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[Approved] Gengar

Discussion in 'OU Analyses' started by Shadow Sneak, Feb 28, 2014.

  1. Shadow Sneak

    Shadow Sneak came in like

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    [​IMG]
    Overview
    Introduced in the first generation, Gengar has always been a force to be reckoned with. Why is that? Well Gengar is the definition of a swift and strong special attacker. Also with the steel nerf Gengar's typing is excellent this gen. With a massive 130 Special Attack stat, and a perfect base 110 Speed stat, you can't disagree with the fact that Gengar is a great OU Pokemon.

    Pros

    • A 130 Special attack stat hits hard
    • A 110 Speed stat pairs nicely with it's great power, outspeeding a number of things
    • It's great ability Levitate protects it from Ground moves, a type that Gengar takes x2 damage from
    • Gengar has an above average movepool, giving it many options such as it's unique SubDisable and SubSplit sets
    • It has handy neutral coverage moves with Shadow Ball and Focus Blast
    Cons

    • Gengar has poor defenses, and falls to most non-boosted STAB moves in the tier
    • Gengar is a pretty big Pursuit baiter due to its poor defenses, but predicting correctly can let you deal hard damage to them as they switch in (Focus Blast on Tyranitar and Bisharp, Shadow Ball on Scizor and the rare Pursuiter Aegislash)
    • Poor defenses means it is easily worn down by priority moves

    Sets
    Offensive
    Gengar (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    IVs: 0 Atk
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Shadow Ball
    - Focus Blast
    - Sludge Wave
    - Destiny Bond


    These are Gengar's best offensive options. Life Orb can boost Gengar's strong moves by a bit more, dealing massive damage with it's two STAB moves. Shadow Ball is just mandatory, it's main STAB hits other Pokemon like a truck, you'll probably never see a Gengar without it. Gengar's Focus Blast is a staple move, giving it neutral coverage with the two latter moves. Sludge Wave has become even more useful with the rise of fairies this generation, hitting pretty much every Fairy-type hard. Destiny Bond is the most recommended for the last slot, since Gengar's speed can take advantage of it's opponent's that try to take it down. Overall, this is Gengar's signature set. It's great movepool allows it to hit its opponent in all types of ways, and dealing lots of damage at the same time.


    Substitute
    Gengar (M) @ Black Sludge / Life Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    IVs: 0 Atk
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Shadow Ball
    - Focus Blast
    - Disable / Pain Split / Will-O-Wisp
    - Substitute



    This great stallbreaking variant of Gengar rose last generation, originally consisting of Shadow Ball, Focus Blast, Disable, and Substitute. This generation more options were realized. With great speed, Gengar can run an effective Substitute set, that can shut down walls, and bring them down to very low HP. The item for this set is Black Sludge to help Gengar recover HP after taking damage and of course, using Substitute. Life Orb is also an option with the SubSplit set, allowing you to hit hard and regain HP using Pain Split. Shadow Ball is for the simple STAB, again a priceless move. Focus Blast is to help against Dark-types that could wall you. Disable Gengar can be used to shut down one of the opponent's moves. Being Gengar, you have two immunities to Normal and Fighting type moves, plus another from Levitate being Ground type moves. A good amount of the Pokemon you face in XY OU will have but one move that deals significant damage to Gengar. This is where Disable comes in, you can take the threatening move using Substitute, and use Disable next turn to render said move useless for 4 to 7 turns. That is more than enough time to take down your opponent considering it does not switch out. Pain Split is another option that pairs well with Substitute. Pain Split gives Gengar a great source of HP recovery, by taking it's HP and the target's HP and splitting it equally. Will-O-Wisp is great for crippling incoming physical attackers , or even while you're behind the sub. Finally, Substitute is what makes this set work, hiding Gengar behind a Substitute that blocks status moves and take hits for you. Overall, the Substitute set is effective, and at some times unsuspecting, giving Gengar multiple chances to KO a Pokemon, in which normal situations might not be able to do so.


    Choice
    Gengar (F) @ Choice Scarf / Choice Specs
    Trait: Levitate
    IVs: 0 Atk
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Shadow Ball
    - Sludge Wave
    - Destiny Bond / Trick
    - Focus Blast


    This is the final and most uncommon set of Gengar. Essentially, both Choice sets are the same, and both have their own little niche. Choice Scarf being the more dominant choice item, out speeds even more threats in OU being the fastest common Choice Scarf user in the the tier. Choice Specs is the alternative item, giving you immense power. Nothing would want to switch into a Specs boosted Shadow Ball, as it would deal devastating damage to pretty much anything. Sludge Wave again is Gengar's best STAB move, dealing hard damge. The third move slot is quite optional, as Destiny Bond will let you take down threats as you near low HP without them expecting it, as Trick can cripple a Pokemon making it useless. Destiny Bond is recommended for the Choice Scarf set, while Trick is recommended for the Choice Specs set. Focus Blast comes by itself in this set as you will be locked into one move you will need a lot of coverage.

    Good Partners
    Tyranitar has always been a good partner to Gengar, covering all of it's weaknesses but one. With Excadrill now in OU, Tyranitar is no longer a "perfect partner", as you may call it. In this generation, Mandibuzz is the best partner for Gengar being that Mandibuzz can take both Dark and Ghost moves for it, and immune to Earthquake and Psychic moves. Dark Pokemon in general are great partners for Gengar, as they synergize almost perfectly with it. Gengar also pairs nicely with Fighting-types such as Keldeo-R or Terrakion, taking Dark-moves for it, and Terrakion getting a Justified boost at the same time. Hazards are a good idea to stack with SubDisable, with Gengar being a spinblocker, and forces switches with Disable. To take a more offensive approach on a partner, Hydreigon resists all of Gengar's weaknesses, and it holds amazing attack stats. Also Gengar does a good job taking Fairy moves for it's Dark-typed partners while they dish out moves to hit the opposing Psychic-type

    Other Options
    With Gengar's wide move set, many more options come on how to run it. Another uncommon set Gengar can run is a Sash Counter lead. Although Gengar running this set may prove to be pointless, it can allow you to take down two Pokemon. If on the first turn you are matched up against a physical threat, and endure the hit with your Focus Sash and Counter back. Next turn you can go for Destiny Bond and possibly take down your opponent. This set isn't really too reliable, with so many priority moves in the tier. Also Gengar has a long list of coverage moves that it could run. Dazzling Gleam being one to hit Mandibuzz harder, Thunderbolt can be used against bulky Water-types, Hidden Power Ice can be used to hit Dragonite much harder, and Giga Drain can be used to deal hard damage against Gastrodon. Another great set Gengar can run is MystGar. It's is simply meant to lure in a choiced Pokemon (Genesect, Scizor, Tyranitar), scout out it's move and act accordingly. A move set of Shadow Ball, Focus Blast, Hidden Power Fire, and Protect allow it to deal significant damage to many different common choiced Pokemon.

    Counters and Checks
    With a long list of things that Gengar threatens, comes a long list of things that counter Gengar. The biggest threat of them all being Choice Band Scizor. Scizor has been scaring Gengar since Generation 4, and even after the "steel nerf" Scizor doesn't fear Gengar. A Choice Band Bullet Punch will OHKO 4 HP / 0 Def variants always, while a Life Orb boosted Shadow Ball does about 70% damage. This is actually a time where the Counter Sash set would come in handy. Don't bother trying to escape Scizor's Bullet Punch, most users will use Pursuit to ensure that Gengar goes down. Although that is taking a risk letting Gengar deal serious damage to Scizor. A way to check Gengar is revenge-killing. In most cases your opponent will call in something that will either force it to switch, or try to attack but won't KO. Things like Assault Vest Conkeldurr and Specially Defensive Mandibuzz fill this role greatly. The main idea of countering Gengar is safely getting your counter on the field. You want to force it out, or force it to attack you with a move that you can brush off. Switching in on the wrong move can really hurt you, as Gengar 2HKO's most of it's counters. Dark priority moves such as Sucker Punch and Pursuit really hurt Gengar, but most players will try to work around them. In general, priority moves really hurt Gengar, due to the fact that it has an extremely poor Sp. Def.

    So yes that is my Gengar analysis, comments, suggestions, anything helps
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2014
  2. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Hi, nice analysis with a few issues, but nothing substantial.

    First off, the general:
    Add always (as I did in red + bold), otherwise it isn't grammatically correct and I assume it is what you are getting at based in the preface of the sentence being that it was introduced in generation 1.

    This isn't true. I just checked old stats, you can if you'd like, that show Gengar as being top 10 in RBY, GSC, and ADV. But, it is lurking in the teens in DPP, BW, and (most importantly) XY. Don't make up factoids just to add content.

    Since when did Gengar sweep??? It is a ghost type, letting it he a Spinblocker. It has the ability to run SubDisable and SubSplit sets, making it an offensive support member on some teams. It is a fast, strong special attacker, making it a good scarfer - BUT, it isn't ever setting up and sweeping (or at least that isn't the intention, sometimes it can occur). I'd change that to saying Gengar is a potent offensive threat, or something along those lines.


    Pros and Cons: The first pro isn't really true, a lot of special tanks can survive three or more attacks. Instead of simpily stating that it has an above average movepool, like the last pro, you could state that it can run a unique SubDisable or SubSplit set, getting directly to its niche. As for the cons, it is easily revenged by scarfers can be added.

    As for the first set, you're not forgoing focus blast, so the moves should be Shadow Ball / Focus Blast / Poison Move / Last. Speaking of the last, Dazzling Gleam and Thunderbolt are mediocre, I would just list them in the OO and you can slash Taunt with Destiny Bond, if you wish. Also, the item should only be LO, non-sub Gengar never runs black sludge, needs the power and doesn't need the recovery in most situations.

    The substitute set, or any other Gengar, should never run any bulk - bulky Gengar should not be used in any generation after ADV - only the offensive EV spread is needed. You should not slash any move with Focus Blast, even Sludge Wave/Bomb, as Ghost STAB requires the compliment of fighting to not be major pursuit bait and a liability against so many threats. Speaking of Focus Blast, delete the sentence about it hitting normal types with the two weak examples of: smeargle, as it is irrelevant and laughingly frail, and Chansey, as it will live multiple attacks, even if super effective. Finally, delete Taunt as SubTaunt gar isn't getting many opportunities to taunt, and add LO alongside Black Sludge because SubSplit appreciated LO, more than sludge at least.

    Choice set looks good from a glance.

    In synergy, mention it likes fighting types, like Terrakion and Keldeo, and it could be paired with hazards, as Gengar soinblocks and forces switches with the SubDisable variant.

    Delete the non-attacking Swagger/Confuse Ray set from OO. Mention Protect+HP Fire LO Gengar (MystGar) in OO. Add mention of coverage like Dazzling Gleam, Thunder(bolt), Giga Drain, Hidden Power, etc

    Delete Klefki from C&C, it isn't a counter. Mention revenge killing as a 'check' to Gengar and assault vest conk, SDef Mandibuzz, etc. Checks it. (I could add more, but busy).

    Hope I helped.
     
  3. Shadow Sneak

    Shadow Sneak came in like

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    Alrighty thanks Finch
    -I'll do the always thing right away
    -I always thought Gengar was top 10 in every gen haha my mistake
    -Well I meant sweeping as in taking down opponents quickly, I guess I'll change that
    -Pros and cons, noted
    -Offensive set noted
    -Sub set, noted
    -Synergy, noted but fighting types don't take Psychic moves too well
    -OO Swagger,Confuse Ray, noted
    -Klefki, noted

    Perfect, thanks again
     
  4. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    Will-O-Wisp is worth a mention in OO imo, since it does cripple the majority of its counters (Ttar/Scizor/Physical attackers etc)
     
  5. Shadow Sneak

    Shadow Sneak came in like

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    Done
     
  6. Xinc

    Xinc Time for Oras?

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    I like your analysis. Hydregion may also be a good partner for Gengar as it resists all of Gengar's weakness and vice versa. You might also put 0 IVs on all your sets to mitigate any Foul Play shenanigans (Though Gengar may still go down to one hit) .

    Specially bulky Pokemon like Bliss are still a pain for Gengar, though LO Pain Split Gengar fares better.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2014
  7. Rohail

    Rohail Active Member

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    Time to QC this:

    General
    Gengar's weakness to priority needs to be mentioned, although it can be avoided by Substitute.

    Life Orb
    Please don't slash Sludge Bomb with Sludge Wave. This is an offensive set, and Gengar doesn't really need the increased chance of poison as much as it does the power. Using Sludge Bomb also leaves you walled by Bulletproof Chesnaught, which while rare, still exists and is a threat to Gengar without Sludge Wave.

    Substitute
    Alright, so @Epikhairz and I were discussing this over the server, and we feel that Will-O-Wisp should be slashed with Disable and Pain Split. Gengar is a surprisingly great spreader of burns, burning threats it can't OHKO like Garchomp and Azumarill, leaving them crippled for the rest of the match. WoW also catches Scarfed Tyranitar on the switch, which is great since it would Pursuit-trap you otherwise. Focus Blast also catches it on the switch, but it most likely won't be OHKOed. The scenario is as so: Gengar Will-O-Wisps as Tyranitar switches in. Not only is Tyranitar crippled, it is also left in KO range for Focus Blast. Tyranitar will most likely go for the Pursuit, which doesn't even do over half if it's burned and Gengar doesn't switch out. As Tyranitar Pursuits, you can go for the Focus Blast and most likely OHKO. You can do this with Disable too, but Tyranitar will just switch out after being Disabled, but it won't be left crippled for the rest of the match.

    Aside from that, don't call Sub Gengar a stally set, if anything, it's a stallbreaker.

    Choice
    Much like the LO set, deslash Sludge Bomb please.

    Checks & Counters
    I really like using Mega Scizor to hard check Gengar, since it has really good bulk and can set up all over it. It needs to beware of Will-O-Wisp. Mention priority moves as a whole, since Gengar's physical bulk is just horrible.

    Great job on this though, just implement all of my changes (or address anything you don't agree with), and I'll check back and most likely give you a stamp @Shadow Sneak :)
     
  8. MewtwoHidden

    MewtwoHidden My Hax Makes Me Famous

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    I'd never refer Gengar to be "ultimate pursuit bait" as many of Pokemon that could trap it will fall to a move it can commonly use.

    Tyranitar: Falls to Focus Blast
    [Mega-]Scizor: HP kills it if you have it, in which it is somewhat common.
    Bisharp: 50/50 You can kill with Focus Blast, but if it Suckers you'll get OHKOed
    Aegislash: 50/50 You can kill with Shadow Ball, but Shadow Sneak will OHKO you,

    I'd mention an Icy Wind + Destiny Bond set (Finch showed it to me last Gen) basically you lead (or bring it later in the game) use Icy Wind in which you would then be faster. Then you use Destiny Bond and (hopefully) KO that Pokemon. I mean it might not be "good" any more but I can see it being viable with certainty.

    QC Approve [1] once mine and Rohail's concerns are addressed
     
  9. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Delta Stream

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    AVTtar is the big one that Will-O-Wisp nails, and it doesn't get OHKOd by Focus Blast, with a slim chance to 2HKO

    252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 172-204 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

    Meanwhile...

    0 Atk Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 168-200 (64.1 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Black Sludge recovery

    Basically, scenario is, Ttar switches in when Gengar subs, Ttar breaks Sub, Gengar uses Will-O-Wisp, and AV Ttar is suddenly dead weight
     
  10. MewtwoHidden

    MewtwoHidden My Hax Makes Me Famous

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    For starters, fully invested AV Ttar is a good set, but according to the Usage Statistics (Although I dislike using them in arguments...)
    AV TTar with Pursuit appears in just under 250 battles in about 37,000.

    Meanwhile, you did not factor in Life Orb damage in the calculation which would put it safely as a 2HKO which means even if it doesn't come in directly on Gengar, a Gengar with full HP will defeat just about every Tyranitar set if it doesn't switch out and fall to a pursuit since if it the TTar invests in bulk fully, it cant OHKO Gengar, and if it does it will fall to a LO Focus Blast.
     
  11. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Delta Stream

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    We are talking about the Substitute set here, where Black Sludge is usually used over Life Orb, because it is a Substitute set after all (hence the front-slash - LO should only really be used with Pain Split or if you really need that extra damage output imo), and AV Ttar is one of regular Ttar's best sets imo and should always be prepared for, though it isn't even the only thing Will-O-Wisp can affect more than other moves (see Rohail's other examples - Azumarill, Garchomp, etc.)
     
    Rohail likes this.
  12. Shadow Sneak

    Shadow Sneak came in like

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    Will implement all of this when I get the chance later on today
     
  13. MewtwoHidden

    MewtwoHidden My Hax Makes Me Famous

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    You misunderstood me. If the Sub set is behind the sub it can win 1v1, and the Life Orb set cannot be switched in on by Ttar for fear of Focus Blast. AV TTar is definitively a good check but I wouldn't call it a counter... not to mention the fact that fully invested AV Ttar cant OHKO with Pursuit according to your calc. My point is just that Gengar has the tools neccesery to not be "pursuit bait" under reasonable circumstances.

    I'd also mention that Gengar gets perfect neutral coverage (iirc) with only two moves; Focus Blast and Shadow Ball.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2014
  14. Rohail

    Rohail Active Member

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    Alright, QC time again:

    General
    Mention how Ghost is an excellent offensive typing due to the Steel nerf.

    Life Orb
    Tiny nitpick, but I wouldn't say that Destiny Bond is a filler on LO Gengar. Destiny Bond is a mainstay and extremely useful for Gengar as it lets it take down an extra attacker if it's slower than Gengar, which is often the case.

    Substitute
    You don't talk about WoW at all here ._. Do mention why it has a slash.

    Good Partners
    I'd mention how Gengar can take on Fairy-types that trouble Dark-types in return for them taking on Psychic-types.

    Other Options
    Remove WoW from here as it gets a slash on the Sub set.

    This is good otherwise @Shadow Sneak.

    QC Approved 2/3
     
  15. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Delta Stream

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    QC 3/3 after Rohail's changes are implemented

    good job :]
     
  16. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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