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Suspect Discussion: Haxorus (Banned)

Discussion in 'Gen 6 LU' started by Xdevo, Mar 14, 2014.

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  1. Xdevo

    Xdevo The bear was upon Tom Tiering Administrator Tour Director Tiering Administrator Tour Director

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    [​IMG]


    Discuss the possibility of banning Haxorus from the XY LU metagame.

    Post intelligently based off of experience in the tier. Posts based off theorymon risk forum infractions.

    Attempt to find the checks and counters (or lack thereof) for Haxorus well as its impact and power in the metagame. Do not simply say "it's broken" or "it's not broken". Back up your arguments on why you think it should be banned or not.

    If a consensus is reached, the result will likely be implemented in the metagame.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2014
  2. DSM01

    DSM01 Jammin' out

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    Despite everyone initially calling for Haxorus's head, the discussion seems to have died down a bit in light of Gothitelle and Hawlucha. In my experience I also seemed to encounter less of Haxorus on the ladder despite it being #2 in ranked usage (though this could partially be due to extremely high early usage at the tier's inception). The most common boosting move is Dragon Dance at 57.00%, with Swords Dance showing little usage at 8.02%. The most common item is Lum Berry at 40.49% followed by Choice Band at 25.53%, with Life Orb only getting 8.30% usage. Based on this I think it's safe to discuss Haxorus with the assumption that it's at +1 Attack (either Choice Band or 1 DD + Lum) and not something uncommon like +2 Attack and Life Orb. While it can run stronger sets, it usually doesn't and with options like Swords Dance and Life Orb getting only 8% usage they could almost be called obscure sets.

    Anyway, I regularly use Forretress and Haxorus hasn't been too much of an issue. Gyro Ball deals 37-44.2% (3HKO) to 4/0 Haxorus while Haxorus's +1 Earthquake only does 28.8 - 33.8% (4HKO) to 252/252+ Forretress. If Haxorus is Banded it's easy to switch to a Ground immunity once they're locked into EQ and if they're DD it means you got a free switch in. Having a Steel type in general means that Banded Haxorus won't Outrage early game and makes it much easier to play around and wear down. I can't comment on how offense deals with Haxorus but from a stall perspective Haxorus isn't an issue unless it's SD (in which case it gets beat up by all the offensive mons in the tier). Double Dance is not an option because it needs Poison Jab to hit Florges, which always leaves Haxorus beaten by offense or stall. Right now I'm leaning towards no ban but I definitely need to play more LU before making any final decisions.
     
  3. Edna

    Edna I'm like Cinderella with an umbrella Forum Moderator Article Contributor Forum Moderator Article Contributor

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    Haxorus is sure one of the best ( if not the best ) wallbreaker of the LU tier.
    Choice Scarf/Banded/SD/Double dance are the most viable sets for the moment.

    I don't think it's broken , even in HO teams ( even though I havn't seen many of them yet ) ,
    it packs good counters, , namely Cloyster, Foretress, Cresselia ( that thing should be more used) , Rhyperior.
    However, they're not used a lot for the moment, LU was born like 2 weaks ago, people need more time to really learn the tier.

    I personaly feel it should stay LU, and let the time decide if it's really broken or not .
     
  4. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    I suggest playing a game without Forretress, then deciding on whether or not you think Haxorus should be banned. Forrestress is the only thing in this tier that can attempt to handle Haxorus. Bronzong is the only other viable Steel type in this tier and that gets annihilated by EQ. +1 EQ 2HKOes anything that resists/is immune to Outrage like physdef Florges, Escavalier, Steelix, Registeel etc. Outrage pretty much cremates everything else in the tier.

    --252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 294-346 (55 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    --252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Entei: 406-478 (109.1 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    --252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 231-273 (57.1 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    --252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rhyperior: 211-250 (48.6 - 57.6%) -- 51.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    --252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 450-529 (139.7 - 164.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    --252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 180-212 (50 - 58.8%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    I think it's already been established before that Forre is pretty much the only thing in the tier that can handle Haxorus. Play a few games without it, then make up your mind. Nothing else in this tier can handle this monstrosity, ban.

    --252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 211-249 (87.1 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
    --252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 225-265 (50.6 - 59.6%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    --252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rhyperior: 211-250 (48.6 - 57.6%) -- 51.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    These are your ideas of what a counter is? Nothing is this tier except physdef Forre can handle its Outrage/EQ combination.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2014
  5. Xdevo

    Xdevo The bear was upon Tom Tiering Administrator Tour Director Tiering Administrator Tour Director

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    Forretress is the only one of those I would actually consider a "counter" to Haxorus

    Defensive Cloyster is 2HKO'd with SR up, this is without a Choice Band or any sort of a boost.
    252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cloyster: 111-132 (36.6 - 43.5%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Cresselia can't OHKO it and is 2HKO'd after DD or by a CB set.
    +1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 225-265 (50.6 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    Standard Rhyperior is 2HKO'd by unboosted Adamant Earthquake.
    252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rhyperior: 210-248 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
     
  6. DSM01

    DSM01 Jammin' out

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    Right after I posted I remembered that the only reason I use Forry is for Haxorus (and TSpikes). As we've seen with Garchomp in BW1, even if something does have one hard counter (Skarmory) it can still be broken if absolutely nothing else can deal with it.
     
  7. ZodiaK

    ZodiaK Get the fuck off my porch

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    well.. there are somewhat counters and checks to haxo, i never had a huge issue with it, sure it's a threat though. Forry, Durant, Escav even stuff like registeel or steelix could be used. Also mons with priority such as abomasnow, entei, honch, a bulky unburden activating hawlucha, donphan, suicune, cloyster, even def tanks with regen to be used as a pivo such as tangrowth or alomomola can status or leech then switch out, although haxo generally carries a lum berry since entei exists.
     
  8. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    Time to post again after a couple week dry-spell of my usual suspect posting activity, hope my presence doesn't annoy you like it does to most ^_^

    Haxorus is a physically offensive behemoth with a massive attack stat and multiple threatening sets, ranging from Dragon Dance to Choice Banded. In the LU metagame, there is a shortage of counters / checks to it due to the lack of physically bulky steels / fairies, making Haxorus able to reign free with minimal downside. I guess I'll go into depth on the two sets and then the short-list of checks it has.

    The Dragon Dance set is the most common and arguably best set. With Dragon Dance, Haxorus is able to hit 483 speed after one boost (assuming it has a Jolly nature, which is preferred with the current spam of pokemon in the speed tier around where Haxorus is - Adamant hits 439). In addition, it hits upwards of 600 attack after one boost. Now, these numbers might sound large, but let's put them into perspective and test how they do against the best physical walls / potential checks you'll be seeing in LU.

    +1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Escavalier: 172-203 (50 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Outrage is also a gauranteed 2hko if rocks are up, but otherwise only has about a 25% chance of 2hkoing)

    You can draw the conclusion that Haxorus is able to break through Escavlier unless it goes out of its way to run defense, which hardly anyone does, thus making it unable to reliably check Haxorus - p.s: Escavlier isn't OHKOing Haxorus with Megahorn, either, unless hazards and/or Swarm range

    +1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 164-193 (45.5 - 53.6%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery - with Protect then being accounted for, it is a 3hko unless rocks and spikes are up in a majority of situations, with only rocks it is usually a 3hko after recovery's taken into consideration - However, according to usage stats (which I'll reference, but with minimal emphasis conveyed upon them), Florges is running SDef over 2/3 of the time and Haxorus is running Poison Jab about 2/3 (63.15%) of the time, so...
    +1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 262-310 (72.7 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery - not looking so good for the flower
    +1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Florges: 390-460 (108.3 - 127.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO - even worse
    +1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Florges: 243-287 (67.5 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery - Welp.

    Overall, this shows that Physically Defensive Florges is a situational check to some DD Haxorus, but not the most common variant, nor if a fair amount of residual damage has occured / Florges is switching in after tanking attacks previously. The nature of Florges is to be a team supporter, so it'll be tanking hits left and right, especially from special attackers that it enjoys sponging the hits of, so furthermore Florges isn't even a quality check to DD Haxorus (in like three quarters of relevant situations), meaning that the premier Fairy of the tier (sitting at #10 in the usage stats) isn't even an answer.

    +1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 102-120 (28.8 - 33.8%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery - I'll be brief on this, rip Haxorus.

    Yep, we've found one universal, consistent check. Physically Defensive Forretress sits atop the list of /answers/ to Haxorus. Gyro Ball is able to 2hko Haxorus at +1 speed, while Haxorus isn't able to 2hko Physially Defensive Forretress. In regards to TauntDD Haxorus, it just means Forretress cannot set up rocks / spikes on you, it'll still get 2hko'd by Gyro. In regards to SDef Forretress, which is the lesser common of the two Forre variants, Haxorus still never 2hkos after rocks / lefties unless adamant, which has under an under 20% chance of doing so (while adamant 3hkos vs Phys Def Forre, too). Problem with Forretress is: all game it is dealing with hazard control, being a typical, expandable bulky steel type in a tier deprived of them, and it is weak to basically every special attacker that is common in the metagame, making using it less appealing. However, it is still sitting at #9 in usage, at just below 10%, making it easily qualifying for a relevant discussion topic in regards to Haxorus checks.

    +1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 204-241 (53.1 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    To be brief, Donphan isn't a check to Haxorus, even if physically defensive. EQ + Ice Shard never kills from this variant while Haxorus will always 2hko.

    So, it's getting late and I have been procrastinating for three hours between the last time I was working on this post, so I'll be really brief and avoid detail / specific calcs, but feel free to use your own calculations. Haxorus is also checked by: Defensive Granbull (not ultra common and really only niche is for pokemon like Haxorus), Defensive Steelix (weak check, uncommon, and inconsistent), and CB Durant (if it can hit (80% chance) and KO (81% chance) Haxorus, then Haxorus needs +2 just to have a chance to OHKO w/ Rocks, missing out on that OHKO without rocks 100% of the time, making it very weak and inconsistent as a check, but still a check, imo) - yeah, I'm missing a few (especially situational ones, like Aromatirarse, but with the DD three attacks set, it has less than three consistent checks and later in games, it has a path to sweep so frequently (decent bulk, good typing, etc.) that lets Haxorus break the tier with this DD set, in my opinion.

    The Choice Banded Set hits like a truck and is able to have the power of a DD boost without setting up, but will not gain the speed, nor the ability to switch moves, as it is locked in. Essentially, you can 'play around' Haxorus, but that brings us to the universally moot point of prediction, which is (and always will be) a two-way street (not totally invalidating the point, as you can deal with Haxorus at times, but still making it an inconsistent reasoning). The same counters as the last set arguably all apply, but they have to be more wary if they're on the edge of being 2hko'd as they'll still be, only they might not anticipate it on the switch-in as it's CB with power already, not DD, letting you switch in on it. Overall, this set isn't as bad as you can bring in the revenge killing factor (eh), the predictability because it locks in, and some of the normal foes to Haxorus that keep it in 'check', so this doesn't really add on too much to Haxorus' case, but the DD set is really overwhelming.

    TL;DR: Ban Haxorus, my reasoning is probably flawed and too reliant on the calcs earlier in my post, but the point still stands that DD Haxorus is a monster and it's overall a broken pokemon in the LU metagame.
     
  9. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    No one has even mentioned its number 1 counter yet. The Table.

    252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 163-193 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Just eatin that up for breakfast whilst easily ohkoing in return.

    4 Atk Avalugg Avalanche vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 324-384 (107.2 - 127.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    It can't kill any of the popular Fairies at +1 with Poison Jab whilst getting ohkod in return by Moonblast/Play Rough, though it can 2HKO Florges on the switch with unboosted Poison Jabs. In practice I'd say easily the most threatening set i've seen is Choice Scarf, since Offensive teams are quite popular and the only thing that outspeeds that can ohko it is Scarf Fygon. Idk I feel like the fact that Fairies exist now makes it not so hard to deal with, If you can force it to lock itself in to Outrage, which is quite easy to do with basically any Flying type, then you can revenge kill it with any Fairy.

    Idk maybe I have a skewed view because I've not really ran a team without a Fairy and/or a lot of Priority, but there seems to be a few options to beat it, Forre, Avalugg, Fairies. But I think I'll abstain from saying too much, as I don't have enough experience.
     
  10. Yusuke

    Yusuke Banned

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    252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 163-193 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    haxorous is too strong for the tier. hell, scarfed haxo rips through standard offense and hyper offense.

    forretress may be the only counter but it isnt a very good poke in this tier since so many things can deal with it (Raikou, Entei, Houndoom, Escav, Ampharos, Suicune) and there are many more. so i think running forre can slow down your team more than help you

    I say BAN.
     
  11. Supremacy

    Supremacy New Member

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    im agreeing with you on this. haxorous' aptitude in the tier is out of balance and destroys pretty much everything. i say its one and only flaw its that its frail but you can just switch out which makes it even more annoying to go against, because a good player with good prediction would save haxorous until your one check is out, and then bam, it wins. im for BAN:wink:
     
  12. C AllStar

    C AllStar Member

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    Another set not really mentioned is SD. This set basically makes stall totally unviable and even so called 'counters' fail.

    Cresselia:
    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 235-278 (52.9 - 62.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 352-417 (79.2 - 93.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    4 SpA Cresselia Ice Beam vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 138-164 (45.6 - 54.3%) -- 51.6% chance to 2HKO

    Granbull:
    +1 252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 322-380 (83.8 - 98.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Florges:
    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 455-536 (126.3 - 148.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Forretress:
    2 252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 177-208 (50 - 58.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    0 Atk Forretress Gyro Ball (105 BP) vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 114-135 (37.7 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    On my stall team in LU now, I am forced to run shit sets like physically defensive Rhyperior with Avalanche (with Shed Shell wheb gothy is still here) and keep it at full health in all costs. Haxorus is overcentralizing and completely destroys stall as a playstyle. It is without a doubt broken. BAN plz.
     
  13. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    Not only stall, it destroys every playstyle in the tier. Stall just has it the worst, what else is new. After 1 DD it reaches a very solid 483 speed and a scary 589 in attack, which means the only Scarfers that can actually outspeed and revenge kill it are Flygon and Noivern (which is almost never seen with Scarf, Specs is much more common). Things like Raikou can't revenge kill it because HP Ice only does about 60% to it. It is almost always running Poison Jab, so Fairys aren't an option. Its counters are near non-existant, with Forre and Avalugg (which has less usage than fucking Malamar) being the only ones that can attempt to take it on. It needs to go.

    EDIT: Can this thing get the fuck out already? Like what's the hold up. People stopped posting here because there's nothing else to say and it's been unanimous since the potential suspect thread started. Goth+Hax were the most complained about, nothing has changed.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2014
  14. Scatterbrain

    Scatterbrain You only live once*

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    No one would mind if you elaborated a little more and gave more substantial and concrete reasoning, because what you said is really just a calculation supported by some very simple logic mixed with strong opinions. Adamant Choice Band is crippled by anything that has strong priority such as Sucker Punch or Abomasnow's STAB and super effective Ice Shard, or anything with more than 293 Speed (notably Entei who can burn with WoW or 50% chance with Sacred Fire).

    It's not the only counter there is. Donphan can tank some of it's hits and carries Rocky Helmet + Ice Shard. You're also ignoring the fact that 1) Forretress can escape situations with Volt Switch + has Sturdy. Entei and Houndoom obviously have the edge because they hit him super effectively. That's like saying Haxorus isn't a very good Poke because there are Fairies and Steel types in the tier. Anything with Frisk (think Noivern) can basically end the mind games that may ensue, but you're not going to capitalize off of it effectively if you switch in. He outspeeds neutral max speed Haxorus with 48 EVs, and Jolly with 164 EVs, the rest he can invest in HP and Special Attack.

    Registeel, Alomomola, Aromatisse, Forretress, Florges, Granbull, Escavalier, Donphan, Steelix and Rhyperior say hi. Sableye with WoW / Toxic + anything with Protect or Sub stall it while HP drains. Hail is also common, and Weather Ball + Choice Scarf is also a fairly good combination on Raikou, a frequently used Pokemon. It also naturally outspeeds Haxorus, so it's a comfortable check bouncing off a +SpAtk Ice-type Weather Ball with 100BP. Yeah, it's not going to live that.

    No one ever mentioned that after Outrage, the guarantee of Haxorus being able to attack again is reduced from 100% to a yield of 50% - 12.5%, whereas 50% is the chance of it hitting through confusion and snapping out of it the next turn, and 12.5% is the chance of it hitting through the maximum number of turns allotted for confusion (4 turns) without hitting itself. This impairs it's ability to sweep greatly. If it does hit itself it does a huge deal of damage (a 50 damage typeless physical attack, as quoted from Wikipedia) which, when combined with it's low HP and defense, and high attack, makes it a victim to RNG more than anything else.

    Let's play Bandwagon, Opinion, or Supported Statement?

    Bandwagon! It's even in the OP: you must come up with a well formulated argument, and not just bandwagon your thoughts because the guy above you did so.

    OPINION! State some proof, at least.

    OPINION! It is true, though, but that's how you play Pokemon, and believe it or not, Pokemon isn't just about luck, it's more about a bunch of layered strategies and fail-safes just in case everything goes bad.

    Bandwagon!

    For the rest of you guys, I just want to say something: just because it can boost + kill after that, doesn't make it broken. I literally mentioned a bunch of checks and counters. Many abilities, like Cursed Body (Jellicent, Froslass, Banette), Flame Body (Moltres), Effect Spore (Amoongus, plus a bunch of trashy things), Prankster, moves, such as Protect, Spiky Shield (Chesnaught ftw!) and Substitute (which will eventually cause Outrage to crash and burn), any burn or paralysis related move, Spite, Disable (SubDisable Mega Banette too stronf), and items, such as Rocky Helmet and Red Card, give so much transparency to it.

    It's not going to be easy dealing with it, people just aren't dealing with it properly. If you aren't willing to take sacrifices for your team, then let it get wrecked by a Choice Band Adamant 252 Atk Haxorus. There's a bunch of failsafes that I've mentioned earlier in this tier, it's just people aren't utilizing it properly. Rule of thumb for me is: if your check is neutral to Outrage, it's best to let your Pokemon die and then switch in, so they can deal with it appropriately.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2014
  15. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    Late + tired, so if grammar or a point is kinda off, sorry - will look it over later if need be, but feel free to point it out / nitpick of w/e

    What you are saying is true, but doesn't necessarily help your side of the argument out. Abomasnow, Honchkrow, Entei, etc. can come in with fairly strog priority and do about half, maybe a bit more even, to Haxorus and then get OHKOd in return when talking about the focal CB set. So you are essentially losing one Pokemon for the price of half of Haxorus and then you need to revenge it; in addition to this, getting that priority Pokemon in at a neutral position causes you to potentially fodder off a Pokemon before that - do you see where I am going? This is what happens when a Pokemon is so overwhelmingly strong that it cannot be defensively checked, it wrecks havoc and is this unstoppable (to te extent that makes it broken). When Steelix, Aromatirasse, and Granbull are the only answers to the mon, it really is limiting and if you elect to bypass these 'walls', you have to pack a strong revenger and hope they don't just pick apart your team periodically, assuming the opportunity arises, which (admittedly) isn't always (but w/ mono dragon and average bulk, still in the realm of possibilities).


    Last time I checked Donphan isn't 2HKOing while CB / +1 Haxorus is - Rocky helmet is uncommon and even then, defensive shard might not 2HKO. Donphan is not a check to Haxorus.

    While the Forry thing was ok, I don't understand what you are getting at w/ frisk/Noivern so..

    Set up fodder and SDef (standard) can't tank non-dragon banded attacks consistently.

    Let's give them free DDs or let them 2HKO at the price of them gettin confused after I die and call me a check!

    'Ok' but P-Jab's strong.

    Assuming Phys. Def., sure that'll suffice.

    If it isn't a dragon move, rip

    Like aroma only w/ rest over wishtect and uncommon.

    Boosted/banded EQ 2HKOs easily.

    Touched on before

    A check

    Once again, boosted 2HKOs while Rhypherior doesn't OHKO.

    Did it actually come to mentioning this!? Also. @sableye mention, Lum is common on DD

    Let's play irrelevant, made-up game you use in post.

    Last time I checked, this wasng forum mafia and bandwagoning isn't a cardinal sin (or scum tell in mafia sense).
    Also, way to take a first sentence w/out context AND then claim bandwagoning and a bad post when he supported himself later (although not too well, but still).

    Better than you listing a bunch of pokes that don't stop Haxorus as counters!

    Ok

    You done yet?

    No you didn't, you tried to and failed.

    This applies to everything and isn't specifically stopping Haxorus or keeping it in check, so...

    So you are advising us let a Pokemon die so that you can send in a 'check' or revenger, wouldn't that make Haxorus broken for having to fodder to it??? Come on man.
    [email protected]
     
  16. meeps

    meeps Well-Known Member

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    meeps
    just some extra stuff to mention

    haxorus' bulk isnt that garbage (76/90/70), so it can take hits, especially from physical attackers quite nicely, including some priority, mega aboma is doing ~40% with ice shard if max spatk and no atk invest, entei is doing ~50%, honchkrow sucker punch strongest upwards around over 70%. unless you have multiple pokes with priority they're not going to take down a haxorus from full hp. they can make ok revenge killers tho, but they're not to be used to come in vs haxorus unless it is weakened.

    regarding donphan

    252+ Atk Donphan Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 100-118 (34.1 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    +1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Donphan: 276-325 (71.8 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    if earthquake is used first ice shard will ko next turn tho, kinda shaky check, will lose to band but can beat dd if played around correctly.

    rocky helmet defensive donphan is shaky as well, and loses to band but can usually beat dd.

    registeel needs twave for haxorus, but dd generally carries lum, otherwise registeel isnt doing much. alomomola can toxic but all it can do is toxic or get lucky with scald, otherwise it is 2hko. regarding fairies, while they can check haxorus they will be brought down to very low hp by poison jab, rendering them useless or to be easily revenge killed by something else. escavalier can be 2hko by outrage too and has 50% chance to ko haxorus after rocks. steelix is prob best check behind forretress imo, good poke in the meta overall still.

    regarding your use of abilities to 'beat' haxorus is silly. cursed body is 30% chance to disable, not 100% (tbh it seems like it though), jellicent prefers water absorb usually and banette loses cursed body when it mega evoles (and it also prefers other abilities). flame body moltres isnt even legal yet and is hardly used now, just goes to show you're just pulling up random examples that arent even correct to back your argument. amoonguss isnt even lu lmao (and it prefers regenerator anyways). if chesnaught decides to use to use haxorus it may allow haxorus to get another dd boost, chesnaught is also 2hko'd by +1 or band anyways. dd haxorus still likes lum, which keeps if temporarily safe from burn and confusion, sableye isnt too great of a check, it doesnt run sub too often and will get hit very hard if it tries to switch in. whimsicott is actually a really nice check to haxorus, as long as it doesnt poison jab whimsicott can shut down haxorus with encore trapping it into outrage or eq. disable on banette barely has 1% usage, i dont think it is really used, please stop coming up with random examples. rocky helmet isnt used much on anything, and safe for red card so yeah

    might post other thoughts tomorrow, tired now
     
  17. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Alright so, it's been decided that Haxorus will be banned from the XY LU tier. Combining a powerful attack stat, with an actual decent speed stat already makes Haxorus a powerful threat. Combine that with incredible options like Dragon Dance to improve it's speed, Choice Band to dismantle teams from the start, or Swords Dance to enter OHKO mode, and enough moves to actually cover it's weaknesses, it pushes the envelope on the tier. There is very little that can actually withstand the raw power and avoid being 2HKO and returning a KO or revenge kill against Haxorus due to surprisingly decent bulk and typing.
     
  18. Professor Oak

    Professor Oak Pimp Hand Strong Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep

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    Haxorus has now been banned from XY LU on the main PO Server.
     
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