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[Final] Charizard

Discussion in 'OU Analyses' started by Dr. Doom, Mar 5, 2014.

  1. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    General

    Once dismissed as nothing more than a fanboy favourite, now one of the most dangerous Pokémon in OU. How did this come to be? Well, in Gen 6 Charizard was presented with 2 Mega Stones: one turns it into a dangerous physical attacker with the Fire/Dragon typing it always longed for while the other gives it higher Special Attack than Mewtwo and Drought which negates its Water weakness, gives it a no charge Solar Beam and powers Fire Blast up to incredible levels. The fact that the 2 megas play very different roles on the team give Charizard a level of unpredictability, as the 2 forms share very few checks. X is the more versatile of the formes, able to be a sweeper, offensive tank and even a wall. Y is more of a one trick pony, but it is very good at that one trick.

    Things aren't perfect for Charizard though. Before mega evolving, it's X4 weak to Stealth Rock, meaning a Defogger/Rapid Spinner is absolutely necessary. After Mega Evolving, X now has to worry about both formes of Spikes and Sticky Web. And while 100 base Speed is solid, there are quite a few faster Pokémon like Keldeo, Terrakion and Garchomp. Nonetheless, both Mega Charizards are excellent Pokémon in OU and you'd be a fool not to consider using them on your team.

    Dragon Dance
    Charizard @ Charizardite X
    Trait: Blaze (Tough Claws)
    Nature: Jolly (+Spd -Satk)
    EV: 72 HP / 252 Atk / 184 Spd
    Dragon Dance
    Flare Blitz
    Dragon Claw
    Earthquake / Roost

    Dragon Dance is an excellent move for any physical sweeper, and Charizard is no exception. After using it, Charizard will outrun the unboosted metagame and have the power to 2HKO most of OU. Flare Blitz serves as your powerful STAB, hitting for a nuclear 240 power thanks to Tough Claws and STAB. Dragon Claw serves as the safe STAB, and still hits pretty hard thanks to Tough Claws. Earthquake rounds out the coverage, scoring OHKOes on Heatran and Mega Diancie who resist Charizard's STABs. However, Roost can be used instead to offset Flare Blitz's recoil.

    The EVs give Charizard enough Speed to outrun Choice Scarf Landorus-T at +1, with Attack maximised and the remainder in HP for bulk.

    Special Attacker
    Charizard @ Charizardite Y
    Trait: Blaze (Drought)
    Timid Nature (+Spd -Atk) / Modest Nature (+Satk -Atk)
    EV: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Fire Blast
    Focus Blast
    Solar Beam
    Roost

    An extremely simple set to use: fire off powerful attacks, heal when you get the chance, and fire off some more. Fire Blast gets STAB and hits for a staggering 247 power in Sun. Focus Blast 2HKOes any Heatran and OHKOes most Tyranitar. Solar Beam blows most bulky Water-types to hell in Sun, cleanly OHKOing physically defensive Rotom-W after Stealth Rock. Roost keeps Charizard healthy, enabling it to do damage throughout the match. The EVs maximise Speed and power. Choose nature depending on whether you prefer more Speed or more power.

    StallZard
    Charizard @ Charizardite X
    Trait: Blaze (Tough Claws)
    Careful Nature (+Sdef -Satk)
    EV: EVs: 248 HP / 140 SDef / 120 Spd
    Will-O-Wisp
    Roost
    Dragon Claw
    Fire Punch / Earthquake / Flare Blitz

    While this set seems bizarre at first glance, it actually makes a lot of sense once you look outside the box. Most of Mega Charizard X's switch-ins (Landorus-T, Azumarill) will absolutely hate a burn, and due to its typing, Fire-types pretty much never switch in. Will-O-Wisp is the crux of this set and renders most physical attackers dead weight. Dragon Claw serves as the main STAB move - even with no investment, it hits hard thanks to Tough Claws and 130 base Attack. Fire Punch also gets STAB and the Tough Claws boost. Earthquake can be used instead to hit Heatran and Mega Diancie hard, while Flare Blitz is much more powerful than Fire Punch. However, using it will mean you have to Roost more often.

    The EVs maximise overall bulk while allowing Charizard to outrun 252 Speed Jolly Mega Tyranitar, as well as Adamant Gyarados and Excadrill. The rest is placed in Special Defence to give Charizard more balanced bulk.

    Double Booster
    Charizard @ Charizardite X
    Trait: Blaze
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk -SAtk)
    Swords Dance
    Tailwind
    Flare Blitz
    Dragon Claw

    This set's main USP is its flexibility. Facing a bulky stall team? Use Swords Dance, and smash their walls to pieces. Facing a fast hyper offensive team? Use Tailwind and pick off their frail attackers. If you get space, you could use both booting moves, after which Charizard will be almost unstoppable. Flare Blitz serves as Charizard's powerful STAB, although it should be used with caution due to the recoil. Dragon Claw serves as the reliable STAB. The EVs maximise Charizard's power and Speed.

    Roost + 3 Attacks
    Charizard @ Charizardite X
    Trait: Blaze (Tough Claws)
    EVs: 136 HP / 252 Atk / 120 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk -Satk)
    Flare Blitz
    Dragon Claw
    Earthquake
    Roost

    This set forgoes Charizard X's usual roles of sweeping or tanking, and instead serves the role as wallbreaker. It plays much the same way as Charizard Y's set - hit hard, Roost when you get the chance, keep hitting. Flare Blitz and Dragon Claw again serve as the STAB moves, hitting most of the tier neutrally. Earthquake rounds out the coverage, hitting Heatran and Diancie super effectively. Roost offsets Flare Blitz's damage and allows Charizard to fire off powerful attacks throughout the match.

    The EVs give enough Speed to outrun 252 Speed Jolly Mega Tyranitar as well as Adamant Gyarados and Excadrill, with Attack maximised and the remainder in HP for bulk.

    Other Options

    Mega Charizard Y can sweep with Tailwind or Flame Charge, but it's generally better off as an all-out attacker. Both forms can also run mixed attacking sets, but they generally don't accomplish much the existing sets couldn't already do. Air Slash and Dragon Pulse can be used on Mega Charizard Y's special attacker set, but Focus Blast and Solar Beam offer better coverage while Roost's recovery greatly improves its lifespan, allowing it to do more damage throughout the match. Hidden Power Ice can replace Roost to hit Garchomp and Dragonite harder, but overall Roost is more useful. Outrage is another strong STAB Charizard X can use - it is extremely powerful and can 2HKO 252/252 Bold Mega Slowbro after Stealth Rock, but its lock in effect and confusion make it risky to use. Fire Punch can be used on sweeping sets if you dislike recoil, but it is considerably weaker than Flare Blitz.

    Checks and Counters

    The unpredictability of Mega Charizard makes it hard to directly counter, although you can get a good idea of which one it is by looking at its teammates. If it's paired with strong wall breakers, then there's a good chance it's Mega Charizard X. If it's paired with good sweepers, chances are it's Mega Charizard Y. Assault Vest Azumarill is a great check to both, as it's able to switch in on Mega Charizard X if unboosted and 2HKO with Play Rough after factoring in Flare Blitz's recoil. Meanwhile, Mega Charizard Y's Solar Beam never OHKOes, Fire Blast and Focus Blast do minimal damage, and Azumarill can 2HKO with Waterfall and Aqua Jet. However, a burn from Stallzard will render Azumarill useless. Stealth Rock is a good, general way of keeping Charizard in check, since it takes 50% damage before Mega Evolving, which puts it into easy KO range from most strong attackers.

    Defensive Landorus-T can survive most attacks from Mega Charizard X and (with a little prior damage) OHKO with Earthquake, although it is crippled by a burn. Mega Slowbro can wall most of Charizard X's sets, but can be 2HKOed by a +2 Dragon Claw from the Double Booster set. Heatran, Tyranitar, Azumarill and Mega Diancie can beat sets that lack Earthquake, although Tyranitar and Azumarill will lose to the Stallzard set.

    Dragon-types in general are good at dealing with Mega Charizard Y. Latios and Garchomp can switch in on anything it does, outrun, and OHKO with Draco Meteor and Stone Edge respectively. Dragonite also takes little damage from any of its moves while 2HKOing with Dragon Claw and Extreme Speed. Chansey and Blissey wall Mega Charizard Y while crippling it with status.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2014
  2. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Hey doom, good work! I'll go section by section with my thoughts and possible changes.

    General
    The first point on unpredictability isn't necessarily true as it is pretty evident based on team preview if you put some thought into it, but I guess it's ok being mentioned if you wish - the having two mega evolutions point, alone, certainly deserves a mention. When discussing hazards, mention that Y is 4x weak to rocks, while X is only 2x. I wouldn't go into specifics like the drawbacks of X's STABs and how Y's predictable, but no need to delete it now, I suppose.

    Dragon Dance
    I would back-slash roost with Earthquake. You have respectable bulk on Charizard and good defensive typing, but with Stealth Rocks, damage taken while setting up, etc. adding up, Roost is a valuable asset so you are able to survive moves from walls, like Moonblast from Clefable, Lava Plume from Heatran, and Scald from Politoed, or priority like Sucker Punch from Bisharp, Extreemspeed from Genesect or Dragonite, and Mach Punch from Breloom or Conkeldurr. Otherwise, the set looks fine.

    Mixed Attacker
    Personally, haven't used this set, but I have seen it. The current set looks alright, but I have seen a mixed set for Charizardnite Y with Flare Blitz, able to 2HKO Blissey and Chandey with Sun, Solarbeam, (FocusBlast/Earthquake/AirSlash), and Roost. I'd mention that this is an alternative in the set comments, or at least OO it (haven't gotten there, if already OOd, then disregard this). Personally, I disagree with using Flare Blitz and Overheat, I would make the set Overheat/Earthquake/DragonClaw/Roost, especially since when switching in for the first time you are still 4x SR weak, but you can mix it in with slashes or just set comment it, really personal preference based here.

    Special Attacker
    Maybe consider set commenting or slashing (with roost or focus blast) Air Slash, but it isn't too vital a move. Otherwise, well done.

    Other Options
    Mention Charizard-X's bulky set with Will-O-Wisp/Roost/DragonClaw/Earthquake. Not worth making a set and I don't know the EVs, but it is a really anti-metagame set and works effectively. Random moves like Toxic and Belly Drum could get mentioned, but not needed.

    Checks & Counters
    Mention and Emphasize how Stealth Rocks are so bothersome to Charizard and strong scarfers / priority can finish it after hazards damage, acting as a psuedo-check or revenge killer to Zard.

    Good analysis, hope I helped!
     
  3. MewtwoHidden

    MewtwoHidden My Hax Makes Me Famous

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    The stallish w-o-w ev spread is this: EVs: 248 HP / 32 Atk / 188 Def / 40 Spd

    Add Quagsire as a Mega Char X COUNTER

    Quagsire switches in after the Dragon Dance reveals that it is Mega Char X.
    252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 150-177 (38 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Takes decent damage from dragon claw, takes another and recover stalls. At that point you can Toxic it or EQ it twice, it makes little difference.
    4 Atk Quagsire Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 174-206 (58.3 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.


    I really recommend the Stall set be made into the set, I personally use it a lot and it's a godsend for stall teams being able to deal a great deal of damage, provide support, and bluff a later game cleaner set.

    Here are some damage calcs to express it's usefulness.
    252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 188 Def Mega Charizard X: 183-216 (50.9 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    32+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 210-247 (70.4 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Beats CB Adamant Talon if rocks are down

    4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 142-168 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    32+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 112-133 (36.8 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    Stalls Rotom-W out easily, since Rotom-W fails to hit it for 50%

    4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 112-133 (31.1 - 37%) -- 79% chance to 3HKO
    32+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Clefable: 307-363 (77.9 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Same with Clefable

    Personally speaking, if that Mixed Charizard X set is worth a set, the stall set is to.

    Adamant should be back slashed on the Dragon Dance set.

    I don't think Air Slash deserves a mention, and neither does Dragon Pulse unless you're scared of Latios coming in. Really they are decent moves for it, but Char Y has such good options that they aren't worth passing for Dragon Claw/Air Slash.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 12, 2014
  4. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Thanks for your suggestions guys

    Will slash Roost in on the Dragon Dance set, and remove mentions of the drawbacks to Charizard-X's STABs in general. I didn't list mixed Charizard-Y in the main analysis because when I used it it didn't perform nearly as well as the special attacker set. While blowing through the pink blobs was nice, it got worn down extremely quickly and no matter what I ran there were always issues. Your suggestion to replace Flare Blitz with Roost on X's mixed set are a good idea, since that set's generally used as a hit and run attacker. I will still slash Outrage in with Dragon Claw though, since it cleanly 2HKOs physically defensive Rotom-W which Dragon Claw doesn't:
    252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 118-139 (38.8 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 175-207 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    As for Air Slash, I really don't see the point. It hits Dragonite a bit harder, but give up Roost and you're crippled by Stealth Rock, give up Focus Blast and Tyranitar hard counters you and give up Solar Beam and the bulky Water types have a field day. And what does it hit that Fire Blast/Focus Blast/Solar Beam doesn't? A neutral Fire Blast in sun is more powerful than a X2 Air Slash
    252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 270-320 (65.2 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr in Sun: 297-351 (71.7 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    I will mention Charizard-X's support set in OO. It does sound interesting, although Specially Defensive Heatran is immune to Poison and neutral to Stealth Rock. Still Charizard has reliable recovery...
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2014
  5. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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  6. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Delta Stream

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    Unlocking, since Dr. Doom has all his current analyses completed
     
  7. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    Mention Mixed Charizard Y.
    Charizard (F) @ Charizardite Y
    Trait: Blaze
    EVs: 16 HP / 204 Atk / 36 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Lonely Nature (+Atk, -Def)
    - Flare Blitz
    - Earthquake
    - Solar Beam
    - Roost
    The main crux of the set is being able to 2hko Chansey with a Sun-boosted Flare Blitz. Earthquake also catches the common Heatran off guard and KOs it. Solar Beam is really for water-types such as Rotom-W and roost is to regain back hp. 16hp gives Charizard 301hp, which lets it live 3 seismic tosses/night shades.

    C&C
    Mention right at the top that Charizard is really difficult to counter until it has revealed its mega forme. Once it has mega evolved, it is significantly easier to check as you know what mega charizard you are facing. Furthermore both Charizards actually beat each other's counters, so make a wrong move with the guessing game and you may lose a pokemon.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2014
    MewtwoHidden and Finchinator like this.
  8. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I've listed Support Charizard-X as a main set. Going to try mixed Charizard-Y a few times before putting it in the main analysis.
     
  9. Rohail

    Rohail Active Member

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    Hi hello, I'm here to give some of my input on this analysis. Take it with a grain of salt, as I'm (obviously) not QC.

    I don't agree with @Finchinator in that Charizard's unpredictability doesn't need to be mentioned in the Overview. It's seriously what makes Charizard so deadly. You never know what form Charizard is, leaving you guessing and fishing for a 50/50 to see if you bring in the right check, as everything that checks Mega Charizard-X is pummeled by Mega Charizard-Y, while everything that checks Mega Charizard-Y is destroyed by Mega Charizard-X. You can't really tell by Team Preview what form it's going to be unless you see Zard on a stall team, where you would know that it's Mega Zard-X. Both forms love Defog support and the presence of Pursuit users, since they're both weak to the Latis, even Zard-X, since it needs to have a boost to be able to avoid the revenge kill. Both forms also love Thundurus support to slow down Pokemon for Zard-Y to demolish, and slow down Scarfers and Deo-S to Zard-X can sweep unhindered. Aside from that, don't mention how Zard-X takes 25% from switching in on SR, as it would need to take 50% initially since it's a Fire/Flying type before Mega Evolving.

    On the DD set, mention that Flare Blitz functions really well with Roost. Also mention some Pokemon Mega Zard can use as setup fodder, such as Ferrothorn, Clefable, defensive Mega Venusaur, etc.

    In OO, I would move the mixed Zard-Y set up to first, since it is an excellent lure and an overall great alternative to using Zard-Y.

    In C&C, AV Azumarill needs to be stressed as the one and only somewhat-hard check to both Zard forms. From Zard-X, it avoids the OHKO if it switches in as Zard-X boosts and can do a shitton of damage with Play Rough, procceding to kill it with Aqua Jet on the next turn after Zard-X takes the recoil from Flare Blitz. As for Zard-Y, it can switch in on a Fire Blast, and then proceed to take the incoming Solar Beam, and strike hard with Waterfall, then finish it off with Aqua Jet on the next turn unless it gets absolutely minimum rolls.

    Aside from that, this analysis is very well done. I hope I helped with my feedback :)
     
  10. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Give unpredictability a decent mention in Overview, I guess, still never strikes me as too problematic bar some rare cases, but I see what you're getting at.

    I still think mixed y > mixed x and then mention mixed x in OO.

    Agreeing w/ Rohail on AV Azumarill.
     
  11. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I've tried Mixed Zard X and Y, and I had better results with X. I'll list mixed Y as a main set though. Mixed Zard-X is a great wallbreaker due to impeccable 3 move coverage. Apart from getting surprise kills on the pink blobs, which admittedly is a good niche, mixed Zard-Y doesn't really do anything the existing special set doesn't do.

    I'll add unpredictability to Overview
     
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  12. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    OK, made the changes. Would the QC people mind having a look please?
     
  13. Rohail

    Rohail Active Member

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    I agree with Finchinator in that Mixed Charizard-X needs to be moved to OO. There is nothing that Overheat deals with that a +1 Flare Blitz doesn't deal with. Even with physical walls, you don't get any more KOes:

    72 SpA Mega Charizard X Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 223-264 (58.3 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 202-238 (52.8 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    72 SpA Mega Charizard X Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 244-288 (58 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    +1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 252-297 (60 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    72 SpA Mega Charizard X Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 237-279 (66.9 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
    +1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 255-300 (72 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

    72 SpA Mega Charizard X Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 204-240 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 229-271 (58.1 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    While the Dragon Dance set gets the exact same coverage, but it can boost its power even more and also boost Speed so Zard isn't revenge killed. There is no reason I would use Mixed Zard-X over DD Zard-X, which is why I feel like it should be relegated to OO.

    I would like some QC opinions on this, so I'll tag @Epikhairz, @Finchinator, and @MewtwoHidden.

    Also, for the Mixed Zard-Y set, I would always use maximum Speed. 252 with a positive Speed nature is absolutely mandatory for all Zards to outspeed Genesect while tying with Manaphy, Mega Medicham, and Mega Gardevoir. Furthermore, the extra Special Attack EVs don't really gain that many more KOes iirc (I calced it on relevant stuff like Rotom-W and whatnot). If there is something that I'm missing, feel free to let me know. Also, even if you were to have a specific benchmark for Speed EVs, please make it relevant; Jolly Landorus-T do not exist unless they're running Scarf, which would outspeed Zard anyway.

    Anyway, please address these concerns @Dr. Doom, and I'll check back and give you a stamp :)
     
  14. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Mixed X set is in OO. Have changed EV spread on StallZard and Mixed Y.
     
  15. Rohail

    Rohail Active Member

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    Alright, I'll give this a full QC check now :P

    General
    Remove the mention of Mega Charizard-X's ability to become a wallbreaker.

    StallZard
    Change this set's EVs back to what it was before. When I said that it's mandatory for Zard to be max Speed, I was only talking about the offensive variants lol. Sorry for the confusion :x

    Mixed Attacker
    For the nature, have Naive > Hasty to take priority moves from Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, and Azumarill better. Also fix the last point about the EV spread to reflect the new EV spread.

    Synergy
    While this doesn't have its own section, I would recommend mentioning somewhere that Mega Charizard-Y loves Pursuit support, while every Charizard forme needs Defog/Rapid Spin support.

    Checks and Counters
    You still need to mention how AV Azumarill is one of the best hard checks to every Charizard variant except StallZard. More information can be found on post 9.

    Do all of this and you have my approval @Dr. Doom:

    QC Approved 1/3
     
  16. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    OK, MixZard now has a Naive nature, StallZard has the original spread. Incidentally, what specifically does that spread accomplish? Not criticising, but I need to put it in set comments. AV Azumarill has been added to C&C.
     
  17. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    QC Approved 2/3

    Well done, way to stick with it through various phases of rigorous editing - zard is the most important pokemon in OU when taking into consideration both forms
     
  18. MewtwoHidden

    MewtwoHidden My Hax Makes Me Famous

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    Good job on such a difficult Pokemon as Charizard!

    QC 3/3
     
  19. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Now written in full, awaiting Grammar Patrol.
     
  20. trc

    trc Active Member

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    hi so set order needs to be offensive dd x / zard y / bulkyzard x

    overview
    - this is mostly fluff and it hasnt even been corrected for some reason
    - dont mention a mixed set in the overview
    - faster pokemon example???

    offensive dd
    - slash adamant and explain why

    zard y
    - slash modest and explain why

    get rid of mixed, it isnt main set worthy. mention flare blitz in set details of zard y set.

    spdef sap sipper azu needs to be mentioned as a counter, it's much more reliable at checking both formes.

    specs latios is lol, dont mention it. regular latios is fine.
     
  21. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Last edited: May 14, 2014
  22. trc

    trc Active Member

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    Hey, for what it's worth, I kinda know what I'm talking about. I've been a QC member for OU for Smogon for some time, have written plenty of analyses, and been around and conversed with people known to be among the best competitive players on the internet. Rohail and Epikhairz I know personally, and can back me up.

    Mixed set is viable, so I will mention it. Faster Pokémon like Latios, Garchomp etc. I will mention them, that was the one good point you made.
    There is merit to running Flare Blitz, but it is often a terrible choice in practice:

    I believe the second set compromises Charizard-Y's sheer damage output in order to lure in and defeat two seldom seen Special walls - Chansey and Blissey. Even in the scenario that he does kill them with Flare Blitz, he also effectively kills himself, because Flare Blitz inflicts an enormous amount of recoil. As a result, we would like to see it removed unless anyone has a really good reason for keeping it.

    No. The power difference is often negligible, and it's better to tie with other base 100s
    Adamant nature is preferred, as there are only a few relevant Choice Scarf users (Excadrill, Landorus-T, Kyurem-B, Garchomp, etc) that can outrun and KO Charizard-X after a boost, and it appreciates the extra power to massacre through bulkier threats.

    No. Again, you gain no significant KOs and Charizard prefers to maximise its speed on offensive sets
    For the same reasons, the extra Speed isn't all useful, and you really appreciate the extra power to nail the Latis for more with Fire Blast on the switch-in.

    The mixed set is a great way of surprising Y's usual switch ins, namely Chansey and Blissey
    See above.

    spdef sap sipper azu needs to be mentioned as a counter, it's much more reliable at checking both formes.
    OK, you have either never played OU or are trolling. Huge Power is the only thing that makes Azumarill usable at all. Without it, it is way too weak to do anything.
    lol, "too weak to do anything". SpD Azu is a wall, it isn't meant to attack. Like I said, I know hat I'm talking about, and this is a set that has seen use in tournament play and has competitve merit. scald / knock off / protect / toxic counters both Zards at one time unlike any other Pokemon and solidly Toxic stalls Keldeo, DNite, etc.

    specs latios is lol, dont mention it. regular latios is fine.
    OK you really don't know what you're talking about. Choice Specs is commonly regarded as one of Latios's best sets.
    again lol, every halfway decent player knows specs latios is absolute shit, complete pursuit bait, loses all utility of LO, can't defog, can't recover, and has never been used in SPL or other high-level tournaments for these reasons.

    I also accidentally forgot to mention for you to add one of the most important sets, Bulky Will-o-wisp. Therefore, the order should be offensive dd / zard y / bulky dd / bulky wow. 248 HP / 148 SDef / 112 Spd outspeeds adamant gyara, takes hits excellently, and spreads burns, and is also a ridiculously common set in high-level play.
     
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  23. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    As a wall, Azumarill sucks. It has no reliable recovery, can't Taunt or phaze, and given that without Huge Power it has no offensive presence whatsoever there is nothing to prevent it becoming total set up fodder. As a physical wall, it's outclassed by Skarmory and Gliscor. Skarmory can set up Stealth Rock and Spikes, get rid of them with Defog, and has Taunt and Whirlwind to prevent it becoming set up fodder. Gliscor has an immunity to other status thanks to Poison Heal, it can use Knock Off to aid its team and it can even use Taunt, although it rarely has space for it. And both have reliable recovery. As a special wall Azumarill is outclassed by the pink blobs and specially defensive Heatran. The pink blobs can cure themselves of status just by switching out, and can support their teams with gigantic Wishes and Heal Bell. Heatran may not have reliable recovery, but it's immune to Sandstorm, Toxic and Burns, has Taunt and Roar to avoid becoming set up fodder, and it can spread burns and poison equally well due to Fire, Poison and Steel types rarely switching into it. Oh, and Azumarill's also outclassed by Mega Venusaur as a wall, since it removes Toxic Spikes just by switching in, is immune to Toxic and packs Sleep Powder.

    You say Specs Latios is a bad set, and yet you give no reasons why. According to the usage statistics, Choice Specs is currently Latios's 2nd most popular set (http://stats.pokemon-online.eu/XY OU/381.html), with over a quarter of Latioses using it (after Life Orb it's the most powerful item). Why would such a bad set be so popular?

    Finally, here are some damage calcs to show why it's pointless slashing Adamant/Modest nature on the Dragon Dance and Special Attacker sets:

    +1 Tough Claws Mega Charizard X's Flare Blitz on 252/252 + Def Gliscor: 66.9% - 78.8%
    +1 + Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X's Flare Blitz on 252/252+ Def Gliscor: 73.2% - 86.4%

    Charizard Y's Focus Blast on 4/0 Heatran in Sun: 89.2% - 105.3%
    + SAtk Charizard Y's Focus Blast on 4/0 Heatran in Sun: 89.2% - 105.3%

    What significant OHKO/2HKOs do you gain by running Adamant/Modest? None that I can see. And I did mention bulky Will-O-Wisp Mega Charizard.
     
  24. trc

    trc Active Member

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  25. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I tested out Bulky DD Charizard-X, and in the battles I used it in it just never did as well as normal DD Charizard X. I found it lacking in power before it got to +2, and being weak to common Ground moves makes getting to +2 pretty damn tough and Heatran and Azumarill could easily shut it down. Mega Charizard X is best used as an all out sweeper or burn spreader IMO. A bulky DD set can work, but it's just not as good as the other sets, hence it's in OO.

    As for using Azumarill as a wall, that's really a waste of its great offensive potential. And no, it doesn't wall Mega Charizard. Charizard X cleanly 3HKOs with a +1 Earthquake after Stealth Rock even if Azumarill's running 252/252 +Def, and it can't do shit back. StallZard can simply burn it, Roost off whatever pathetic damage it does and wait for it to die (unless it happens to be running Refresh). Charizard Y 3HKOs 252/252 +SDef Azumarill damn near every time after Stealth Rock, and again Azumarill can't do shit back since Waterfall and Scald are at best a 5HKO. And Charizard Y pretty much always runs Roost.

    +1 252 Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Azumarill: 136-161 (33.6 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Azumarill in Sun: 130-153 (32.1 - 37.8%) -- 96% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    Meanwhile...
    0 Atk Azumarill Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 60-72 (20.2 - 24.2%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
    0 Atk Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 51-61 (17.1 - 20.5%) -- possible 5HKO
    0 SpA Azumarill Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 66-78 (22.2 - 26.2%) -- 5% chance to 4HKO
    0 SpA Azumarill Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 50-60 (16.8 - 20.2%) -- possible 5HKO

    As for the argument of Jolly vs Adamant and Timid vs Modest, the extra speed is normally more helpful and Stealth Rock alone will often be enough to make up for the power difference. As a general rule, anything in the 100+ speed tier should always maximise speed if it's running an offensive set.
     
  26. Rohail

    Rohail Active Member

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    Okay, so @TRC is definitely not some random, he is a knowledgeable QC member on Smogon. I agree with most of his sentiments, but have my own comments to make:

    Sap Sipper Azumarill is really bad in the metagame outside of checking Dragonite and Mega Charizard-Y. It cannot beat Choice Specs/CM Keldeo or Mega Charizard-X one-on-one iirc though, as it gets 3HKOed by +1/Specs-boosted Secret Sword from Keldeo and is 2HKOed by +1 Flare Blitz from Mega Charizard-X, which gives it nowhere near enough time to effectively Toxic-stall these two, even with Protect imo. I could be wrong since I have only used SpD Azumarill a couple of times (and hated it every time x.x), but right now, I believe that SpD Azumarill is a horrible check to Zard-X and Keldeo and overall pretty bad in the current metagame. You can, however, give it a very small mention in C&C for being able to check Mega Charizard-Y very well.

    As for removing the mixed set, I personally think it should stay, but I don't mind if it gets moved to OO either. Mixed Zard-Y beats Chansey, and once it does so, it can blow past stall teams since they usually don't have anything else that wants to take a hit from it. Therefore, Mixed Zard-Y becomes an incredible stallbreaker, much better then its standard set because it can beat the only things that stand in its way on stall teams. However, Mixed Zard-Y fares much worse against offense then its all-out special counterpart, and since offense is more common then stall, I can see a reason for it being moved to OO. I'll leave it up to Dr. Doom/other QCs to decide on this matter though. Also, the recoil isn't too much of an issue since Zard has Roost and many opportunities to use it too imo.

    I don't really mind if Modest / Adamant get slashed despite me being against it in the past. This is mainly due to some teams not caring about the Speed or just really needing the outright power the other natures bring, as mentioned by TRC. I also don't mind the removal of Specs Latios from C&C since it is admittedly pretty bad.

    Finally, Finch and I were talking and we both agreed that a bulky dd Zard-X set deserves to be a main set. It is really good against stall, has a much easier time setting up, and uses its excellent typing to its advantage much better than offensive Zard-X. It would look something like this:

    Charizard @ Charizardite-X
    Trait: Blaze --> Tough Claws
    EVs: 136 HP / 252 Atk / 120 Spe
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SpA)
    - Dragon Dance
    - Dragon Claw / Flare Blitz
    - Flare Blitz / Earthquake
    - Roost

    The Speed EVs let you outspeed everything up to Jolly Mega Tyranitar and Jolly Bisharp, while the rest is thrown into Attack and bulk. Move choices are also pretty simple; DD and Roost is necessary for setting up and longevity, while the two attacking moves are STABs, and either of the STABs can be switched out for Earthquake to hit Heatran.

    So those were all my concerns regarding TRC's comments, tagging @Dr. Doom so he sees this :)
     
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  27. trc

    trc Active Member

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    For what it's worth, SpD Azumarill is very uncommon and often used for surprise value; I would not recommend it having a set on the Azumarill analysis at all. That being said, it's only worth mentioning for being possibly the most reliable Zard check there is, beating both in common situations which I can outline if you want.

    I would prefer the mixed set being mentioned in the Set Details of the Zard Y set then in OO or a standalone set, but I can concede to either depending on the opinion of the QC team.
     
  28. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    After some more testing I can conclude that bulky Dragon Dance really doesn't deserve its own set. Dragonite can use Leftovers, has Multiscale, and is immune to both forms of Spikes. Not a bad set, and can still work, but I really don't think it needs a place above OO.
     
  29. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Delta Stream

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    Bulky DD ZardX has better typing than DDnite, as well as not having its ability be worthless after taking SR damage. Agreeing that it should be its own set
     
  30. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Not really. Dragonite has an immunity, Charizard-X doesn't. Dragonite can simply Roost off the Stealth Rock damage. On paper it seems like a good set, but in practice it's mediocre.
     
  31. trc

    trc Active Member

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    Both of those reasons aren't really logical at all. I've used the Bulky Dragon Dance set a lot, and already the majority of QC is pressing for its inclusion, so I would like it to be added. I would also like you to implement the changes I suggested above, as opposed to ignoring them without reason.
     
  32. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Fine I'll add in the bulky DD set. I've mentioned Adamant and Modest natures in Set Comments and removed mention of Specs Latios (apparently a Pokémon that 2HKOs everything in OU bar Ferrothorn is bad but whatever).
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2014
  33. Nog

    Nog Fuck Curselax

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    You should be running special defense on the Will-o-Wisp zard, not defense. You have a fast burn to cripple physical attackers like Azumarill or Mega Mawile so adding in def EVs is a bit redundant. Adding in special defense EVs allows you to better handle Pokemon like Greninja or Thundurus, while adding some residual damage to them if they swap in and just Roost stalling them until you can safely swap out to a check. Mega Charizard X also has a lower special defense stat than defense and the added EVs only benefit him. Nature should be Adamant to make sure you still do some damage as jolly is pretty useless on a zard meant to tank a couple hits. Unless 40 speed jolly allows you to cripple something relevant, it should be changed to addy.
     
  34. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    OK, done.
     
  35. RedJoker25

    RedJoker25 Resident Lurker Server Moderator Article Contributor Server Moderator Article Contributor

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    GRAMMAR CHECK (@Samphire)
    Draft:
    Overview

    Charizard hasn't been relevant in OU for a long time, so why is it one of the most popular Pokémon in the tier? In Generation 6, Game Freak gave it not one, but two extremely potent Mega Evolutions. This gives Charizard a note of unpredictability, since the two play in significantly different ways. X is a brutal physical sweeper, with its 130 base Attack and Tough Claws effectively giving it a free Life Orb on all moves that make contact. Y is a potent special wall breaker, with an astonishing 159 base Special Attack and Drought to make it even more powerful. That's not all they can do though: X can run a support set to cripple its usual switch-ins, while Y can use a mixed set to make Chansey and Blissey regret trying to wall it. X's new found Fire / Dragon typing is great: while it forfeits its immunity to Ground-type moves, it is one of only three Dragon-types neutral to Ice and Fairy moves and one of only two Fire-types neutral to Water moves.

    Unfortunately, Charizard still has flaws. While 100 base Speed is solid, quite a few Pokémon are faster, such as Garchomp, Latios and Keldeo. Rapid Spin and/or Defog support is absolutely essential, since Charizard loses 50% of its HP to Stealth Rock before Mega Evolving. X still needs the support after Mega Evolving since it's now susceptible to all hazards. Whether you need a strong sweeper or a strong wall breaker, Mega Charizard is here to help.

    Dragon Dance

    Charizard @ Charizardite X
    Trait: Blaze (Tough Claws)
    Nature: Jolly (+Spd -SAtk)
    EV: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Dragon Dance
    Flare Blitz / Fire Punch
    Dragon Claw / Outrage
    Earthquake / Roost

    Say hello to one of OU's best physical sweepers. After using Dragon Dance, Charizard has great Attack and outruns everything without a Choice Scarf bar Deoxys-S. As for STAB moves, Flare Blitz has incredible power with Tough Claws. If you find the recoil detrimental, there's always Fire Punch. Tough Claws gives it adequate power. Dragon Claw can be your safe STAB move if you chose Flare Blitz. Outrage is much more powerful, but make sure the opponent's Steel- and Fairy-types are down before clicking it. It's a good idea to use one safe STAB and one powerful one, since you then have the best of both worlds. Of course, you could always use both powerful ones. Passing up both is not recommended, as power is Mega Charizard X's biggest niche over Dragonite. Earthquake rounds out the coverage, scoring a guaranteed OHKO on Heatran as well as OHKOing Tyranitar at +1 without being locked into Outrage. Roost can be used to heal Mega Charizard X and works well with its good bulk, but Heatran and Azumarill will wall you without Earthquake, so make sure you have a plan for them. The EVs simply maximise Speed and power.

    You could also run an Adamant nature, but normally, the extra Speed is more helpful and Stealth Rock usually makes up the difference in damage anyway.

    Bulky Dragon Dance

    Charizard @ Charizardite X
    Triat: Blaze (Tough Claws)
    Adamant Nature (+Atk -SAtk)
    EV: 248 HP / 156 Atk / 104 Spd
    Dragon Dance
    Fire Punch
    Dragon Claw
    Roost

    Instead of setting up once and tearing the opponent's team to shreds, this set trades firepower for bulk, so while it is weaker, it is also harder to revenge kill. Dragon Dance improves Charizard's Speed and power. Fire Punch and Dragon Claw get STAB and are boosted to appreciable strength by Tough Claws. Roost keeps Charizard alive and healthy longer.

    The EVs allow Charizard to outrun maximum Speed Adamant Gyarados before boosting. 248 HP EVs give it great overall bulk while still keeping its HP stat odd. The rest is placed in Attack to improve power.

    Special Attacker

    Charizard @ Charizardite Y
    Trait: Blaze (Drought)
    Timid Nature (+Spd -Atk)
    EV: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Fire Blast
    Focus Blast
    Solar Beam
    Roost

    An extremely simple set to use: fire off powerful attacks, heal when you get the chance, and fire off some more. Fire Blast gets STAB and hits for a staggering 247 power in Sun. Focus Blast 2HKOes any Heatran and OHKOes most Tyranitar. Solar Beam blows most bulky Water-types to hell in Sun, cleanly OHKOing physically defensive Rotom-W after Stealth Rock. Roost keeps Charizard healthy, enabling it to do damage throughout the match. The EVs maximise Speed and power.

    You could also run a Modest nature, but again, the extra Speed is normally more helpful. Stealth Rock is enough to bridge the power gap.

    StallZard

    Charizard @ Charizardite-X
    Trait: Blaze (Tough Claws)
    Adamant Nature (+Atk -SAtk) / Careful Nature (+SDef -SAtk)
    EV: EVs: 248 HP / 156 Def / 104 Spd
    Will-O-Wisp
    Roost
    Dragon Claw
    Fire Punch

    While this set seems bizarre at first glance, it actually makes sense once you look outside the box. Most of Mega Charizard X's switch-ins (Landorus-T, Azumarill) will absolutely hate a burn, and due to its typing, Fire-types pretty much never switch in. Will-O-Wisp is the crux of this set and renders most physical attackers dead weight. Dragon Claw serves as the main STAB move - even with no investment, it hits hard thanks to Tough Claws and 130 base Attack. Fire Punch also gets STAB and the Tough Claws boost. The combination is only resisted by Heatran and Azumarill in OU.

    The EVs maximise overall bulk while allowing Charizard to outrun 252 Speed Adamant Gyarados and burn it before it can attack. The rest is placed in Special Defence to give it more balanced bulk. Choose the nature depending on whether you prefer power or bulk.

    Mixed Attacker

    Charizard @ Charizardite-Y
    Naive Nature (+Spd -Def)
    Trait: Blaze (Drought)
    EV: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Flare Blitz
    Earthquake
    Solar Beam
    Roost

    Imagine if you didn't have to worry about Chansey and Blissey walling you. Well stop imagining, because this set does just that! Working on surprise factor, this is designed to burn huge holes in the opponent's team so that something else can pick up the pieces. Flare Blitz gets STAB and always 2HKOes Chansey in sun. Earthquake OHKOes Heatran and 2HKOes Tyranitar. Solar Beam smashes the bulky Water- and Rock-types that resist Flare Blitz. Roost keeps Charizard healthy and is especially helpful with Flare Blitz's recoil. EVs maximise Speed and Attack due to this set's physical bias. The remainder is in Special Attack to power up Solar Beam.

    Other Options

    Mega Charizard Y can sweep with Tailwind or Flame Charge, but it's generally better off as an all-out attacker. Mega Charizard X can also run a Mixed Attacking set, but other than 2HKOing most walls without recoil or being locked in a move it doesn't accomplish much the standard Dragon Dance set doesn't. Air Slash and Dragon Pulse can be used on Mega Charizard Y's special attacker set, but Focus Blast and Solar Beam offer better coverage while Roost's recovery greatly improves its lifespan, allowing it to do more damage throughout the match.

    Checks and Counters

    The unpredictability of Mega Charizard makes it hard to directly counter, although you can get a good idea of which one it is by looking at its teammates. If it's paired with strong wall breakers, then there's a good chance it's Mega Charizard X. If it's paired with good sweepers, chances are it's Mega Charizard Y. Assault Vest Azumarill is a great check to both, as it's able to switch in on Mega Charizard X if unboosted and 2HKO with Play Rough after factoring in Flare Blitz's recoil. Meanwhile, Mega Charizard Y's Solar Beam never OHKOes, Fire Blast and Focus Blast do minimal damage, and Azumarill can 2HKO with Waterfall and Aqua Jet. However, a burn from Stallzard will render Azumarill useless.

    Stealth Rock is a good, general way of keeping Charizard in check, since it takes 50% damage before Mega Evolving, which puts it into easy KO range from most strong attackers.

    Defensive Landorus-T can survive most attacks from Mega Charizard X and (with a little prior damage) OHKO with Earthquake, although it is crippled by a burn. Some lower tier Pokémon check Mega Charizard X well - if it lacks Outrage, Unaware Quagsire and tank Rhyperior can both switch in with little chance of being 2HKOed and then take Mega Charizard X down with a STAB Earthquake.

    Dragon-types in general are good at dealing with Mega Charizard Y. Latios and Garchomp can switch in on anything it does, outrun, and OHKO with Draco Meteor and Stone Edge respectively. Dragonite also takes little damage from any of its moves while 2HKOing with Dragon Claw and Extreme Speed. Chansey and Blissey wall special Mega Charizard Y while crippling it with status, but they lose to the mixed set.

    Changes:
    Overview

    Charizard hasn't been relevant in OU for a long time. So how come, so why is it's one of the most popular Pokémon in the tier? Well, iIn Generation 6, Game Freak gave it not one, but 2two extremely potent mMega eEvolutions. This gives Charizard a note of unpredictability, since the 2two play verin significantly differently ways. X is a brutal physical sweeper, with its 130 base Attack and Tough Claws giving it effectively giving it a free Life Orb on all moves that make contact. Y is a very potent special wall breaker, with an astonishing 159 base sSpecial aAttack and Drought to make it even more powerful. Don't think tThat's not all they can do though: X can also run a good support set to cripple its usual switch -ins, while Y can use a mixed set to make Chansey and Blissey regret trying to wall it with a Mixed set. X's new found Fire / Dragon typing is great: while it does forfeits its immunity to Ground immunity-type moves, it is one of only 3three Dragon -types neutral to Ice and Fairy moves, and one of only 2two Fire -types neutral to Water moves.

    Unfortunately though, Charizard still has its flaws. While 100 base Speed is solid, there are quite a few Pokémon that are faster like, such as Garchomp, Latios and Keldeo. Rapid Spin and/or Defog support is absolutely essential, since before Mega Evolving Charizard loses 50% of its HP to Stealth Rock before Mega Evolving. X still needs ithe support after mMega eEvolving, since it's now weaksusceptible to all hazards. Whether you need a strong sweeper or a strong wall breaker, Mega Charizard is here to help you.

    Dragon Dance

    Charizard @ Charizardite X
    Trait: Blaze (Tough Claws)
    Nature: Jolly (+Spd -SAtk)
    EV: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Dragon Dance
    Flare Blitz / Fire Punch
    Dragon Claw / Outrage
    Earthquake / Roost

    Say hello to one of OU's best physical sweepers. After using Dragon Dance, Charizard has great aAttack and outruns everything without a Choice Scarf bar Deoxys-S. As for STAB moves, Flare Blitz has incredible power with Tough Claws, but i. If you find the recoil detrimental, there's always Fire Punch. Tough Claws gives it adequate power. Dragon Claw can be your safe STAB move if you chose Flare Blitz. Outrage is much more powerful, but make sure the opponent's Steel- and Fairy -types are down before clicking it. It's a good idea to use one safe STAB and one powerful one, since you then have the best of both worlds. Of course, you could always use both powerful ones. Passing up both is not recommended at all, as power is Mega Charizard- X's biggest niche over Dragonite. Earthquake rounds out the coverage, scoring a guaranteed OHKO on Heatran as well as OHKOing Tyranitar at +1 without havbeing to be locked into Outrage. Roost can be used to heal Mega Charizard-X, X and works well with its good bulk., but Heatran and Azumarill will wall you without Earthquake however, so make sure you have a plan for them. The EVs simply maximise sSpeed and power.

    You could also run an Adamant nature, but normally, the extra sSpeed is more helpful and Stealth Rock usually makes up the difference in damage anyway.

    Bulky Dragon Dance

    Charizard @ Charizardite X
    Triat: Blaze (Tough Claws)
    Adamant Nature (+Atk -SAtk)
    EV: 248 HP / 156 Atk / 104 Spd
    Dragon Dance
    Fire Punch
    Dragon Claw
    Roost

    Instead of setting up once and tearing the opponent's team to shreds, this set trades firepower for bulk, so while it has lesis poweaker, it is also harder to revenge kill. Dragon Dance improves Charizard's Speed and Ppower. Fire Punch and Dragon Claw get STAB and are boosted to appreciable strength by Tough Claws. Roost keeps Charizard alive and healthy for longer.

    The EVs allow Charizard to outrun max simum Speed Adamant Gyarados before boosting. 248 HP EVs give it great overall bulk while still keeping its HP stat odd. The rest is placed in Attack to improve power.

    Special Attacker

    Charizard @ Charizardite Y
    Trait: Blaze (Drought)
    Timid Nature (+Spd -Atk)
    EV: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Fire Blast
    Focus Blast
    Solar Beam
    Roost

    An extremely simple set to use: fire off powerful attacks, heal when you get the chance, and fire off some more. Fire Blast gets STAB, and hits for a staggering 247 power in Sun. Focus Blast 2HKOes any Heatran and OHKOes most Tyranitar. Solar Beam blows most bulky Water -types to hell in Sun, cleanly OHKOing physically defensive Rotom-W after Stealth Rock. Roost keeps Charizard healthy, enabling it to do damage throughout the match. The EVs maximise sSpeed and power.

    You could also run a Modest nature, but again, the extra sSpeed is normally more helpful and. Stealth Rock will beis enough to bridge the power gap.

    StallZard

    Charizard @ Charizardite-X
    Trait: Blaze (Tough Claws)
    Adamant Nature (+Atk -SAtk) / Careful Nature (+SDef -SAtk)
    EV: EVs: 248 HP / 156 Def / 104 Spd
    Will-O-Wisp
    Roost
    Dragon Claw
    Fire Punch

    While this set seems bizarre at first glance, it actually makes sense once you look outside the box it actually makes a lot of sense. Most of Mega Charizard- X's switch -ins (Landorus-T, Azumarill) will absolutely hate a burn, and due to its typing, Fire -types pretty much never switch in. Will-O-Wisp is the crux of this set, and renders most physical attackers dead weight. Dragon Claw serves as the main STAB move - even with no investment, it still hits pretty hard thanks to Tough Claws and 130 base Attack
    . Fire Punch also gets the STAB and the Tough Claws boost. The combination is only resisted by Heatran and Azumarill in OU.

    The EVs maximise overall bulk while allowing Charizard to outrun 252 Speed Adamant Gyarados and burn it before it can attack. The rest is placed in Special Defence to give it more balanced bulk. Choose the nature depending on whether you prefer power or bulk.

    Mixed Attacker

    Charizard @ Charizardite-Y
    Naive Nature (+Spd -Def)
    Trait: Blaze (Drought)
    EV: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Flare Blitz
    Earthquake
    Solar Beam
    Roost

    Imagine if you didn't have to worry about Chansey and Blissey walling you. Well stop imagining, because this set does just that! Working on surprise factor, this is designed to burn huge holes in the opponent's team so that something else can pick up the pieces. Flare Blitz gets STAB and in Sun always 2HKOes Chansey in sun. Earthquake OHKOes Heatran and 2HKOes Tyranitar. Solar Beam smashes the bulky Water- and Rock -types that resist Flare Blitz. Roost keeps Charizard healthy, and is especially helpful with Flare Blitz's recoil. EVs maximise sSpeed and physical aAttack due to this set's physical bias. The remainder is in sSpecial aAttack to juicepower up Solar Beam.

    Other Options

    Mega Charizard- Y can sweep with Tailwind or Flame Charge, but it's generally better off used as an all -out attacker. Mega Charizard- X can also run a Mixed Attacking set, but other than 2HKOing most walls without recoil or being locked in a move it doesn't really accomplish much the standard Dragon Dance set doesn't. Air Slash and Dragon Pulse can be used on Mega Charizard- Y's special attacker set, but Focus Blast and Solar Beam offer better coverage while Roost's recovery greatly improves its lifespan, allowing it to do more damage throughout the match.

    Checks and Counters

    The unpredictability of mMega Charizard makes it very hard to directly counter, although you can get a good idea of which one it is by looking at its teammates. If it's paired with strong wall breakers, then there's a good chance it's Mega Charizard-X; i X. If it's paired with good sweepers, chances are it's Mega Charizard- Y. Assault Vest Azumarill is a great check to both formes, as it's able to switch in on Mega Charizard- X if unboosted and 2HKO with Play Rough after factoring in Flare Blitz's recoil. Meanwhile, Mega Charizard Y's Solar Beam never OHKOs and it can 2HKO with Waterfall + Aqua Jet andes, Fire Blast and Focus Blast will do minimal damage, and Azumarill can 2HKO with Waterfall and Aqua Jet. However, a burn from Stallzard will render itAzumarill useless.

    Stealth Rock ins a good, general is a good way of keeping Charizard in check, since before mega evolving it takes a whopping 50% damage before Mega Evolving, which puts it into easy KO range from most strong attackers.

    Defensive Landorus-T can survive most attacks from Mega Charizard X and (with a little prior damage) OHKO with Earthquake, although it is crippled by Ba burns. Some lower tier Pokémon check Mega Charizard-X very X well - if it lacks Outrage, Unaware Quagsire and tank Rhyperior can both switch in with little chance of being 2HKOed and then take Mega Charizard- X down with theira STAB Earthquakes.

    Dragon -types in general are good at dealing with Mega Charzizard- Y. Latios and Garchomp can switch in on anything it does, outrun, and OHKO with Draco Meteor and Stone Edge respectively. Dragonite also takes little damage from any of its moves, while 2HKOing with Dragon Claw and Extreme Speed. Chansey and Blissey wall special Mega Charizard-Y with their stubby little hands behind their backs Y while they can crippleing it with status, but willthey lose to the mixed set.
     
  36. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Made the suggested changes with a few minor modifications. I made Careful the only nature listed on StallZard, since you that set's supposed to play defensively there's no point running an attack boosting nature. I also removed mentions of Deoxys-S since it's now been banned (and rightly so).
     
  37. Samphire

    Samphire Too much hard work!

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    Happy to mark this as complete!
     
  38. Fuzzysqurl

    Fuzzysqurl baa baa mareep I do what I want Server Owner Developer I do what I want Server Owner Developer

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    This is now on the Wiki....
    Though, you should really format your sets a little better. You can't import into the client with your sets, which means the wiki template won't parse it correctly either.

    The sets were inconsistent as well, you put Charizardite-X on some, but Charizardite X on others.

    In addition, there was a typo in your second set (Triat instead of Trait)

    http://wiki.pokemon-online.eu/page/Charizard#tab=XY_OU
     
    ZoroDark likes this.
  39. Samphire

    Samphire Too much hard work!

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    If this is the case with importables, @Xdevo, can you make sure your QC fix this or ask for importables to be edited correctly in future? I don't know how they should look as I mainly just look at the main bulk of text!
     
  40. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I was on Serebii the other day looking at their Pokémon of the week section, and they had an interesting set listed for Charizard X. This was it:

    Charizard @ Charizardite X
    Trait: Blaze
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk -SAtk)
    Swords Dance
    Tailwind
    Dragon Claw
    Flare Blitz / Fire Punch

    It's a double dance set in the mould of Groudon, Landorus-T and Terrakion. I think it looks really interesting, and I think it's certainly worth adding to OO. I'm also considering listing it as a main set, but I'm going to test it out later. I'm also considering moving mixed Zard Y to OO, since apart from smashing the pink blobs there's not much it accomplishes that regular Charizard Y doesn't. Thoughts?