1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Guest, PO has ceased our separate tiering and adopted Smogon tiers for SM. More information and updates here.

    Dismiss Notice

[Grammar] Salamence

Discussion in 'UU Analyses' started by Dr. Doom, Mar 26, 2014.

  1. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2012
    Messages:
    2,123
    Likes Received:
    110
    [​IMG]

    General

    Meet Salamence, one of the most fearsome sweepers and wall breakers in the tier. A good base 100 Speed, great mixed 135/110 attacking stats, and a solid movepool which gives it perfect neutral coverage combined make Salamence nigh on impossible to wall. If you want to use Salamence to sweep, it gets the still brilliant boosting move Dragon Dance. Its abilities help it out too: Intimidate gives it easier set up opportunities while Moxie makes it extremely hard to stop late game. Oh and it just lost its biggest counter Sylveon, making it even more formidable.

    That's not to say Salamence is perfect however. It's weak to Stealth Rock, as well as X4 weak to Ice moves. And while 100 Speed is good, it is forced to tie with other base 100s like Mega Medicham, who can OHKO with Ice Punch. Dragon STAB just isn't as good as it used to be, due to Fairy types, you can't just click Outrage anymore. Despite those flaws, you should always consider Salamence for your team.

    Dragon Dance

    Salamence @ Lum Berry / Life Orb
    Trait: Intimidate / Moxie
    Nature: Naive (+Spd -SDef) / Jolly (+Spd -SAtk)
    EV: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Dragon Dance
    Outrage / Dragon Claw
    Earthquake
    Fire Blast / Fire Fang

    Say hello to one of the best (arguably the best) Dragon Dancer in UU. Dragon Dance lets Salamence outrun the unboosted metagame besides Deoxys-S, and gives it immense power.
    Outrage is the most powerful STAB, however Dragon Claw can be used if you dislike being locked in. Earthquake gets coverage on the grounded Steel types like Jirachi and Empoleon.
    Fire Blast can be used to hit physically defensive Pokémon like Mega Aggron and Doublade harder while Fire Fang however runs off Salamence's higher Attack stat and is boosted by Dragon Dance and Moxie.

    The EVs maximise Speed and power with the leftovers in Special Attack to power up Fire Blast. If you chose Fire Fang, use a Jolly nature and put the extra 4 EVs in Defence. As for abilities, it's really up to you: Moxie's snowballing effect makes Salamence very difficult to stop late game; however, Intimidate can give you more opportunities to set up. As for item, Lum Berry is usually the better option to get out of Outrage's confusion as well as provide insurance against burns. However, Life Orb is helpful if running Dragon Claw: it bring some extra power which can help kickstart Moxie. If you choose to run a Life Orb, lower Salamence's HP IV to 29 to lessen the recoil. There are other ways you could run this set. You could use a Lonely or Adamant nature to power Salamence up a bit. You could add Draco Meteor and pump more EVs into special attack, but doing so will greatly reduce Salamence's coverage

    ScarfMence

    Salamence @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Moxie
    Naive Nature (+Spd -SDef)
    EV: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Outrage
    Dragon Claw / Iron Tail
    Earthquake
    Fire Blast

    While most Choice Scarf users are meant to be revenge killers, Salamence is one of the few Choice Scarf users capable of sweeping due to Moxie's power boosts. Outrage is Salamence's most powerful STAB, but beware of using it if the opponent still has Steel or Fairy type Pokémon standing. Dragon Claw is the weaker but safer alternative. You could also use Iron Tail in that slot to land surprise OHKOs on Florges and Gardevoir (former needs Stealth Rock to guarantee the OHKO). Earthquake deals heavy damage to the grounded Steel types that resist Outrage; Fire Blast hits the likes of Mega Aggron and Doublade harder.

    The EVs maximise Speed and Attack with the leftovers placed in Special Attack to power up Fire Blast. A Naughty nature could be used for the extra power, but it doesn't get any notable KOs.

    MixMence

    Salamence @ Life Orb
    Trait: Intimidate
    Naive Nature (+Spd -SDef)
    EV: 80 Atk / 252 SAtk / 176 Spd
    IV: 29 HP
    Draco Meteor
    Fire Blast
    Earthquake / Roost
    Outrage / Dragon Claw / Iron Tail

    If you thought you could just send in your physical wall and that would be that, you would be sorely mistaken. MixMence is able to 2HKO pretty much everything in the tier with just Stealth Rock, so it makes the ideal early to mid game hole puncher. Draco Meteor serves as the main STAB, and most of UU's physical walls take massive damage from it. Hippowdon, Slowbro and Quagsire are all cleanly 2HKOd. Fire Blast and Earthquake deal with most of the Steel types that resist Salamence's Dragon STABs. Roost could be used in place of Earthquake to heal off Life Orb recoil and possible Stealth Rock damage. Do bear in mind however, that it will make Empoleon much harder to handle. Outrage is the most powerful physical attack, but if you don't like being locked in there's always Dragon Claw. Iron Tail could also be used to lure in and 2HKO Florges on the switch.

    The EVs allow Salamence to outrun max speed base 90s. Special Attack is maximised to hit as hard as possible on that side, with the rest in Attack to power up the physical moves. Intimidate is the preferred ability, since this set is more of a hit and run attacker and Intimidate helps it force switches, thus giving Salamence more chance to fire off powerful attacks. There are other ways you could EV this set: if you need to tie with other base 100s, a set up of 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd can be used. A Rash nature lets Salamence OHKO 252/252 Bold Slowbro with Draco Meteor most of the time after Stealth Rock, but do bear in mind Salamence will be slower than +Speed base 90s. 29 HP IVs lessen the recoil from Life Orb

    WishMence

    Salamence @ Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    Impish Nature (+Def -SAtk)
    EV: 248 HP / 244 Def / 20 Spd
    Wish
    Dragon Tail
    Earthquake / Defog
    Protect

    While it may seem strange to use a support set on such an offensive Pokémon, Salamence pulls it off surprisingly well. Although Umbreon may appear to outclass Salamence for Wish passing, Salamence's better Attack means it can pull its weight offensively much better than Umbreon can. It also has 2 more resistances and an arguably more useful immunity in Ground, meaning it can switch in on more than Umbreon can. This set pairs particularly well with Mega Aggron. Aggron greatly appreciates recovery while resisting the Ice, Rock, Dragon and Fairy moves Salamence draws in while Salamence is immune to Ground moves and resists Fire and Fighting ones. Wish is the crux of this set, and enables Salamence to keep itself and its teammates healthy. Dragon Tail gets STAB and shuffles the opponent's team. It also prevents Salamence becoming set up fodder. Earthquake gets great coverage alongside it, with only Bronzong and Whimsicott resisting the combination. Protect is used to guarantee Wish will activate. Defog could be used instead of Earthquake to get rid of entry hazards. Indeed, Defog is a good niche Salamence has over the likes of Jirachi and Umbreon.

    The EVs let Salamence outrun max speed Adamant Honchkrow, with HP maximised (with the number kept odd in case of Stealth Rock) to pass the biggest Wishes possible. The rest is put into Defence for more physical bulk.

    Other Options

    A Choice Band set could work, but Haxorus is superior in that role since it's more powerful and isn't weak to Stealth Rock. Hydro Pump can be used on the MixMence set to OHKO Rhyperior and physically defensive Hippowdon most of the time after 1 layer of Spikes. Aqua Tail could be used on the Dragon Dance set to OHKO Rhyperior at +1 and 2HKO physically defensive Hippowdon without having to be locked into Outrage. A Choice Specs set is possible on paper, but Hydreigon is a superior Choice Specs user due to better special attack, a better special move pool, no Stealth Rock weakness and U-Turn. Roost can be used on the Dragon Dance set in place of Earthquake, but Salamence would rather have the extra coverage and Zygarde outclasses it as a bulky Dragon Dancer anyway.

    Checks and Counters

    Counters? Forget it. With Sylveon gone, there is absolutely nothing that can switch into Salamence with no fear of a 2HKO. However, Salamence still has a fair few viable checks. Slowbro can take most sets down one on one, able to survive most attacks and OHKO back with Ice Beam. However, a +1 Outrage will 2HKO and Draco Meteor will OHKO almost every time after 2 layers of Spikes. Physically defensive Hippowdon avoids a 2HKO from a +1 Outrage and can phaze Salamence out with Roar. MixMence's Draco Meteor and Outrage will 2HKO though. Unaware Quagsire can handle the physical sets well enough, ignoring its boosts and fishing for a burn with Scald. Again though, MixMence OHKOs most of the time after Stealth Rock with Draco Meteor. Granbull almost always wins one on one, but is 2HKOd by MixMence's Fire Blast. Florges is in a similar boat, but it is cleanly 2HKOd by a boosted Earthquake and Iron Tail really stings. Choice Scarf Terrakion outruns and OHKOs with Stone Edge, but can't even think about switching in.

    The WishMence set is much easier to deal with due to its lack of power. Mega Aggron and most Fairy types beat it without much trouble.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2014
  2. Virizion

    Virizion ~ Taste the Rainbow ~

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2013
    Messages:
    621
    Likes Received:
    68
    PO Trainer Name:
    Virizion
    Mention in the OP that while 100 Base Speed is good, it does have to speedtie with threats such as Victini and Medicham, who could KO it with Zen Headbutt (after SR I believe) or Ice Punch, providing that they carry it. I also wouldn't say it's bulk is "unimpressive", it's decent and can take a couple of hits, but it's not certainly fantastic. The defensive set can obviously take hits, nevertheless.

    Otherwise, good analysis IMO. ^^
     
  3. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2012
    Messages:
    2,123
    Likes Received:
    110
    Thanks for your suggestions, I have reworded the OP. However:

    252 Atk Choice Band Victini Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 196-232 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Bolt Strike can OHKO after Stealth Rock if Victini runs an Adamant nature, but then it won't tie with Salamence anyway.
     
  4. VuvuzelaΒzz

    VuvuzelaΒzz •Sage

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2011
    Messages:
    890
    Likes Received:
    138
    PO Trainer Name:
    Stephen Colbur
    Good analysis.

    The only thing I have to add is that if someone were to run Life Orb on Salamence's Mix or DD sets, they should consider setting it's HP IV to 29. That way, it would have 329 HP instead of 331, meaning it only takes 32 damage from LO recoil instead of 33. After 2 attacks, it will have broken even, and after 3 it will have more HP than a 31 IV Salamence. I'm splitting hairs, but it's worth noting.

    EDIT: Perhaps slash in Adamant on the Scarf set for those who aren't too worried about Bronzong and don't want to compromise it's bulk.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2014
  5. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2012
    Messages:
    4,289
    Likes Received:
    2,267
    PO Trainer Name:
    Finchinator / Finch
    Hi Dr. Doom.

    Overview is good.

    Scarf is good (if you slash Adamant, like Vuvu advises, mention that Fire Fang is interchangeable with Fire Blast).

    Dragon Dance set is fine, but you should either slash in Roost + Intimidate or OO it - it is pretty good, here is what a potential set would look like, in case you aren't aware
    Salamence (M) @ Lum Berry / Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd (I can come up with a viable bulky spread a bit later, but then it meets competition with Zygarde who has natural bulk, better dual STABs, and priority).
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Dragon Dance
    - Outrage / Dragon Claw
    - Earthquake
    - Roost

    As for the mixed set, I prefer this:
    Salamence (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Fire Blast
    - Earthquake
    - Roost
    With intimidate, Mence has fair bulk and the power of LO DM is surprisingly strong. Also, top five Stallbreaker in the tier, works well on Sticky Web teams, and can run Aqua Tail (or Hydro lol) over EQ for Rhyperior or over Fire Blast on rain teams. Lum is /ok/ but underwhelming and makes DM significantly less powerful.

    I haven't ever used WishMence in any tier bar ADV OU, so ask Soren or Raducan (both use it) for experienced insight, unless the other QCs know.

    Remove mention of Kyurem-B in CB mention in OO as that's BL.

    Good C&C.

    Nice analysis
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 10, 2014
  6. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2012
    Messages:
    2,123
    Likes Received:
    110
    Thanks for your suggestions guys. Recent changes:

    I have implemented your suggestions on IVs Vuvu. I have mentioned an Adamant nature in the set comments, but most of the special moves Salamence draws in (Ice Beams, MGardevoir's Hyper Voice) would OHKO it regardless of nature so it doesn't mind lowering its SDef stat. I didn't slash Naughty/Adamant nature in because you don't get any KOs you wouldn't with Naive/Jolly
    +1 252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Mew: 231-273 (57.1 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +1 252+ Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Mew: 255-300 (63.1 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    As for your suggestions Finch, I have mentioned Hydro Pump and Aqua Tail in OO. But when I was testing Salamence (I prefer to test a Pokémon in the "real world" to get an idea of how well sets perform) I found the Dragon/Fire/Ground combo worked the best. It is still viable though, hence it's in OO. I have slashed Intimidate on the Dragon Dance set, since it can give you an easier time setting up. As for the MixMence set, tying with other base 100s isn't that important. Mew, Celebi and Zapdos most commonly run defensive sets so you'll outrun them anyway. Jirachi would only risk switching in when Salamence is locked into Outrage, and Mega Medicham is always OHKOd by Draco Meteor or Outrage, and without Ice Punch can't OHKO if Stealth Rock isn't down. I did still list that set up in set comments. I have tested WishMence out a few times, and it works surprisingly well. It's best used alongside Mega Aggron.
     
  7. Prof. Grinspoon

    Prof. Grinspoon The PokeProf

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2014
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    1
    PO Trainer Name:
    Jasper
    I had an interesting idea with Salamence. Even though its defenses are hardly it's strong points, they are both base 80, which is reasonable to build from. Because of this (paired with the Intimidate ability, which I find surprising people use more commonly than Moxie), Salamence should at least be able to take a hit from *most* shots while taking a turn to prepare a Focus Energy. I really like the way Critical Hits have been buffed for Gen 6, power reduction or not, and one Focus Energy is still +2 stages (which now means every attack has a 50% chance of Crit). If Salamence were to then use Air Slash, he would get a critical hit every single time, in addition to the STAB he receives from Air Slash. Throw in a few high power moves, like Dragon Rush (the accuracy is a killer but I really like everything else about that move as it pertains to Salamence) and Heat Wave for doubles (50% crit on EACH POKEMON!) and that thing is dangerous for as long as it lasts. Also, there aren't many fast Ice types, which makes this strategy much more useful.
     
  8. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2012
    Messages:
    2,123
    Likes Received:
    110
    Interesting idea, although it does seem kind of gimmicky. I think Dragon Dance is better though since it's more reliable. Still, nice to see some creativity.

    Anyway, I can't think of anything else to add now. Would the QC people mind having a look please? Oh and how do I change the prefix when I edit the thread with the new set up.
     
  9. Prof. Grinspoon

    Prof. Grinspoon The PokeProf

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2014
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    1
    PO Trainer Name:
    Jasper
    I haven't really tested the strategy yet so I can't say it would work well at all, let alone better than Dragon Dance. But I did want to try the Focus Energy buffs and figured Salamence looked like a good candidate. Kingdra, too, since it can have Sniper. I want to try to push Pokemon's creative boundaries, though, there are too many useful unorthodox strategies to hae everyone using the same orthodox ones. And seeing as how Salamence has a wide movepool and surprisingly well rounded stats, I feel like there are lots of possibilities (even if they never stray too far from its "sweeper" utility).
     
  10. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2012
    Messages:
    4,289
    Likes Received:
    2,267
    PO Trainer Name:
    Finchinator / Finch
    First off, this isn't the place for 'interesting ideas'; this is for proven, effective sets that will be in the analysis. Please use the 'Creative Sets' thread in each respective SubForum to discuss ideas, preferably after you test them to decent success. Secondly, you forget that Salamence is weak to Rocks and with base 100 speed, it won't be fairing too well when running an offensive set that needs a free then while not boosting the speed (I guess sticky web support, but this is just becoming a messy theory at best).

    Focus Energy puts the entire set into the hands of luck and still won't be effective without support from sticky-web or dual-screens, for the aforementioned reasons.

    The crit buff just makes Mence weaker, unable to break through things like Florges, and it is still only 50%.

    Air Slash off of average SAtk without anything bolstering the base 100 speed and flying's fair, but not stellar coverage.

    First off, Dragon Rush is generally deemed inferior to Outrage or Dragon Claw in competitive play; the accuracy drop doesn't make up for the power of Claw, nor the accuracy/consistent power of outrage even w/ eventual confusion being taken into consideration. Secondly, Heat Wave hitting both Pokemon in doubles is irrelevant as this is a singles UU analysis; please know what you are posting about prior to clicking the "Post Reply" button in the future. Furthermore, Flamethrower and Fire Blast are both relegated as superior to Heat Wave in competitive (singles) battling.

    Just to name a few fast (tie or outpace) Pokemon with Ice type moves or with the ice type, Weavile, (Scarf) Jirachi, Thundurus-T, and Manaphy all reside in UU. In addition, Terrakion, Gardevoir, and many other treats can easily dispose of Salamence in one hit while being as fast or quicker. Furthermore, this set isn't worth mentioning and shouldn't have even been posted here in the first place.
     
  11. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2012
    Messages:
    1,151
    Likes Received:
    411
    I dislike how Scarfmence is the first set listed because Scarfmence can't simply spam Outrage when there are many fairies and steels around, therefore DD should be the first set, and scarf is second. Because of this reason, it rarely gets the chance to make use of Moxie since it can't easily snowball through a team. Also what does Fire Fang hit that Fire Blast doesn't hit harder? Even at +1, Fire Fang fails to even hit anything hard if it does not do super effective damage because of its really low base power.

    For the DD set, I prefer Intimidate over Moxie because the attack reduction may help Salamence set up easier.

    For the Wishmence set, perhaps consider running defog over Earthquake to make it more support-orientated. Tbh Salamence isn't hitting anything fairly hard without significant investment in attack or some boosts under its belt.
     
  12. Prof. Grinspoon

    Prof. Grinspoon The PokeProf

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2014
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    1
    PO Trainer Name:
    Jasper
    Finch- You seem not to have picked up on my reply to you on the Umbreon board. Let me reiterate- Pokemon is not about finding the most powerful moveset for any given Pokemon. The game is much too situational and strategic for that. Interesting ideas are EXACTLY what this kind of board needs, because someone might toss out an interesting idea that fits PERFECTLY for a particular squad someone else may be running. If you all want to attempt to run the same exact Salamence for your teams, then sure, I'll stick to the "Creative boards", and let you keep your single minded mentality. Again, Pokemon is a team game, even in singles.

    Secondly, have you actually taken the time to look at the Crit buffs? Focus Energy isn't relying on luck anymore. Yes, Crit hits have gone to 1.5x instead of 2x, but a single focus energy causes a Crit 50% of the time now (something that needed the equivalent of 2 focus energies last gen). A Scope Lens or high crit move like Air Slash makes a critical hit 100% of the time. I don't see where luck is any way involved if you get a critical hit 100% of the time.

    The coverage of Air Slash may not be excellent, especially concerning Salamence's weaknesses, but don't forget he gets STAB on that. And STAB is stacked by Crit Hit, so if he gets his crit and STAB, Air Slash will do 2.25x the damage it normally would. Plus, 110 base special attack is hardly a liability.

    If this is strictly singles analysis, then sure, Outrage is superior to Dragon Rush. But I see nowhere that the analysis of the usage of a pokemon must be limited to one battle type. If this is an unwritten rule, fine, but it sure is unwritten.

    Don't like Heat Wave? Sub it for Flamethrower.

    Don't like my strategies? Don't use em.

    But don't tell me not to post them just because you're butthurt I shut you up in a different thread.

    And stop being a Smogon clone. "Oh this idea is untested, it must be garbage". "Oh, this idea doesn't work as well for MY Salamence, it is inferior". Seriously, man. I don't know how easy it is to earn a moderator distinction here, but if you have it, it can't be THAT hard.

     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2014
  13. Daybreak

    Daybreak can't touch this

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2013
    Messages:
    458
    Likes Received:
    142
    PO Trainer Name:
    Daybreak
    I understand that this game is a team game but this section of the forums is to recommend tested, usable, reliable strategies on pokemon. Moves are used not because they are in the movepool it gets but because of the viability these moves offer to the current metagame. Tested movesets are the best way to show proof that this moveset is worth using; and if it's not tested, we have no clue on how effective the set actually is. Who knows, maybe you are right in that it is an effective set, but don't call people out in a rude manner just because they gave you criticism. Even with the set you suggested fire blast is more viable since air slash even when stab is accounted will barely do more and fire blast has infinitely better coverage along with the dragon stab.

    You are under the UU subforum, which is a singles metagame in itself. Please understand the tiering system when you make your posts.

    (sorry had to get that off my chest)

    Good analysis, but the only thing I see is that since you mentioned mixed dragon dance in OO, why not put it as a slash or mention it in the mixmence comments?
     
    Finchinator and meeps like this.
  14. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2012
    Messages:
    2,123
    Likes Received:
    110
    The reason I didn't mentioned a mixed Dragon Dance set in with the MixMence set is because you'd have to give up Draco Meteor in which case you might as well run the regular Dragon Dance set, Outrage/Dragon Claw in which case you'll lack a physical STAB, Earthquake in which case defensive Jirachi and Empoleon will have a field day or Fire Blast which means Mega Aggron will beat you.

    OK, you make a fair point I will move it down to below Dragon Dance and get rid of Fire Fang. On the Dragon Dance set both abilities are perfectly viable, so really it comes down to whether you prefer Moxie's snowballing effect or the set up opportunities of Intimidate. I forgot Salamence got Defog, nice job picking that up. I'll slash it in with Earthquake, since Earthquake can do good damage to most grounded steel types. Specially Defensive Jirachi is 2HKOd most of the time after Stealth Rock:
    0 Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 186-220 (46 - 54.4%) -- 55.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
     
  15. Prof. Grinspoon

    Prof. Grinspoon The PokeProf

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2014
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    1
    PO Trainer Name:
    Jasper
    Daybreak- I respond to the criticism I receive accordingly. Criticism made with proper etiquette and sound logic, like yours, will receive the same level of respect in my response. Finch hunted my post down since I made some criticism he didn't like on another board and gave the most pompous reply I've ever seen, so yes, I will call him out in response.

    Now, I have been playing Pokemon for 17 years, since the very beginning. I know the damage formula and percentages of all scenarios by heart. I don't mean to say this invalidates testing, I completely agree that a strategy must be tested thoroughly. But I do mean to say that I have a pretty good idea by now of what works and doesn't, and most of the things I will post will have undergone testing anyways. This particular idea had not been tested yet, but I'm pretty confident it would work IN CERTAIN SCENARIOS quite well. I also have reason to believe those scenarios would happen often enough that it should be considered a viable competitive strategy, until testing deems otherwise.

    Fire Blast would most likely replace Heat Wave before Air Slash, I would think. I'm sure there is a better move than Air Slash on the Crit Hit Salamence, especially if he's already holding a Scope Lens (which would make every move 100% Crit and invalidate Air Slash's effect), but if you opted for a different item (Weakness Policy, perhaps, if you made him bulky enough?), the 100% crit of Air Slash might come in handy.

    Again, this is just tossing out new inventions, I'm not saying the original idea isn't great. But there's more than one way to build a successful pokemon, i'm just trying to diversify the ideas we get because Pokemon has created all of these unorthodox, hidden gimmicks with good reason. They should be explored.

    As for the tiers, I'll try to get a better understanding of what's expected. I am familiar with the tiers well, but I don't much adhere to them when teambuilding, personally. I'd gladly run a OU team with only one OU tier pokemon if the strategy fits right, and have done so with some success in the past. However, I WILL try to keep a better understanding of the common threats and counters of each tier, and try to remember what the focus is (singles and doubles) of each since my teams are primarily doubles focused nowadays.
     
  16. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2012
    Messages:
    2,463
    Likes Received:
    162
    Grinspoon: You're forgetting one simple thing with this set of yours;

    Salamence does not get Air Slash

    I'll presume you're thinking of Air Cutter, but listing the wrong move and acting like an omniscient authority on the subject just backfires horribly.

    Lastly, we're not being Smogon clones for being unsure on an untested, gimmicky strategy that would be difficult to pull off, and would also undermine Salamence's usefulness. Sure, it'll get crits every time after a Focus Energy, but you'll still be suffering from an average 328 Speed, and Air Cutter's base power is 60. You know how weak that is?

    252 SpA Salamence Air Cutter vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow on a critical hit: 306-360 (79.6 - 93.7%)

    Very. Even with the crit, you're still not OHKOing an averagely bulky switch in (ignore hazard damage).

    Pokemon may not be about using only the best sets, but competitive pokemon is. That's the big difference here.
     
    Isa and Finchinator like this.
  17. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Delta Stream

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2013
    Messages:
    929
    Likes Received:
    102
    PO Trainer Name:
    Epikhairz
    @Prof. Grinspoon - please leave theorymon out of analyses. Consider this a warning, for if I see anymore theorymon, I will be infracting. This subforum is for analyses of Pokemon that are proven effective and to take an in-depth look at them individually. Yes, that means that teammates will potentially take a backseat when it comes to movesets to see how well a Pokemon can do independently, and yes, most of the sets in an analysis will be standard, and not like some gimmicky set you might see in tournament play. But these analyses are for the standard new player (or not) to see which sets are the most common and most effective on the ladder, and how to get around them.

    This will serve as a warning for everyone - No theorymon. No shitty gimmicks.

    I will take a look at the analysis itself and edit in thoughts later, but its looking pretty good at a glance

    Thread Tools at the top right hand corner of the thread, and go to "Edit Title"

    EDIT: Anywho, the analysis is looking pretty good. I agree with Daybreak in simply bunching a Mixed Dragon Dance set with the DDMence set comments, since with Fire Blast, Mence is already kinda mixed :x. I think I would prefer Intimidate for DDMence because it could potentially set up on powerful physical attackers such as Crobat and Snorlax with it. I feel like Aqua Tail could deserve a slash alongside Fire Blast or EQ but I will need some other opinions on that. Also, Iron Tail deserves some sort of mention for bypassing Fairy-types, whether in Set Comments or OO. If in Set Comments, it is probably best in the Scarf set because its easier to KO Fairies with other moves after setup

    I have very little to no experience with WishMence, so I will need other QCs to chime in on that.

    Other than that, good analysis!
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2014
  18. Prof. Grinspoon

    Prof. Grinspoon The PokeProf

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2014
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    1
    PO Trainer Name:
    Jasper
    I hope you understand that you are removing a very important part of the battling strategy for the sole purpose of narrowing your options.
    "Shitty gimmicks" were made for a reason.
    Air Cutter is taught via a move tutor in Heart Gold/Soul Silver and is available by transfer.
    My purpose of posting is to provide useful Pokemon information that might be of service to certain situations a viewer might want to be prepared for. There is no single dominant moveset for any Pokemon. If my advice isn't appreciated, then fine, I won't post it. You all can carbon copy your 3 listed types of Salamence and get blown when you get caught in a moveset combination by someone who wasn't planning Pokemon individually.
     
  19. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Delta Stream

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2013
    Messages:
    929
    Likes Received:
    102
    PO Trainer Name:
    Epikhairz
    There is a difference between alternate movesets that are completely viable and can either act as lures or catch the opponent off-guard, and shitty gimmicks which either suck and do nothing, are completely outclassed, or only hit very specific checks and counters of standard sets

    There is an Other Options section should the player wish to use something else, or simply be creative and come up with his own thing. EVs and IVs can also be adjusted to speedcreep and whatnot, though speedcreep should seldom, if not never, be factored into analyses.
     
    Finchinator likes this.
  20. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2012
    Messages:
    1,137
    Likes Received:
    854
    PO Trainer Name:
    Afro Smash
    Speed creeping max speeds is ok though :]

    And Dr. Grinspoon, the day we get swept by Air Cutter Salamence, we will sure to come back here and apologise.

    As for the sets, Wish Mence absolutely needs Protect, It should not be slashed with anyhting, if you forgo protect you have to be able to possibly survive 3 attacks from a pokemon, 1 as you switch in, 1 as you wish, and then one the next turn before you get your health back from Wish, combine this with the possibility of Rocks, and Wishmence without Protect just isn't viable.

    On the mixmence set I feel like Roost deserves a Slash with Earthquake, as it can help negate LO recoil and Rocks which can otherwise wear it down, and it has decent bulk due to Intimidate. If I'm mistaken and Mence doesn't actually get roost then parodn my mistake :]
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2014
  21. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2012
    Messages:
    2,463
    Likes Received:
    162
    Nope, Mence definitely gets Roost. I'm in full agreement with its mention, as just about anything can make use of free recovery. All you need is a spare turn, really.
     
  22. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2012
    Messages:
    2,123
    Likes Received:
    110
    OK, you make a good point I'll slash Roost in on the MixMence set and mention Draco Meteor in the set comments for Dragon Dance.
     
  23. NAVIDAD PIRATE

    NAVIDAD PIRATE THE PLEASURE OF BEING CUMMED INSIDE

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2012
    Messages:
    1,445
    Likes Received:
    1,057
    PO Trainer Name:
    MeowMix
    what does fire blast/fang hit in this tier that EQ doesn't?
     
  24. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2012
    Messages:
    4,289
    Likes Received:
    2,267
    PO Trainer Name:
    Finchinator / Finch
    Doublade (Fire Blast does a ton while EQ does pitiful damage when not boosted), Forretress, Scolipede, Durant (LU by usage, but still viable), Shaymin (LU by usage, but still viable), Escavlier (LU by usage, but still viable), (Mega) Abomasnow (LU by usage, but still viable), Celebi, Chesnaught (LU by usage, but still viable), (Mega) Heracross, etc.

    Some of these are only listed due to sheer convenience of not locking into Outrage (while D-Claw doesn't do much), but still take quite a bit more from Fire Blast than EQ (Fire Fang's pretty mediocre).
     
  25. NAVIDAD PIRATE

    NAVIDAD PIRATE THE PLEASURE OF BEING CUMMED INSIDE

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2012
    Messages:
    1,445
    Likes Received:
    1,057
    PO Trainer Name:
    MeowMix
    ah yeah I guess forry's kinda important
     
  26. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Delta Stream

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2013
    Messages:
    929
    Likes Received:
    102
    PO Trainer Name:
    Epikhairz
    QC 1/2 good job :]
     
  27. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2012
    Messages:
    4,289
    Likes Received:
    2,267
    PO Trainer Name:
    Finchinator / Finch
    APPROVAL IS HERE
     
  28. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2012
    Messages:
    2,123
    Likes Received:
    110
    OK, written in full, ready for Grammar Patrol
     
  29. Kushalos

    Kushalos ASSCHEEKS CHILLIN IN THE AVY

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2014
    Messages:
    96
    Likes Received:
    295
    MixMence

    Salamence @ Life Orb
    Trait: Intimidate
    Naive Nature (+Spd -SDef)
    EV: 80 Atk / 252 SAtk / 176 Spd
    IV: 29 HP
    Draco Meteor
    Fire Blast
    Earthquake / Roost
    Outrage / Dragon Claw

    Slash Iron Tail instead of Dragon Claw imo
     
  30. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2012
    Messages:
    2,123
    Likes Received:
    110
    The thing is, it's nice to have a consistent reliable STAB since Outrage locks you in while Draco Meteor has stat penalties. I'll slash Iron Tail in, since it can lure in and do massive damage to Florges.
     
  31. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Delta Stream

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2013
    Messages:
    929
    Likes Received:
    102
    PO Trainer Name:
    Epikhairz
    @Dr. Doom

    The EVs for WishMence need to be optimized, as Diggersby is now banned. EVs should probably now run as much HP as possible without hitting an SR number, though if something important needs to be outsped, lemme know, as this isn't a set that I use much or run into at all.
     
  32. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2012
    Messages:
    2,123
    Likes Received:
    110
    OK, I've changed the set to 248 / 244 / 20 to outrun max speed Adamant Honchkrow. There's nothing else that really needs outspeeding that doesn't compromise Salamence's bulk too much. I've also removed mentions of M-Gardevoir since it's moved up to OU
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2014