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Suspect Discussion: Manaphy

Discussion in 'Gen 6 UU' started by Insane Soul, Mar 28, 2014.

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  1. Insane Soul

    Insane Soul Griffith did nothing wrong.

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    [​IMG]

    Discuss the possibility of Manaphy being banned from the XY UU tier.

    Use this thread to discuss Manaphy's effect in the metagame. Talk about the different sets it can use, his best partners/team support and potential checks & counters. State your opinion on whether you think Manaphy should be banned or if it should stay in the XY UU tier.

    All opinions are welcome to be presented, and arguments may be shared between players, as long as you back it up with knowledge and experience and refrain from making your entire points based on responses to others. Theorymonning is not a valid argument and anyone who bases their opinion in it risks being infracted. If you are relatively new to this kind of environment, i suggest you read these guidelines.

    Note: It has been agreed that the UU suspect discussions will follow a different regime on a trial period, to see how the playerbase adapts to it. This thread will be open for two weeks, until the 11th of April, and until then the player will be free to discuss. When the two weeks period ends, i will post screenshots of the ladder rankings from that day, showing every account with 1350 points or more in our ladder. This will be decisive for a vote, where players may claim their accounts and vote for either a ban or a no ban of certain pokemon.

    The goal with this system is to optimize the discussion, as implementing a vote in case of undecision right after the discussion is over takes away the 1 week waiting for the player to ladder to get a good ranking. With this regime, players have to ladder throughly throughout the discussion, which allows them to gather more experience, and values their decision in case a vote has to be implemented.

    This system will only be used in a lack of consensus. The Tier Leaders will read the thread after the two weeks period and decide if the clear majority of the player agree on a certain stance.



     
  2. Insane Soul

    Insane Soul Griffith did nothing wrong.

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    Double posting, but i think this is important. Below are the links to some honorable mentions of Manaphy since the beginning of the tier in both General Discussion threads.

    January/February:
    Insane Soul, first week of January

    ZoroDark, January 4th

    Purpleseamonkey, January 12th

    DracoNinja, January 12th

    Angelus, January 12th

    Hikari, January 12th

    pokemonnerd, January 24th

    Xdesu, February 4th

    DracoNinja, February 7th[/HIDE]

    March/April:
    Clarion, March 5th

    Insane Soul, March 6th (in response to other mentions, like ThatMushroom's)[/HIDE]

    Edit: Keep in mind that some of these posts are mostly obsolete (e.g. adressing Chansey as a counter, when it already left the tier), but they can still provide relevant context.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2014
  3. rriiver

    rriiver Proud Member of VIO and TR

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    This Pokemon should be ou. It went from uber to uu somehow... even though rain teams are dead its tail glow move is ridiculous power. In uu u dont have gensects or talonflames to revenge kill. It has nice speed to outspeed alot of the tier and chansey is only legit shutdown. So..... Ban.
     
  4. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    Wow, this is actually a pretty hard decision.

    Talking about the Suspect itself and not the teammates/checks right now, Manaphy has two main sets: Bulky Sweeper, and All-out Sweeper, which go something like this:

    Bulky Sweeper
    Nature: Modest/Bold
    EVs: 252 Hp / 252 SpAtk / 4 SpDef (a lot more interchangeable here, just an example)
    Item: Leftovers
    - Tail Glow/Calm Mind
    - Surf/Scald
    - Ice Beam/Shadow Ball
    - Energy Ball


    All-out Sweeper
    Nature: Timid/Modest
    EVs: 252 SpAtk / 252 Spd / 4 SpDef
    Item: Life Orb
    - Tail Glow
    - Surf
    - Ice Beam/Shadow Ball
    - Energy Ball

    The bulky set tanks a good amount of hits and can set up much easier while fighting back, but has trouble outspeeding other threats. However, The all-out set outspeeds and kills many things, but still needs a turn to set up and can't take as many hits.

    Really, choosing a Manaphy set is like selling your soul to the devil; it's deadly, but can backfire at any moment in time.

    However, as a whole, the kind of power that it possesses is just too much for the tier. A +3 in Special Attack is just not fair, even with only 100 Base Special Attack, and 100 base everywhere is great even uninvested, making it kind of hard to kill on the first try while it slaughters you in the next turn. Yeah, the coverage isn't great and that makes sense, but Water/Grass/*Ice or Ghost* is still more than enough with what it has to kill what it needs.

    I honestly think it should be banned because its decent stats, coverage, and immediate +3 make it simply above the metagame's league. There ARE checks and counters to this, but this Pokemon is just incomparable to anything in UU.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2014
  5. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    I'm on the fence (again) on banning Manaphy. I did write in this post that even at +3, Manaphy is still stoppable because its water-typing while good defensively, doesn't hold the same offensively and has to resort to coverage moves to hit for neutral damage on other pokemon. I did mention that Empoleon is one of the few pokemon that can eat an Energy Ball and phaze it away with Roar. Another pokemon that I have been experimenting with is Mega Abomasnow and AV Goodrathat can take a hit and retaliate with its STAB.
    +3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Mega Abomasnow: 196-231 (51.4 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (offensive variant).
    +3 252 SpA Life Orb Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Mega Abomasnow: 255-300 (66.9 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    I agree that MAbomasnow have much more difficulty of switching in since it gets solidly 2hko'd by Ice Beam than Empoleon, but it does have Wood Hammer/Giga Drain to KO it outright, while Empoleon can only delay a potential sweep with Roar (but still Manaphy can't find many chances to set up a Tail Glow)

    Manaphy does sport really good 100/100/100 defenses alongside its great pure water-typing that gives it only 2 weaknesses, however grass and electric-moves happen to be incredibly common in the tier. Furthermore, even with its solid all-around defenses, it still lacks the bulk to take stupidly strong resisted hits:
    252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 183-216 (53.6 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    Imo Manaphy isn't able to find a good time to set up a Tail Glow due to the offensive nature of UU, and even if it does manage to set up one, chances are it will be heavily crippled and can be revenge-killed without significant difficulty because base 100 speed is still quite lacking in the tier and its not enough to completely sweep a team, since most decent teams have at least a pokemon above 100 base speed or pack a priority user.

    The generation shift has also not been very kind to Manaphy because of the rain nerf as well as the introduction of Assault Vest which meant that more pokemon when equipped with AV can actually even take a +3 Attack and still do enough damage in return.

    +3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 192-226 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +3 252 SpA Life Orb Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 250-294 (65.1 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 207-244 (60.7 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +3 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 0 HP / 112 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 169-201 (36.6 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    +3 252 SpA Life Orb Manaphy Surf vs. 0 HP / 112 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 220-261 (47.7 - 56.6%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
    252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 135-160 (39.5 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    I added Life Orb calcs because it does help Manaphy a lot and gives it a much better chance to 2hko AV Snorlax, but the recoil hurts a lot too.

    I think what pushes it over the edge for me is its Rain+CM set, since it utterly demolishes stall, and even balanced teams that can't 2hko it. With a simple 252hp/224def/32spe bold ev spread, it is exceptionally bulky on both sides of the spectrum (kinda contradictory since I did say Manaphy isn't really bulky earlier, but that's because it really needs the speed to outrun stuff), even more so if it has multiple CM boosts under its belt. It has really no problem with getting up to +6 if played correctly, and even super effective hits can't do a significant chunk to it. The game is simple, set up Rain Dance, Rest+Hydration whenever necessary, and just keep boosting to +6. Really the only thing that stops it are those that are immune to water-type moves, and there aren't many, only Vaporeon (Water Absorb), Toxicroak (Dry Skin) and Gastrodon (Storm Drain) coming off the top of my head. If I did not list out any, chances are I forgot about it, or it isn't worth running that ability because it has a better one, or simply because it isn't good in UU. CM Manaphy can be played similarly like CroCune, except it trades the ability to wake up in 1 turn and continue boosting vs Rest+Sleep Talk for slightly lesser bulk. Like CroCune, it is a really threatening midgame sweeper that can clean teams really easily.

    I'll get calcs on how bulky this thing is.
    Physical side:
    252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Manaphy: 148-175 (36.6 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Manaphy: 144-171 (35.6 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Manaphy: 143-169 (35.3 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Manaphy: 163-193 (40.3 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ Atk Escavalier Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Manaphy: 163-193 (40.3 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    Special side after 1 CM
    252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 204-240 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 153-181 (37.8 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    0 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 158-188 (39.1 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Aura Sphere vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 99-117 (24.5 - 28.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 4HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 143-169 (35.3 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 138-163 (34.1 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    At +2 the game is more or less over (if Manaphy is played right!)
    252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 152-182 (37.6 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252 SpA Roserade Leaf Storm vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 206-246 (50.9 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Mega Abomasnow Giga Drain vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 138-164 (34.1 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    I only calced for offensive pokemon, but it does not mean that CM Manaphy can only set up on these few. Stall pokemon such as Florges really can't stop Manaphy from boosting up.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2014
  6. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    Manaphy is a good choice for a suspect mon, but why was it chosen over Diggersby? I mean Digg+Garde have been talked about since the January suspect thread, and even in the current potential suspect thread the highlights have been Digg and Garde. I think this is a reasonable request, could we possibly get a Digg suspect going as well? Garde's is pretty much over since only the vote remains so it's not like we're having 3 tests at once. Manaphy wasn't mentioned nearly as much as Digg. On to Manaphy then.

    This thing is pretty ridiculous. With Chansey leaving, the only thing in the tier that can handle it is SpDef/AV Snorlax. Empoleon can phaze it away, but it is only delaying Manaphy coming back in and setting up again. Even with max attack investment, Snorlax is only going to be doing about 35% to max HP Manaphy.
    To be honest, I really don't know what the best EV spread is for Manaphy..because it can utilize many different spreads so damn effectively. Max HP investment makes the thing impossible to revenge kill without some extremely powerful super effective move like T-bolt from specs Thunderus-T. Something like a Modest Specs Chandelure's Shadow Ball is only going to do about 63% to max HP Manaphy.
    I can see it running anything from Max HP/Max Speed, Max Spatk/Max Speed, Max HP/Max Defense, Max HP/Max SpDef, Max HP/some defense investment/rest in SpAtk all on the Tail Glow set. Almost nothing can straight up 1 shot it for a revenge kill so it might not even want to run speed. At +3, even uninvested it is going seriously dent anything that isn't really specially defensive.
    Talk about perfect coverage, Surf, Energy Ball, and Ice Beam is about as perfect as it gets. It sets up on every playstyle in the tier because of its excellent bulk. +3 in one turn is no joke. Under rain though, its level of brokeness just skyrockets. Hydration+Rest with a move that gets it to +3 in one turn and that much bulk is nightmarish, +3 rain boosted Surf is 1HKOing pretty much everything in the tier. Like Draco said, it can even run a CM set, but this would work best under rain. CM Manaphy under rain is nigh unbreakable, after only one CM its going to take about 40% from Mega Garde's Hyper Voice. CM Manaphy also runs a lot of physical defense, and Draco already listed some calcs to show off its unreal bulk.
    I think it should be banned, just the combination of its excellent bulk and the ability to set up to +3 in one turn is too much, and under rain it's gg.
     
  7. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    I disagree with you right here, Empoleon may only be able to phaze it away, but you should also factor in Stealth Rock damage. Furthermore, Manaphy probably took more damage attempting to set up a Tail Glow as well, and Manaphy has no way of recovering back its health bar Rain Dance+Rest, which takes up 3 moveslots with Tail Glow, meaning it can only work as a Mono-attacker, and is inferior to CM despite the immediate power because it is rarely able to boost above 3 while CM can slowly boost up to 6 without significant difficulty. Furthermore I dislike 252hp Tail Glow Manaphy because that means you either sacrifice firepower or its good speed tier, just to have a little extra bulk. If you sacrifice 252evs from Special Attack, you have an even lesser chance to 3hko Snorlax as well.
    252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 135-160 (33.4 - 39.6%) -- 19.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Snorlax Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 163-193 (40.3 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +3 0 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 0 HP / 112 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 135-159 (29.2 - 34.4%) -- 3.6% chance to 3HKO
    Snorlax wins this match up statistically, Body Slam has a 19.8% chance to KO Manaphy, and those odds are much better than Manaphy's 3.6%. Body Slam also has a 30% para rate, and if it does get it, Manaphy honestly has no way of beating AV Snorlax. Return is a much stronger move at the cost of no para chance, but it guarentees the 3hko. If you choose to sacrifice your speed for power+bulk, you lose a very valuable speed tier and you are unable to have a speed tie with many other base 100s such as Shaymin, Victini, Zapdos, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Medicham and others just to name a few. Furthermore there are many other pokemon in a lower speed tier that can now KO Manaphy because they are faster than it, and such examples are Roserade, Hydreigon, Chandelure etc.
    Calcs that show why max investment in speed is so valuable:
    252 SpA Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 326-386 (80.6 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 326-386 (80.6 - 95.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 354-418 (87.6 - 103.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 354-418 (87.6 - 103.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 288-338 (71.2 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 354-417 (87.6 - 103.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 410-486 (101.4 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Manaphy is very rarely going to come in with full health because of stealth rock (even with defog/rapid spin support it is still quite hard to keep sr off the field) as well as other forms of passive damage. As I stated earlier but I'm going to reiterate again, Manaphy probably would have taken a small bit of chip damage just to set up Tail Glow, be it taking resisted hits or sand/hail damage or even tspikes, which turns the majority of the calcs above from 2hkos to 1hkos. Manaphy is taking a small chance to live an attack that would have otherwise taken slightly more damage in return of losing speed ties and getting outrun by many others and risking the chance to be outright ko'd.

    If you are running a 252hp/4satk/252spe Timid spread, you lose a lot of firepower and you aren't able to grab as many KOs.
    More calc urghhhh: (ones in red are without investment, ones in blue are with investment, just to show the difference)
    +3 0 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 186-220 (66.9 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    +3 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 237-279 (85.2 - 100.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +3 0 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Heracross: 231-273 (63.4 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +3 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Heracross: 292-345 (80.2 - 94.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +3 0 SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Blastoise: 286-338 (79 - 93.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +3 252 SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Blastoise: 362-426 (100 - 117.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +3 0 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges: 127-151 (35.2 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    +3 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges: 162-192 (45 - 53.3%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    +3 0 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 4 HP / 0- SpD Raikou: 270-318 (83.8 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +3 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 4 HP / 0- SpD Raikou: 340-402 (105.5 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +3 0 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Mega Abomasnow: 155-183 (40.6 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    +3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Mega Abomasnow: 196-231 (51.4 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    it's not that I'm putting stealth rock damage randomly, but because the stealth rock damage help to secure the amount of KOs 252SpA evs Manaphy would get opposed to 0 investment.

    answered above

    Thanks for mentioning me ^^ I agree that Surf/Ice Beam/Energy Ball has really good coverage, but Manaphy's base 100 Special Attack holds it back, and needs to really rely on Super Effective hits if it actually wants to KO stuff. Because of the rain nerf it only has 8 turns for Manaphy to make use of it. Assuming you have a Politoed, you switch Politoed in to set-up rain, you have the option of either letting Manaphy directly switch into an attack (likely super effective hits will severely dent it or outright ko), let Politoed die (which is really bad because you then only have 1 chance to sweep with Manaphy), or you fodder something just to switch Manaphy in safely (best case scenario, but you still let something die nonetheless). You lose another turn setting up Tail Glow because base 100 Special Attack isn't going to do anything on its own. In total you already lose 2 turns of rain, and you only have 6 turn left of rain to abuse, and your opponent might just pull off a Fake Out or Protect to slow down Manaphy. Furthermore it might backfire on Manaphy as it gives your opponent 100% accurate Thunders and Hurricanes to hit Manaphy with.

    I'll see what others post before I make a solid decision.
     
  8. Rusl

    Rusl Member

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    I would say it doesn't deserve the suspect.
    However this is from my personal battle experiences. It can be easily revenges with any scarf mon. Raikou is super common in the tier and outspeeds it. Registeel can take a plus 3 attack (surf) and twave it back to neutralize the threat. It speed ties with zapdos which ohkos it. And it speed ties with mega gardevoir (although you have to be mega evolved). As mentioned before, empoleon can handle it and other pokes can do it as well. With the knowledge that manaphy is a threat, if you the trainer doesn't prepare for it in team builder or you let your manaphy checks die, you deserve it

    Also I hate when people discuss a pokemon ignoring the fact that offensive moves aren't the only thing available. I personally run encore on mega gardevoir for mainly crocune. But it works wonders on bulky manaphys. It's not broken by any means, it just requires thought.

    Also this was posted on my phone while playing smash.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2014
  9. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    I'll confess my feelings...

    You know what, I'm just going to say it. I'm not afraid anymore and I am brave enough to admit what should not be revealed to people in this society. Stop me all you want, but this is how I feel and you can't stop what I feel is right.

    HERE IT IS!! OPEN IF YOU DARE.........!!!
    I DON'T LIKE RAIN WITH MANAPHY IN THIS GENERATION.

    I'm sorry, but with the devastating Drizzle nerf and the fact that Manaphy has too hard of a time opting Rain Dance with its four moveslots, I don't see how Rain can be taken seriously as an argument. Without permanent rain, abusing Hydration Rest is practically impossible, and if you DO choose to opt it, you take up 2 moveslots out of 4 and maybe an itemslot to use Rain Dance, Rest, and Damp Rock respectively. Also, using Politoed on your team for Rain abuse means it doesn't have enough turns to abuse the rain, you need to keep Politoed alive, and/or you need another one or two Rain Dance user(s) in order to keep consistency, which is too hard to keep all at once because the turn limit (max 8) isn't enough to keep abusers like Manaphy alive.

    Seriously, the whole "God in Rain" argument for Manaphy is practically dead now, so try your best to refrain from putting that as an excuse to ban it because there are better ones to choose.
    Shun me all you want PO, but this is my belief and I don't care what you think of me for it. Let me live how I feel instead of your peer pressure!!

    DISCLAIMER: I accept people that are indeed homosexual and people who admit to homosexuality while holding no negative grudge against them and do not joke about it in order to insult them, so no offense to anyone if I may have taken it too far and have a nice day :)

    But in all seriousness Rain Manaphy in Gen 6 sucks in comparison to previously. Don't make that an excuse to ban it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2014
  10. Accelgor

    Accelgor Active Member

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    Another thing to take into consideration is that Manaphy is primarily used running a 252 SpA/252 Spe spread, which makes it a fast and deadly sweeper right after a Tail Glow boost. As of now, the top four Manaphy sets I looked at on the XY UU usage statistics page were all using the aforementioned EVs, the only difference being the placement of Surf, Tail Glow, Ice Beam, and Energy Ball in their moveslots (lol). Now as viable as the bulky sets may seem to be (throwing EVs into HP, Defense, and Special Defense), most Manaphy users seem to be using the 252 SpA/252 Spe spread. Of course, Sticky Web can be used to ease off some of Manaphy's reliance on its excellent base 100 speed, and this is the only situation I can see people running bulky offensive sets.

    I'm still undecided as to whether or not Manaphy should be banned from the tier or not, so convince me with your arguments people.
     
  11. Insane Soul

    Insane Soul Griffith did nothing wrong.

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    Just posting this to sort some things out between the posters:

    @rriiver
    No suspect discussion post should ever have two lines, regarless of how blatantly obvious you think the outcome should, or would be. And even in those two lines, it is not legit mentioning Manaphy's "brokeness" by pointing out the absence of certain pokemon that are obviously OU.
    UU doesn't have Genesect but it has other legit Scarfers like Terrakion and Victini who can 2HKO it, or OHKO if Manaphy is severely weakened. It also doesn't have a priority Brave Bird user, but it has pokemon like Mega Absol, Breloom, Diggersby and MegaCham's double priority, all of which, while having inferior Base Power moves, have superior offensive stats and can threaten Manaphy almost as much as Talonflame could, tbh.

    Keep in mind that i'm not taking any kind of sides with Manaphy, i'm just referring pokemon which should be discussed in this thread in a VS Manaphy matchup, rather than the pokemon you referred. This is UU, and therefore OU pokemon are irrelevant to the discussion.[/HIDE]
    @Rusl
    Regardless of what you may think about Manaphy's eligibility for a suspect discussion, there were many people asking for it to be suspected over the course of time, and that is why it's being suspected. Revenge killing is also a poor argument, seeing as all scarf pokemon can simply be OHKO'd on the switch in, therefore forcing them to come in a completely safe situation, which can either be on Tail Glow setup or coming in after a pokemon got killed. This is, if anything, a testament to how dangerous Manaphy is.

    Registeel can't do anything to Manaphy besides dealing 100 HP fixed damage and paralysing it. If it switches in on the setup, it will take one boosted Surf, paralyse it, then dent it and die. One pokemon has been taken down, sacrificed to hinder Manaphy's sweeping potential, while giving him enough health that he could still setup on walls that don't hit hard (e.g. Mew or Slowbro), or others who can't use Toxic because it's already statused. Also, relying on speed tie is very shaky arguing, as you're putting your chances of not getting swept into a coin flip, basically. This is a recurring with MegaGarde and MegaCham, our latest suspects. And Empoleon has already been referred, so i won't do it, for now.

    Saying that you have to prepare for Manaphy is another contradiction from yourself, as it implies that Manaphy is overcentralizing and has to be taken into consideration when the player is teambuilding. Being restrictive is a sign that a pokemon is unhealthy for a metagame, and that it should be banned. Keep in mind this isn't my personal opinion, but rather what overcentralizing means and its implications.

    Also, saying that you wrote this on your phone while playing Smash is absolutely irrelevant. If by saying that, you were trying to say how you didn't have enough time, concentration or dexterity to write a better post, then feel free to do so when you're on a computer, and edit your already written one.[/HIDE]

    @NidoTheKing
    Why would you write your post like that? You generally put effort into your posts in suspect discussions and try to argue with other players without being offensive, but some times you focus on doing posts like these with little content and focusing on spamming the same phrase. I expected more of you, and still do, honestly. So don't post a theatrical post like these one with unnecessary drama and focus on other points from Manaphy and other pokemon.[/HIDE]


    I don't ask that everyone writes a long wall of text, i just ask for coherence in everyone's posts and actual discussion of Manaphy in this tier. If the same story repeats, i won't just give a lecture. There will be repercussions.
     
  12. Clarion

    Clarion Snow on the Sahara

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    Hello, everyone. I really want to see a Diggersby suspect first, but, yeah, it's fine for Manaphy to be suspected too, as I've mentioned in the XY UU Suspect thread [link from Insane Soul's second post]. It may seem Diggersby is not a long-term problem as Pokemonnerd said on that thread, but it's worth a suspect to me in this case. Anyway, on to Manaphy.


    Argument #1: Coverage. A very few Pokemon can take Manaphy's common attacks with impunity (especially on the switch), but they have some inherent problems to do work against Manaphy.

    In my experience, Manaphy is quite annoying to face because of the Tail Glow sweeping set trying to dent everything in its path. For those who haven't seen it yet, let me quote that from NidoTheKing's post with my revisions on possible items and best nature.

    As stated previously, a Specially Defensive Empoleon (240 HP / 252 SDef+) will definitely survive a boosted Energy Ball (takes 43% on average) with full health, but the problem with Empoleon is that it can't do much to harm Manaphy back (Roar it out). Assault Vest Snorlax (112 SDef) will also survive a boosted Surf (but I haven't experienced that, however, but DracoNinja made a post about that) and may paralyze it with Body Slam, but the problem with Snorlax (and other Pokemon) with that item is that it can't recover with Rest and may require Wish support (plus it would risk being burned given Scald in its moveset over Surf as the power difference isn't that significant anyway in my opinion). As said in the XY UU Suspect Thread, I could mention one hard counter to this set as it could wall all attacks unless someone is OC and placed Shadow Ball somewhere. Besides, it's weak to hazards (bar Sticky Web, Speed won't matter much); thus, properly setting up hazards would spell doom to that Pokemon (hint hint!) Aside from these three, there are no other Pokemon on top of my head that would take Manaphy's common attacks very effectively. This is my focal point of my argument that I would say Manaphy should be banned in XY UU.


    Argument #2: Base Stats. Manaphy has a great all-around 100 stats around the corner, but there are some flaws that would hold it back.

    First and foremost, I'll focus on the Speed aspect. Theoretically speaking, a Modest nature would give Manaphy a lot of kick to its attacks (given the offensive Tail Glow set). In reality, however, Speed is quite an issue, as its 100 base Speed is one of the good Speed tiers in XY UU which would force most Manaphy users to run Timid instead of Modest to force a Speed tie to other Pokemon running an offensive set (Mega Medicham, Mega Gardevoir, Victini among others). The speed issue, however, would be mitigated through Sticky Web, thus running Modest is not a bad idea that way, but it has to fear Jolly Choice Scarf Pokemon as even affected by Sticky Web it would outrun Modest Manaphy (Zapdos is worth mentioning).

    Of course, given that offensive Tail Glow set and that Speed tier, people who don't have anything to switch into Manaphy's attacks would imply one of their Pokemon (whether important or not) will be served as death fodder and summon a Pokemon that would kill Manaphy. That's for an offensive standpoint, disregarding the defensive side of things, hence not a very good argument.

    I can't elaborate anymore the bulk aspect because DracoNinja said that clearly in my opinion (gist: lack of set-up opportunities despite solid bulk, plus elaboration of CM set).


    ~~


    Lack of set-up opportunities seem to hold Manaphy back from reaching its full potential, but the common moves paired with Tail Glow outweighs its languishing weakness(es). I think Manaphy should be banned in XY UU that way, although I can sympathize with the anti-ban side.
     
  13. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    If you want a more detailed elaboration that's all you needed to say (oh and thanks for believing in me :3).

    I could argue my point with the small posts that you seem to dislike, but digression.




    My view on Manaphy:

    100 stats everywhere, no matter how you put it, is pretty good. Its offenses and defenses aren't gamebreaking or underwhelming and it's speed tier is in the "good enough" range to hit what it needs. Sure it can'tkill everything in sight unboosted, but it's still not bad.

    Its options are limited, sure. But that doesn't mean it's a bad Pokemon. Some Pokemon don't need other options in order to succeed. Predictability works on a Pokemon if the predictable set is as effective (which, for Manaphy, really is).

    Also, it does have problems optimizing EVs (either bulk or Speed, no in-between) and it can be revenge killed by faster foes like say Raikou or Mienshao when weakened enough, so it isn't unstoppable like say MegaKahn. Oh, and besides Leftovers, no recovery, but that's more of a "whatever" flaw to it.

    So yeah, there are some good reasons not to ban it and it's not an obvious ban like Kyurem-B was, but I still vote for ban.

    Why? My problem with Manaphy is actually pretty simple: Instant +3.

    Seriously, you guys complain about MegaLucario's Nasty Plot set to be a living nuke. Well, imagine a little slower MegaLucario with no priority but more defenses and after a single easy boost STRONGER RELIABLE STAB WITH LIFE ORB!

    Don't believe me?
    +2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 266-314 (65.8 - 77.7%)
    +3 252 SpA Life Orb Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 286-339 (70.7 - 83.9%)

    Stronger. Stronger than one of the most feared instant setup users banned from OU. You honestly can't NOT be scared of something like that!

    Water (STAB); Grass; Ice/Ghost may not hit everything super effectively like say Mew could, but that coverage is more than enough to hit the tier neutrally. So far, the only surefire counters I heard are AVLax, Goodra, and AVEmpoleon, which are fair arguments, but the rest die if you let it set up and neither of them bar Goodra can kill it in time.

    "Oh but almighty lord NidoTheKing, you shouldn't let it set up such a feared +3 and you will have a chance!" That's cute. Remember the 100 Base stats everywhere? Remember that argument didn't work on MegaKahn, who had a similar 105/100/100 to Manaphy's 100/100/100? I'm sorry, your argument has been canceled right there.

    Ban Tail Glow? Pointless. The only other users are Volbeat and Smeargle, and you might as well just hit Manaphy to make life easier.

    Oh yeah and sorry to say DracoNinja, but setting up is actually not hard at all and the same logic with setting up with MegaLuc. You don't send it out in front of a Pokemon you KNOW will kill it in order to set up because that's pretty dumb. What you do is send it out on a Pokemon that serves as no threat to it and cause sorrow in one turn (which, again, is not hard).

    Manaphy can be revenge killed and I get that. Things CAN wall it if dedicated and I get that. It's EVs can't prepare itself for everything and I get that. But good sir who thinks I don't get it, YOU have to get that almost everything that can't deal with Manaphy has a death sentence when set up (and how many things can deal with Manaphy without any sort of trouble whatsoever? 5? 6? Out of ~100+ Pokemon viable in the tier?), and the set up is EASY.



    Are you happy now Insane Soul? :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2014
  14. Rusl

    Rusl Member

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    In response to Insane Soul:

    Manaphy is 51st in usage. Above it 11 pokemon outspeed it, and 3 speed tie with it.
    Each one of those pokemon can ohko manaphy after rocks if we are discussing the non bulky set. Of those 3 that speed tie it, the most common set is a choice scarfed set. Also Mega Houndoom and kingdra outspeed if megaevolved/ in the rain, but that's moot. Literally every pokemon that outspeeds it, has had a top 40 usage stat in uu since gen 4 (besides the ou drops). So the point I made was trying to make is that mathematically, most teams are aready pprepared for manaphy.
    People just play into a hole against it, then cite calcs to back up their claim that it is broken. I don't even use it, in fact it being banned would make my life easier, but it does not deserve a ban imo.
     
  15. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    GO US-EAST
    Where did you get your information from? Did you just assume that certain things ohko it? In the top 50, I counted 9 things that outspeed it and 6 that speed tie (not counting megas in any of these). Now, let's see how many of these can "ohko it"
    252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 302-356 (88.5 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 196-231 (57.4 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 221-260 (64.8 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    4 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 118-141 (34.6 - 41.3%) -- 68.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 292-345 (85.6 - 101.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
    252 SpA Galvantula Thunder vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 294-348 (86.2 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 269-317 (78.8 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    4 SpA Deoxys Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 214-253 (62.7 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Well would you look at that, only 3 of them have a CHANCE of ohkoing (all well below 50% chance) I won't bother posting all of the speed tie calcs, but I'll post some assuming they're scarfed
    252 Atk Victini Bolt Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 238-280 (69.7 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 135-159 (39.5 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 202-238 (59.2 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    You get the picture, right? I don't need to bother posting the calcs when Manaphy attacks back at +3, you know what happens.

    I don't want to side with a "broken or not broken" verdict yet, but I'm leaning towards broken. I'll post my thoughts later on, but that post bugged me a bit.
     
  16. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    Oh wow.

    Shit I didn't think it was THAT bulky but what do you know XD

    Not quite sure what this has to do with anything about not banning it seeing as overall usage in the tier means nothing to banning it or not (I'm sick of repeating that).

    First off, I don't need a damage calculator to know MegaHoundoom can't OHKO Manaphy and if it can't, neither should Kingdra.

    Second, Stealth rock is never a given on either side of the field, especially in this generation.

    Third, Raikage proved this almost entirely wrong with his calcs seeing that only three have a possibility to OHKO it without SR.

    So if I have a Scarfed Accelgor I win because nothing can outspeed it, Bug Buzz and its coverage moves shooooouuuuuld OHKO everything in the tier, and against a threat that could wall it, use Final Gambit to remove the threat, thus being prepared for virtually everything mathematically.

    Argument doesn't make sense? It's the same argument as the one you just made.


    Hold on. What?

    ......*reads the same thing eight times*............

    I don't get it 0.o
     
  17. Rusl

    Rusl Member

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    Ok the reason I posted that was I HOPED someone would call me out on the pure bs so I can settle this. The reason I mentioned manaphys place in usage was to show it wasn't over centralizing. No one runs galvantula for manaphy, it's there for sticky web. Now for the fun part. All these things 2hko manaphy after rocks. So besides salamence getting ice beamed or terrakion surfed after spec def drop and a few others, manaphy HAS to set up in order to be a "broken" threat.
    Now I know the counter argument for that is, "manaphy obviously isn't going to set up on something that can harm it"

    If you, the battler, knowing that manaphy wants to tail glow it's little ass, let's a manaphy come in on your choice scarf victini using v create, then that's your fault. I don't understand how people ignore that in order for it to be a threat, it has to set up to become a threat.
     
  18. Diz

    Diz God Left Me Unfinished

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    Huh, never thought manaphy would be suspected. Never really see it in the tier, so its impact on the meta never seemed like a problem. I can see both sides of the arguments. Pro-Ban will probably discuss the instant +3 boost it gets from tail glow and the lack of a solid special wall in the tier really increases the threat manaphy poses. On the other hand, like rusl stated, it gets out paced by some notable threats, mainly thundurus-t and manectric. Seems like it'll be interesting to see how this thread plays out.
     
  19. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    Osnap, reverse psychology :0

    Good try, but disproving overcentralization for anti-ban doesn't quite work like that.

    Overcentralized usually leads to broken, but broken doesn't always lead to overcentralized. There have been Pokemon in the past that were not overcentralized and were still banned for respective reasons (Whatup BW2 UU Liepard?).

    Okay, the last statement is true; It has to set up in order to be broken.

    Well, it can already set up by itself on a good half of the tier. Guess it just can't set up on enough...

    Um, yeah. At least you know what the predicted counterargument is.

    Sooooooooo, you going to address the counterargument or just leave it like that?

    .......................

    Sooooooooo, you going to address the counterargument or just leave it like that?
     
  20. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    I believe specially defensive Ludicolo deals with Manaphy well. It can avoid the 2HKO with Giga Drain recovery and come out on top in the end.
     
  21. Insane Soul

    Insane Soul Griffith did nothing wrong.

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    Although a relatively healthy Ludicolo will have a great chance of beating Timid Manaphy (even Modest has hard chances), there are certainly more viable pokemon, and sets, that can give Manaphy a hard time without you having to "scrape the bottom of the barrel". If there weren't, Manaphy wouldn't even need to be discussed and could just be banned without a public discussion. Such is not the case here.

    I previously asked that some of you had a better judgement to your own posts, instead of keeping that judgement solely towards other players. A part of this self-judgement includes avoiding writing one-lined posts, like the one you just did. This is the second time i am writing this, in hopes more players will be able to read it, as the post is more recent and doesn't have to be scrolled up.

    Also, NidoTheKing, you seem to be resorting in this thread, as well as others, to something called "bullet points". This is when you divide your "opponent's" post into very short bits and individually counterargue with each part, making it easier to attack the whole. That is a division fallacy. I know you're trying, but i hope that you could change that about the way you post.
     
  22. Windblown

    Windblown sable knight

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    I dislike having to make comparisons to other Pokemon in a suspect thread, especially something suspected in another tier, but I think there's a big difference with Mega Lucario and Manaphy. The former has much more threatening offensive stats (140/145) that make it an offensive threat even unboosted, while Manaphy is fairly team at +0. Luke's stats also makes it difficult to figure out whether it's physical or special. Manaphy has no such distinction - you know it's going to be hitting from the special side.

    Mega Lucario also has speed on its side, both a higher base stat (112 is a lot more useful than 100) and priority (three possible attacks) while Manaphy, as mentioned before, speed ties with quite a lot of of the UU tier (Mega Medicham, Mega Gardevoir, Zapdos, Victini, Shaymin, probably others that can threaten it).

    It has bulk, sure, with the advantage of only two weaknesses but Mega Lucario was shown in the suspect to have ample amounts of time to setup as well.

    In response to Rusl's post here, the scenario you put up is highly prediction-reliant. 'If my Scarfed Victini out uses V-Create I risk them switching Manaphy in and getting a free +3 so I can't let that happen so obviously I'll always U-turn out (or Bolt Strike) and they'll always switch Manaphy in.' That's not a solid argument - if they had a threat out like Diggersby or Weavile you would be very tempted to V-create to force them out. So yes, Manaphy has a lot of opportunities to switch in and set up. Against offense, it struggles, but +3 is fairly difficult for slower defensive teams to wall. Being able to come out against defensive Arcanine, Florges, Metagross (kinda), Slowbro, Umbreon, Swampert, Forretress, Rhyperior, Suicune (which are all fairly used) is very threatening.

    As to my own opinion on Manaphy I'm on the fence. It looks like I just argued for Manaphy's ban but it DOES have a problem posing a threat to offensive teams. It can't OHKO Victini 100% of the time even with rocks down; it needs 52 Sp A EVs to OHKO Mence with Ice Beam, so bulky variants can't actually OHKO Mence all the time without rocks; Terrakion is only OHKO'd a small percentage of the time (needs rocks); Ice Beam won't OHKO Hydreigon and LO Draco Meteor does a metric ton (78-92%) although Dark Pulse more often than not doesn't 2HKO so meh.

    Then there is of course Thundurus-T which outspeeds and OHKOs; Mega Manectric and Raikou lose out on the OHKO without prior damage, but I don't think Manaphy will be at that high of health all the time so if Manaphy is at 80% or lower Raikou/Mega Manectric handle it fine (actually Manectric can take it at around 90).

    Some defensive things I mentioned above don't let it set up for free: Arcanine can burn it, although it's still at a major disadvantage; Florges can Toxic stall it a bit; Slowbro can paralyze it; and Suicune can Roar it out a few times. I didn't mention Mega Aggron there because Surf is a 4HKO and it can Dragon Tail/Roar it out consistently. It doesn't enjoy taking a Will-o-Wisp from Mew so Mew could get some damage on it, I guess it can set up on Mew but it won't like it.

    There's a fairly common bulky Zygarde set I found in usage statistics that it can't OHKO all the time: 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 100 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 344-408 (90 - 106.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO. Just wanted to point this out since a bulky Manaphy set is fairly viable, and Zygarde is not at all setup bait for Manaphy if it's DD.

    Yeah, I don't have a strong opinion on it. Saying "it can set up on half the tier" is a stretch though.

    Gardevoir 13.4615 9314
    Medicham 13.4225 9287
    Victini 12.6189 8731
    Crawdaunt 11.2661 7795
    Chandelure 11.0565 7650
    Weavile 10.912 7550
    Zapdos 10.1995 7057
    Mew 10.0983 6987
    Terrakion 10.013 6928
    Breloom 9.89307 6845
    Heracross 9.78034 6767
    Florges 9.13718 6322
    Diggersby 9.12851 6316
    Salamence 9.10538 6300
    Blastoise 8.0561 5574
    Metagross 7.89856 5465
    Jirachi 7.83497 5421
    Aggron 7.16579 4958
    Arcanine 7.04728 4876
    Darmanitan 6.7799 4691

    Bolded the ones that are fairly safe (things like Breloom OHKO if Manaphy sets up, so I left it out)
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2014
  23. Accelgor

    Accelgor Active Member

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    Well said, Insane Soul. I think that we should all put some more thought into our posts from now on so as to enrich this discussion rather than falsifying it through the use of fallacies and false criticism and information.

    Thought I'd share this with everyone...

    My personal answer to Manaphy is AV Escavalier. It possesses above average bulk (70/105/105 defenses) and can also hold its own on the offensive end with its hefty base 135 attack stat. I usually switch it in during the turn which Manaphy usually uses to set up Tail Glow. From then on, Escavalier can take a +3 boosted Surf and deal some heavy damage in return. Don't believe me?

    Let the calcs speak for themselves.

    [SECRET]+3 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Escavalier: 195-231 (56.6 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Escavalier Megahorn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 220-261 (64.3 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery[/SECRET]

    So you see? Escavalier can switch in and take a hit while dealing more damage than it was dealt. From then on, a faster/priority Pokemon can take out Manaphy. I would consider Escavalier to be a check at best though, as it cannot take repeated Surfs from a +3 Manaphy. It's come in very handy during the times that I've used it, and its uses extend far beyond countering Manaphy (also an excellent counter to Mega Gardevoir, which was suspected before Manaphy).

    There are many ways to go about countering Manaphy, but I would say that it doesn't have enough of a stronghold upon the current metagame for it to be considered overcentralizing.​..for now. Convince me otherwise people!


    EDIT: Oh I posted this without any knowledge of what Windblown stated in the post above this one. Sorry for making the comparisons; I was just trying to extend this discussion.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2014
  24. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    Mega Kangaskan can be revenge killed by Terrakion and Mienshao. Let's drop it down to UU, y/y? Revenge killing can apply to almost every suspect mon in history and is a horrible argument for or against a ban. Revenge killing basically assumes that you sack a mon to Manaphy or whatever first before bringing in your revenge killer, this is what the large part of your 3 posts appear to be in support of. That's not a valid argument imo. Also, Raikou is not super common. On the contrary, it's pretty rare at 3.3% usage.

    We're focusing on Manaphy's best sets, not niche support moves it can run. It needs Tail Glow/CM + 3 attacks.

    All of those mons take like 80% or more unboosted though, how is that not posing a threat? I agree that offensive teams have an easier time dealing with Manaphy but they have to constantly keep pressure up via volt-turn or whatever because they need to make sure Manaphy doesn't Tail Glow. Its bulk comes into play when you try to revenge kill it (on offensive teams) after it's Tail-glowed, because even uninvested its bulk is pretty damn solid..refer to da raikage's calcs. Against balanced or defensive teams though, its set-up opportunities skyrocket since almost all common defensive mons in the tier can't do much to stop Manaphy.

    I've never seen a Slowbro with T-wave tbh, also if Slowbro comes in after Manaphy set up or during a predicted Tail Glow, it gets outsped and 1HKOed with Energy Ball. Yes, these other mons can status it but that is no solution..you've just allowed Manaphy to get to +3 in exchange for a move that will kill it in 6 (Toxic) or 8 (Will-o) turns, which is more than enough for Manaphy to seriously dent or sweep a balanced/stall team. Phazing fits into this category also, but it's worse. When a phazer comes in, it is usually on a predicted Tail Glow..which means the phazer has to eat that hit before forcing it out. If this phazer is not SpDef Empoleon/Snorlax, then gg because Mega Agg gets 1HKOed by Surf (depending on EVs) and Suicune 37% chance to get 1HKOed by Energy Ball.

    I agree half the tier is a stretch, but it sets up on a lot of the tier. I'd also bold Mew, Blastoise, Jirachi and Aggron on that list..because these mons are also pretty safe for Manaphy to set up on. 8 out of the top 20 is too good when it comes to a set-up sweeper as crushing as Manaphy.

    I still stand by my verdict of ban. Snorlax is pretty much the only thing in the tier that can somewhat handle it, and Manaphy's bulk, even uninvested (look at da raikage's calcs) makes things like revenge killing almost impossible without something super powerful like specs Thundy-T. It also sets up on a large portion of the tier, +3 in one turn is too much..especially with that much bulk/good typing/perfect coverage.

    Also @Insane Soul, two things. One is that you're giving Nido too much credit for some reason, just look at his responses to my posts on page 1 of the March suspect thread..the man literally takes 1 like from 1 paragraph and makes an entire post about it without reading any previous posts. He even questioned a statement of mine where the answer was literally in the post he quoted.
    And two, Digg+Garde were the centerpoint of the potential suspect thread so could we possibly also get a Digg suspect? Clarion seems to be in favor of it also, and Xdevo if I'm not mistaken as well as others who participated in the disussions.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2014
  25. Um Hello?

    Um Hello? Member

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    Couldn't resist, the only reason you don't see Physical Manaphy is the bad physical movepool, and the fact that it gets CM/Tailglow, not stats. :cool:






    [​IMG]



    Moving on from that, it's not always revenge killing bringing something in, for Manaphy to ever really be a threat it HAS to Tail Glow, or set up multiple Calm Minds (1 in a few cases, of course.) Remember this takes up a turn. It has been shown in several posts that Manaphy simply lacks the base power to OHKO common Pokemon that threaten it out. Sure, if your team is weakened enough, or badly prepared to deal with Manaphy in the first place this isn't an important factor, but that could happen with any Pokemon and it does not make any of them broken.

    There are a solid number of Pokemon that can take on a manaphy, either switching into an unboosted attack, or into a boosting move, (unless it's CM and the thing is special and then can't OHKO but w/e.)



    Please, stop trying to make a Suspect Discussion of Manaphy into making a new Suspect thread for other Pokemon, regardless of your view on them.

    That and if by
    you mean
    sure.





    I'm not actually sure how I feel about Manaphy in actuality, perhaps it's its low usage that causes this, guess I'll wait until the voting part assuming I keep my alts over the requirements (and assuming there is a vote, but I feel like there will be looking at this thread.) until I make up my mind. (If I vote.)
     
  26. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    .....................you know what, it's not worth responding to this Ad Hominem and debating with you won't help either side. I'll just ignore this.

    And to Windblown, I'll confess that the "set up on half the tier" was an extreme statement and is most likely false, but it isn't like Nasty Plot Deoxys-A where it has literally no time to set up because it DOES have an ample amount of opportunities.

    Also, I was comparing Manaphy's strength to MegaLucario, not Manaphy itself to MegaLucario, because of course I know they aren't the same.

    I JUST WANT TO PLEASE YOU DX

    Oh and Accelgor, please teach me the art of AV Escavalier. I wish to be a disciple of its bulk and anti-metagame trickery.

    (I'm not joking with this statement you're convincing me to use it so much :3)

    But yeah, counts as a check.
     
  27. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    Doing this from phone so excuse any sloppiness or whatever because I'm not going to be able to quote and stuff.
    @Um Hello? I said that revenge killing shouldnt be a valid argument for or against a mon. He was using that as his entire.reason for not wanting to ban Manaphy, I simply added the fact that if it comes.down to it, it can't be revenge killed without something like a specs Thubdy t. I'm not using this as my main argument, it's something I thought I'd mention.

    I agree AV Escav is a good check but you need to have a scarfer or priority user alongside it to revenge it.but you will need to sack Escav for this to happen and it's no guarantee that your opponent.is.going to let Manaphy die, depending on their team they could have things to take whatever priority. This isn't the case for offensive teams though, since they'll most likely sack Manaphy.

    Sorry for the dots, my phones keyboard is fucked.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 2, 2014
  28. Accelgor

    Accelgor Active Member

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    Of course revenge killing shouldn't be a valid argument for or against banning any Pokemon. Of course, it can be revenge killed by using priority once it has taken some prior damage, but in most cases Manaphy will have ended up taking something out before the player had the chance to switch in the prioritymon, as most of the viable ones are weak defensively and cannot 1hko Manaphy with any move bar a crit.

    As for AV Escavalier, it's just my personal favorite check for Manaphy and it suits my playing style. There are other viable options as well that can check or even counter Manaphy. I also think it'd be beneficial for people to list their own answers for Manaphy so we can delve further into this discussion.
     
  29. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    It's a good check, as good as it's going to get for a check. AV Escav is a super solid mon in this meta in general.

    This is the problem with Manaphy though, besides AV Snorlax, there's nothing in this tier that can handle it, and AV Lax gets 2HKOed in Rain by +3 Surf. SpDef Lax just can't do enough damage to Manaphy to not become set-up fodder (banking on paras isn't that great of a strat), which is why max attack AV Lax is its only semi-counter in the tier. Empoleon can do next to nothing to Manaphy, its only defense is Roaring it out which just delays Manaphy setting up again. Yes, Roar can force Manaphy to take some SR damage from coming back in but that is negated with Lefties to the point where it's negligible. I'm also eagerly waiting to see what peoples answers to Manaphy are, because there's close to nothing. The main anti-ban argument I've seen is all speed/revenge killing related, and I seriously hope that this doesn't go through to a vote because of arguments like these. I've also come to the conclusion that max SpAtk max Speed Timid is probably the best option for it, since its natural bulk is already really damn good..but bulky sets work amazing under rain, and are honestly more threatening than max max imo.
     
  30. Xdevo

    Xdevo Sp00pyScarySkeleton Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    How is AV Esca a check? I mean it gets off an attack (well 85% of the time I guess), but it doesn't really force Manaphy out, and it gets 2HKO'd in return. That's not really winning any percentage of the time at all. I mean it makes it easier to revenge kill later, but you've lost a Pokemon in the process (and Esca is generally one of those glue Pokemon that you don't just sack whenever you want), which means that Manaphy's done its job. I mean if you can guarantee that Manaphy will always take ~30% switching into play (give or take with Leftovers + hazards), then I guess it's a check, but that's a pretty far stretch in a suspect discussion. Saccing something to get enough damage to kill it later is a pretty bad way to deal with something.


    As for actual checks/counters, Abomasnow wins with SR up against Manaphy; SpDef Ludicolo wins (it's not good though); Empoleon can "force" it out twice (doesn't win 1v1 though); RestTalk Whirlwind Snorlax can phaze it a number of times, but loses 1v1 or if it's taken any previous damage; Ass Vest Snorlax actually loses if Manaphy gets in with just SR damage and gets lucky with para chances (Body Slam doesn't 2HKO, while +3 Surf 3HKO's) so it's still just a shaky check.

    The other (and most common way to take out Manaphy) is to switch something that outspeeds and OHKOs if it sets up. So things like Thundurus-T, Shaymin*, Zapdos*, Manectric, and Raikou can switch into Manaphy and force it out. They do lose if Manaphy "predicts" and uses Surf / Ice Beam instead of immediately boosting (it's not really prediction, since Manaphy doesn't really lose anything by Surfing immediately). I guess the obligatory "use Offensive pressure" argument falls here too, though it's generally a really shitty argument in general since its extremely vague and applies to any offensive threat. It's a lot less pertinent for Manaphy as well, since it's so bulky as a Pokemon.

    So overall, there are no "solid" counters that I'd consider good in UU, and the main argument I've seen for it not being broken boils down to "don't let it set-up," which while there is a point to it (if I let say DD Fraxure set-up to +6 every time before I did anything, it'd be my fault for losing, not the Pokemon's), it's a bit unfair to expect to never give a Pokemon with 100/100/100 bulk a few turns over the course of a match.

    All of this (and I guess the Rain set too, but ehhhhh), is why I think Manaphy is broken in UU.
     
    Finchinator likes this.
  31. User Name

    User Name Life is a maze

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    Just wanted to mention--
    Saying that you have to prepare for Manaphy means that and only that: That you have to prepare for Manaphy. The fact that you should have a fairly solid answer to a strong threat in the tier is not the same as overcentralizing, or even centralizing. You are 'forced' to 'consider' boatloads of Pokemon when teambuilding all of the time, the great majority of which are not broken in the least. If the goal is to be able to build a team without thinking of metagame threats while doing so, then this definition will suffice, but that is an extreme that seems rather undesirable.
    Just wanted to point this out, because under this definition almost literally every useful Pokemon is overcentralizing.

    It's certainly not the best argument, but it shouldn't be ignored either--especially considering that it can be used to strengthen a pro-ban argument. Consider that there are 'degrees' of how easy a Pokemon is to revenge kill; Mega Gardevoir, for example, is relatively easier to revenge kill than Manaphy due to its weakness to at least one form of priority and its very low Defense. Manaphy fears neither; its bulk is solid enough to sponge most priority, it actually resists several priority moves, and it is weak to none of them.

    So while revenge killing as an argument should not be given a lot of weight, it shouldn't be completely discounted as an argument.
     
  32. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    First I would like to say that I am on my phone so this will be a bit shorter and to the point. I'll expand a bit on explanations later.

    And ThatMushroom you are kind of exaggerating Manaphy's power a lot. I've used it on practically every team since XY UU first came out and it is not as broken as you try to make it seem.

    Sure in theory it sounds over powering, but in practice it doesn't break games. More often that not Manaphy only plays a significant role against bad opponents, or ones that have teams that aren't adapted to the metagame.

    Manaphy is a solid Pokemon that is ONLY a threat after setting up. It may also seem easy in theory, but in order to get your 100% HP Tail Glow you need to either:
    Lose a Pokemon
    Predict

    Many of those times Manaphy gets hit into 0hko range making it effectively a hassle to run or death fodder. You play a game of trade offs with Manaphy.

    More often than not Manaphy nets up to 2 kills, with that 2 being rare, against a good opponent. Sometimes it plays virtually no role, but it is not something that one just sweeps teams consistently with. Late game Manaphy excels, but so do plenty of other Pokemon. It just misses out on being good enough to be broken.
     
  33. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    The fact that after setting up, it's promised a kill is a reason to suspect it in it's own right. Earlier, someone posted a list of mons and bolded the ones that Manaphy can set up on, he missed a few and also ignored that fact that Manaphy doesn't have to set up to kill something. It had 100 SpA, that's enough to kill most of these without a boost. I italicized the ones it can set up on or stay in with minimal risk and bolded the ones it can just plain attack. If you have your Salamence in on a Manaphy, you're forced to sack. Switch out and you risk him setting up. The Manaphy player is in control in most of these 1 on 1s. With a bit of prior damage, Zapdos, Weavile, and Medicham are also pretty easily killed.

    Gardevoir 13.4615 9314
    Medicham 13.4225 9287
    Victini 12.6189 8731
    Crawdaunt 11.2661 7795
    Chandelure 11.0565 7650
    Weavile 10.912 7550
    Zapdos 10.1995 7057
    Mew 10.0983 6987
    Terrakion 10.013 6928
    Breloom 9.89307 6845

    Heracross 9.78034 6767
    Florges 9.13718 6322
    Diggersby 9.12851 6316
    Salamence 9.10538 6300

    Blastoise 8.0561 5574
    Metagross 7.89856 5465
    Jirachi 7.83497 5421
    Aggron 7.16579 4958
    Arcanine 7.04728 4876
    Darmanitan 6.7799 4691


    Manaphy is very threatening when it's at +3 or god forbid +6, but it can dent things at neutral as well. Some of the anti-ban for Manaphy on this thread have said things along the lines of "The Manaphy player will always set-up". No, they won't. They don't have to and a good/decent player won't tail glow if the opponent has a specs Raikou or a scarf ThundT (or something with these levels of power and speed). That's like saying Salamence sets up when the opponent has a Weavile. Manaphy can easily just scald and switch out. 100 SpA means that even without a boost, scald hurts, as well as the chance of a burn as well.

    tldr; It's a lot more complicated than "Manaphy can only set up on X mons"
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2014
  34. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    100 attack is actually very weak when you're not boosted at all. The damage pre-tail glow is only noticeable on offensive threats without any defensive investment, as things like Zapdos easily living Ice Beam and victini living a +0 Surf as long as it doesn't have SR damage on it. That's why so much emphasis is on being able to get that boost; Manaphy simply can't hit hard enough without it.
     
  35. DSM01

    DSM01 Jammin' out

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    I don't know if it's possible to tell whether or not Manaphy is broken because how strong the rest of UU is. As it stands right now I think Manaphy is very solidly UU. I agree with what Celebi. said—it's not easy to have your Manaphy at full health before setting up, it usually only nets 1-2 kills per game, and sometimes it doesn't do much at all. In my experience both using and playing against Manaphy, it just doesn't have what it takes to sweep teams. Sure, it will net one kill, but it's middling speed and mandatory set up turn (you can't sweep at +0) leave it vulnerable before and after it sets up. I know in theory/suspect discussions revenge killing is a poor argument, but in practice Manaphy isn't a problem at all.

    But what about slower teams that can't easily revenge kill it? This segues nicely into my second point, which is (at the risk of sounding like ThatMushroom) that the entire metagame is broken. Every team can revenge kill Manaphy because every team is HO with 6 Sashers (barely an exaggeration). If some of these broken mons were banned, maybe then we would see that Manaphy is too strong for UU. Until then, it's just broken checking broken, with Manaphy being on the losing end of the exchange more often than not.
     
  36. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    I don't think your main reason for not wanting to ban Manaphy should be because everything else's brokenness makes Manaphy seem less broken. It also seems like due to your experiences with playing these disgusting HO teams you've come to a warped view that Manaphy isn't as good as it seems because these sashed monstrosities can deal with it quite easily. This is a bad way of looking at it imo, you have to take into account that not everyone will run this kind of gross HO and look at it from the perspective of nice and clean balanced/stall teams. The fact is that AV/SpDef Snorlax is pretty much the only thing in the tier that can handle it. Again, Empoleon can only really Roar it out. The thing sets up on a lot of the tier somewhat easily. Going back to Windblown's list of the top 20 of I believe March, I'll bold what it can set up on rather safely. The ones that are underlined are a bit more risky but it's guaranteed to live 1 hit and probably 1HKO it back.
    Gardevoir 13.4615 9314
    Medicham 13.4225 9287
    Victini 12.6189 8731
    Crawdaunt 11.2661 7795
    Chandelure 11.0565 7650
    Weavile 10.912 7550
    Zapdos 10.1995 7057
    Mew 10.0983 6987
    Terrakion 10.013 6928
    Breloom 9.89307 6845
    Heracross 9.78034 6767
    Florges 9.13718 6322
    Diggersby 9.12851 6316
    Salamence 9.10538 6300
    Blastoise 8.0561 5574
    Metagross 7.89856 5465
    Jirachi 7.83497 5421
    Aggron 7.16579 4958
    Arcanine 7.04728 4876
    Darmanitan 6.7799 4691


    That's 12 out of the top 20 (I think it was for March) that it can set up on rather easily. That's a lot for a mon as devestating as Manaphy, to be able to set up to +3 in one turn with that much bulk behind on 12 of the top 20 mons.

    Word.

    Again, it's just a really bad way of looking at it. I know HO is everywhere but you can't tailor your decisions based around one playstyle. Before someone mentions me and stall, I dropped stall..stall is bad, HO dominates.
     
  37. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    Ok, so @ThatMushroom
    Weavile, Mence, Diggersby, and Crawdaunt all SEVERELY weaken Manaphy. Like to a point where it becomes a dead weight. This is part of the trade off I mentioned earlier. With Manaphy you either:
    Dent something and get dented/switch
    KO something and get dented
    Both situations put Manaphy in a position to be easily disposed of.
    Florges and Mew can semi toxic/burn stall essentially doing the same thing as the Pokemon listed above.
    Of the remaining 6, Aggron can carry Twave (or am I the only one) that renders Manaphy essentially useless. These "12 mons that it can set up on rather easily" turn out to be 6 SAFE MONS TO SET UP ON. All of the rest provide drawbacks that Manaphy does not want to risk.

    I'd would also like to comment on:
    This is a bad way of looking at it imo, you have to take into account that not everyone will run this kind of gross HO and look at it from the perspective of nice and clean balanced/stall teams.

    When the majority of the metagame is offensively oriented, whether it be HO or offensively based balanced teams, what good does it do to look at the metagame from the perspective or a severely limited play style, one that will typically result in disadvantageous match up regardless of whether Manaphy is being used or not?
     
  38. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    When looking at (Scarf) Mence and Weavile, you have to keep in mind that for most teams these are the fastest mons on their team. With these removed, Manaphy is sitting at +3 with a solid enough speed tier to outpace most of the meta and enough power/perfect coverage to rip apart anything not named AV Lax. Even super HO teams don't usually carry more than 1 scarfer.

    It seems like you're not considering balanced or stall teams whatsoever. These situations are vs. very offensive teams who try to never let things set up (not just Manaphy but mons like Thundy-T, Scolipede, etc), and will do things like switch into something like a Weavile on a predicted Tail Glow and sack their Weav to a Surf just so they can get the Knock Off damage. I mean even then, you're left sacking (probably) your fastest mon and it didn't even kill Manaphy..it's left sitting at +3. Balanced teams who don't have AV Snorlax will often have to sack a mon to Manaphy just so they can switch into their Scarfer, and stall teams who don't have Lax will usually just get run through unless they Roar with Empoleon or something.

    Well the most common scenario is that these mons come into Manaphy right as it sets up to +3. At that point they can status but will get outsped and 2HKOed..so you sacked your Florges to get a Toxic on Manaphy which really isn't that useful because Lefties will cancel out most of the beginning stages of Toxic, giving it enough time to seriously dent your team. Florges is also most commonly seen on stall/balanced teams and, stall especially, if they don't have AV Lax they'll have to keep sacking mons until Manaphy dies to Toxic. So Florges and Mew are pretty much set-up fodder for Manaphy.

    The ones I've seen most are RestTalk with rocks and STAB, or STAB and EQ..but Twave is a good choice. Though Manaphy is still going to be at near max HP after you sack Agg because Agg isn't going to do shit with Heavy Slam. At that point if your revenge killer is not Specs Thundy-T, Manaphy is probably going to live almost anything and take that out as well.

    Well I know for a fact myself (with 2 nicknames), Red Son Deathstroke, and Xdevo do not run HO and we've been top 10 for a while, though Xdevo has peaked and dropped several times. Personally I use balanced defense, and I know Xdevo uses full stall, so these types of teams can be successful in the right hands/good teambuilding etc. So no, we shouldn't base bans purely on one playstyle.
     
  39. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    I don't know if you actually read through my post or not, but I'll start from the bottom and go up. I believe that I said offensively oriented teams were the direction the majority of the metagame was leaning towards. Never did I say anything about stall being impossible. I just stated that it WILL TYPICALLY RESULT IN DISADVANTAGES MATCH UPS. The key word here is typically meaning that more often than not a defensive/stall/balanced team is going to be at a disadvantage. So why would the minority of a metagame have a majority impact in whether or not a Pokemon gets banned?

    Aggron was on of the 6 I said was "safe to set up on". Aggron is also not a bad phazer. It can't do too much in return but the little damage it can goes a long way unless of course you just phaze it out with Dtail/Roar.

    I don't think you are understanding the point of what Florges and Mew are doing. They are weakening Manaphy so a fellow teammate can handle it accordingly. These generalizations are a bit much though...

    I didn't consider those teams because again, they are the minority and are typically disadvantageous to run. I don't know what world you are living in where people sac their fastest mon to do damage on something they can't otherwise outspeed, but any opponent worth anything would never do something like that.

    I also love how you keep bringing up AV Lax... lol, anyway, I mentioned took away 6 of those mons from your "Safe to set up on in the top 20 list" because 1 on 1 Manaphy does not simply set up on those Pokemon and have a field day. When you say something is "safe to set up on" I envision two Pokemon in play, one boosts a stat however it wants and the other attacks. This situation giving little to no repercussions for the set up mon. Your counter argument to my post is assuming the fact that Manaphy is in first and these mons are switching into Manaphy. This does not fall under the category of "safe to set up on" because Manaphy is not setting up on that Pokemon, it is simply setting up before said Pokemon comes into play.
     
  40. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    It's actually more common on the top of the ladder (like top 20) than it is the bottom 20 of page 1 on to page 3 and so forth. Around page 2 and stuff I see a lot more varied teams, but yes offense is the most common, but when has it not been that way? Pretty much every meta I can think of has had offense as its most common playstyle, this isn't going to change and it shouldn't be what you base bans on.

    I honestly match up pretty well with HO a large majority of the time. When I was running spikeless stall it was a nightmare, but balanced defense is what I've been going with and it is night and day.

    Balanced and stall are not used so little to the point they should be disregarded. I'd say it is at least 60 offense-40 balanced/stall from what I've seen. I mean even the top 10 of ladder, even though like 5 is HO, has a good mix of teams..so that's 50-50 right there. It's just a bad argument, offense will always be the most accessible playstyle in any tier and basing bans off of that is foolish.

    Unless Aggron is in a 1v1 situation, it's not going to phaze out Manaphy successfully. +3 Tail Glow OHKOes it before it can phaze it out, and unboosted Surf does around 45% to it.

    Yes because the idea of Toxicing is so incomprehensible. At best they will get 15% on Manaphy after Leftovers, nothing except shit like Mega Manectric is going to come in, outspeed and OHKO it and 85% health. Scarf Mence's Outrage, for example, is going to do around 62% and it'll die to Ice Beam.

    Slight theorymon:
    If Manaphy is going to outspeed the rest of your team, you are going to want to make sure that thing does not get to +6. Forcing it to stay at +3 because you switch in your Weav on its first Tail Glow is the best play in that situation, especially because Weavile can't OHKO it anyway. Any opponent worth anything would realize that.

    Because it's the only thing in the tier that can handle Manaphy and at the same time do actual damage to it to not become set-up fodder (max HP max Attack AV). Have you even been paying attention to the previous discussions?

    This is a fair point, but if you want to look at it from the 1v1 perspective, it is 8 out of the top 20 mons in this tier. That is ridiculous for something as nightmarish as Manaphy. Your entire argument seems like it's based wholly on looking at offense and you haven't mentioned once that this thing has pretty much one mon in the tier that can attempt to call itself a counter.
    Something with that much bulk, good speed, a move that gives it +3, perfect coverage, and basically one mon that somewhat counters it that isn't even common whatsoever (at 3.8% usage last month) is just too good, not even including it's ability to cremate everything under rain with bulky CM.
     
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