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[Final] Talonflame

Discussion in 'OU Analyses' started by Spoovo The Pirate, Feb 19, 2014.

  1. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    [​IMG]

    FALCON PUNCH!

    == General ==

    At first glance, you'd wonder why Talonflame is in OU. Its stats are mediocre at best (aside from that blistering base 126 Speed), and its typing is generally considered awful, what with three common weaknesses to Water, Electric, and (Stealth) Rock. Plus, its name is awful. C'mon Game Freak, surely you can think up a better pun than that? Scorchawk maybe?

    However, the reason Talonflame isn't lost in the depths of NU is its amazing ability; Gale Wings. Thanks to this ability, Talonflame has access to priority Flying STABs, as well as the infamous Brave Bird, meaning it technically has the most powerful priority in the game. Scizor's Bullet Punch and even the almighty Arceus' Extreme Speed can't hope to compare to the brute power of this attack. No sweeper is safe while Talonflame's around, unless it has bulk and resistance to its meaty Brave Bird. A middling base 81 Attack doesn't even matter, because it has access to boosting moves in Swords Dance and Bulk Up!

    However, Talonflame's novelty ends there, really. It has a few fun things it can abuse with Gale Wings, such as Roost and Tailwind, but Brave Bird is its main selling point. At least, until Flying Gem Acrobatics is legal. When it all boils down however, Talonflame is something every team needs to thoroughly prepare for. Sweepers and Choice Scarfers may think they have the last laugh, but as long as Talonflame's alive, the winds can change...

    == Choice Band ==

    Talonflame @ Choice Band
    Ability: Gale Wings
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Adamant nature

    -Brave Bird
    -Flare Blitz
    -U-turn
    -Steel Wing / Sleep Talk / Tailwind

    Wielding a Choice Band, Talonflame's passable-but-unimpressive base 81 Attack stat gets bolstered to threatening levels, and its priority Brave Bird is ready and willing to tear through just about anything. As a general rule of thumb; if it doesn't resist Brave Bird, use Brave Bird.

    The first thing to note about this set - and most Talonflame sets in general - is that it runs an Adamant nature in spite of its far superior Speed stat, which would usually beg for a Jolly nature. This is because of Talonflame's priority Brave Bird. If it already goes faster than other attacks, what point is there in running more Speed? It just wastes power, and the only real difference it'll make is outrunning other Talonflame, which is a moot point at best.

    The EVs are simple, as is just about everything else where Talonflame is concerned. You literally just max out the Attack and Speed, and dump the remaining four EVs in one of the Defences to keep the HP odd. This reduces damage from entry hazards, most notably the deadly Stealth Rock.

    Brave Bird is the first listed move, and by far the one that'll be used most. Simply acting as a priority nuke, it can be used to clean up teams, revenge kill sweepers, or just batter things and soften them up for another sweeper to break through. Given all the positives, the HP recoil is a negligible loss, really. Flare Blitz in slot 2 is a backup STAB, for things that resist Brave Bird. It doesn't carry priority unlike Brave Bird, but it does hit things like Ferrothorn and Skarmory a lot harder than Brave Bird ever will, and thus has reason for usage. U-turn in slot 3 is the obligatory scouting option, and it'll find plenty of usage, allowing Talonflame to chip things and switch back out again, keeping up the momentum. U-turn works best early game, where you can soften up things for the late game Brave Bird nuking.

    Lastly, slot 4 has a few filler options. Steel Wing serves as more or less the remains of Talonflame's movepool, however it also comes in useful for hitting an incoming Diancie, as well as other Rock-types in the vicinity. Sleep Talk is also a good choice, letting Talonflame absorb sleep for the team. The likes of Mega Venusaur will be tempted to use it as Talonflame switches in, as Talonflame is a deadly threat to Mega Venusaur, however Sleep Talk lets it act even after being put to sleep, and also activates Sleep Clause, meaning nothing else can be put to sleep in the meantime, and Talonflame can remove the sleep inducer with a Brave Bird (if you're lucky). Bear in mind that a Sleep Talk generated Brave Bird won't have priority, due to Sleep Talk's normal typing.

    Lastly, Tailwind is another fun choice, as it is essentially a temporary Agility that works for the whole team. Since it is a Flying-type move, Talonflame gets priority on it, and thus can use it before almost any other pokemon, meaning it's a great suicide option.

    The Choice Band is the sole hold item choice, as it is literally the reason this set exists. It can be swapped out for another hold item, such as the Life Orb or Sky Plate, but if you're going to do that, you might as well lose the last two moveslots and replace them with a setup move and Roost for longevity. Hey, wait a minute! That's the next set!

    == Skyward Sword ==

    Talonflame @ Life Orb / Sky Plate / Leftovers
    Ability: Gale Wings
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Adamant nature

    -Swords Dance
    -Brave Bird
    -Flare Blitz
    -Roost

    Freedom to switch moves and a boosting option in Swords Dance changes this Talonflame set from a revenge killer and hole puncher into a fearsome late game cleaner, being easily able to find a turn for setup, and battering everything in sight with a sickeningly powerful +2 Brave Bird.

    The most noticeable difference in this set would be the hold item choices. Due to it not holding a Choice Band, there are some more exotic items available, such as the Life Orb and Leftovers. The Life Orb is the most preferred, boosting the power of attacking moves by a sheer 30%, at the cost of 10% HP recoil. While it holds plenty of power and can really break through teams, the recoil may prove too much for Talonflame to handle, which is the main reason for the listing of the other two hold items.

    The Sky Plate powers up only Brave Bird by a respectable 20%, and carries no HP recoil of its own, but doesn't power up Flare Blitz. However, seeing as Brave Bird is the move you'll be using about 80% of the time, it's certainly worth considering if you dislike how much HP Talonflame loses when using the Life Orb. Finally, the Leftovers are there to do what they always do, passively restoring Talonflame's HP and somewhat alleviating the recoil damage from its STAB moves. It doesn't pack as much power as the other options, but it gives Talonflame more longevity, and that can make a huge difference.

    The EVs and nature remain unchanged, however the moves are a little more interesting (albeit extremely straightforward). The idea is to grab a Swords Dance boost whenever possible, then follow the Talonflame standby and literally just Brave Bird everything. Flare Blitz is there for when there's things you can't just Brave Bird (such as Steel-types), and Roost is a reliable recovery option. Talonflame may be frail, but Gale Wings gives it a priority recovery move, and this can be used to play mind games with opponents, particularly ones trying to hit Talonflame with an Ice or Electric-type move.

    == Spitfire ==

    Talonflame @ Leftovers / Nothing
    Ability: Gale Wings
    EVs: 248 HP / 36 Def / 224 SDef
    Careful nature

    -Brave Bird / Acrobatics
    -Roost
    -Will-o-Wisp
    -Taunt / Bulk Up / U-turn

    If you thought it was strange denying Talonflame a Jolly nature, you can just imagine how insane this set seems, capitalising on its - let's be honest - awful defences.

    However, there is a reason behind the madness. Maximal bulk means maximal setup room, and while Talonflame's is far from impressive, it can easily find the right targets to set up on. The best prey are physically based attackers that can't hit it too hard, with Scizor and Stone Edge-less Garchomp being good examples. Talonflame can burn its targets with Will-o-Wisp, keep itself healthy with Roost, and wear its opponents down with Brave Bird. The last slot has Taunt, which can stop things like Chansey from healing themselves or using support moves, while Bulk Up lets it set up against weaker physical attackers, and U-turn simply lets Talonflame scout around after burning things. All three moves are very useful, and worth considering for the set.

    The EVs are assigned for maximum efficiency, with 248 HP EVs hitting the highest odd number (to reduce Stealth Rock damage), 224 SDef EVs hitting the top jump point on Special Defence, and the remaining dropped into Defence for optimised bulk. Feel free to shift them around a little, or add some more into Attack if you feel the set needs a little more punch, however this set is fully defensive for the sake of maximising setup room. Spreads with more invested Speed are also worth considering. For example, 60 Speed EVs allows Talonflame to outrun and burn Jolly Excadrill, while 100 Speed EVs does the same for Jolly Garchomp. Both sets cut into its bulk slightly, however outrunning these specific threats could be worthwhile.

    == Other Options ==

    Bulkier EV spreads can be used with more offensive sets, because some would argue that Talonflame needs no Speed investment at all due to Brave Bird's priority. A simple spread of 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def Adamant can be used to great effect too, with the increased HP allowing Talonflame to take the recoil from its STAB moves more easily.

    Substitute has its uses in avoiding status and combining with Roost for increased longevity, while Talonflame's ridiculous Speed allows it to give Snatch a try, perhaps stealing a recovery or boosting move from the opponent. Hone Claws is another setup move worth mentioning, although there's little point in using it over Bulk Up or Swords Dance due to both of Talonflame's main attacks being perfectly accurate. It's worth mentioning that it does improve the accuracy of things like Will-o-Wisp, if you're paranoid about it missing.


    Return is there for neutral coverage, although there aren't many things that would necessitate its usage, as there's barely anything that it'll hit harder than Flare Blitz or Brave Bird (Rotom-W is pretty much it).

    Natural Gift can hit the opponent with surprise coverage, at the cost of a berry which could be consumed prematurely, and thus ruin the entire strategy. One berry worth considering would be the Liechi Berry as, not only does it transform into a 100 BP Grass-type move when used in tandem with Natural Gift, hurting common switch ins like Rotom-W and Quagsire, it can also be used effectively even if Talonflame consumes it, getting a free Attack Boost to use should its HP go below 25%.

    Me First is interesting, as it can allow Talonflame to hit an opponent with their own Outrage or Knock Off or something, which can really turn the tables.

    Lastly, Talonflame has a few special moves in its movepool, and a scarcely lower Special Attack base of 74. This movepool includes Fire Blast, Solar Beam, and Hidden Power, giving a Sunny Day set some potential. There are plenty of better users of Sunny Day however (Mega Charizard Y and Ninetales being two very notable mentions), so it's not really worth wasting it on Talonflame.

    == Checks & Counters ==

    Talonflame may hit hard and fast, but it doesn't quite have the raw power to muscle through bulkier opponents, particularly if they resist either STAB (or both). The most prominent of these would be Rotom-W, who resists both STABs, has impressive physical bulk, and can hit Talonflame for super effective damage with either STAB of its own. Volt Switch isn't always the recommended choice, as Talonflame may get cocky and Roost beforehand, but as long as Rotom-W doesn't get worn down too quickly (this can be alleviated with its access to Pain Split), it will always be a solid answer to Talonflame.

    Max HP Garchomp can take a Choice Band Brave Bird, and retaliate with Stone Edge for an easy OHKO (or even Dragon Claw, taking Rough Skin and recoil damage into account), however even it isn't tough enough to take a +2 Sky Plate Brave Bird safely.

    Unaware Quagsire can take boosted hits all day thanks to its ability, and simply Recover off the damage. When the time is right, Quagsire can then strike back with a Water STAB or a Rock move to hit Talonflame hard (note that Earthquake is risky unless it catches Talonflame Roosting). Heatran can take anything Talonflame can throw, even enjoying a Flare Blitz thanks to its own Flash Fire. Heatran does have to resort to Ancient Power in order to hit Talonflame however.

    Physical walls like Gliscor and Mandibuzz can tank a few hits, heal off the damage with their respected recovery options, and chip away at Talonflame, however Talonflame can attempt setup on them if it's brave enough. Beware of Mandibuzz's Foul Play however, which will turn Talonflame's precious boosts against it.

    If all else fails, bulky Rock-types like the omnipresent Tyranitar can take any hit, and simply throw a Rock STAB back at Talonflame for an easy OHKO. Tyranitar won't like U-turn however, and other Rock-types are barely seen in the tier, with Terrakion being the next most common at around 3.5% usage, and even it won't like a Brave Bird very much. If you want a surefire Talonflame counter however, looking into the old forgotten relics in lower tiers, such as Kabutops, Rhyperior or even Regirock, will reward you positive results as well as cool points.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2016
  2. Arceus_17

    Arceus_17 Avoid eye contact

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    Good old Spoovo doing work. Excellent analysis.

    I'd suggest Sleep Talk for the Choice Band set. In my opinion, it should be the first option for the 4th moveslot, though Me First is definetly an interesting move.

    Ironically, Talonflame's hard counters are forgotten Rock-type Pokémon locked in the lower tiers. You could mention somewhere, if someone is really desperate for a clean counter, the following Pokémon: Defensive Omastar, Kabutops, Regirock, Rhyperior and Magcargo.

    Heatran learns Ancientpower which has become increasingly popular.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2014
  3. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Ah, that's a fair point. I did glance over Sleep Talk while browsing viable stuff on Serebii, however decided against it for some reason. It's at least OO worthy though, so I'll get it added in.
     
  4. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Hi again Spoov!

    Similarly to the Azumarill analysis, you could use some division of lengthy general points, like the one that starts abou fake wings can make 2-3 solid bullets. Otherwise, General is spot-on.

    The choice banded set always runs Sleep Talk in the last spot, if I recall correctly, but Tailwind could be a back-slash - not sure about the other two, they seem more situational and OO worthy (sleep talk is situational, but also is viable against a wider away of threats, from Mega-Venusaur to Breloom, also saving your team sleep fodder).

    On the second set, I would front-slash LO for the overall power and increased sweeping prowess, but just my personal insight. Otherwise, well-done.

    I believe their should be a Bulk Up set with decent special investment and the moves BU/Wisp/Roost/BB, with U-turn > BU being viable, but that's, again, just me. It is a really cool and surprise threat against the metagame and cripples does left and right, while slowly sweeping or gaining momentum.

    I disagree with FC even being mentioned in OO, it's already fine in speed/prio department.

    Greninja shouldn't make the C&C - way too frail and uncommon with priority. Garchomp is questionable, too, but I will let it slide. Rhyperior, Tyranitar, Rotom-W, etc. All get a specific or categorized mentioned, and they resists STABs + tank hits, so that's good and what we need.

    Well-done analysis!
     
  5. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    OK Finch, how's this looking?

    I've added in that Bulk Up set, with a nice efficient EV spread (top odd HP, jump point on SDef). I'll get to adding a description in a few hours, but it should be good for now.
     
  6. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    A 48hp/252Atk/208spe ev spread with Adamant Nature is arguably better on both offensive sets, as it outruns MPinsir and Brave Birds it before it goes for Quick Attack.

    Worth mentioning Liechi Berry+Natural Gift (translates to a 100bp grass move) in OO, since it destroys stuff at +2:
    +2 252+ Atk Liechi Berry Talonflame Natural Gift (100 BP Grass) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 328-388 (107.8 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252+ Atk Liechi Berry Talonflame Natural Gift (100 BP Grass) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 322-380 (79.7 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Liechi Berry Talonflame Natural Gift (100 BP Grass) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 280-332 (71 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    Even if you don't use Liechi Berry for Natural Gift, the attack boost given by Liechi Berry nukes something before going down when below 25% health.
     
  7. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Thumbs up.

    In addition, DracoNinja makes a valid point and that should probably be added somewhere (OO, I guess).
     
  8. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Got it. I'll specify Liechi Berry in the OO alongside Natural Gift. Also, I figured I'd keep the mention of Me First on the main set as, even though it is gimmicky, it can be hella fun to (ab)use. :3
     
  9. monferno

    monferno blazing

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    I don't know if I would use Me First on the CB set, it seems way too situational for me. Will-O-Wisp is solid though, common Talonflame switchins (Tyranitar, Landorus-T) really don't appreciate the WoW. Tailwind needs to be the main slash btw, Sleep Talk / WoW / Me First are (kinda) situational, and priority Tailwind is good in a pinch vs every setup sweeper.
     
  10. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Yeah, Tailwind did originally have first listing, but Finch wanted it backslashed after Sleep Talk. Both are perfectly viable though, so I'll let whoever decide which is going first.
     
  11. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Are there any other necessary changes for this thread?
     
  12. [PRO]Duct

    [PRO]Duct New Member

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    [email protected] Berry
    Ability:Prio Wings
    Adamant Nature
    252 attack and rest upto u but i like running some bulk stead of max speed
    Swords Dance
    Acrobatics
    Flare Blitz
    Natural Gift
    basically dont use this set if u cant play around... Its quiet hard to play with but a good knowledge about the playstyles of people agnst talon can wrek havoc with this set.Specially made to okho ttar and wash ftr an sd who think(duh its only a talon,let it set up).Also Flare recoil activates leichi giving attack boost and also boosts acro helping it to complete endgames.
    Fallbacks: Acro is not powerful unles berry is used.Heatran gonna have a gala time but a +2 boosted acro does fuck load.
    Just bait those rotoms and killem.
     
  13. MewtwoHidden

    MewtwoHidden My Hax Makes Me Famous

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    This doesn't deserve a separate set since it merely plays slightly (if at all) differently from the Swords Dance set which is listed. I believe that Shuca berry might also deserves a mention in OO although it isn't as good as Liechi. It hits Tyranitar and Heatran (The Latter for a OHKO at +2)
     
  14. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    First off, it'd be appreciated if you read the above poster (Draconinja)'s post before posting yourself, she already discussed a similar tactic (only provided one-sided calcs, like a non-defensive Rotom-W, but still).

    Regardless, I said earlier that it belongs in the OO and I will reiterate now. I understand that this set has a fair niche and is a viable lure to the most common pokemon in the tier, but it's still situational (with the Natural Gift and Acrobatics in conjunction with Leichi Berry) and not as common (or consistently good) as the normal SD set, which is already listed. P.S: +2 252+ Atk Liechi Berry Talonflame Natural Gift (100 BP Grass) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 240-284 (78.9 - 93.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock [Too bad rocks aren't always up and you /still/ need good varies, but if Rotom-W is weakened, it'll do the trick. Regardless, OO material as it has a niche, but is situational, uncommon, etc.]

    @MewtwoHidden, while I agree with your stance on Natural Gift + Berry not being added to the main set, I don't think that we should include Shuca in the OO as Shuca berry is not as useful (especially since Talon's only need for it is when it uses Natural Gift, no +1 attack like liechi). Maybe, there could just be a bullet that says something along the lines of: "Due to Talonflame having access to Natural Gift, it can run Natural Gift alongside a berry, such as Leichi Berry, to cover pokemon who otherwise defeat Talonflame. This option is best suited for the Swords Dance variants of Talonflame as it will need the boost to break through bulkier counters, like Rotom-W, with Natural Gift."
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2014
  15. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    So... it's good?

    I have this for Natural Gift:

    "Natural Gift can hit the opponent with surprise coverage, at the cost of a berry which could be consumed prematurely, and thus ruin the entire strategy. One berry worth considering would be the Liechi Berry as, not only does it transform into a 100 BP Grass-type move when used in tandem with Natural Gift, hurting common switch ins like Rotom-W and Quagsire, it can also be used effectively even if Talonflame consumes it, getting a free Attack Boost to use should its HP go below 25%."

    That'll suffice, huh?
     
  16. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Yes, the analysis looks good overall.
    Yes, that'll suffice for the OO mention.
     
  17. MetalGross

    MetalGross gems…

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    Good analysis!
    First of all, I believe Tailwind should be the 1st slash instead of Sleep Talk. Sleep Talk is a pretty bad choice on Talonflame imo, because you lose its famous Gale Wings Brave Bird and all that's left is a fast Choice Band attacker that can't even choose its own moves. And Tailwind is a pretty nice move on its own too. I agree with you actually, keep the 252 Speed EVs, it's handy to outspeed and kill [email protected] with U-Turn and speed tie with opposing Talonflame. Same for the SD set: 50% chance to kill opposing Talonflame > gaining a couple of extra HP points.

    I would also remove U-Turn on the Spitfire set. A non-invested Brave Bird is incredibly weak + the fact that a pokemon 4x weak to SR will never really be a utility mon. You can't just slab Talonflame on a team; it needs support to work. Not sure if you mentioned that already.

    I don't think mentioning Garchomp is a good idea. Maybe you can change it to something along the lines of "Bulky Attacker that can take a Brave Bird and KO back". Also, defensive Garchomp can take 2 if you really want to mention him.

    Only nitpicks really, great job!
     
  18. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Yeah, the debate between Tailwind and Sleep Talk has come up in the past, so I'm really just waiting on someone to decide for good tbh, lol.

    You make a good point about U-turn on the third set. I'll get that removed, if Finch agrees (bcus bawss).
     
  19. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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  20. MewtwoHidden

    MewtwoHidden My Hax Makes Me Famous

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    Not much more to say.. Approve (2/3)
     
  21. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Delta Stream

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    good stuff i approve

    QC 3/3
     
  22. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Yay~

    Stuff being approved makes me happy. :3
     
  23. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    All right, soon as you write this one up in paragraph form pm me, Epikhairz or xdevo and we'll unlock one of your other analyses if they haven't been taken yet, since after that our nazis just have to sweep through it once or twice.

    We don't have set GP people yet before anyone asks.
     
  24. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Sure thing Pnerd. That basically just involves removing the asterisks, considering the state I had it in already lol.
     
  25. Rohail

    Rohail Active Member

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    Hi hello, here are my 2 cents before it's too late:

    Talonflame's SR weakness needs to be outlined in the overview, as Talonflame's most common set requires a lot of switching, and both of Talonflame's STABs have recoil, which when compounded by SR, strips Talonflame of its life rather quickly.

    Sharp Beak really deserves a slash on the first set. It makes for a really nice bluff. You revenge kill something with Brave Bird as the opponent brings in their Skarmory/Bisharp/Aegislash expecting to set up or Pursuit trap you as you dent them extremely hard with Flare Blitz, enough to let something like a Terrakion or Mega Heracross sweep late-game.

    Heatran, Tyranitar, and Rhyperior really need to be mentioned as strict counters in C&C. Heatran gives no shits about anything Talonflame does while it can set up Rocks, Toxic Talonflame, or just outright KO with Ancient Power or Stone Edge. Tyranitar doesn't like U-turn or Will-O-Wisp, but it can Pursuit trap it, set up Rocks, or just boost with DD if it's the Mega form. Lastly, while Rhyperior is incredibly rare, it is one of the best Talonflame counters, as even if it's burned it does a lot to Talonflame with Rock Blast or Stone Edge and doesn't even care about a +6 Talonflame.

    That's all I have for now. This is a very enjoyable analysis, so great job on it. I hope I helped :)
     
  26. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Aside from maybe giving SR a stronger mention in the intro, I have everything else mentioned. Sky Plate is effectively the same as Sharp Beak, and has a comment mention instead of a slash (though I can backslash it if QC wants), and all three of Heatran, Tyranitar and Rhyperior are mentioned in C+C, I'm fairly sure. Rhyp could be given a stronger mention, but he's pretty damn rare lol.
     
  27. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    MetalGross likes this.
  28. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    The overview is filled with too much fluff: just states a brief overview of Talonflame's strengths and weaknesses. It has over been a year and a half since Talonflame's existence, I think we all know what it does at this point. Just simplify the analysis to focusing on Talonflame rather than creating a bunch of fluff about it.

    This analysis also needs to be updated to reflect the current ORAS metagame. Remove mentions of Greninja and Aegislash, they are banned. Make Sky Plate the only slash on the Swords Dance set, and move that set to the first set.

    Just to clarify how this should be re-written, here is an example of how the first three paragraphs would change:

    With Gale Wings giving priority to all Flying-type attacks, Talonflame stands out as one of the premier revenge killers in OU. Priority Brave Bird hits very hard, despite coming off of a meager base 81 Attack stat, and is strong enough to 2HKO most offensive Pokemon that do not resist. This allows Talonflame to pressure opposing offensive teams by pressuring them with very powerful priority.

    However, Talonflame has some critical flaws that must be addressed. Talonflame is really fragile, and gets worn down very quickly from its lack of bulk and the recoil from its STABs. Furthermore, while Talonflame is good at pressuring offensive teams, a number of bulkier Pokemon, such as Rotom-W, Tyranitar, and Slowbro are capable of walling Talonflame and forcing it out. Despite this, do not overlook Talonflame, as it can prove to be a very useful Pokemon.


    Of course, this is just a more simplified version of how I would have written it. I am mostly trying to edit out the fluff and still create a cogent overview; this is a competitive analysis, we are talking about it from a competitive scene and not a casual scene by using really bad jokes and puns.
     
  29. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I understand what you mean, Alf. I just tend to add a bit of personality into these analyses, y'know? It comes off way too cold and clinical if you just state the facts.

    The Aegislash and Greninja mentions were removed from the wiki page; I'll copy that back at some point.
     
  30. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    When a player is looking at the analysis, they are not looking for a warm analysis; they are usually looking for the sets the Pokemon can use that are good, and information on how to use the set and the Pokemon overall. There is no need to be so superfluous; an analysis should get to the point on how the Pokemon is used and what sets it runs that are effective.

    Remove Terrakion in checks and counters, it has a super effective STAB but it does not want to switch in on Talonflame anyways, and almost all of Talonflame's sets have a way of beating it. Rhyperior and Kabutops are not OU, but they fill specific roles that give them usage in OU, albeit not very much usage, though Kabutops will not appreciate switching in on Talonflame multiple times. Remove mentions of Regirock, it is complete garbage in OU, and there is no reason why you would use it except for simply wanting to, and you could use that reason to mention something like Magikarp or Weedle, which we would never even bother writing about unless we were trying to create really bad jokes.
     
  31. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Some interesting comments and little things can make an analysis more interesting and more appealing to the reader. Just make sure it isn't overkill and distracting from the main point of whatever you're saying. Remember, players are people, not machines. Too much of either side and you've lost them.

    edit: ok shanai is a robot
    edit2: I'd also recommend removing some of the asides. Not sure which.
     
  32. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I listed the obscure rock-types, while stating that they were rare in the tier, mostly for perspective's sake, showing just how rare a good Rock-type is in the tier. Rhyperior was even requested as a counter in the analysis lol. I can remove them if you want, but it makes no huge difference really, does it?
     
  33. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    You are missing some checks and counters, most notably Hippowdon and Landorus-T. Both of these Pokemon are very good in the current metagame, so they should most definitely be mentioned:

    Remove Terrakion, it can pressure Talonflame from setting up, but so can Azumarill, and that really does not counter Talonflame at all; plus, Terrakion is neutral to Brave Bird so it really cannot switch into Talonflame easily. Kabutops is also specific to rain teams, and its get worn down way too easily to be able to pressure Talonflame, though if you want to mention it, go ahead.

    Consider adding Mega Diancie, it lacks the bulk to switch into Talonflame repeatedly, but it does resists its STABs and can OHKO it with a STAB Diamond Storm.

    Also, I want Regirock removed because it is complete garbage in OU, and in no way should we ever be encouraging its use. You may see it as not a problem, but do we really want to encourage the use of a Pokemon that is a complete waste of time when there are better Pokemon that exist?
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2015
  34. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Gotcha Alf. I'll get this tweaked on the wiki.
     
  35. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    @Haze Victory posted this set to me in a PM:

    If there's any QC people active, what are your thoughts on this set?
     
  36. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    Talonflame (M) @ Sharp Beak
    Trait: Gale Wings
    EVs: 248 HP / 92 Atk / 108 Def / 60 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Brave Bird
    - Taunt
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Roost

    An Ev spread of 248 HP / 92 Atk / 108 Def / 60 Spd with an adamant nature seems to be a more efficient spread with the same Atk stat but 4 more Def Ev's which I changed after Spoovo's reply.
    It doesn't really need more Atk than that,tbh.As 92 Atk Ev's with an adamant nature and Sharp beak hits harder than non-Sharp beak 252 Atk Ev's adamant nature,and gets those important Ko'es anyway.
    92 Atk Ev's with an adamant nature and a Sharp beak guarantees a Ohko on mega Pinsir with Brave Bird,and 60 speed Ev's help outspeed and burn Jolly natured max speed Excadrill and survive the following Rock slide.
    Calc's on Spoovo's quote.
    Additionally I'd recommend running an Ev spread of 248 HP / 92 Atk / 108 SDef / 60 Spd if your team already has solid backup against physical threats (Teams based around MSlowbro and Defensive Venusaur of the like as from my experience really appreciate this specially defensive spread.Both for the purpose of more solid stalling,and stronger stallbreaking.)

    Reasons to use this set -
    Heatran ain't got recovery and neither does it deal with it's threats nearly as efficiently as Talonflame does.
    A few calcs over the top of my head -
    252+ Atk burned Gyarados Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 108 Def Talonflame: 160-190 (44.5 - 52.9%) -- 26.6% chance to 2HKO

    252+ Atk Life Orb burned Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 108 Def Talonflame: 278-328 (77.4 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    0 Atk burned Hippowdon Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 108 Def Talonflame: 182-216 (50.6 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    0 Atk burned Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 108 Def Talonflame: 136-162 (37.8 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (On the turn of roost)

    252 Atk Technician burned Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 248 HP / 108 Def Talonflame: 226-268 (62.9 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Technician burned Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 248 HP / 108 Def Talonflame: 248-294 (69 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Technician burned Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 248 HP / 108 Def Talonflame: 294-348 (81.8 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    The only physical attackers Talon really fears are the ones that cannot be burned and the brutally strong rock types that carry Stone edge.Tyranitar and offensive Rhyperior of the kind.
    The above are a few Pokemon that also threaten Heatran and lol.Obliterate it 1v1.

    Secondly,Talon is a much better Stallbreaker than Heatran simply put,being capable of breaking entire stall teams lacking Suicune/Slowbro single handedly.

    Thirdly,reliable recovery on a fire type stall mon,which also spreads burns like nobody's business.

    Oh,and thanks to @Spoovo The Pirate again.You really helped out mate ^_^.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2015
  37. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    I'm not exactly seeing the point of Taunt over say the set we already have with Bulk Up. I guess you can beat out chansey without taking status/resids. This really doesn't seem like it deserves a whole set when it's functionally very similar to one we already have. Perhaps slash it with Bulk Up/U-Turn or mention an alternate take on the set in the set comments. The one we currently have might need updating as well; not really sure if that spread + leftovers is the most efficient.
     
  38. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Well, the one I have listed is for optimal special bulk, hitting jump points, odd HP, etc, and the rest in Defence lol. Is there a specific thread you know of for SDef set?
     
  39. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    Taunt clearly helps Talon be a truly epic stallbreaker.I am aware of the bulk up set lol,but that usually works as a bulky late game cleaner if not mistaken and tbh,it doesn't break stall nearly as well as the taunt set does from my experience.
     
  40. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    what is taunt even targeting on stall to begin with? I can't think of any pokemon aside from maybe chansey that might be troubled more so by taunt. Not to mention Bulk Up gives it extra fire power v. Mega Sableye. I can see merits to avoid having to defog/spin early game rocks or prevent opposing setup though.

    edit: was speaking with finch, he also agrees that it doesn't "break stall", bar very specific variants; more like it pressures certain cores. Agreed with slashing it in the Bulk Up slot as well as leaving leftovers as the recommended item.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2015