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Swagger Suspect Discussion

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Discussion' started by Hannah, Feb 21, 2014.

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  1. Hannah

    Hannah Come a little closer

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    [​IMG]

    Discuss the possibility of banning Swagger from the XY OU Metagame, if need it be, within Pokemon Online's tiering in general. Please make intelligent posts based on experience and knowledge of the tier. We will infract for poor posts if it does not fit the criteria asked for.

    This will be a unique suspect considering it's the first of this generation so do not hold it to the standard of different suspect discussions.

    Key points to be noted within the discussion:
    • Discuss the effect of the move on the metagame, and cite good points on why or why not it should be kept within the tier.
    • You may cite Pokemon that fully utilize the move, but understand we're focusing on the move itself and not the individual Pokemon
    • Please do not just post battle logs as an argument, we are well aware of its performance in game. Doing so will result in infraction.

    After a given amount of time, if the discussion isn't immediately favorable to either side then a council will be set up from both sides of the argument and a vote will decide on the decision. The council will be chosen depending on the quality of their posts within the thread.
     
  2. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt. Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    OK first I want to add a lil disclaimer that I think the logic that gets Swagger banned is one that also bans confusion-only moves altogether. It seems that's not being discussed in this thread though so I will refrain from talking on that further for the time being.

    ---

    Swagger has been an increasing problem in competitive play over the generations, with the 6th generation being the point at which a large amount of voices take enough issue with it that calling for a suspect became fairly commonplace. This can be largely attributed to the introduction of the Prankster ability allowing Swagger to be more or less guaranteed to force a dice roll in a turn, the move Foul Play hugely benefiting from the opponent's boosted attack, and the gradual introduction of more and more pokemon which can both abuse Swagger effectively and utilise other tools that support that abuse (Substitute, Thunder Wave, Spikes, phazing etc). Currently the most obvious and prevalent Swagger abuser in XY OU is Klefki, though a large amount of other pokemon - Sableye, Liepard, Thundurus, Tornadus, Whimsicott, Volbeat, Illumise, Murkrow, Riolu, Meowstic and Mega Banette all can and have been abusing Swagger to varying degrees of success. That there are many different pokemon which abuse Swagger and all have different attributes and ways to support said abuse, means that there are very limited guaranteed ways to deal with it even in a situation in which a number of dice rolls are won by the opponent.

    Looking purely on a single turn basis, the odds of the dice roll introduced by Swagger being used are slightly in favour of the opponent, though there are many different ways to prepare for the situation in which Swagger does not gain you an immediate advantage, while the opponent has little to no viable ways to prepare for it. That it introduces a dice roll which can determine the outcome of a turn in the first place is one reason I think it needs to be banned.

    Looking at it on a multiple-turn basis, even so little as 2, the odds become vastly in favour of the Swagger user. I think this is the situation in which Swagger becomes actually "broken" rather than just a matter of luck. There are essentially no ways to reasonably play around this - switching out, for example, provides an easy opportunity for the Swagger user to get a Substitute up and continue to do so until you hit yourself in confusion. Swagger in this situation provides an opportunity for many free turns for the Swagger abuser. Consistently winning the many dice rolls that the Swagger abuser puts an opponent through is next to impossible, and if you lose even one of these dice rolls it provides opportunities to make the strategy even stronger - through paralysis, hazards, phazing, hitting it with Foul Play or using the free turns for other opportunities like free switch ins, setting up, baton passing etc as many of the various pokemon that can use Swagger may do. These opportunities are gained purely through luck - and luck which is heavily weighted towards the abuser of Swagger. This is the foremost reason, in my opinion, why Swagger should be banned. That there are extremely minimal amount of pokemon who also beat other OU threats which can be utilised in OU which can be "guaranteed" to beat Swagger (ignoring the fact that Swagger users have 3 other moveslots that will usually in some way beat those pokemon anyway), I think also adds to that, for example all Own Tempo utilising pokemon are below UU cutoff in OU at the moment, including Smeargle. Swagger abuse in the meantime continues to get a fairly stable level of usage in OU and is a consistent problem that won't be solved until it is banned from the OU tier.
     
  3. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I agree with Aurists's post, however I don't think we should stop at banning Swagger from OU. I think we should ban it from every tier, since UU already has 2 prominent users: Whimsicott and Sableye, with Sableye even getting STAB Foul Play.
     
  4. Dibthelegend

    Dibthelegend New Member

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    I can see already that this topic will be controversial, But I would agree with Aurist, in that banning it would be helpful to the metagame. I think it falls into a similar category as the evasion clause or the moody ability ban, in that it's simply a cheap trick that turns the situation into a luck-based situation rather than skill. Although banning such a commonplace move as swagger seems odd, I think it would create a much healthier metagame, and a more fun battleing environment for all.
     
  5. Shadow Sneak

    Shadow Sneak came in like

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    Wow I never even expected this threat to be made, anyways: Swagger is nothing new to the metagame. Since Generation 2, Swagger has been trolling our Pokemon, confusing us, and making us rage quit :( But what really has made Swagger become so popular, is PRANKSTER. Gen 5 brought us many Pranksters which made Swagger's usage to sky rocket. Ever since the release of Gen 6, the main Swaggerer in OU has been Klefki. Yes it is just another Prankster but it is because of its amazing typing that allows it to stay alive so long. There are about 15 Pokemon with Swagger as of Gen 6, but only about 3 are even commonly seen in the tier. All 3 of these Pokemon have the potential to utilize Swagger. With its impressive defensive stats, and an annoying type combination, Klefki is one of the most annoying Swagger users in OU. The other two which aren't common Swagger users, but still with the Prankster ability run it great being Sableye and Whimsicott. Don't forget using Swagger against you is a risk to the opponent if it is a physical attacker. Since it's chance whether you hurt yourself in confusion or not, a +2 Attack stat can make all the difference. Talonflame is the most common counter I see to most Swagger users (the 3 listed above) since it's attack isn't over the top, but it's powerful STABs still hit hard. Also with it's great speed it can outspeed Pranksters with it's own Brave Bird. I've heard a lot of people comparing Swagger to the evasion moves. They say "you can't hit it because you are confused" Well that's not entirely true, again Swagger is chance that you, the player controls, not whoever is using it against you. If you choose to let your Pokemon in after it is at max attack from Swagger, and it dies from the confusion that was your choice! It isn't like evasion where there is no way to stop the missing (then again Roar never misses now so). Swagger is just a move of chance, but in most cases it's you deciding if you get trolled by it. Note that Swagger usually never comes alone. When Klefki uses it, it is almost always with Thunder Wave. When Whimsicott uses it, it is always with Leech Seed, and Sableye commonly comes with Foul Play. When I look at it, its not the confusion that is making us upset, it is the quick loss of HP from things like Leech Seed or Foul Play. Swagger is only used to amplify it's effects (HP lowering).

    It's a risk taken by both he user and your opponent, and therefore I do not think Swagger should be banned from XY OU.
     
  6. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    Well, this has finally been made.

    I doubt I can make an argument as good as Aurist, but I'll try .-.

    Swagger (and confusion moves in general like Confuse Ray, but mostly Swagger) is a move that ruins the fun for everyone. It turns literally EVERY move into a coinflip such that:

    Heads: You attack/snap out of confusion randomly. You kill the Swagger user [most likely] and continue the match.

    Tails: You skip your turn, damage yourself sometimes fatally, and give the Swagger user a crazy advantage by either using Substitute, setting up, or killing you with Foul Play.

    With Pokemon like Klefki, Sableye, Whimsicott, and Liepard on the loose and I'm pretty sure I missed some, Swagger has become more and more abused with its unbalanced mechanics, Prankster (most times) and a boosted Foul Play. There are indeed times where teams of these have gotten high in laddering and even tours, making Swagger as threatening as it needs to be.

    There aren't many viable answers to Swagger. Yes there is Magic Guard in OU, but besides that, nothing viable is immune (Own Tempo sux). Don't throw in continuously switching to remove confusion because that only generates a stalemate, and seeing that Klefki can opt Spikes makes it even less viable.

    "Oh but Nido, Swagger doesn't kill a Pokemon, it just slows it down a bit." IT CAN KILL THEM. I have seen instances where a Pokemon won just by using Swagger and the user did nothing else. Swagger can kill things on its own.

    The real debate for confusion is the luck factor involved. Everyone agrees that Pokemon has a big amount of luck or hax involved when battling and confusion is only part of it. The difference with confusion and a lucky crit is that with confusion, you got receive luck, you control luck. If the opponent skips their turn (which they will 50% of the time), you have complete control over the match whereas a crit for example is a single moment, confusion is continuous and will continue to haunt you.

    Bottom line, Swagger inverts luck directly to your favor and I think it should be banned from XY OU if not have a clause made for it.
     
  7. Lollicon

    Lollicon Member

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    Basically nothing to add to Aurist's post. Pokemon may be a luck based game to an extent , but as itself the skillpart , prediction and teambuilding should be the thing competitive pokemon is about.
    Swagger removes the skill part and the prediction part of the game , destroying the things that competitive play is made of , so I'm for banning it.
     
  8. SilverPT

    SilverPT Member

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    Yes, because banning it from all metagames is not a better option at all.

    And I'm looking forward to see people complaining about Confuse Ray and still demanding a confusion clause.
     
  9. Fixed

    Fixed Active Member

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    Let me first state that I think the move Swagger is not broken, in the sense that a Swagger user has a chance larger than 50% to beat an equally skilled player not using Swagger. Many standard Pokemon in the OU tier have a good matchup against the common Swagger users. For example Rotom-W is immune to paralysis, has a low Attack stat and can use Volt Switch to break a sub and remove confusion at the same time. Also, Mandibuzz does not mind confusion and Foul Play damage much and can remove hazards that are needed for Swagger abuse to work, Roost off any possible damage, and Whirlwind the Swagger user away. Of course I understand that not all teams carry a Pokemon that can comfortably take on Swagger users. Especially offensive teams often have trouble avoiding coinflips against Swagger users. Normally I'd say this is a teambuilding issue, where Swagger abuse can be roughly compared to Baton Pass chains: there are enough viable counters, but they are sometimes hard to fit on certain teams. The fact that even offensive teams have a reasonable chance to defeat Swagger abuse, for example through powerful priority, shows even more that Swagger is not a broken move.

    The big problem however is the way Swagger users often play, actively trying to make the game as luck based as possible. Let's take an example of Swagger Klefki against Heatran. It is clear that this a great matchup for Heatran, who can be seen a counter to Klefki even though there will still be luck involved. As a comparison, I think everyone will agree that Terrakion is a check to Charizard-Y, scaring it out with the threat of Stone Edge. The fact that it will miss 20% of the time is not relevant, because the Charizard user shouldn't be taking this risk unless in a very desperate situation. This is where the analogy ends though. While nearly every Charizard user will switch out of Terrakion, most Klefki users go for the Thunder Wave (or Swagger) against Heatran, risking the OHKO of their Klefki. The difference is that the Charizard user does not want to lose his Charizard because it will be needed later to break the opposing walls, and he will likely lose the game and his precious rating points if he stays in, while the Klefki user can, in the case that Heatran kill Klefki, always timestall, complain about hax, complain about Heatran being a legendary Pokemon, or ragequit, losing only rating points that he does not care about anyway. I believe the main problem with Swagger is the attitude of the players using this move.

    In my opinion, this playstyle of creating randomness and luck should be discouraged as much as possible, within reasonable boundaries. What is so special about the move Swagger is that it can be used to create a luck-based situation under any circumstances. Going back to the example I gave, Charizard-Y can play for luck if Terrakion decides to threaten it out, but it cannot do so when Thundurus-T threatens it out, because Thunderbolt is 100% accurate. Swagger users on the other hand can create a luck based situation against any opposing Pokemon, besides silly things like Own Tempo that are not viable in the current OU metagame. Note also that Swagger is not used in any other playstyle than creating luck (unlike for example Scald which also creates an element of luck, but is used on many legitimate movesets), and can be banned without negative consequences for legitimate players. Therefore, I propose to ban the move Swagger.


    I'm not sure if I should be posting this is this thread, but I think that Swagger should also be banned in the Ubers, UU and LC metagames, for the same reasons as given above. I cannot say much about UU and LC because I have next to no experience in these tiers, but in Ubers the move Swagger is at least as effective at creating luck-based situations as in OU, and there are probably even fewer solid counters to Swagger users, due to high Attack stats and awkward typings everywhere.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2014
  10. VuvuzelaΒzz

    VuvuzelaΒzz •Sage

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    If a Pokémon / move / ability etc. is banned in a certain tier, it is banned in every tier bellow it as well, so this wouldn't be an issue.
     
  11. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    I'm wondering why banning Swagger just in XY OU and not in every other metagame and tier, why banning just Swagger and not every other confusion status move

    there are two main lines of thinking about confusion:
    1- This is a mechanic of the game we should accept it and play with it
    2- We want to play a competitive game and confusion is a 50/50 status that can ruin games

    Besides any other argue in what we should define as "competitive" ad what not (Serene Grace is an example, ShellPass, FullBPass), I honestly think that Swagger is not /that/ broken, it's just a fuckin lucky move, so annoying, TOO ANNOYING. With Prankster is totally cancer (but I still find funny how players choke in ladder using 6 prankswag mons -- that helps the "no ban" vision).

    However, I can accept a ban of this; if the aim of this ban is not "keep out something OP" it's ok, because Swagger is not OP. It's just luck, pure luck. That's a similar case of Moody and Evasion in general, even if Evasion is obviously more broken because it's not only a 50% (when it reached +3).

    I would remember that Swagger gives a +2 Atk bonus, so what can be a unlucky situation (with selfhit), can be also a more lucky situation (hit with +2 atk boost)

    If I have to decide about this, I should ban just Prankster+Swagger, but I will accept any other decision cuz, tbh, idgaf much really about this lolmove and lolstrategy (but when a gargabe opponent wins with this, yeah, this makes me angry, like everyone I guess)
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2014
  12. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    I'm also in favour of banning Swagger, holding the same arguements as Aurist. Banning the move will result in a much more enjoyable metagame, which is after all the main purpose of a played game.

    I'm not in favour of a confusion clause though. The attack boost that can be abused with Foul Play is one of the main reasons that Swagger is so broken and annoying. Sure, Confuse Ray may prevent you from attack for a couple of turns, but it doesn't increase the damage dealt to you.
     
  13. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    Aurist pretty much voiced the general argument of the detrimental to the metagame discussion and for the sake of not just being really repetitive im not going restate what he has posted and i have already posted in the previous discussion. But to sum it up: Swagger is a simple dice roll/coinflip strategy that has no viable way to be played around other then getting luckier then the other person. It adds nothing to the game other then forced randomness and therefore should leave the competitive environment.
     
  14. ZodiaK

    ZodiaK Get the fuck off my porch

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    It's a viable strategy if you build a team around it and build it well although you can still be shut down like all strategies. Pokemon like rotom-w, mandibuzz, most stall orientated mons can outright fuck with the strategy. Offensive answers would be lum sweepers, things that bypass substitutes such as bug buzz, infiltrator, phazing, pixelate, etc. Ground and electric types naturally have an advantage to avoiding thunderwaves so as to not allow for para-fusion.
     
  15. Johnno268

    Johnno268 New Member

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    I will begin with the move itself is not broken.

    However it does ruin the flow of battles and can cause good players to lose to mediocre players by pure dumb luck. I also think that the people who use it are not trying to do well or win but frustrate other players on purpose. This allows trolls a way to ruin the game for other people. Overall i think that the move itself should not be banned but the use of it in conjunction with moves like foul play, thunder wave and substitute should. However this thread is about swagger only and seeing as it doesn't seem to add anything to the game i believe it should be banned.

    Regular confusion is annoying but nothing that cannot be dealt with so should stay.
     
  16. MUMU

    MUMU Just a random Haxer nOOb

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    I agree,and in worst case it can be played around by constantly switching between 2 bulky pivots anyway,not to mention swagger user has less than 50% odds to actually get the good end from it,taunt can somewhat shut it down too,depending on the user.Also Derp Pixilate doesn't bypass substitute,you are thinking about hyper voice that pass substitute due to being a sound move.
     
  17. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    This is a reason in support of ban that I can at least partially get behind. Swagger creates a scenario in which one of two very different outcomes can occur, and the only thing keeping them apart is a roll of the dice. Assuming the Swagger user forces a switch and is faster than the Pokémon that switches in (through Prankster, usually), it creates a 45/55 cut in odds: 45% that the opposing Pokémon damages itself, 55% that it successfully breaks the substitute. However, even if this is successful, the Prankster Pokémon can use Substitute again, and again, until Confusion finally wears off. I'd like to know the specific odds of confusion wearing off (I know that it's something like 1-4 turns, but I don't recall the spread) - but in any case, the (Prankster) Swagger user will be able to tilt the odds in its to favor at a decreasingly effective rate by sacrificing 19% of its HP. Once confusion wears off and if the Swagger mon doesn't have a substitute, it will be forced out or forced to take another 45/55 chance at the risk of its survival.

    "That it introduces a dice roll which can determine the outcome of a turn in the first place is one reason I think it needs to be banned."

    I too believe it would be beneficial for competitive play for Swagger to be taken out of the game. But before I agree that it's the right thing to do, you would have to convince me that in its luck-based turn outcome decision is exceptionally broken. Much of this game relies on using Scald over Surf because it has the 30% chance to Burn. Low accuracy moves, secondary effects, and even some forms of paralysis support all play into the ability of a user to try the dice in their favour. Is Swagger so different that it requires a ban? That's the argument that should be battled out.


    I don't think it's fair to judge how broken something is based on how many things are not guaranteed to beat it - elsewise you could theoretically discount any Stone Edge user from the pool of Volcarona checks, which isn't right. I think a fair judge of how safely something can handle a Prankster mon should be made. Lets look at Rotom-W, for instance, in a duel with Kelfki, the premier Swagger abuser this gen.

    - Immune to Thunder Wave, which is often run alongside Swagger for additional immobility chance.
    - Immune to Spikes, which is often run alongside to punish switching.
    [secret]
    - +2 0- Atk Rotom-W Quick Attack vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Rotom-W: 23-28 (7.5 - 9.2%)
    - +2 4 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Rotom-W: 54-64 (17.7 - 21%)
    [/secret]

    Due to its convenient immunities, Rotom-W is not troubled very much by Klefki's movepool. This set and EV spread is a basic Talonflame / Mega Pinsir counter (check?) with some room for Special Attack and Speed investment. Attack IVs are 0. At +2, Rotom-W will take as much as 100 turns to kill itself from its confusion assuming it has Lefties. Foul Play will do at best another 21%. Even if Rotom-W switches into Stealth Rock as Klefki Subs, then is hit by Swagger (90%) and then hurts itself in its confusion (50%), and is then attacked with Foul Play, does not break out of its confusion (???%) and hits itself in confusion again (50%), must take another Foul Play before breaking the sub with either Hydro Pump or Volt Switch, it will still be at 62% HP. The odds of this are less than 20%. Even in this worse case scenario, Rotom-W has a solid chance (80%) to break Klefki's sub with Hydro Pump, or it can Volt Switch out to something else that can threaten Klefki. I believe this is indicative of the fact that Rotom-W is in fact a counter.




    Poison Heal Gliscor is also a viable counter.
    - Immunity to Thunder Wave
    - Immunity to Spikes
    - Able to Taunt Klefki
    - Or smash it with Earthquake
    [secret]
    0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 158-188 (49.6 - 59.1%)
    +2 0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 314-372 (98.7 - 116.9%)
    [/secret]

    - Is a physical attacker, but can still afford to take some Confuse hits and Foul Plays:
    [secret]
    - +2 0 Atk Gliscor Quick Attack vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 36-43 (10.1 - 12.1%)
    - While Poison Heal recovers 12.5% per turn, and confusion happens less than half the time.
    - +2 4 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 85-100 (24 - 28.2%)
    [/secret]




    Sylveon is yet another counter.
    - Low base attack and resistance to Foul Play means:
    [secret]
    +2 4 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 33-39 (8.3 - 9.8%)
    [/secret]
    - Pixelate STAB Hyper Voice goes right through Klefki's substitutes.
    - 4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Klefki: 77-91 (24.2 - 28.6%)
    - Sylveon often runs Heal Bell, which can alleviate Paralysis.
    - Even Specially Defensive Sylveon shouldn't have trouble with this.
    [secret]
    +4 4 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sylveon: 74-87 (18.7 - 22%)

    Yes, this is at +4.
    [/secret]


    These three Pokémon prove that Swagger is counterable - even when run on the most terrifying SubSwaggerPlay sets on its arguably most effective abuser Klefki. I would run calculations for other Pokémon that use Swagger, but I have a midterm to study for. Most importantly, this proves that conventional mons - not just obscure Own Tempo users - are perfectly capable of defeating Klefki and other prominent Swagger users. I thus do not believe Swagger's dependence on luck is so exceptional that it requires banishment.
     
  18. Deleted

    Deleted New Member

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    The move itself I think is NOT broken. It has 90 accuracy which means it is fairly unreliable together with its coin flip (50%) chance to work each turn. For example, you only have a 45% chance to stop a rampaging sweeper with prankster swagger as opposed to 85% with Will-O-Wisp. Furthermore, strategies with substitute and foul play are now easier to beat since there is far less hazard stacking due to defog, meaning that you can switch around quite freely a lot of the time. Electric types are now also immune to twave along with ground, so ParaFusion strategies are also harder to pull off. Certain electric types like Thundurus and bulky ground types like Gliscor are therefore usually good answers to the most common abuser, Klefki. Magic Bounce is rare but it still exists. Generally, the more offensive the team the more it will struggle against Swagger abuse. And let's not forget that you can easily give your opponent a sweep with that +2Atk if you are not careful/lucky.

    I do however question the strategy behind this move as most people I have seen using Swagger only hope for some ridiculous luck, sending in their abuser on things that it really shouldn't be able to beat otherwise. The move itself doesn't introduce any valuable strategic element to the game but instead focuses purely on bringing even more luck based situations that could be avoided if this move wasnt there. I don't think the move is very good but due to the way it is used in and the fact that it will sometimes undeservedly turn games around, I wouldn't oppose banning it. Finally, Swagger isn't much different (it seems better there actually) in Ubers, so this suspect should be for both tiers in my opinion.
     
  19. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt. Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    @ WU while it is true that some pokemon do take minimal damage from Swagger, that wasn't really something I mentioned in my post, because my most significant point was that through luck it has the ability to gain many free turns against any team with which one has a ton of different ways to take advantage of those free turns. Every turn in XY matters hugely, more so even than any past gen I would suggest, and a loss of a turn is a big deal. One may lose turns to other moves such as flinch or paralysis but in addition the fact that those moves main or only functions are not to cause luck, as well as the many different other ways to play around those functions, one does not gain additional free turns through the use of them - and one most use up every turn using them in order to continue preventing the opponent from utilising those turns. There are pokemon that can reasonably stay in on swagger and survive a large number of turns on it but the free turns acquired by abusing swagger are still abusable in front of them too. The ability to be able to wipe out strong physical attackers through pure luck is just another addition to the repertoire of why swagger is broken.

    About this:

    I don't think so either but I think it's a strong point that 0 legit pokemon have a reasonable way of truly playing around it. Even various banned pokemon had a couple of things in the metagame that were both legit and to some extent could be used to play around them.
     
  20. .Rawr!

    .Rawr! c(°3°)כ

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    Not writing so much, becos im on phone, will expand later comment:

    I agree wholeheartly with this, only adding it could be banned even from Side Metagames too, i could even dare to say ban from ubers too (like it's 1 of the tiers where swagger is more succesful), but maybe that could be pushing things a bit too far, idk.

    Just pointing out which Rotom-W is an universal counter to klefki, thats right, but no to the move Swagger. For example if the swagger user is Whimsicott, then Rotom-W could lose badly. Yes, probably there are counters to swagger Whimsicott too, but see whats there? the problem aren't the pokemons, the problem is Swagger, u can't just prepare for every Swagger user.
     
  21. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    I think you are misunderstanding the sentiment of the statement you quote here. Its not so much as that any sort of chance/dice roll is bad. it is more meant to mean you are forced unavoidably to take huge risks of giving your opponent free turns. This logic does not track for scald/focus miss/wilo/stone edge because many pokes are imune or resist those moves while in practicality confusion from swagger can give free turns against any mon. You list some solid answers to kelfki but nobody is saying kelfki is uncountable, but rather swagger.

    And to also address some weaknesses to the checks listed:

    Rotom vs. Key
    Rotom is forced to go for voltswitch almost every time. First turn is 55/45 that rotom will either voltswitch out (key loses 28-33%) or hits itself (rotom loses 12%). While the dmg output is in rotoms favor if stealth rocks are in play the amount if switches you are forcing is sort of way more dmging then the small 24% after lefties. Just by coming in rotom has lost 12% that it will not gain back fully with lefties if it immediately goes for a switch. Not to mention the incoming rocks/spikes dmg on any incoming mons. Although rotom is doing more dmg per turn to key in practice it is a mediocre answer because it is not able to stay in.

    Sylveon vs. Key
    you fail to mention that if sylveon switches in on a swagger and then key goes for one on the subsequent turn (which is the best play)
    +4 0- Atk Sylveon Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 78-92 (19.7 - 23.3%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
    Sylveon will be doing low 20s to itself 45% of the time on the first turn. Key will almost always win this matchup because at +6 hitting itself will do about 30% and keys foulplay will do significantly more then hyper voice. Seeing as hyper voice is not even a garenteed 5hko with lefties kelfi will come out on top though the sheer brokeness of swgger alone

    Giscor wins most of the time against klefki simply because of type advantage. This is not a klefki discussion but a swagger one so although this is an answer the point still stands.

    Regardless of how many mons can match up well against klefki, i don't think that really detracts much from the uncompeditiveness of swagger. it creates a situation where regardless of teambuilding you are simply forced to hope you hit though it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2014
  22. DSM01

    DSM01 Jammin' out

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    I think Swagger should be banned because it is uncompetitive due to intentionally causing entirely luck-based scenarios. As Aurist has explained, as the turns progress the odds quickly turn in favor of the Swagger abuser and with hazards on the field it is difficult, if not impossible, to get around this strategy without facing it head on (and risking Swagger hax). Swagger also allows certain Pokemon to severely damage or outright beat other Pokemon that would normally be counters, such as Swagger + Foul Play Klefki or Sableye killing a Heatran.

    Replies in bold.
    I think this needs to be clarified. Is the Swagger ban only for OU or for all standard tiers OU and below? I agree with other users that say that Swagger should be universally banned across all tiers (Swagger Clause) because it has the same uncompetitiveness/luck factor regardless of what tier it's used in.
    ---

    If there are hazards on your side of the field you usually won't have the luxury of infinitely switching around against the Swagger abuser. If they're behind a Substitute, you have no choice but to stay and and attack if you want to kill them. The longer the Swagger shenanigans go on, the more the odds are against you and the risk is on you to stay in and attack, not on the opponent.
    ---

    ---

    Whimsicott counters Rotom-W and Gliscor as long as it doesn't switch in on a status move. Even if Swagger abusers did have multiple OU-viable counters, it would still be broken because of its inherent uncompetitiveness/luck factor. I think Swagger is comparable to Moody in that it is entirely based on luck and, as has been brought up in almost every suspect discussion, just because something has counters doesn't mean it isn't broken. Moody is hard countered by Roar and Whirlwind (now with infinite accuracy), Perish Song, Haze, and Unaware. Even though phazing is extremely viable in OU (and beyond), Moody is universally banned because it intentionally creates a luck-based scenario that is hard for the opponent to avoid once it has begun—just like Swagger abuse.
     
  23. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    Whereabouts, unfortunately by stating the good checks/counters to Swagger Klefki, you forgot something.

    This is a subject about Swagger, not Swagger's best user, meaning the topic is more vague than a specific target. If you want to make counters for Swagger, you can't only factor the most used user of it, but also EVERY SINGLE VIABLE USER OF IT.

    You say Rotom-W beats Klefki one-on-one and that's true, but what about Whimsicott? What about Liepard? What about Sableye? What about Mega Absol? What about Thundurus-I?

    There is no singular Pokemon that can reliably beat all of them at once, which changes this whole suspect discussion from a standard ban-a-Pokemon discussion since possibilities VARY.

    If you want my answer, read what I stated before.

    You aren't adding any more luck to the fight more than you are controlling it by adding a coinflip element. Imagine all of your moves having a 50% chance to fail and the side effect ends at complete random.



    Oh and there's also the Ditto Instant Kill.

    All you do is spam Swagger on a physical sweeper like say Terrakion, sack, and send out Choice Scarf Ditto, copy the +lots, and sweep the team with no effort.

    Give me five Pokemon beyond typical priority (because that's the cheap way out of this argument) that can block this trick if the standards are met.
     
  24. Scatterbrain

    Scatterbrain You only live once*

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    Everyone is talking about Prankster users in particular. Why not just ban the ability and the move combination? Or run Whimsicott / Thundurus / Tornadus? They're all OU and carry Prankster and Taunt. Talonflame /is/ somewhatt of a good counter to Prankster Swagfags but Whimsicott outspeeds it 11/10 of Talonflames (considering Adamant 252 atk / 252 spe is the most common spread so bb and fb hit super hard) the majority of OU and UU are physical, with some exceptions in between. Swagger would nerf Prankster so hard.

    Make a clause that disallows Prankster and Swagger, set it to default, and you have yourself a good deal. Without Prankster, priority and fast special attackers like Charizard would easily rip things like Meowstic and Sableye apart.
     
  25. [EF]Fennekin

    [EF]Fennekin On Showdown now under the name VictoriasDelibirds

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    I will echo that the main issue with Swagger is the fact that no matter how well one prepares for it/plays around it, coupled with Prankster, it can be deadly for even the most skilled of battlers. What others have not addressed, however, is that the people who use Swagger darn well know that they're relying on hax to win, and don't give it a second thought.

    While the luck element of Pokémon is what helps to make the game fun, there comes a point where luck morphs into something infuriating; that point is smack-dab in the middle of Swagger. However fervently users of the move will try to justify its inclusion in metagames from Ubers down to NEU, the fact of the matter is that strategies such as SwagPlay take the fun out of the game. Having been on the receiving end of many a Klefki, Liepard, Murkrow, etc. it's positively excruciating to watch your best competitive efforts, predictions, and team structures crumble to the might of Lady Luck. Luck exists in Pokémon; that has been true since generation 1. However, competitive Pokémon is supposed to be a skill-based game; not a gambling game. If you're looking for the latter type of entertainment, head over to Las Vegas.

    I play a fair amount of OU, but as a player who mains Ubers, I would like to propose a universal ban of Swagger. I realize that it's not my place to demand a complete ban; this is an OU thread, after all, but I at least wanted to put the idea out there. Klefki runs rampant in whatever tier it finds itself in, being able to not only spam Swagger+T-Wave, but dual screens as well. The rest of the SwagPlay, SwagWave, and SwagSub Pokémon are utter nuisances wherever they go, and I'd be willing to bet that there's more than one troll in every tier whose team is chock-full of these Pokémon, just waiting to snipe the next woefully unlucky opponent. In conclusion, I would recommend that Swagger be banned from OU.
     
  26. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    Responding to other posts. I'll edit as I go.


    Yes, Klefki has solid counters, as do Sableye, Whimiscott, and all the others. What I don't understand is how a plethora of things which are not individually broken with a particular move can manage to break said move.

    Alright, I understand your point that Swagger is unique in the absence of viable immunities in OU. However, I disagree with the argument that Swagger provides more forced 'huge risks' than other status. A free turn is not guaranteed in any way, and it's not even terribly likely it will occur at a serendipitous time. Against one of the Prankster/Swagger mons, a free turn is pretty useless if they can't do significant damage with Foul Play. The worst thing I can imagine is Klefki setting up Spikes - which can be spun, Defog'd, and played around like Spikes from any other mon. Assuming a free turn is guaranteed, there's not much one of the Prankster users can do with it. To truly profit off of one, you'd have to switch to a set-up sweeper or something of the like; and even then, your odds of getting the desired support are less than 50% - confusion can even wear off after one turn, so the opposing Pokémon could already be healed of its status at that point. Swagger offers an opportunity in creating the possibility of free turns; however, it fails to exploit it in a gamebreaking way.

    As with all status, Confusion has its advantages. As previously observed, it can create 'free turns' and take some health. It is not permanent, since it wears off within 4 turns, but it can take a turn or two on average in that period. Switching negates this, and unless you're counting that as inaction, it's not a completely free turn. I would much rather set up against e.g. a burned Scizor than a confused Scizor, or a paralyzed Latios than a confused Latios. Status can be used to gain the upper hand in many different ways, and really, confusion does it fairly unreliably. Confusion is even cured by simply switching out; paralysis is much more inhibiting because it renders a Pokémon potentially setup fodder for the rest of the game.

    I'm not saying I don't recognize the advantages of Swagger - 0 immunities outside of obscure Own Tempo and Magic Bounce. But it doesn't break the game by creating an opportunity for a 'free turn'.


    Ever heard of Hydro Pump?
    132 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Klefki: 157-186 (49.3 - 58.4%)

    Volt Switch should only be used if something can be sent in to force Klefki out (Heatran, Garchomp, etc). Hydro Pump will get the job done. Rotom-W is a counter.


    Hold on.

    +4 0- Atk Sylveon Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 63-75 (15.9 - 19%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Pixelate doesn't work like that last I checked.

    Sylveon should always win. It can Wish/Protect all day and whittle away with Hyper Voice. It can set up Calm Mind, if it's into that. Sylveon, too, is a counter.



    Fair enough, I agree that's a bit of a drag. You do realize, however, that you also have to plan around your Water resists risking Scald burns, your Thundurus-I checks taking Thunder Wave paras, and so on. That's the nature of the game. There's not enough reasonable evidence to conclude that Swagger is exceptionally broken.




    You'd probably end up in a bad situation if you tried to respond to every Earthquake user the same way. The fact that Rotom-W counters Klefki, if not Whimiscott, remains relevant. Gliscor counters Excadrill, who uses Earthquake, but is this brought down by the fact that it loses to Swampert, who also uses Earthquake? Of course not. Rotom-W is a hard counter to one of the most important pieces of this discussion. Swagger on each of its users has its counters, and all of them should be looked at.


    Based on my above observation on status, can you explain to me how you think these free turns are broken? I do actually want to know. In my experience, I haven't (or if I have, rarely) been severely disadvantaged by getting set up on while my Pokémon hits itself in its confusion.

    Hm? Counters don't count as a way of playing around them? There are some things Swagger abusers simply won't beat within any realm of practical expectations.

    Reiterating my thesis: a bunch of things which are not broken by a move X do not classify move X as broken.

    Think of it as a Venn Diagram. For a move to be broken, at least one of its users must be; but a user of move being broken doesn't make the move broken either. Since there are no broken users of Swagger, I fail to see how Swagger itself is broken.


    Almost all Grass types. Mega Venusaur. Heatran, Noivern, the entire move of Taunt. Talonflame and Mega Pinsir outspeed with super-effective priority.

    Almost all Fighting and Fairy types. Basically all of Klefki's and Whimi's counters work too.

    Fairies.

    wat

    Not going to argue this isn't broken, because that's for a different thread. But why would you run Swagger on this when it has those amazing offensive stats?


    Your meaning is unclear; do you mean the Swagger user gains control from it? The Swagger user is in as much control as he/she is when using Scald for status. There isn't a connection.


    Another Ditto lol.

    Not going to argue about this one, but this trap doesn't take much foresight to avoid. Terrakion isn't getting past Aegislash with +4 Stone Edge/Close Combat anyhow.

    Ditto+Swagger combo can be silly I guess, though I haven't seen it pulled off too well. I don't think it's broken, and if it is, it's probably not Swagger to blame but Imposter. I'll think it over and get back to you later.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2014
  27. Rake

    Rake Banned

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    Just because you lose to something once and it felt unfair it doesn't mean you should ban it. Swagger is actually WORSE this gen thanks to Defog. You get Swaggered? You switch. PP stall the stupid keychain. As long as you keep hazards down it won't be able to do anything. Let's see Swagger beat pretty much any wall. Impossible. Mandibuzz laughs at Swaggerplayers all day. Swagger is luck based, yes, but thanks to it's bad accuracy and when it does hit and the fact it's only 50/50 (worse than iron head flinching) means your odds are not great. You run the gambit of giving a free +2 atk to a physical attacker and getting swept yourself. It's a move beaten by almost all walls, all magic bouncers, anything with own tempo, Lum+sub, The ability regenerator+switching, Bulky water types with Scald, Sub before the prankster comes in, nearly all Fairies, physical attackers with Lum (Thanks for the free +2 atk as I KO you, chump), faster pranksters, Priority moves from faster Pokemon. Banning Swagger (a move that's been around since Gen 2) sets a very dangerous precedent.

    NO BAN (smh)
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2014
  28. Knots the Notorious

    Knots the Notorious aka Gary Oak from HC

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    Swagger has had the same effect since Generation 2 and we've had people complaining about the "luck"/"hax" element in Pokemon for as long as there have been competitive circles. Swagger is self-balanced: you may be helping your opponent by using it, since it's up to a coin toss whether or not they will hit past their confusion turn to turn, and if they do, they hit you with +2 attack. This risk in lending power to your opponent can be mitigated by targeting non-physical pokemon, but these pokemon will take longer to hit themselves to a KO, making the tactic less useful. Lets not also forget that swagger is only 90% accurate, giving it a fair chance to totally screw up the frail pokemon that put it to best use.

    I don't see anything wrong with swagger, and I don't see how swagger alone could be targeted and not the confusion status itself if you're going to make the case to ban it. Swagger is not an inherently better move than confuse ray, it comes with it's own risks and it is less accurate. Confusion as a status isn't broken because effected trainers can always switch out of it, meaning we wouldn't ever have to even introduce a confusion clause to begin with: the game came with one!

    I think a powerful case could be made to ban prankster+swagger/confuse ray+substitute, though I do not personally think this moveset is worth banning. I think an even more powerful case could be made to ban Klefki specifically because of its access to this "triforce of hax" with the added benefit of incredible typing, but again I do not personally think Klefki is banworthy.

    It has been my experience climbing PO's ladders to 1600+ in the last 3 generations that "hax based" teams do not pass a certain threshold. Skilled players know how to play around statuses like confusion and tactics like serene flinch, and even if they lose one or two matches to things like that, they still push themselves to the top of the ladder because across many battles, a well constructed team always outperforms a "hax" team.

    Are we really going to ban something that hasn't seen a buff or debuff since almost the very beginning of the game? Maybe Hannah is onto something, maybe we should seriously discuss Klefki, but in terms of Swagger specifically...

    No ban.
     
  29. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    I suggest to not ban Swagger but to ban who use PranksterSwagger on XY OU ladder

    y/y
     
  30. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    @ WU

    You forgot one can Swagger the same opponent multiple times, usually without disadvantages for themselves. Yes, you increase the opponent's attack, but it most likely has to break a priority substitute anyway before it can deal damage. Of course you could switch out, but this is easily abused with hazards, only dealing more damage in the process (and possibly getting a safe Sub or a free Swagger).

    Calcs:
    +4 0- Atk Rotom-W Quick Attack vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Rotom-W: 42-50 (13.8 - 16.4%)
    +4 4 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Rotom-W: 99-117 (32.5 - 38.4%) -- 2.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Which means Rotom-W will get a minimum of 46% damage if it hits itself in confusion, while having no chance of hitting Klefki in the process (Volt Switch doesn't even break the sub). If you then take into account that Hydro Pump only has 80% accuracy, it has a chance of 40% of breaking Klefki's sub. Not even talking about Brightpowder Sableye here..

    Calcs for Gliscor:
    +4 0 Atk Gliscor Quick Attack vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 54-64 (15.2 - 18%)
    +4 4 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 127-150 (35.8 - 42.3%) -- 1.3% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal

    Which is again a substantial amount of damage. Also, not a lot of Gliscors (only 1.17%) run Taunt.

    # 11 - 1.17 % (747 battles)

    Gliscor @ Toxic Orb Lv. 100 -- Poison Heal
    Nature: Impish - EVs: 244 HP / 252 Def / 12 Spd (19.0 %)
    Earthquake
    Toxic
    Protect
    Taunt
     
  31. Hannah

    Hannah Come a little closer

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    I'd reply to WU's post but that's just too long for me to take. Heh.

    Anyways, I'll just try to condense the points I've brought up during conversations within Indigo and other people while replying to the more recent posts.


    Double team and OHKO moves have been around 1st gen. In fact, throughout the gens there have always been cry for the uncompetitive nature of the move. Until now, where proirity Swagger was introduced it didn't really stand out as a threat. It being around for a while is no issue, we're dicussing the current metagame and how it's being affected by the move. I don't see why we have to dwell in the past for issues now.

    Except, you have to take the risk of the 50% and possibly going lethal on hit. A regular swagger user can setup on most Pokemon because their main focus is to inflict status and put your opponent in situations where they have to trade off as many Pokemon or force at switches at the cost of a coin flip. You are not limited by what you can and cannot KO, you use that move because it puts your opponent in a state that prevents it from doing it's role at the cost of taking minimal to no damage (if it's a special attacker or a wall) or even KOing on the spot.

    The difference is, the +2 attack boost is enough to set it aside over confusion. Regular mons that have a workable attack stat even when univested with a hindering nature can be exploited through RNG to the point of it going to lethal. Unlike Confuse Ray, it has the capacity to go on the offensive while providing the same window of opportunity to attack or even capitalize on the switch.

    The game didn't come with a confusion clause, but it didn't come up with an ubers tier as well. Evasion clause, OHKO moves, Moody, etc. All of them were community decisions because those factors were considered too unfair and not within the spirit of competitive battling.


    I personally don't think that Klefki is banworthy as well. The thing is why Klefki is consistently brought up is because it's the primary and most frequent user of the move. Last generation it was a mix between Liepard or Sableye, maybe even Whimsicott.

    I'm a consistent ladder player as well and have peaked at #1 a couple of times, and while I do agree that there are ways to outplay Swaggerplay, it's a playstyle that takes little to no skill that can consistently hold it's own against any other playstyle through factors of luck.

    I'm not onto anything, this suspect was the result of a lot of people complaining within the OU suspect threads as well as multiple threads popping up about it. This has been ongoing since the last generation.



    Anyways, people seem to be taking the suspect in a very weird manner. To address WU's calcs and stuff, you're over simplying what turn incentive can do and what things you can run to not take full casualties from the move. Your arguement is that there are Pokemon that can take a selfconfusion hit and a foul play, I think for every suspect discussion we've had it was well implied that there will always be things that will act as a check. You're not looing at how it affects the meta game. How it affects the playerbase and teambuilding in general.

    I heavily feel that Swagger is completely unhealthy for a competitive battling simulator and that a metagame without it is a better one.
     
  32. Knots the Notorious

    Knots the Notorious aka Gary Oak from HC

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    You just described every single turn in a match of Pokemon. Following this reasoning, we should ban all damage dealing moves because they all have a chance to critical. The odds of getting a critical hit are not even very remote.

    I'm not trying to be inflammatory, here, I'm just pointing out that "because it turns the game into a dice roll" is not really an argument. Dice rolls are in Pokemon's DNA.
     
  33. Samphire

    Samphire Too much hard work! Forum Moderator Tour Director Forum Moderator Tour Director

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    To me, the problem is more that people have an issue with the move combination in general. As it has been said, Swagger has been around for a long time, and so if it was an issue it would have been banned long ago.

    If you look at any of the mons brought up that use it, they all centre around the prankster, foul play and swagger combination. Therefore, it does not seem right to ban for the sake of a handful of mons, especially ones, as Oak says, see hardly any usage outside of Klefki and Sableye with this combination so far in Gen 6.

    I would also like to point out that at the moment, tiers are being formed. And, at the moment, the problem only exists in OU, where where just Klefki and Mandibuzz exist, and even then Mandibuzz does not use this tactic often in favour of a knock off set. I would therefore strongly suggest that we wait until LU at the very least is formed. If the prankster users that abuse it drop there as it seems it may do and cause a problem, then okay, we can discuss this. If not, then perhaps it shows that it is an issue that we need to look at more in the specifics of the problem, despite the hatred of complex bans.

    So no ban. If need be, a complex ban needs to be sorted out, but again, I think we need a waiting game. Or, as it mainly centres around Klefki, have a test ban of Klefki and see how much OU is affected by swagger then. At least then you are trying to troubleshoot the problem rather than ban outright and try to blanket a situation that does not need blanketing.
     
  34. Hannah

    Hannah Come a little closer

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    Except Swagger is a factor completely reliant on it. Much like OHKO moves, much like Evasion moves. Where are both now?

    Why are you treating it like every other move when the move itself is in it's own league.
     
  35. Rake

    Rake Banned

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    Have you battled me before (! HC ! Rakehell or RollingSevens) or am I not the only person who runs that? I just use it for lols, the extra turns you get for subbing with Leftovers is more helpful than the occasional miss you get with brightpowder. Anyway, every argument for banning it refers to Swagger+Sub+prankster sets and on Klefki (Sableye is alright but if it was truly broken this suspect would have come up last gen, Thundurus-I has much better sets to be running, and Liepard is so totally out classed I don't think I've seen a single one this generation) So either suspecting Klefki or Sub+Swagger+Prankster would make much more sense than banning a move that isn't very good. I would vote against both of those but I could at least understand why they would be suspected. For Swagger to work well it needs to A. go first and B. be paired with sub for the extra turns. If we ban it out right we rule out totally not broken strategies that could utilize Swagger not paired with sub and prankster.


    Very different, 1hko moves weren't really broken but was 100% luck with no real counters, same for evasion. You can play around Swaggerplay it has a ton of ways that counter it easily (see my earlier post for a brief, but incomplete list) I've probably tested Swaggerplay more than anyone else here. I'm over 1400 on a throwaway alt using only a team totally built around Klefki+Sableye and I get the occasional cheap wins but most any well built team easily beats it because of its multiple ways to be countered. I lose with the team all the time, the worst OU team I have atm. On the other hand I had an X/Y team that abused that tiers lack of Evasion clause and it was pretty much impossible to lose, I was number 1 in that tier the pretty much entire time I played it. That's why evasion is where it is and Swagger has been around since gen 2 and hasn't needed to be banned.

    :3
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2014
  36. Knots the Notorious

    Knots the Notorious aka Gary Oak from HC

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    But priority swagger was introduced last gen. Klefki is what was introduced this gen. The combination of swagger+prankster has been complained about, sure, just like people complain about grace+flinch. Do these strategies perform abnormally well on the ladder? My experience is that they do not, although I would love to see actual data. My suspicion is that counters to the strategy are already too common; Rotom Wash and Mandibuzz are both great candidates for fighting this strategy and they are already well established in the metagame for a completely different reason (how do I say "aegislash" through muted coughs over the world wide web?)

    It's a very annoying situation to be in, but not much more threatening, I think, than potentially getting stuck in Whimsicott's subseed chain.

    I'm not demanding of anyone to produce one, but a chart of which pokemon can KO themselves with a base 40 physical attack at +2 would be very illuminating. The only Pokemon I can think of that KOs itself in confusion in one turn is Mega Mawile. I'm sure there are others, but I'm not so sure the list is massive.

    You misread me, what I said was that the game DID come with a confusion clause. I was just saying that no two pokemon on a player's team can be confused at one time. Maybe not the most clear way to get my point across.


    Klefki isn't just the most frequent user, it's the best user by a wide margin because of its typing.


    I would say it is possible for 'swaggerplay' to triumph against other playstyles, but I would not say it can do that consistently, which is a very key distinction to make. This goes back to something I said earlier, I'd love to see some very hard data that shows that you can maintain a very good win/loss record with a team set up to abuse swagger. To be convincing to me, I would want it to perform on par with similar teams in the past that were set up specifically to abuse Drizzle+Swift Swim or Moody.

    I feel compelled to throw out another disclaimer, that I am making no demands of anyone for this data to be produced and presented, only suggesting that it would add greatly to the discussion here.

    My apologies, I didn't mean to single you out. I pwomise.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2014
  37. Rake

    Rake Banned

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    "Klefki isn't just the most frequent user, it's the best user by a wide margin because of its typing."

    Actually typing plus stats that are far, far, better than Sableye and Liepards.
     
  38. ! HC ! Angelite

    ! HC ! Angelite Hellfire Black Widow

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    #Free Angelite
    I see absolutely nothing positive with keeping Swagger in OverUsed, or any tier for that matter.

    It is an entirely luck reliant move, that not only can ruin your own game, but forces the other player into the same situation more often than not, which sucks a lot of fun from matches where Swagger users eg. Klefki and Sableye are involved.

    While it is true that confusion has been around the metagame forever, I really see no reason why it should affect a hypothetical ban or suspect of the move itself.
    Yes, if it gets used against an opponent who uses for example a Lum Berry on something surprising, it can ruin the swagger player's own game, but it is still as easy to just patch holes in one's team with Sub/Swagger-strategy for when the player
    A) Does not know what to do
    B) Does not know what to use the last slot to check or counter

    Chances of a brutally long chain of Swagger might decrease gradually, although the coin flip is 50-50 every time, except for when Swagger is used to increase the opponent's attack stat again, or confuse it to begin with, which is when chances of hitting through it are technically greater for the opponent who is getting hit by Swagger.

    However, the move, especially with priority can swing the game in the favour of the player who is rather often being outplayed by a superior opponent, and attempting to control the RNG factor of the game to a ridiculous extend, more so than I can imagine OHKO-moves doing.

    In conclusion : Ban it. I cannot see anything positive it brings. It does not even matter if the majority of the users can be 1-2 hitted with +2, it has no relevance other than being an annoying tool to hax people to death.
     
  39. Wasabi

    Wasabi New Member

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    The suggestion of this particular ban to me makes me question what game you guys think you are playing. Are you playing a game designed by others that is specifically constructed to allow for both skill and luck to play large factors in winning or losing? Or are you playing a game you have tailored to what you consider the game should be?

    Confusion has been a part of the game since the beginning. Considering using items is not possible in competitive play, you already have the advantage against confusion in that it's one of the only status conditions that can be cured by simply switching out.

    Let's be real here, we are only considering this ban cause of Klefki. In my experience, while prankster swagger and t-wave is annoying, that's all it is. A slight annoyance. I would compare it with a mosquito that follows you from room to room around the house. It can be mildly irritating at times, but in the end, it's not really a threat.

    The idea of banning swagger, and from what i can tell, confusion in general is almost ludicrous to me. Prankster/Swagger abuse is for the most part a very unsuccessful strategy in practice. Many of the prankster users have terrible defensive stats, and while klefki may have the best defensive stats/typing of the lot, the way to beat him is the same as every other swagger user. They can't gain traction unless you take the risk of staying in and trying to hit through the confusion/paralysis. As the status effect, much like Attract, can be removed simply by switching out.

    If swagger abuse teams were conquering the ladder, being seen everywhere and ruining everyone's fun then I could be considered a legitimate problem, but klefki is the highest ranked prankster/swagger user at #37 in OU, which is pretty low. And he doesn't even get recover, like Sableeye. The teams themselves are never successful at the top level, because when it comes down to it, Skill>Luck. Good players will beat swagger teams/abuse more often than not because they understand the game.

    This is not even a strategy I would use myself beyond simple experimentation. Which I already have.

    Personally, I don't think banning it will have much impact on the meta, almost as little as leaving it there. I feel it would be going too far removing this aspect since by itself it's not even that prevalent a problem. If so many people do consider it an issue, I offer this alternative:


    Instead of banning confusion and confusion related moves, I suggest you introduce a CONFUSION CLAUSE, which would not operate like sleep clause, but instead operate like the Species clause. This clause could limit prankster/swagger combination/confusion-inducing moves to no more than one pokemon per team, similarly to how the species clause limits you to only one pokemon with the same National dex # per team.. So basically, only one confusion inducing move (either directly or indirectly) per team.

    e.g If their using dynamic punch machamp, then that would be it. They couldn't use any other pokemon on that team that could induce confusion period.

    I feel this clause is more healthy than outright banning it. It allows people to utilize confusion, a completely legitimate strategy, without being able to abuse it, similarly to what was done with the sleep and freeze clause.
     
  40. Nicehat

    Nicehat PO client damage calc: preview.tinyurl.com/o8e7hss

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    The fact that almost literally every Pokemon in the game gets Swagger and yet there are only four (being generous) Pokemon problematic with it, all of which have Prankster, says everything about how stupid a Swagger ban would be.

    If we look at the previous move bans that have been instated, Double Team would have been absurd on pretty much anything remotely viable in RBY (the fact that Ice Beam freeze is a viable strategy to win in RBY says everything about how broken Double Team and Minimize would be) and OHKO moves on literally any Pokemon allow them to destroy almost all of their counters (read: all the ones without Sturdy) with the same rate as a burn from Scald. There is no doubt that if they were legal, they would completely warp the metagame with their presence on virtually any Pokemon that had access to them. Compared to these, Swagger isn't even close to meriting a ban considering the vast majority of Pokemon with access never even consider using it.

    It's wrong to say that Double Team and OHKO moves are banned 'because of luck'. They're banned because their power level is (or was, in the case of Double Team perhaps) completely broken. Swagger isn't even close to that point yet and there's no reason to ban it instead of banning the Prankster abusers that have it.
     
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