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[Inverted Battle] Snorlax Suspect

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Side Metagames' started by Roku, Apr 24, 2014.

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  1. Roku

    Roku sup nerds

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    [​IMG]

    Discuss the possibility of banning Snorlax from the Inverted metagame. Post intelligently based off of experience in the tier. Posts based off theorymon risk forum infractions.

    Attempt to find the checks and counters (or lack thereof) for Snorlax as well as its impact and power in the metagame. Do not simply say "it's broken" or "it's not broken". Back up your arguments on why you think it should be banned or not.

    If a consensus is reached, the result will likely be implemented in the metagame. Happy suspecting.
     
  2. Bamarah

    Bamarah "Baton Pass Elite"

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    Here's my stance...

    Clearly the Curselax set is one of the most dangerous things to happen in Inverted Battle.

    Snorlax(M) @Leftovers
    Trait: Immunity
    EVs: 4HP/252Atk/252SDef (You could also go 252HP/4HP Atk)
    Nature: Careful(+SDef,-SAtk)
    - Curse
    - Body Slam/Frustration/Return
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk


    With a nice ability like Immunity it can not be poisoned, having high Special Defense also helps as it can easily tank Special Attackers. So if you wanna stop it somewhat you only have 3 options burn, paralyze, or use Taunt. The problem with Taunt users is that most of them can't survive any of the attacks mentioned in the set from this beast. If you don't have Taunt, Rest doesn't care about Will-O-Whisp or Thunder Wave while it continues to set up with Sleep Talk. Pretty soon you will have to succumb to a +6 (In Attack & Defense) Curselax which will destroy anything in its path.


    While most people try to Roar it out I deal with it in a different matter.


    Weezing(M) @Lum Berry
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 124HP/124Atk/252Def/4Spd
    Nature: Lax(+Def,-SDef)
    - Clear Smog
    - Explosion
    - Pain Split
    - Taunt

    •Clear Smog: To eliminate any stat boosts.
    •Explosion: At 50% HP or less Snorlax will not survive.
    •Pain Split: Being that Snorlax has more HP than Weezing it will always gain more HP back.
    •Taunt: Effectively shutting down Curse, Rest, & Sleep Talk.



    While Weezing is a Defensive wall to some degree it can take some good hits from Curselax even at +1. By having Lum Berry you can shake off paralysis from Body Slam but be aware because if it paralyzes you again you most likely will lose the battle.

    I have used this set strictly for a one on one situation against Curselax. Counter? Maybe? Check? Absolutely!


    Some notable checks:

    •Azumarill: Hits hard with Choice Banded Waterfall.
    •Diggersby: Hits super hard with Frustration or Return.
    •Breloom: Can Spore, SD, then use Bullet Seed but Snorlax can hit back with Sleep Talk.
    •Gengar: It can use Shadow Ball but it's too frail to take a super effective Normal type attack.
    •Gothitelle: With a set like Calm Mind / Psyshock / Reflect / Taunt it's more of a 50/50 even though it can trap with Shadow Tag it might not be able to handle repeated Normal type attacks especially if it's at +1.



    My opinion: Ban
     
  3. [TR]qazyu9090

    [TR]qazyu9090 New Member

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    Hi guys

    Snorlax is a real beast in inverted. In my opinion, any team should have a counter for snorlax otherwise it will sweep all ur team. It can be countered by trik and roar.
    Avalugg is one of the counter since it can use roar and has a huge def and the move recover. Another counter for snorlax is snorlax itself, (a stall war war end by a critical hit).
    As bamarah said diggersby can hit it very hard before starts curse, but after 1 or 2 curse diggersby can do nothing.

    For me, u should ban snorlax and diggersby together. otherwise, dont ban snorlax.

    (09:53:55) ±Porygon: Your rank in Inverted Battle is 1/367 [1250 points / 22 battles]!
     
  4. Windblown

    Windblown sable knight

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    That spread is probably inefficient, I've never used Lax but I feel the Curse set might go something like this:

    Snorlax(M) @Leftovers
    Trait: Thick Fat
    EVs: 248 HP/170 Def/92 SDef
    Nature: Careful(+SDef,-SAtk)
    - Curse
    - Body Slam
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk

    EVs allow you to avoid the 2HKO from CB Diggersby at +1 then +2 so it goes like this: Diggersby switches in on Lax as it Curses, takes max 55% as Lax Curses again, and then takes max 41% so Lax can Rest up, allowing you to set up fairly easily. The EVs also allow you to not get 2HKOed by Specs Porygon-Z's Uproar. Edit: Scratch that, you can't Rest while Uproar is going on, so Pory-Z will be able to weaken it to the point where a bunch of things can revenge it, but Pory-Z will be 2HKOed by +1 Normal Attack before it can KO with Uproar. Thick Fat is there because Rest means you don't care about being poisoned and you can tank some hits from Mega Charizard X or something if needed.

    The most used Lax spread is this however: Nature: Impish - EVs: 124 Atk / 252 Def / 132 SDef, which avoids the 2HKO from CB Dragonite using Outrage when you've already set up a Curse, but it's honestly less defensive this way and the attack EVs seem unecessary... my spread only has like a 2% chance to be 2HKOed by Dnite switching in on Curse if you Curse again, and that requires max rolls.

    So yeah, one option is to just attempt to break through Lax before it sets up too many boosts, but because it's accumulating defense boosts you can really only do this with special attackers (pretty sure there aren't much stronger than CB Nite and CB Diggersby in the physical department and they lose). Something like LO Aegislash might be able to 2HKO with Shadow Ball but that can't switch into Body Slam at all.

    I've never switched an attacker into Curselax, I've really only dealt with it by trapping it with Gothitelle and tricking it a scarf, or Encoring it into Curse, or switch a boosting attacker in and get as much damage off as I can. Sometimes I'll win (with Mega Pinsir or SD Diggersby) but Body Slam's paralysis chance means you might have to weaken it with one thing in order to revenge it with another. In the end, there's a good chance you're going to lose a Pokemon to it (see Bamarah's Weezing, which has to sacrifice itself to take it down).

    I wouldn't rely on Loom to sleep it and then SD up to beat it. Switching in on +1 Lax means it's doing an average of this much with Bullet Seed: 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. +1 248 HP / 172 Def Snorlax: 198-237 (37.8 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery. Sleep Talk means Lax could potentially pull a Curse or a crippling Body Slam on Loom, even though Breloom might be able to muscle past (3 hit Bullet Seed at +2 isn't an OHKO against +1 Lax, but it depends on the sleep).

    Why am I assuming Snorlax is at +1? Because it can come in on pretty much any defensive Pokemon (Avalugg and Chansey/Blissey/Porygon2, which are everywhere) and set up without the fear of being outstalled thanks to RestTalk. Other victims include Charizard Y, Celebi without Nasty Plot/Trick (you only have one shot, and no Celebi was using Nasty Plot LO until I started doing it), Greninja, Scarf Genesect, Zapdos, Mega Manectric, Mega Venusaur, Landorus-T, Rotom-W, and Victini. Honestly a bunch of these things might not be the best in Inverted but they're all above 4% usage so I named them. Meloetta needs CM and Psyshock to get through it (along with lucky Sleep Talk rolls and no paralysis) and other Psychics like Latios need Trick to cripple it.

    Obviously you won't be switching in Snorlax on stuff like Banded Scizor or Salamence but you can sac things needlessly to bring Snorlax in untouched, Curse a couple of times and then watch as your opponent will be unable to break through you. Phazing is a temporary solution, as last mon Curselax is probably the best way to ensure the sweep (unless Perish Song, but I've never seen that). You also outpace CM Cresselia to the kill in a 1v1 situation (they can't use Psyshock on you either because of Curse). Manaphy has like a 1% chance to 2HKO Snorlax at +3 with that spread unless it runs LO, but even then Lax will 2HKO at +2 or get a Body Slam para (or Return just straight out 2HKOs at +1).

    So yeah, I say Ban. <5 attackers can break through it and the most common way to beat it is Trick/a combination of Taunt and Will-o-Wisp (I used a standard defensive Mew for this purpose a few times)/Encore, all of which are a) uncommon and b) unreliable (especially Trick).
     
  5. [TR]qazyu9090

    [TR]qazyu9090 New Member

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    Hi guys

    Another solution to beat snorlax is the move endover used by aron for example that study ability. And as i said before snorlax not the only pok should be banned. There should be a package of pok that should be banned to improve the metagame of inverted.

    (09:53:55) ±Porygon: Your rank in Inverted Battle is 1/367 [1250 points / 22 battles]!

    Hi guys

    Sorry for the grammar mistake : that have sturdy* ability.

    Best regards.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 27, 2014
  6. DSM01

    DSM01 Jammin' out

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    Snorlax is near unstoppable once it gets going, so you usually have to switch in immediately and do something before it accrues too many Curses. It can easily nab a Curse against walls like Chansey and Avalugg without Roar but at +1 it still takes a ton from CB Diggersby and Dragonite, which can beat Snorlax if it's previously taken damage from hazards + Avalugg phazing. In my experience there are 2 ways most teams beat Lax: either phaze it early with hazards down and beat it late game with strong attackers, or hammer it with strong attackers early game, force Snorlax to Rest and then phaze it, and beat it later when it's asleep and less threatening. Both of these strategies require a durable phazer (read: Avalugg) and a very strong attacker that can hurt +1 Def Snorlax. Other ways to beat Snorlax include custom Weezing, Unaware Quagsire, and continuously keeping up offensive pressure (probably the most feasible way to beat it). Overall, I think Snorlax should be banned because it can set up without too much trouble, it's very hard to stop once it does set up, and you need Avalugg + Diggersby or complete HO to reliably beat it.
     
  7. Wasabi

    Wasabi New Member

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    About damn time. This thing can literally run one STAB attack and have perfect coverage and of course can also Curse to be unkillable. I mean it's a dream come true. A Curse+Rest+Sleep Talk set that only needs one attack? What more could you possibly want? Phazing is only a temporary solution as this thing's survivability in Inverted is nigh unrivaled and if your last poke is Snorlax and you're down 3 or 4 to 1 you can still win. And as people have shown about, Banded power houses can still be stopped with an appropriate EV spread.

    Easy decision here. Ban this guy
     
  8. Scatterbrain

    Scatterbrain You only live once*

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    I think I'm going to say ban
    My first five minutes of playing Inverted was all about keeping CurseLax and keeping him until the end -- call it an odd tactic but that's the extremity that the situation has risen to. Snorlax is a massive fucking tank on the special side and with the power of a couple Curses can be completely unkillable with the conjunciton of Sleep Talk and Return / Body Slam. (imo Return is a more superior option, the paralysis from Body Slam is never certain and you're going to end up killing their Pokemon anyway).

    I might try Physically Defensive Quagsire (since the only other Unaware user, Clefairy, has shitty typing, and 4x weak to Grass) but I'm still leaning on banning this thing. There's rarely anything that can tank a hit and/or phaze it out without paying some consequences.
     
  9. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Adding my support for a Snorlax ban here. There are little to no ways to stop Snorlax getting a sweep in Inverted and entire games are revolving around who sets up a Snorlax sweep with Curse. Pretty much nothing can touch Snorlax after 1 or 2 curses, phazing just makes it come back later and Unaware users suck and still can't outdamage +0 Snorlax. People are running all sorts of bizarre otherwise unviable sets and pokemon to attempt to check it.
     
  10. [TR]qazyu9090

    [TR]qazyu9090 New Member

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    Hi guys,
    will after playing a gd nimber of matches snorlax is a big threat and should be banned, but diggersby should be banned before because after 1 sd, it can kills everything with return and has a priority stab move quick attack that can hit very hard in any pok.
    Bye.
     
  11. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    This isn't a diggersby suspect. If you feel diggersby deserves a suspect or a ban please post in the potential suspect thread. Continued posts about Diggersby in this thread will lead to infractions.
     
  12. Wasabi

    Wasabi New Member

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    Just to say, I've even had to resort to completely niche sets like Physically defensive Mega venusaur to deal with Snorlax. I actually think this is a better counter.

    Basically, one move makes this set.

    Worry seed
    Giga Drain
    Leech Seed
    Synthesis

    Basically, change the opponent ability to Insomnia, and it stops Snorlax from resting. Leech seed+Giga Drain+Synthesis, easily stall snorlax out and any smart player would switch snorlax out before any lasting damage is done.

    I find this set also works well against ability reliant powerhouses like Huge Power diggersby, Reckless Staraptor locked into brave bird etc. Mind you this set has it's faults. But it's not the worst idea ever

    EDIT:

    Since no one else has posted, I'll also speak about a pokemon I tried last inverted battle. Basically a phazing sweeper, similar to the Circle Throw+Bulk Up combo popular with Throh. I used Zygarde,

    Zygarde
    Coil
    Dragon Tail
    Extremespeed
    Earthquake

    Basically the focus of this set is to take advantage of Snorlax. As he tries to set up, you counter by setting up yourself, and when comfortable, phaze him out, then you have the advantage. Curselax is basically set up bait for this set. And I swept 4-0 in the finals of an inverted tour against number 1 seed Tavi (Could have been 5-0 if not for foolish error) Anyways, this set pretty much makes Snorlax set up bait for Zygarde. Phazing Set-up sweepers like this, if you can replicate the effect should work nicely on Snorlax.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2014
  13. [TR]qazyu9090

    [TR]qazyu9090 New Member

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    hi guys,
    wasabi is right. Any pok that can phaze and set up at the same time can wrek curselax.btw, I saw this final and zygrade was doing well like hell.
    Bye.
     
  14. Dreams

    Dreams Active Member

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    You cant phaze it now can you? Also listing two mons which dont see much usage in the tier does not make it managable. Curselax is very hard to deal with and parafusions ruin your only "check" to it. Running unaware users solely to counter its normal spam should have made it obvious as to how broken it is in inverted- forced to run a niche mon solely to counter a specific threat . Ban please
     
  15. Roku

    Roku sup nerds

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    Due to the lack of dissenting opinions, Snorlax will be banned from the Inverted Battle tier. Thank you all who posted. Tiers will be updated on the server shortly.
     
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