1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Guest, PO has ceased our separate tiering and adopted Smogon tiers for SM. More information and updates here.

    Dismiss Notice

Dialga

Discussion in 'Outdated Ubers Analyses' started by Fixed, Feb 28, 2014.

  1. Fixed

    Fixed Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2013
    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    99
    [​IMG]

    Overview
    - Awesome typing, dragon that's neutral to dragon and fairy, resists SR and immune to Toxic
    - One of the best SR setters
    - Powerful and has great coverage
    - Also very bulky
    - No good recovery
    - Pretty slow
    - Great early game, sucks late game

    Offensive
    Dialga @ Life Orb
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Draco Meteor
    - Flash Cannon
    - Thunder

    - The best offensive SR setter
    - Very powerful, 7/16 chance to OHKO 252/0 Groudon (but watch out for Jolly Eplate)
    - Great coverage, not many Pokemon beat it 1v1
    - Common support Arceus formes (Fairy, Rock, Water) can't Defog on this
    - Thunder hits Ho-oh, Yveltal and Kyogre
    - Works well as a lead, in general try to use early
    - Has some trouble switching in, neutral moves like Palkia's Spacial Rend 2HKO
    - Fire Blast isn't as good as last gen, but still hits Ferrothorn and Scizor
    - Adamant Orb can be used if you don't like recoil but Thunder becomes much weaker, Adamant Orb is good with Fire Blast though
    - It's possible to run less speed, perhaps 237 for Jirachi/Xerneas/Yveltal or 265 for base 70s and some Xerneas

    Specially Defensive
    Dialga @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse
    - Thunder Wave / Toxic / Roar
    - Fire Blast / Roar

    - Very bulky on both sides
    - Toxic cripples Arceus formes trying to Defog and lets you counter CM Arceus
    - Thunder Wave cripples nearly all non-Ground switchins
    - Flash Cannon or Thunder could be used in the last slot to hit specific targets
    - No recovery, so be careful
    - Recommended to speed creep a little

    Choice Specs
    Dialga @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Pressure
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    - Draco Meteor
    - Flash Cannon
    - Thunder
    - Fire Blast

    - Such power
    - Nothing but Chansey/Blissey switches in safely
    - Be prepared to predict a lot
    - No SR
    - Timid can be used, as well as bulkier versions with less speed

    Good Partners
    - Blaziken, Groudon and Mewtwo-X checks e.g. Arceus Ghost/Fairy, Landorus-T, Giratina (both), Lugia
    - Rain is good for Dialga, better matchup vs Ho-oh and accurate Thunder
    - Gengar to trap Chansey for offensive sets, otherwise physical attackers that can use the free turns given by Chansey/Blissey
    - Sweepers that appreciate SR up
    - Draco Meteor can leave you setup bait, make sure you can handle Xerneas/Ekiller/CM Arceus

    Other Options
    - Smashpass reciever
    - Scarf is a decent revenge killer and has the niche of resisting Extreme Speed
    - Assault Vest with offensive EVs can work because good coverage, but you don't wall Kyogre
    - Can set and abuse Trick Room
    - Rest/Talk/Bulk Up/Dragon Tail with Gengar support
    - Stone Edge can get a surprise kill on Ho-oh with LO or Expert Belt

    Checks and Counters
    - Chansey/Blissey
    - Ho-oh against the support set, but has to watch out for status
    - Arceus formes if you lack Toxic or the appropriate coverage move
    - Ferrothorn if no Fire Blast
    - Blaziken, (Earth Plate) Groudon and Mewtwo-X scare it out
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2014
  2. Shadow Sneak

    Shadow Sneak came in like

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2013
    Messages:
    301
    Likes Received:
    27
    PO Trainer Name:
    Shadow Sneak
    looks perfect, i'd add in baton pass receiver in oo
     
  3. Fixed

    Fixed Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2013
    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    99
    Thanks, forgot about that.
     
  4. Ramiel

    Ramiel On our backs. In our hearts.

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2013
    Messages:
    248
    Likes Received:
    81
    PO Trainer Name:
    Gurren Lagann
    Hm. If specs is viable, then Scarfed set is viable as well imo. It has a niche of being one of the usable Scarfers that can take down Extreme Killer Arceus from 70percent down with DMeteor as it has a nice Normal resistance and a rather nice physical bulk

    For Offensive, Ebelt is a good mention too since it can abuse its good coverage.

    Draco Meteor should be slashed behind Dragon Pulse imo. On the specially defensive set of course - since the Offensive set needs it.

    Other than those nitpicks, a great skeleton :)
     
  5. puregenius

    puregenius :<

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2011
    Messages:
    481
    Likes Received:
    50
    Looks good, just a few things.

    -Mention his neutrality to Dragon next to the Fairy part in General. It is still an awesome trait.

    -I'd change Toxic as the primary slash on the support set. The most common Defog Arceus (from what I've seen) are Fairy and Rock, both of which have are always 2hkoed by Flash Cannon after Rocks even without investment. Because of this, Twave is generally more crippling than Toxic.

    -Not sure if the EVs are optimal for the Specially Defensive set.
     
  6. Fixed

    Fixed Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2013
    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    99
    I've updated the skeleton a bit.

    Added in Other Options. I still think Scarf is not a good set, but checking damaged Ekiller is very useful so noted that.

    This could be possible, but your Draco Meteor against random neutral targets becomes much weaker. I don't really like it, but could possibly be added in OO.

    I'm not sure on this either, Dragon Pulse is just so weak. Draco Meteor nets you important OHKOs against Palkia (without AV) and Zekrom, and set-up sweepers like Ekiller are hardly more afraid of Dragon Pulse than -2 Draco Meteor. Both moves are definitely viable, but I personally prefer Draco Meteor. One big advantage of Dragon Pulse though is dealing with Sub Ho-oh and getting status on it (preferably in Rain).

    Done, also noted SR resistance and Toxic immunity. Steel OP.

    Done. In practice Toxic vs. Thunder Wave will probably depend on what your team needs, so I don't mind the moves being either way around.

    I've done a few calcs to find important stat points, and found the following:

    Offensive

    28+ to 2HKO 252/0 Landorus-T with 2 Meteor through Leftovers
    56+ to OHKO 0/0 Zekrom with Pulse after SR
    60+ to 2HKO 252/0 Groudon with FC + Meteor after SR through Leftovers
    80+ to OHKO 252/0 Ho-oh's Sub with Pulse
    156+ to 2HKO 252/0 Groudon with FC + Meteor through Leftovers (without SR)
    164+ to OHKO 4/0 AV Palkia with Meteor after SR
    172+ to 2HKO 252/0 Groudon with 2 Meteor after SR through Leftovers

    Defensive

    160+ to live 2 Lustrous Palkia Spacial Rends after SR (196 has 72.7% to live)
    188+ to live 2 Kyogre Water Spout after SR (196 has 48.4% to live)
    216+ to live 2 LO Naive Yveltal Dark Pulse after SR (196 has 29.7% to live and 252+ has 74.2% to live from Rash Yveltal)
    252+ has 99.6% to live 2 Mewtwo-Y Aura Sphere after SR (196 has 5.9% to live)

    I personally think keeping 252/252+ as the main spread is good, but of course I will note what different levels of SAtk investment can accomplish.
     
  7. ZoroDark

    ZoroDark i know everything

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,638
    Likes Received:
    1,075
    Yeah pgenius got most of it I think. The Specially Defensive set looks like it has a pretty bad case of slashitis as of now. I'd probably scratch Roar in the 3rd moveslot since status is a necessity in this meta. I can't really think of any situation where you'd wish you had Flash Cannon on a SpDef Dialga over the other 3 options, so personally I'd scratch that as well. Scarf is actually a pretty neat glue set on all kinds of teams. I don't think it deserves a separate set either, but make the tone of the sentence where you mention it a bit more positive.
     
  8. Edgar

    Edgar I'm the ruler of the free world

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2012
    Messages:
    208
    Likes Received:
    208
    I can differ, Roar is still good to catch Geomancy Xerneas and Extremekiller off guard, status on Dialga isnt really a necessity unless your team has no other pokemon with Toxic/Thunder Wave.

    Also, I think there could be a better spread for Offensive SR Dialga:

    Dialga @ Life Orb
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 200 HP / 252 SAtk / 56 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)


    And I don't know if I agree with no Fire Blast, although there's not much Ferrothorns, having no Fire Blast gives scizor the opportunity to defog as it lives the Thunder. Also hits Klefki really hard. Maybe slash it with Thunder....?
     
  9. Fixed

    Fixed Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2013
    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    99
    Updated again.

    I've moved Flash Cannon and Thunder to the comments to reduce slashing, I hope it's fine now because 2 attacks + Roar is a thing too. Changed comment about scarf.

    What does 56 Spd even do? Anyways, added some specific speed numbers to aim for on the comment about speed. Fire Blast can be useful for sure, but I feel that all other moves are much more required so I don't want to slash it in the set. Updated the comments on Fire Blast though.

    Btw, I personally run 12 HP / 252 SAtk / 48 SDef / 196 Spd on this (lives Timid Specs Kyogre) and wouldn't mind changing the main spread to something slower. QC, suggestions? Also, what am I supposed to do regarding speed creep?
     
  10. [PRO]Duct

    [PRO]Duct New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2012
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    0
    Is the life orb physical or mixed set with iron head,outrage so bad this gen that it isnt worthy to be mentioned?
     
  11. Fixed

    Fixed Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2013
    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    99
    Yes...
     
  12. [PRO]Duct

    [PRO]Duct New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2012
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well i said my point its upto the Tier Leaders to review me as the physical set is still a classic.Base 120 hits really hard and lands a surprise package to Ogres/Blisseys/Assault Kias/Nails Hooh(sedge okoes and outrage does loads damage).but has some flaws too which u can understand. Well thats what i think rest upto the leaders.
     
  13. Ramiel

    Ramiel On our backs. In our hearts.

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2013
    Messages:
    248
    Likes Received:
    81
    PO Trainer Name:
    Gurren Lagann
    There are... tier leaders for Ubers?
    Wot
    Ubers is a banlist though.
    People play it a lot so it's just more known. Hell in Smogon they even got rid of Evasion clause.

    Also, yeah physical mix could use a mention in OO, seeing as Dialga has 120 Attack, buffed-up Dragon Tail, EQ, SE, Iron Head, Outrage, to use. It DOES nail specific threats, but could still be used. Another, Steel has been buffed up to the point where it's usable as a STAB now(Read: Xerneas exists).
    No main sets however. Just in OO.
     
  14. Fixed

    Fixed Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2013
    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    99
    Hmm, I'll mention Stone Edge in other options. It's the only physical move that actually does something special moves can't do. You don't need investment if you use LO/Ebelt so there's no reason to use other physical moves alongside it.
     
  15. ZoroDark

    ZoroDark i know everything

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,638
    Likes Received:
    1,075
    Looks good, QC 1/3
     
  16. Hack

    Hack Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2013
    Messages:
    113
    Likes Received:
    370
    Dialga's best set this gen is the specially defensive SR setter with Toxic. It has further utility in checking Palkia/Kyogre. Should p much always use SR/Draco/Fire Blast/Toxic.

    LO SR loses in the war of attrition vs some defog Arceus and isn't bringing any noteworthy synergy to the table either due to no bulk investment. It's a much less effective set this generation.
     
  17. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2012
    Messages:
    2,123
    Likes Received:
    110
    I really think the mixed set needs to be mentioned, at least in OO. It's a great wallbreaker and gets loads of surprise KOs on Pokémon that think they can either wall Dialga or can set up on it, like Blissey and Xerneas respectively. I've used it with great success.

    Dialga @ Adamant Orb / Life Orb / Expert Belt
    Trait: Pressure
    Mild Nature (+SAtk -Def) / Quiet Nature (+SAtk -Spd)
    EV: 252 Atk / 252 SAtk / 4 Spd
    Draco Meteor
    Fire Blast
    Iron Tail
    Outrage / Thunder

    EVs are self explanatory. Calcs:

    252 Atk Adamant Orb Dialga Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 403-475 (56.4 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Adamant Orb Dialga Iron Tail vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 390-458 (94.8 - 111.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
    252 Atk Adamant Orb Dialga Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 243-286 (58.4 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    52 Atk Adamant Orb Dialga Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 342-404 (84.6 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    It sounds gimmicky, but trust me, it works.