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[Grammar] Zygarde

Discussion in 'UU Analyses' started by Celebi., Mar 30, 2014.

  1. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    Zygarde
    [​IMG]
    -General-
    Zygarde is yet another Ground/Dragon type Pokemon brought to us by the new generation. Facing stiff competition from other Dragons, Zygarde fell into the realms of UU where it carved a niche no other Pokemon could compare to. Zygarde boats well above average bulk in its 108/121/95 defenses that are better than that of Hippowdon. This in combination with a Stealth Rock resistance makes Zygarde a great defensive Pokemon, but what really sets Zygarde apart is access to both Coil and Dragon Dance as boosting options. Zygarde’s offensive movepool is very limited making it easy to predict, but its STAB moves have unresisted coverage. A lack of Dragon Claw means you have to rely on Outrage which isn’t the most user-friendly move in the game.

    Zygarde’s support movepool, on the other hand, holds a variety of great moves, but unfortunately for you, these moves aren’t always viable. All this being said, Zygarde can play both and offensive and a defensive role in the UU tier and is a threat no matter how you use it.

    -Bulky Dragon Dance-

    Zygarde @ Lum Berry / Leftovers / Yache Berry
    Trait: Aura Break
    EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Dragon Dance
    - Earthquake
    - Outrage
    - Stone Edge / Extreme Speed / Substitute

    -Set Comments-
    Dragon Dance boosts Zygarde’s average offensive stats to make it threatening as a sweeper. Earthquake is there for a reliable offensive STAB move. Outrage rounds off STAB coverage, and the last slot is up to the user to decide. Stone Edge gives Zygarde the famous EdgeQuake combination, Extreme Speed helps Zygarde pick off faster opposing Pokemon, and Substitute helps Zygarde avoid status. With such great natural bulk, Zygarde can set up a Substitute freely on most defensive Pokemon. The EV’s on this set maximize bulk and offensive power while using Zygarde’s mediocre speed to its advantage. At +1 Zygarde outspeeds Base 125’s, namely Weavile, and at +2 Zygarde outspeeds Scarfed base 108’s. This means that at +2, Zygarde outspeeds all other Scarfed or +1 speed Dragons in the tier bar Scarf Latias which is rarely seen.

    The Confusion from Outrage is a bit annoying, but Lum Berry helps with that, in most cases. The Lum Berry also helps with stray Toxic’s and Will-O-Wisp’s. The choice between ExtremeSpeed and Stone Edge depends heavily on what you want to hit. Extreme Speed helps with Weavile and other weakened Pokemon, but Stone Edge hits Levitators harder meaning you don’t have to lock yourself into Outrage. Substitute can be used over the other two moves, but it is only recommended with Leftovers. If you want to go more on the offensive side, you can run a spread of 36 HP / 252 Att / 216 Spe. This spread outspeed neutral base 90’s (Lucario) and Positive base 80’s (Pre-Mega Gardevoir and Chandelure). The latter two typically don’t want to switch into Zygarde in the first place, but it is nice to know. Yache Berry is also a viable item was it helps taking Ice Shard’s from Weavile, but the other items are typically better.


    -Coil-

    Zygarde @ Leftovers
    Trait: Aura Break
    EVs: 188 HP / 16 Def / 252 SDef / 52 Spe
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Coil
    - Substitute
    - Extreme Speed / Stone Edge / Dragon Tail

    -Set Comments-
    This Zygarde set helps Zygarde abuse its above average defenses. 188 HP EV’s gives Zygarde the nice HP stat of 404. This means Seismic Toss and Night Shade need to hit twice in order to break the Substitute. Special Defense is maximized because Coil boosts the defense stat and that well round out Zygarde’s defenses as well as accuracy to avoid Stone Edge misses. The 52 Speed EV’s mean Zygarde creeps base 100’s to avoid Will-o-Wisp from Mew and Toxic from Defensive Zapdos. This allows Zygarde to use them as set-up bait. The rest of the EV’s are thrown into Defense because it is more useful than Attack.

    This set can effectively sweep teams mid late game. However, learning to use this Zygarde well takes a bit of practice before you master it. Earthquake is used as your primary STAB move which can either be complemented by Stone Edge for EdgeQuake coverage, or Extreme Speed for priority to help overcome the low speed. The decision maker here should be pure choice. Whatever you feel most comfortable playing with, use. Dragon Tail is another completely viable move that allows for you to avoid phasing from slower opponents.

    -Physically Defensive-

    Zygarde @ Leftovers / Rocky Helmet
    Trait: Aura Break
    EV's: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Impish Nature ( +Def , -SAtk )
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Dragon Tail
    - Earthquake

    -Set Comments-
    Physically Defensive Zygarde laugh at Victini, Darmanitan, Arcanine, and most Fire types and physical attackers in the tier. If you aren't hitting with SE damage you will have a hard time taking Zygarde down. It abuses bulk better than that of Hippowdon with arguably worse Recovery. Rest allows Zygarde to cure status like Burns, and Toxic that would otherwise plague walls, but he relies on Sleep Talk to not be useless while resting. With that said, 33% of the time Zygarde will be useless while asleep. This Zygarde doesn't hit very hard given it is uninvested, but is still nothing to disregard when facing it. Dragon Tail is the phazing move of choice which also gets a nice STAB bonus. This gives Zygarde the ability to phaze through Taunt, but relies on 90% accuracy to actually phaze. Rocky Helmet is a viable option to further punish Physical attackers while Leftovers helps add to Zygarde's survivability. Whatever your preferred item is, Hazards along with this Zygarde phazing can quickly rack up damage against opposing Pokemon.

    -Other Options-
    * Glare/Dragon Tail Parashuffler
    *Toxic for Quagsire and other walls that don't appreciate status
    *Coil + RestTalk Set
    *Non-Bulky Dragon Dance (EV's in the set comments of the bulky)
    *Jolly nature on Bulky DD set and more bulk
    *Sub/DD with EV spread of 188hp/136atk/64sdef/120spe with Adamant nature.
    *LO and Band are viable. Band suffers from lack of speed and LO hates Outrage confusion.

    -Teammates-
    Jirachi - Switches into Florges with no problems. Can set up hazards and provide Wish support.

    Hard hitting special attackers - They beat the Slowbro's of the tier that like to switch into Zygarde hoping to wall it.

    Anything that sets up hazards. Phazing and hazards are best friends.

    Steel Types - Resist Dragon, Fairy, and Ice moves aimed at Zygarde. Zygarde does a pretty good job taking Fighting, Ground, and Fire attacks aimed at Steels.

    Special Walls - Round off Physical/Special cores. They patch Zygarde's Special weakness, and Pokes with Wish can potentially help Zygarde not rely on Rest to recover all the time.

    I can be more specific if I need to, but lots of time a general answer leads to more variablity in teams and teammates.

    -Checks and Counters-
    Quagsire - With Unaware Zygarde is essentially useless. Can't do much of anything in return.
    Weavile - Strong Ice attacks are Zygarde worst enemy.
    Band/Specs users - They can hit Zygarde hard enough to break subs. This makes it difficult for the Coil Set.
    Other Dragons - Haxorus, Hydreigon, and Mence outspeed. Noivern outspeeds and hits through subs.
    Granbull - Intimidate + good defenses. Checks the DD set but not the Coil set.
    Mega Gardevoir - Has super effect Hyper Voice that hits through subs.
    Other Fairies - Are typically bulky and hit hard with STAB.
    Levitators/Flying types - Coil set doesn't fare too well against them, and Espeed/Stone Edge only have 8 PP.
    Whimsicott - Resists both STAB's. Can Encore into Outrage/Dtail/Boosting move. Does pretty good damage with Moonblast.
    Bulky Waters with Ice Beam.
    Steels/Fairies can play around Outrage, but only if Zygarde is baited properly. Risky situation
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2014
  2. VuvuzelaΒzz

    VuvuzelaΒzz •Sage

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    Maybe clarify that you mean neutral coverage over Super Effective coverage here.

    I'm not convinced this is truly worth mentioning, but I guess it doesn't hurt.

    [secret]
    If you're packing Substitute on that set, Lum usually isn't worth it.[/secret]
    I think you mean "Susceptible to heavy hits".
     
  3. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    Remove Dragon Dance from the coil set, no reason to list coil if you are gonna use dd.

    I think you should make a substitute+dd set, because it is played differently from dd+3 attacks. The ev spread for sub+dd would be 188hp/136atk/64sdef/120spe with Adamant nature. 120 speed evs let you outrun weavile after a dd, 188hp gives you 404hp for 101 subs, 136atk give you a jump point in attack and rest is put in special defense so slowbro can't break your sub with scald. Really efficient ev spread tbh.
    4 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 188 HP / 64 SpD Zygarde: 84-100 (20.7 - 24.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

    i'll edit this post later after dinner
     
  4. Arceus_17

    Arceus_17 Avoid eye contact

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    You might mention somewhere that its ability is useless. Also if the second set's name is "Coil", the move Coil shouldn't be slashed with anything.
    Good job, btw
     
  5. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Personally I'd change the Coil set to:

    Zygarde @ Leftovers
    Trait: Aura Break
    Careful Nature (+SDef -SAtk)
    EV: 252 HP / 136 SDef / 120 Spd
    Coil
    Earthquake
    Stone Edge / Dragon Tail
    Substitute

    120 Spd outruns 252 speed Adamant Diggersby. HP is maximised for maximum overall bulk, with the rest placed in special defence, since you're not boosting that stat. Earthquake and Stone Edge form the EdgeQuake combination, unresisted in UU apart from Bronzong and Breloom. The former is set up fodder, the latter is 2HKOd by a +2 Earthquake damn near every time. Substitute lets you avoid status problems. You could use Dragon Tail to stop Zygarde getting phazed out.
     
  6. Virizion

    Virizion ~ Taste the Rainbow ~

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    Mention a Life Orb and Choice Band in the OO, that thing can seriously hit hard right off the bat despite being really underrated (and mention it's drawbacks too). A Specially Defensive Set can always work there too.

    You could mention Haze also if you really wanted to under the Coil&DD explanations, but that's just me.

    Otherwise, good analysis. :)
     
  7. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Don't bother slashing DD on the Coil set.

    Another set that I think is really effective, but not oft seen is Physically Defensive

    Zygarde @ Leftovers
    Trait: Aura Break
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Dragon Tail
    - Earthquake

    Can easily take on the Physical Fire types in the tier such as Darm/Tini/Arcanine, and is generally a great Physical wall able to avoid the 2HKO from things like CB Terrakion, and the OHKO from +2 LO Diggersby. Max HP gives it reasonable Special bulk as well.

    Worth a set imo.

    Also 108|121|95 Bulk is farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr above 'average'.

    Also I'd suggest removing Chandelure and adding Bronzong and maybe Granbull in Checks/Counters
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2014
  8. Arceus_17

    Arceus_17 Avoid eye contact

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    Bronzong, unless it has the obscure HP Ice is setup bait for the Coil set. Granbull is ok.. And yh remove Chandelure...
     
  9. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    At school but I'll add some changes later. I'll take DD off the Coil set. Add Vuvu's wording changes. The C&C list was sorta hard for me because in all my ladder battles with it i came across like two things. Life Orb and Band will be OO'd.

    I'm not sure about giving a set to the physically defensive one, but if more people agree I will. I'll OO it for now.

    I might also need to add that EV's can be incredibly varied. More so than any other Pokemon I've really come into contact with. Makes it a little difficult to EV sets because of it.
     
    TraceofLife likes this.
  10. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Must be a really long school week.

    Since this has been sitting here, locking. PM me or one of the QC members if you want this unlocked.
     
  11. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Just as a general rule of thumb, even if you have to double post to bump it make sure you explicitly say that you've made changes and are waiting for further QC. Going to make a general post about that as well.

    Unlocked due to request
     
  12. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    Waiting for QC
     
  13. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Delta Stream

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    Hi, sorry for the delay.

    For the DD set, a standard 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd should be used with your bulky spread mentioned in the set comments with the set name of "Dragon Dance". The spread I just said is by far the most common variant of Zygarde you will see on the ladder, and it does very well in the meta, and I don't see why you've relegated it all the way to a mid-OO mention. The slashes for the last slot of the set should be Extreme Speed / Stone Edge, with Substitute in set comments as a consideration if running the bulky spread and want to do SubDD.

    In the last moveslot of the Coil set, it should be Stone Edge / Dragon Tail, with Extreme Speed having either a set comments mention or not mentioned at all. When uninvested, Extreme Speed is incredibly weak and the priority is not worth it if you have to give up EdgeQuake coverage with Stone Edge or the shuffling that Dragon Tail allows. Just going to pull up a calc here to see how weak espeed is uninvested

    +2 0 Atk Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 142-168 (45.6 - 54%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO

    At +2 Attack, Zygarde could not even guarantee a 2HKO on Digg, and it has mediocre defenses at best.

    Also, a parashuffling set with Glare + DTail kinda like Drudd did last gen sometimes might be worth its own set, but I'll let other QC decide on that
     
  14. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    This is a little off topic, but does anyone else here find it annoying that Zygarde didn't get Dragon Rush? I mean, the move finally has a chance to be viable, and it gets denied. D:

    Also, one thing on the first set: Why 136 Speed EVs? Wouldn't it be worth investing just 12 more, so you can outrun base 130s at +1 (Jolteon anyone?) and OHKO before it can retaliate with HP Ice, which will REALLY hurt:

    252 SpA Life Orb Jolteon Hidden Power Ice vs. 108 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 322-380 (83.8 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Oh, it's also worth noting that 108 HP EVs takes Zygarde to a Lefties number, if that appeals? Even not odd, but that SR resistance helps.

    EDIT: I do note that it's unlikely you'll find a Jolteon switching into a DD Zygarde, but hey.
     
  15. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    @Epikhairz
    Also a bit late cause studying for AP tests, but my replies:
    I don't find a standard 252/252/4 set to be really effective. I find no reason to run 252 Speed (may be overlooking something). I neglected itat +1. until the end because I've yet to find a good reason for it. At +1 you still are still slower than +1 Haxorus, Scarf Hydreigon Scarfed 100's, +1 100's which are all notable threats to you want to be faster than.
    Stone Edge is a good mention, completely forgot about that :P

    Extreme Speed is there to pick of weakened mons. That is the sole purpose. The Coil set will be taking lots of hits and chances are you aren't going to be at the greatest HP when attacking so to alleviate that and help with some recovery. It also helps avoid what would otherwise 2hko it. Extreme Speed picks off mons weakened by EQ. Using Dragon Tail hurts more than it helps. Plus the other two moves are far more beneficial. Losing EdgeQuake coverage is not that big of a problem to be completely honest. Neither is shuffling from Dragon Tail.

    @Spoovo The Pirate
    Ev's mean you outspeed Scarf 108's at +2 and base 125's at +1 (260 speed). I guess adding 12 more wont hurt too badly, but I didn't take Jolteon into consideration purely because it's not common.
    I also don't know Lefties/LO HP's. The HP was just put there to improve bulk after Speed calcs. I don't see any harm in changing them so I think I will. I don't think odd HP is too much of a big deal on Zygarde because of the Rocks resistance.
     
  16. Daybreak

    Daybreak can't touch this

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    The only thing I could see being "useful" with max speed is speed tying with darmanitan which zygarde takes on very well with hp investment anyways so the ev spread is fine on dd. You could make mention of spoovo's speed creep for jolteon at +1 in the set comments, but it isn't too common so it's up to you.

    Also I tried out physically defensive zygarde a while back (the set afro showed) and it should deserve it's own set. Great wall for all the fire types in the tier and just takes hits like nuts.
     
  17. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    Need to start using Phys Def Zygarde again in UU to add more quality set comments.
    Checks n Counters list is going to need to revamping because tier changes.
     
  18. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Delta Stream

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    @Celebi. is this ready to be QC checked again? This hasn't been edited in almost 20 days and you haven't posted saying that changes have been done completely, so I'm not quite sure.

    Anyways, I don't have much experience with Physically Defensive Zygarde, so I'll let @Daybreak and @Afro Smash handle this because they have extensive knowledge with the set iirc.

    Also don't even mention speed creeping Jolteon that thing is garbdix and never used in UU
     
  19. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    @Epikhairz
    Yea it is. I've had graduation and have been trying the set out, and I personally find Physically Defensive Zygarde to be "outclassed" by Arcanine, and Rhyperior primarily. I don't like it, but if Daybreak and/or Afro Smash wanna help with the set I'd greatly appreciate it.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2014
  20. just2bquiet

    just2bquiet Member

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    You can also put 52 speed EV's on the coil set in order to speedcreep base 100s such as will-o-mew and use them as setup-bait.
     
  21. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Well it resists Rocks, can phaze and can cure Status by itself so requires much less support than Arcanine. I find it to be effective but im happy for it to just be placed in OO. Also I agree with Anton's suggestion, good for avoiding Toxic from Zapdos and Will o from Mew. I have not used other Zygarde sets too much so I'll let other QC evaluate those.
     
  22. Daybreak

    Daybreak can't touch this

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    in set comments for resttalk:
    +108/ 121 defenses are greater then hippowdon's defenses
    +unlike hippo is resistent to water so it able to take hits from water types like crawdaunt
    +can cure status w/ rest
    -can't hit hard at all
    -relies on dragon tail to stop pokemon setting up on it

    in addition to set comments you have
     
  23. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    Bolded the new changes so they are easier to see.
    Thanks @Anton , completely forgot that Zygarde could creep those.

    @Afro Smash
    Yea I know. Just in terms of pure walling ability I find those to be "better". Maybe I'm using it to fill the wrong role, but ehhhhh. This also isn't an analysis based off of what I like or find the most useful. I other people like the set than it is just as viable as anything I say. Like I feel like RestTalk Mega Aggron is better for that job.

    @Daybreak
    Added those changes. Zygarde is neutral to water and not resistant though.

    I'm also a complete loss for the Extreme Speed vs Stone Edge choice on the Coil set. I found them both to be equally effective, but for different situations and teams. I suppose I could write that up but I want to see what you guys think.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2014
  24. Windblown

    Windblown sable knight

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    A full out offensive DD set should probably have max attack and either 216 Speed EVs to outspeed Adamant Lucario or 240 to outspeed +Speed base 80s (not sure about this one, only one I can think of is Chandy/unevolved Gard, which isn't switching in usually), with the rest in HP. It plays a lot like the Bulky Dragon Dance set you already have listed so maybe add that EV spread in set comments.

    DracoNinja's EVs spread is very good too, allows Zygarde to set up on bulky waters (not just Slowbro, but Roar-less Empoleon and Suicune along with Milotic etc), though not sure if you'd change the main spread to that or put it in set comments. Oh it's in OO, but you should expand on what it does and what the EVs are there for.

    Dragon STAB is not a hindrance really even with Fairies. You could mention that the lack of Dragon Claw forces it to use Outrage which is not the safest of moves.

    I'm skeptical about having Florges in C&C as +1 EQ 2HKOs even physically defensive variants while Moonblast doesn't OHKO back, it's an okay answer I guess.
    Add Hydreigon to the list of Dragons that outspeed Zygarde (Latias could go here but she seems to move up and down tiers a lot)
    Suicune and Slowbro with Ice Beam are noteworthy answers to it.
    Whimsicott could be singled out as a Pokemon that resists both its STABs and can Encore it into a non-attacking move.
    Due to its lack of Dragon Claw you could explain how baiting it into Outrage means Steels and Fairies can potentially deal with it (might be going ot theory too much though)
     
  25. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    WINDBLOWN is smart and covered a lot of shit I would've said, but back-slash Rocky Helmet on PhysDef set, implant necessary changes, and we'll be on the path to approval.
     
  26. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    @Windblown
    Added comments. Thanks for the EV spread. I didn't have a full out offensive before because I didn't find an EV spread worth it.
    Also, is the 120 Speed worth anything with Diggersby being banned?
     
  27. Daybreak

    Daybreak can't touch this

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    Gatr ;-;

    No but seriously, just one last thing, last comment you made in bulky dd had yache and lefties but yache isn't listed as an item in the moveset. Just patch that last bit up. And yeah I meant neutral to water lol.

    QC 1/3
     
  28. Windblown

    Windblown sable knight

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    could bump it up a bit to outspeed Modest Chandy

    other than that seems like good job QC 2/3
     
  29. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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  30. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    Bumping for Grammar check
     
  31. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    Oops I made a mistake with the evs that I mentioned earlier. 188hp evs does give 101hp subs, but that means you can only sub 3 times without leftovers recovery, and 4 times with leftovers recovery, something which is not optimal. Change the ev spread listed to 200hp/136atk/52def/120spe so that it gives you both 101subs and allows you to sub 5 times, compared to 4 wth 404/405hp. Its really just a more optimal spread, and a tiny nitpick at my own suggestion. Also if possible could you elaborate why you should use this specific ev spread is better and should be used for all subdd sets on your analysis. This will greatly help newer users in an understanding on why you should use this specific ev spread, and how it works, instead of just blindly copying it.

    Should look something like this:
    200hp evs give you 407hp, which allows you to get 101hp substitutes (which mean seismic toss and night shade will fail to break your substitute every time), as well as allow you to substitute 5 times after factoring leftovers recovery. 136atk evs hit a jump point number, 120 spe evs allow you to outrun Weavile and the leftover evs are placed in special defense to take special hits better from pokemon who do not invest much in special attack like slowbro or amoongus, giving you ample time to set-up more dragon dances and increase your odds of sweeping your opponent's team.
     
  32. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    rest in ban