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[Grammar] Greninja

Discussion in 'OU Analyses' started by Spoovo The Pirate, Feb 20, 2014.

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  1. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    [​IMG]

    I'ma just do what I always go, and chuck out analyses at a stupid pace. :3

    == General ==

    Meet Greninja, yet another X/Y pokemon that's saved from mediocrity by a brilliant ability. It may be the fastest of all Water-types, at a stunning base 122, and its offences are respectable, but it's Greninja's signature ability Protean that separates the frogs from the tadpoles. This ability changes Greninja into the type of the move that it's about to use, meaning that, not only does it get STAB on every move it uses, but it technically doesn't have any weaknesses if used well. Electricity? Grass? Just become a Grass-type! Bug? Fighting? Just become a Ghost-type!

    It also has a brilliant movepool to accommodate its amazing ability, ranging from basic STABs to wide stretching coverage options, and even some great supporting options in entry hazards. Yes, that's right; Protean works with status moves too.

    If one were to search for a flaw with Greninja, it would be its frailty. 72/67/71 defences aren't pathetic, but they won't be surviving much either. It therefore goes without saying that Greninja should be kept safe at all times, as even strong neutral STABs will fell the frog. Its initial typing isn't brilliant either, at least defensively. Dark typing brings unwelcome weaknesses in Bug and Fighting, which are two of the more common attacking types, not to mention newcomer Fairy too. However, when you can change your type at will, this isn't an issue for most.

    All things aside, Greninja is a solid threat in OU, and isn't going anywhere any time soon.

    == Frogstomp ==

    Greninja @ Life Orb / Expert Belt
    Ability: Protean
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Hasty / Naive nature

    -Hydro Pump / Surf
    -Ice Beam
    -Dark Pulse / Hidden Power Grass
    -U-turn / Extrasensory

    Greninja's flexibility really knows no limits. When its typing can be changed almost freely, at the mere click of a button, it makes sense to take the biggest possible advantage; in fact, the only staple choice on this set is a Water move really, as it has amazing neutral coverage on its own.
    *The choice between Surf and Hydro Pump is mostly down to preference. Hydro Pump packs power, but that shaky accuracy may let you down in critical moments, whilst Surf always hits for a reliable base 90 power, meaning it's good in a pinch.

    Ice Beam in slot 2 generally keeps its placing, packing great coverage with a Water move and hitting a lot of common things hard, including the likes of Venusaur (before mega evolving) and Garchomp. Ice-type Greninja will pack a lot of weaknesses however, so be careful when you use it. The other two slots are literally up for grabs, depending on what coverage your team needs. Dark Pulse hits opposing Ghost- and Psychic-types that are lurking, and Hidden Power Grass on the other hand can help Greninja out against opposing bulky Waters like Quagsire, also letting it sponge any wayward Thunderbolts that were aimed at it. While the latter tactic isn't always a good idea, because just about anything can hold a Choice Scarf nowadays, it's always worth considering.

    U-turn in slot 4 is used mostly for scouting, but it can also deal some hefty damage against the right targets (such as Latios), break Focus Sashes, and keep Greninja safe from harm. Extrasensory on the other hand has essentially the same tactic as Hidden Power Grass, however this one's against Fighting-types instead. It doesn't see as much usage due to the poor coverage of Psychic moves, but it's still a worthy choice. Those last two slots can be mixed and matched almost to sheer preference, as nearly any combination will prove useful. Seriously, go nuts!

    The EVs are assigned so Greninja makes the most of its stat spread. The Speed and Special Attack are maxed out, with the remaining 4 being thrown into Attack to give U-turn a slight boost. The choice between Hasty and Naive doesn't matter too much, however it will affect which Download Genesect receives, so that's worth taking into consideration. Note that if you aren't using U-turn, you should use 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd Timid instead, as that doesn't waste any of Greninja's EVs or 'bulk'.

    Lastly, the hold items. The Life Orb's the recommended option, due to it supplying Greninja with some serious power at the cost of 10% HP per hit, which it won't mind losing anyway due to its frailty. However, the Expert Belt is also a very common choice, due to Greninja usually packing enough power anyway, and it can bluff a Choice item on occasion. Greninja doesn't often abuse Choice items, but hey, if it works...

    == Other Options ==

    Among the most prominent of Greninja's alternatives is that it has access to both Spikes and Toxic Spikes. It can always find a few turns to stack some layers, because literally all of its initial weaknesses are 'countered' by simply using one of the two moves. When using Spikes, Greninja becomes a Ground-type, and thus immune to the Electricity it's normally weak to, and on the flip side, if it uses Toxic Spikes it becomes resistant to Grass, Bug, Fairy, and Fighting. Spikes are more recommended than Toxic Spikes, because they are 'harder' to remove, and generally deal more damage if you can force switches well, not to mention helping Greninja to secure some OHKOs and 2HKOs that it otherwise wouldn't, however both hazards have their niches. If you ever have a free slot with Greninja, don't be afraid to give one of these a try.

    It also packs a decent base 95 Attack and a plentiful physical movepool, giving physical sets some viability. Its signature move, Water Shuriken, deserves a solid mention here, as it is a priority, multi-strike move, and this can really disrupt things. Other notable physical moves include Shadow Sneak, Return, Night Slash, Rock Slide, Waterfall, and Acrobatics, however bear in mind that the latter will only be particularly effective once the Flying Gem has been released. Also note that, in spite of the decent Attack stat and even access to Swords Dance, physical Greninja often lacks the power to sweep teams, and thus much be used with caution (and preferably hazard support).

    Other Hidden Power types are worth mentioning, such as Fire to get a solid hit on the likes of Scizor and Greninja, or even Electric to take large chunks out of Gyarados. It was mentioned earlier in the analysis that Greninja doesn't often use choice items, but don't let that stop you. Scarf or Specs Greninja can really surprise opponents by hitting much harder or faster than expected. With STAB on every move, it can be very effective, however the lack of being able to switch moves is a big setback for Greninja. Scald is also worth mentioning, as it isn't much less powerful than Surf, and comes with a nifty burn chance.

    Greninja also gets a few fun supporting options, such as Substitute to evade status, Haze to remove stat changes, and Mat Block to protect itself and become a Fighting-type. Role Play gets its mention for novelty, and it can steal useful abilities from opponents, such as Volt Absorb. However, the cost of using Role Play would be losing Protean, which might not be such a good idea.

    == Checks and Counters ==

    Greninja is far from easy to counter, as its type is continually changing, and thus it is very difficult to actually hit it hard.

    However, since its own power is limited, dedicated walls such as Chansey and Blissey can wear it down pretty quickly. It can't hit either of them hard enough to actually threaten, so the nurses will just force Greninja to eat its own Life Orb recoil every time they switch in, and then likely force it to U-turn out afterwards, meaning Greninja will lose at least 20% of its HP every time. Both have access to Soft Boiled to heal themselves, so Greninja can't hope to wear them down, and they also have access to Seismic Toss to take large chunks out of its HP. Greninja can render itself immune to Seismic Toss with Shadow Sneak, but the nurses are immune, so that would only be a waste of time.

    Just about anything with a Choice Scarf can outrun and hit Greninja hard, providing it is not Scarfed itself, and the holder of the Choice Scarf is faster than a Scizor. The likes of Garchomp and Rotom-W can generally switch in safely (although Garchomp must be wary of Ice Beam) and strike Greninja with their respective STABs for heavy damage. Things that are naturally faster than Greninja are few and far between, however the likes of Talonflame, Jolteon, Mega Alakazam or even Crobat can outrun and hit it hard with a powerful STAB, as long as they switch in safely. This is far from guaranteed in every situation.

    While Greninja can change its typing freely, its initial typing is Water/Dark, and this renders it vulnerable to all three entry hazards, which can be used to weaken it sufficiently. Anything using Mach Punch or Vacuum Wave can hit Greninja hard before it changes its typing, and some good users of these would include Breloom, Conkeldurr, and Lucario.

    No matter what combination of moves Greninja runs, there always seems to be something that slips through its coverage, and can't be hit for super effective damage. If it has some bulk, and can't be hit for super effective, it's generally considered a good initial switch in for Greninja. Some examples of these would be most Fairy-types, Tentacruel, Gyarados, and Empoleon, among others. Greninja's frailty means that even neutral STABs will hurt it, so they don't even need to be powerful to threaten.

    Lastly, if you can paralyse Greninja it's screwed. Klefki and Whimsicott are good choices if you're going with this tactic, as they have Prankster to help them.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2014
  2. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Looks like a good analysis overall, although I'd suggest spacing it out a bit - it makes it easier on the eyes.

    Blaziken says hi!
     
  3. RockyRd

    RockyRd bap

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    hydro pump should be the first slash over surf greninja really likes the extra power considering it doesn't have the highest spa
    hidden power grass should definitely be used over grass knot imo as grass knot does pitiful damage to rotom w which is the most relevant thing you'll want to be hitting with a grass attack
    i'm not sure about u turn having its own moveslot, it doesn't hit particularly hard and you could have an extra coverage move to just ko something instead
    maybe try the slashes like:
    Hydro Pump / Surf
    Ice Beam
    HP Grass / Extrasensory
    Extrasensory / U-Turn / a lot of options
    it's pretty hard to have one solid set as it can run a lot of different moves so it comes down to personal preference or what your team needs

    c and c
    You mention garchomp and rotom w as safe switch ins but neither really wants to as garchomp just dies to ice beam or takes a hefty chunk from hydro pump and rotom w is easily killed by hp grass after switching into almost any of greninja's attacks
    you probably shouldn't mention jolteon it's just not worth using in ou, or crobat as i don't think they run full speed and even if it does it can't ko with bb

    full physical is best left in oo
     
  4. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Yup, seems like a worthwhile change.

    Oh and Doom, it took two generations for Blaziken to get good lol. Greninja was good instantly (though I guess you could argue gen 4 Infernape/Empoleon...)
     
  5. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Hi Spoovo, nice analysis!

    The OO is solid, just one nitpick:
    If we're talking competitively (which is what the sole focus of this analysis should be), there have been quite a few starts that have been 'good'. Just to list the ones that have been 'good' enough to reside in OU with a decent niche: Swampert in generations three and four, Infernape and Empoleon in generation four, Venusaur in generation five, and now: Venusaur, Charizard, and Greninja (of course). So, this sentence should probably be taken out, in my opinion, but as I said - the OO is otherwise good.

    As for the set, I personally like the moves:
    Hydro Pump / Surf (Hydro Pump front slashed as it likes the extra power, similarly to most offensive water types, but both are viable (personal preference, I suppose))
    Ice Beam (Killing Dragons and Grass types, both of which are otherwise problematic to water types - it's a staple on any Greninja set, as is a water STAB, of course).
    Dark Pulse (Here are some calcs that show how Dark Pulse is really helpful
    252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 136-161 (44.7 - 52.9%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 205-244 (78.5 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (that's assuming that it was just sent out and not that Greninja is coming in. If Aegislash is in Blade form, it is OHKOd easily).
    252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 205-244 (63.2 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    It's mainly for Rotom and Aegislash, but those pokemon are two top five threats, so I really stress the importance of Dark Pulse. If you feel there should be a slash for this move, Hidden Power Grass does a number to opposing water types (as does Dark Pulse, but always HP Grass can 2hko Rotom-W while Grass Knot doesn't hit as many common threats in the metagame, making it inferior, in my opinion).
    U-turn / Extrasensory - You give too much credit to U-turn, in my opinion, but it still deserves a front-slash. Extrasensory hits fighters and gives a surprising defensive typing to most pokemon that otherwise kill it.

    Life Orb should be the only item as the power given is greatly needed and E-Belt isn't always going to be in effect, even with great coverage. Mention E-Belt in the comments or OO, in my opinion (LO is used 5x more than Ebelt on the ladder, based on stats).

    OO looks fine (maybe mention SubPetaya :3), as does the C&C - didn't give this a really in depth look, so I might miss a little thing here and there, sorry in advanced if I happened to.
     
  6. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Ehh, it's no worries if you miss something Finch. You're only human after all.

    So I just need to rearrange a few slashes and demote EBelt to OO? Sounds fair. I'll get onto that tomorrow, as it's like 1 AM here lol.
     
  7. Suicune3000

    Suicune3000 Water Lord

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    Greninja put Starmie down to UU? I think Defog put Starmie down to UU, since Greninja can't spin...

    EDIT: He gets Power-up-Punch and a passable physical movepool, so a physical set is probably worth putting in, although it's not as good as the special set.
     
  8. monferno

    monferno blazing

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    Where is Spikes? One of his best options imo, I really only use Hydro Pump / Ice Beam / U-turn anyways, and it's solid because it can easily force something out and set up Spikes on the switch. Also versus Rotom-W or something similar, Spikes on the Volt Switch allows you to get a free layer and an immunity to Volt Switch. Idk if it needs to be a seperate set, but definitely mention / slash it somewhere. Spikes / Hydro Pump / Ice Beam / filler @ Life Orb is solid.
     
  9. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I've given both Spikes and Toxic Spikes a solid mention in the set comments. I would've slashed them in, but that would've cluttered the set yet further, and ideally we want to avoid too much of that.
     
  10. monferno

    monferno blazing

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    That makes sense. Maybe you can make a different set for Spikes (and Toxic Spikes) Greninja and call it Spiker?
     
  11. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Ehh, if QC guys want a set, I'll happily write it in. Set comments should suffice though. :)
     
  12. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    So yeah, what needs doing for this one? Anything else?
     
  13. MewtwoHidden

    MewtwoHidden My Hax Makes Me Famous

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    This analysis is very well done and hard to find any errors in. I have only two.

    *Meet Greninja, the pokemon that knocked Starmie down to UU after five generations at the top.

    Not sure why Greninja knocked Starmie down, since they both play very differently. Starmie being Rapid Spin Support and Greninja being something that generally hits very hard. The only similarity is that they are Special Water types. If anything, Defog is what knocked Starmie down to LU, not UU.

    This might seem odd since this is in OO, but I really disagree with an SD physical set being viable at all. Even if Greninja manages to get set up it is laughably weak.

    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Greninja Water Shuriken (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 288-351 (71.2 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Greninja Water Shuriken (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Genesect: 180-213 (63.6 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    These are on A: A pokemon hit super effectively and B: A frail Pokemon. So I think it can stay in OO, but mention that it is very, very risky and probably not worth using seriously.
     
  14. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    With the Starmie quote, I essentially mean that Greninja outclasses it as a cleanup sweeper, which was Starmie's secondary niche after the obvious Rapid Spinning. Not only is it faster and more powerful, but there is literally nothing that Starmie can do better than it, because Greninja can even run HP Electric if it wants to, and hit just as hard thanks to insta-STAB.

    It does seem to be raising a few eyebrows though, so I can remove it if you guys want?

    Also, I'll add that wee comment about the risk factors.
     
  15. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Remove mention of Vacuum Wave and Lucario from the fighting STAB point in the C&C as regular special Lucario's awful and Mega's now banned.

    MewtwoHidden, Epikhairz (QCs), and anyone else who plays OU commonly: is spikes Greninja worth a set? Tomahawk brings up a valid point, but it appears underwhelming to me, especially when moves like HP Grass actually do damage and let you tank electric attacks (and wall things like Rotom-W).

    Speaking of HP Grass, it /may/ be worth a front-slash on the main set, as it is really amazing in hindsight, but I'll leave that up to the other QCs, too.

    Anyway, once all of the above things are discussed and settled:
    [​IMG]
     
  16. MewtwoHidden

    MewtwoHidden My Hax Makes Me Famous

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    Spikes deserve a set comment or mention elsewhere but not a separate set and I'd say HP Grass and Dark Pulse are equally viable so for me it's fine either way: Approve (2/3)
     
  17. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Delta Stream

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    Yeah Spikes should be a high OO mention imo.
    Also HP Fire deserves a mention somewhere for being able to hit things like Scizor and Ferrothorn

    QC 3/3 (3 is the total amount of approves, right?)
     
  18. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I'm almost certain I have (or at least had) a mention of HP Fire somewhere, but it very well could've gotten removed through editing. I'll put it back in OO.

    Is the Spikes/TSpikes mention OK as a set comment, or should it just go straight to OO? It'd likely be more noticeable at the top of OO, I guess...
     
  19. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    First point in OO, more emphasis on Spikes than T-Spikes, devote an entire bullet to the two. Done. Good job Spoovo!
     
  20. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Sure thing Finch, I'll get that done.
     
  21. Rohail

    Rohail Active Member

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    Sorry for being a bit late here, but I just have one tiny thing:

    I really think that Extrasensory should be the first slash since it hits huge threats like Mega Venusaur, Keldeo, and to a much lesser extent, Tentacruel, who would otherwise wall and beat Greninja. U-turn makes Greninja a solid pivot, but I would honestly use Genesect for that, as it has similar coverage, but has a much higher Attack stat as well as Download to abuse it with.

    Aside from that, excellent job on this :)
     
  22. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Imo, this needs a bit of an update

    The only Greninja set should be:
    Greninja (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Protean
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Hydro Pump
    - Ice Beam
    - Extrasensory
    - Hidden Power [Grass] / Hidden Power [Fire]

    That's the most optimal build in the current metagame. ESensory hits Venu, Keld, etc. while HydroIce are staples on all Greninja and the hidden power of choice depends if you want to hit bulk waters or stuff like ferro

    mention Dark Pulse and Sub in set comments - uturn, spikes, toxic spikes, etc. should be in OO and not main listed (ik there was some thought to main list two of those and uturn currently is main listed)
     
  23. trc

    trc Active Member

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    Yes indeed, this does need an update. I may be a bit abrupt so don't hesitate to ask for reasoning on things you contest:
    • Follow Finchinator's set but with HP Fire in front of HP Grass.
    • Mention when talking about HP Fire that against Ferrothorn you should Ice Beam in the first matchup as Ferrothorn will always Protect to scout the Hidden Power.
    • Slash Dark Pulse behind Extrasensory; Aegislash is still here plus it also smashes bulky Starmie when running HP Fire (allowing you to beat both Ferrothorn and bulky Starmie in one set).
    • In the Set Details below the main moves, mention Grass Knot and U-turn, not Substitute.
    • Please try and make the overview more concise; at the moment it is very fluffy yet should focus more on the competitive aspects of Greninja.
    • When you describe Protean, you talk about it as if it has defensive potential, which it really doesn't.
    • Initial typing isn't a flaw, but a vulnerability to almost all priority due to constantly changing types is.
    • No Expert Belt.
    • No Surf.
    • You might want to work on your descriptions too. You say U-turn helps against the right targets (Latios), but who is switching something slower into a Pokemon with a STAB super-effective move that KOes. U-turn really only helps to get momentum against Chansey when combined with a Pursuit trapper, but it's very very suboptimal overall and you should mention it inflicts LO recoil while doing very small damage.
    • Hidden Power Electric is a niche option that can be mentioned at the very end of set details to smash specially defensive Gyarados / Mantine, two common Greninja answers.
    • Remove Jolteon and Crobat mentions, add Mega Manectric instead, as well as some more examples like Mega Aerodactyl.
    • Turn the typing section into relevant priority for the type Greninja is in at the time.
    • Finally, specially defensive Clefable needs a higher mention in C&C, and a section on counters reliant on the coverage moves (Ferrothorn, Starmie) also needs a mention.
     
  24. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Delta Stream

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    As I mentioned with the venusaur analysis, and this goes with all of spoovos analyses, Spoovo is ded so someone should take over his work

    I could do greninja myself at a later time if no one else will but I have a lot on my plate atm
     
  25. trc

    trc Active Member

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    ill do it
     
  26. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Greninja's banned now :(
    Could whoever moderates this subforum lock for the time being?
     
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