lasting the battle and breaking through bulky mons with ease.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2014
  11. The Danger

    The Danger New Member

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    Where to begin...
    With MegaKangaskhan, victory is almost certainly guaranteed. Firstly, there's it's massive 125 attack, which is boosted by parental bond without the need for choice or life orb. Plus priority moves like STAB fake out and sucker punch mean that it's (already high enough to out-run most Pokemon) speed stat is irrelevant. And if that doesn't sound over-powered enough, it's bulk allows it to take hits like a tank and the mono-normal team on which it can appear is already a force to be reckoned with - with Blissey, Ambipom and Staraptor to deal with!
    It's use basically makes mono-psychic teams useless - and makes other types very difficult to pull off. It was already banned from OU after all - a much more diverse tier where counters are easier to pull off: so why not in mono?

    I realize that MegaKang can be defeated by some bulky Pokemon, like spiritomb and ferrothorn (or others that happen to resist return, power-up punch, sucker punch, etc...) but that means that almost every team being used on mono-type, other than normal, are dark or steel where it's counters are most common.

    overall, MegaKang is just (I'm sorry for the cliche) broken. It's presence interferes with the whole tier and it can only be used on what is already a powerful enough team. There's good, and then there's too good.
     
  12. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    Since there are no real arguments against it's ban, Kangaskhanite is now banned in Monotype.
     
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