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Suspect Discussion: Diggersby

Discussion in 'Gen 6 UU' started by Windblown, May 1, 2014.

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  1. Windblown

    Windblown Blinded, I can't see the end

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    [​IMG]

    Discuss the possibility of Diggersby being banned from the XY UU tier.

    Use this thread to discuss Diggersby's effect on the metagame. Talk about the different sets it can use, possible partners & team support, and potential checks & counters. State your opinion on whether you think Diggersby should be banned or if it should stay in the XY UU tier.

    All opinions are valid and discussion amongst players is not only allowed but encouraged, provided your judgment is backed with sound reasoning and validation coming from experience having played with / against Diggersby in the tier. Do not simply say "it's broken" or "it's not broken."

    Theorymon is not valid and may result in an infraction. This is also a reminder to address other people's arguments rather than the players themselves - we will be watching out for that.
     
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  2. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    What I posted in post #57 is still relevant, and I believe this pretty much sums up Digg so I will just copy-paste this.

    First I'll start off with potential counters. They're all complete shit in this meta. Phydef Rotom-N, Drifblim, Gourgeist, physdef Mismagius, physdef Bronzong, and Trevenant. These are your options if you want a solid answer to Digg. Trev, in my opinion, is probably the most viable out of all these mons simply because of Harvest Sitrus giving it some recovery, but still it is really bad in this meta and will most likely drop to LU. The others are like 1.9% usage and under, Bronzong is good when ran specially defensive but physdef lowers its viability a lot. Things you think might be good against it like physdef Tangrowth and Cofag both take around 55%/60% respectively on the switch in and get outspeed and KOed.

    It threatens every playstyle in the tier. Almost all of it's sets are universal threats. Banded, Scarf, and LO/Sash SD all put in a lot of work against all kinds of teams, some teams just deal slightly easier with certain sets.

    Offense deals a bit easier with Banded Digg but banded Quick Attack is still really fucking powerful, and Digg has enough bulk to eat up a hit from almost any non super effective attack from common offensive mons like Salamence ( Scarf Adamant Outrage does like 83%) and OHKO it back with respective STAB. 85/77/77 defenses aren't bad. Also nothing on offensive teams is going to want to switch into a Banded Return. Even shit like Victini with good bulk gets 1HKOed by Return. Now against balanced/stall teams, Banded Digg will just fucking rip through your squad. Stall teams especially, which usually lack speed, often get plowed through. Even something like a max max Amoonguss takes 75% from Banded Return on the switch in and gets outsped and KOed.

    Balanced/stall deals a bit easier with Scarf, but it's still an enormous threat. Physdef Amoongus, for example, takes like 50% from Scarf Return. Digg can also get really annoying with U-turn for balanced/stall teams, slowly wearing things down until it comes in and cleans up. Scarf Digg has a field day with offense though, outspeeding things like MegaCham, Garde, Crawdaunt, Mienshao etc. All these mons barring bulky ass Manaphy get straight up 1HKOed by Scarf Return. U-turn is going to put a lot of pressure on offensive teams because no offensive mon can really switch into a Scarf Return, so you can send in something to hopefully sack it so you can try to revenge Digg and put some pressure on the Digg user but he/she can just continually U-turn. I think Digg is the strongest mon in the game that has access to U-turn, the fact that it can get switch advantage and also have that much power behind it is unreal.

    Now we get to LO/Sash SD, which in my opinion are the most threatening variants of Digg. There's no playstyle that has an advantage in dealing with this set. Balanced/Stall teams get crunched because nothing in this tier is can handle its dual STAB at +2 with LO.

    Physdef Amoonguss = OHKOed
    Slowbro = OHKOed
    Physdef Zapdos = OHKOed
    Chesnaught = OHKOed
    Physdef Florges = OHKOed
    Mega Aggron = OHKOed
    Intimidate Arcanine = OHKOed

    Against offensive teams, +2 LO Quick Attack will straight up OHKO shit like Weavile. Sash SD is also extremely viable and is probably its best set, this set is more suited vs offense though but +2 Digg is still a nightmare defense/balanced as well. With its sash intact, Digg is guaranteed minimum 1 kill vs offensive teams. +2 Quick Attack can also seriously dent whatever comes in to try to revenge it, doing like 80% to Crawdaunt, has a chance to OHKO Mega Garde, 85% to Infernape, etc. all without Life Orb.

    Also, please refer to meeps's post #101 in the previous potential suspect thread if you feel like Digg has trouble keeping its sash intact (tldr, it doesn't).

    There's no way you could defend this thing. What I'm going to see is "it has trouble coming in", but everything has trouble coming into this meta (excluding walls of course), not just Digg. Please ban this thing quickly so we can move on to Mega Hera.
     
  3. Lameflame

    Lameflame Active Member

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    I don't have too much to add to ThatMushroom's post since the analysis of legitimate checks/counters to switch-in about sums it up. The Life Orb set pushes Diggersby over the edge for me given the lack of UU-viable checks and counters, the ability to change moves and the very low cost in predicting wrong.

    I normally don't provide sparse analysis like this in suspect threads, but at +2, something anything is dead on switch in and it's hard to really refute that. Diggersby's poor speed is arguably a moot point since the whole purpose of speed at all in Pokemon is to move first. Hence, if you're going to outspeed 252/252 Bold Cofagrigus and OHKO with Earthquake (even assuming you predicted wrong and he's switching in on Return on a hazardless field), it's irrelevant what Digg's speed is. You've got more leeway with a bulky water like Suicune, but that's assuming you're coming in completely healthy and not switching into Return. Plus, he's not going to be in a 1v1 situation with a fast scarfer (Mienshao?) 99% of the time - that's not how he's played - but ironically even if he was he kills it with Quick Attack anyway, so frail faster pokes still aren't always guaranteed to be safe.

    I don't know if I feel the same way about Band/Scarf Diggersby. To be honest, and hopefully this doesn't sound like too much of a sidetrack, but the ability to switch moves is seriously underrated nowadays and was a big part of my defense of "multi-set" Pokemon like Genesect. You open yourself up to an entirely different set of checks/counters when you opt for the immediate speed/power of scarf/band. I know reading it may seem dead-obvious like "where is he going with this", but it's really the difference between locking yourself into Return vs a ghost, or predicting wrong with Return and then OHKOing with EQ anyway. The Life Orb set is, again, enough of a threat that the other uses of Diggersby aren't really relevant (to me) as far as banning it goes, since the lack of checks/counters is really on display.
     
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  4. Proof

    Proof Well-Known Member

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    Diggersby should be banned from XY UU. It's sheer power is ridiculous, and running a sash with two strong base 100 STABs (102 for frustration) allows it to have the power of some of the strongest life orb mons in the tier, and sash to keep survivability. The sash SD set makes it impossible to easily deal with, giving it the raw power to OHKO threats like Zygarde at +2 without a life orb. If you do use a life orb to boost its power, walling it goes from difficult to impossible, in exchange for less survivability. Scarfed also deserves an honorable mention, in my opinion, as it deals hefty damage and gives offense a lot of trouble. It also gets u-turn to give itself momentum, as diggersby forces switches frequently. With STAB priority and an unboosted attack stat of 464, diggersby is a problem for the metagame. Walled only by a few relevant mons, and some others such as rotom-n, diggersby causes problems for the meta. With UU being, in my opinion, the easiest tier to defog in (Zapdos, Empoleon, Mew, Gligar, Crobat), diggersby finds it easy to keep its sash in-tact, and finds multiple sweeping oppurtunities.
     
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  5. Supremacy

    Supremacy New Member

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    it's obvious that Sash Diggersby is one of the most broken things in UU. paired up with crawdaunt makes a broken core, leading to almost everyone in UU running crawdaunt/diggersby/mew teams.

    diggersby should be banned from uu because of the fact that it has like 2 counters, and the easiest way to kill it ( revenge killing ) gets countered by sash.
     
  6. Tupac Shakur

    Tupac Shakur :]

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    It'd be smart to give reasons as to why you would like to see it banned, posts like this don't help tier leaders make a decision and certainly don't affect the outcome of the suspect discussion.
     
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  7. Lameflame

    Lameflame Active Member

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    Honestly, the fact that a Pokemon threatens a particular play-style is a viable argument but a pretty weak one overall. The whole point of having a "stallbreaker" or wallbreaker or whatever you call it is to threaten bulky stall pokemon that make stall viable. Stall as a play-style should have to prepare for offensive threats that can beat it just like any other play-style has to play around its own threats. Stall vs stall isn't even fun anyway.

    The reason why Diggersby isn't just another one of these said stallbreakers is due to the relevance, performance and viability of its checks and counters in the UU metagame. Every suspect thread asks players to evaluate "the effect of [the suspected pokemon] on the metagame", which sometimes unfortunately turns into "let's list every check/counter and every potential 1v1 scenario where you can beat [the suspected pokemon]". Some players argued in the Genesect suspect that its checks and counters are relevant, high-usage pokemon that may operationally define the OU metagame, based on the set it's running. The same is not entirely true for Diggersby. While it might seem like I'm using usage stats to strengthen my argument, this is actually not the case; rather, I'm simply looking at the checks Diggersby has (as listed above in several posts) and asking "are these pokemon representative of the current UU metagame?"

    Again, my answer to that is No. This isn't to say that these checks/counters aren't viable (as ThatMushroom said, Trevenant is certainly a viable UU mon), but every pokemon is checked/countered by something in lower tiers (Kyogre/Gastrodon?). The real question is whether those checks/counters are relevant enough to stymie Diggersby's sweeping potential in an appropriate way. When you're getting OHKO'd and 2HKOd by dual stabs even if your initial prediction on switch-in was right (ghosts switching into Return/Quick Attack), it doesn't seem justifiable to keep it in UU.
     
  8. Virizion

    Virizion ~ Taste the Rainbow ~

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    >it has like 2 counters

    Nice English. Anyways I think your point is invalid here. While Focus Sash Diggersby is common in the current UU meta, keep in mind that not everybody runs it, and that they can run Life Orb or Choice Band/Scarf as well.

    A little theorymonning here, so it's in spoiler brackets.

    While people don't know if Diggersby will be running Sash or not right off the bat, keep in mind that when something dies in order to allow a revenge-kill, it doesn't necessarily mean that Diggersby will be at full HP, and so I wouldn't really call a Sash countering a revenge-kill.

    In addition, I would consider revenge-killing is where one Pokémon faints the opposing the Pokémon, and not leaving them still standing.

    I will post my thoughts on Diggersby tho later, but I am leaning towards a ban.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2014
  9. Clarion

    Clarion Snow on the Sahara

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    I was counter-arguing people who wanted to keep Diggersby, and here's my statement:

    Sure, Diggersby isn't that bulky, and isn't that fast to make it broken: I would presume this as prepared offensive teams can exert pressure on Diggersby. However, what is bothering to most teams, especially on the defensive side, is that once Diggersby has the correct timing to switch in, this is where Diggersby can wreak havoc with its near-impeccable Normal-Ground attacks; a handful could switch in to its attacks.

    This is one of the reasons I wanted Diggersby to be banned, most especially that the Swords Dance + Focus Sash set is all the more one of the deadliest sets ever recorded in this tier. Offensive Pokemon with priority can help check Diggersby with ease, but with a handful of defensive Pokemon that can switch in safely to its STAB attacks, the only way players could do is to run offense to check offensive Pokemon as well. ThatMushroom has already explained much of the arguments I wanted to explain, so I'm leaning towards a ban.
     
  10. MUMU

    MUMU Just a random Haxer nOOb

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    Good points,though being able to hit hard with impeccable coverage and/or having priority is nothing new,and some are even faster,e.g salamance, mega gardevoir,crawdaunt,starptor,victini,haxorus, and the newcomer lucario,I am curious what the presence of lucario in the tier do towards diggersby,as well,for offensive team's matchup against it at least,also,note that the grass/ghost and bronzong are actually very viable by themselves anyway.for bulky teams at least
     
  11. Gandalf!

    Gandalf! New Member

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    In my oppinion, Diggesrby should not be banned. I'll do my best with my English in orther to get across may reasons why.
    Personally i haven't found trouble in dealing with Digg, as +Def Trevenant is part of my UU team (Trev is extremly good if used wisefully).
    In spite of that, supposed you don't have Trev, I believe that the key to check/counter Diggersby is good prediction.

    Life Orb sets are easy to revenge kill with something faster that resists quick attack (ex Terrakion); and you can even switch it in if you predict SD. "But how can you switch in terrakion (or whatever your counter is)? What if it is a scarfed Earthquake?". Well, this is what the Metagame is about. Analysis, prediction... The same happens with everything that MAY run a scarf.
    In orther to deal with its Choiced sets, you need the same skill you need against other users. In this sense, it doesn't hit harder than other users, think of Crawdaunt, for instance (ok, No U-Turn there, but still... Diggersby discussion of being banned don't have to do specifically with a U-turn problem).
    It's certainly good for a Focus sash, but not broken because of that... keep your entry hazards up, use a move that strikes more than once... Even Whimsicott can Encore its SD!!!

    I believe that the key when playing against Diggersby (and many others) is thinking...
    -Team preview: Who may be running a scarf? Who is the sweeper? Do I need Stealth Rock?

    -While playing: Is is too soon to attempt a sweep?
    -It can't OHKO: Will the opponent sacrifice a scarfed pokemon? --> Its using U-turn then.

    (I'll leave the discussion of possible walls to other more experienced players, but I can think of Levitating ghosts -Mismagius-, Prankster WoW/encore-Mega Bannette- ...).

    To sum up, I believe that Diggersby is a good versatile pokemon, and if used carefully one can abuse of its versatility. But I don't think it is broken with any of its sets in particular, as other pokemon can abuse of Focus Sash/Life Orb/ Scarf/ Band as much as Diggersby does. And there are many other versatile pokemons as well. Remember that there are Checks and Counters for him as well (as aforementioned).
    So: nothing that calls for a ban here, IMO.
     
  12. Lameflame

    Lameflame Active Member

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    It was looking pretty close to unanimous that Diggersby would be banned, so even though I'm on the Banwagon myself, at least your voice adds some legitimacy to the entire suspect process. Kudos to you for that.

    I think you should consider the possibility that while your argument may be well-constructed and well-intended, you've really only discussed how to play around Diggersby or manage Diggersby, not why Digg isn't broken or why it should stay in UU. Personally, even though I don't think "revenge killing" as an argument gets the recognition it deserves, using it as a stand-alone argument doesn't really help Diggersby's case because anything can technically be revenge killed. Mega Mewtwo Y can kill something and then be revenge killed by Scarf Victini V-Create, but that doesn't make Mewtwo a viable UU mon.

    To me, Diggersby's lack of legitimate checks and counters (particularly for the Life Orb set) are what make Diggersby unfit for UU. Honestly, if it even had 2 more legitimate answers and/or a complete stop that it had to fear when scanning Team Preview, it's lackluster speed and average bulk might make me lean towards No Ban, but in this tier it doesn't seem to have that. I totally agree that Trevenant is a great check to Diggersby; it's good at what it does overall, and may be the most UU-relevant check Diggersby has compared to the others. Perhaps if you played a half-dozen battles or so against a competent Diggersby user without Trevenant, your views on it might change.

    I think the rest of your points can be lumped into what I said about "playing around Diggersby", so while they may be entirely valid in some respects, again, I don't see a clear reasoning established for why Diggersby should stay in this tier. It's versatility is a great attribute, but the lack of available switch-ins seems (to me) to be one of the stronger Pro-Ban arguments.
     
  13. Gandalf!

    Gandalf! New Member

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    Thanks for responding to my comment. I also believe that it its extremely important that posts on both sides get stated (pro-ban and against-ban). Particularly in cases like these, where it is not obvious
    I find your arguments completely valid. I'll try a team with Diggersby myself and without Trevenant, and see the results. I'll see if I can gather more concrete evidence on why it should stay in UU, or if I get on the BanWagon as well.
     
  14. meeps

    meeps Well-Known Member

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    hellloo

    it is important to note, that most of the pokes which can switch-in and cripple diggersby are below 4% usage in uu and some even reside in nu. trevenant is a solid check, it can take a hit and will-o-wisp and wear down with leech seed and horn leech as well, but it is important to note trevenant's ability to succeed well is hindered by other threats, such as the highly prevalent dark-types in weavile and crawdaunt, and common fire-types in chandelure, victini, darmanitan, and arcanine. yes, it can work with proper support, but in reality it is really only used as a diggersby counter (but it can check stuff like mega medicham and what not to an extent) and other defensive pokemon generally fare better in the tier than trevenant.

    the thing that makes sash diggersby the best set is that it may significant ease the prediction required, compared to that of other sets, something may be sent in that may resist or be immune to one of diggersby's attacks, but diggersby can easily strike back and be guaranteed to survive a hit because of its sash, and potentially retaliate and ko the opposing pokemon, if it doesnt diggersby can use quick attack. sd is a nice boon as well, allowing it to tear through some offensive teams. i'd really like to stress again how easy it is to remove hazards in the tier, mega blastoise is an amazing spinner as it can plow through typical spinblockers with a boosted dark pulse potentially allowing it to get an easy spin, and mew is very bulky and can take numerous hits and proceed to get off a defog with ease.

    so yeah, i mainly lean ban for diggersby due to the fact it can easily get a ko or two, or proceed to sweep teams,offensive or defensive with a sash set, which is extremely effective due to the ease of removing hazards from the field (no one should really run sash diggersby without a spinner/defogger or fast taunt user). it also lacks checks/counters that are commonly used in the tier. also the ability to run other sets like scarf band and lo can enchance its effect that it has on the tier with scarf being able to harm offensive teams, band being able to harm stall teams, and lo being able to rip through multiple playstyles like sash set
     
  15. MUMU

    MUMU Just a random Haxer nOOb

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    I am not sure if focus sash can be used to argue something is broken,in addition,even if focus sash can be used as an argument due to "it being very easy to keep hazards off" it also means the diggersby ko'er can use focus sash to live.
     
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  16. Gandalf!

    Gandalf! New Member

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    I've been thinking quite a lot in possible switch-ins for Diggersby, as many believe that the fact that there are few in the tier can possibly lead to a ban.
    Well, i see that there are quite many, although most of them are not seen often in the tier. Some are useful in other tasks appart from stopping Diggersby, and other have nothing else to do.
    The useful ones include:
    * Trevenant - not seen often in spite of been a great curse+leech seed+protect user
    * Suicune - Capable of resting off the damage and Scalding. It can switch in on anything but the banded set, and if you detect a band then you will know how to counter diggersby
    252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 185-218 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 2.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    It can kill through life orb damage. And if there is no life orb, the Suicune can Scald and Rest indefinitely.
    * Mismagius - no further explanation required
    * Shedinja - no further explanation required
    *Gourgeist deserves a special mention. Its rare, but useful. Having curse, leech seed, trickroom+destiny bond; together with masive defensive stats. It can play some intresting roles in UU.

    Some rare things that may as well switch-in include:
    *Intimidate Salamence with Aqua Tail!!!
    -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 178-211 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    0 Atk Salamence Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 208-246 (55.6 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    It can also give a Wish to another pokemon, if needed
    *Hellium Balloon Doublade - capable of 2HKO Diggs
    *Drifblim - It's shitty, but it exists, as well as Misdreavus.

    Maybe somebody could give me a hand and add some more. The aforementioned pokemon are capable of TAKING ANYTHING from Diggersby. Appart from them, there are a hundred other mons that can switch in if you predict well a SD/EQ/Return; and hit back.


    What I meant to state with this post is that there is NOT a lack of counters to Diggersby, the matter is what pokemon you choose. I've mentioned 5 pokemon that counter Diggs perfectly. You certainly cannot have walls for everything in the tier, so its a matter of choosing who will be part of your Team. There are some that are good for Diggersby, and some walls are good against other pokemon. And I put emphasis on that, appart from the perfect walls, there are MANY MORE that can switch in with good prediction and kill Diggersby back (Terrakion, Lucario, and many many others).

    All in all, I still believe that Diggersby does not deserve a ban


    I look forward to your comments! :)
     
  17. Gandalf!

    Gandalf! New Member

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    By thw way. I didn't mention it. Would you SD on Suicune's face???
     
  18. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    Trevenant has already been established several times as pretty much the only viable Digg check.

    Suicune gets 2HKOed by banded Return and if rocks are up it gets OHKOed by +2 LO Return. Suicune is going to come in on the Digg as it SDs, then it gets OHKOed.

    What does this even mean? How is finding out that it's banded knowing how to counter it?

    Mismagius is absolute garbage in this meta. Not only that, but you are going to have to run it physically defensive specifically for Diggersby, making it all the more worthless.
    --252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mismagius: 112-132 (42.7 - 50.3%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    Mismagius is also 1.3% usage.

    It's dwelling at 1.3% usage and the amount of support it requires is unreal. It will die on the switch in if rocks or spikes are up so you will constantly need to defog just to keep that thing alive, not to mention the absurd Knock Off spam in the tier.

    Trevenant makes Gourg obselete, Sitrus Harvest gives it actual recovery making it, as stated before, probably the only semi-viable check Diggersby has.

    I'm just going to stop here. You are scraping the bottom of the barrel trying to find anything that resembles a check to Digg and you're putting yourself in a smaller and smaller box. You haven't considered viability and the impact on teams these mons will have whatsoever. Air Balloon Doublade dude, really?

    Trevenant is the literally the only semi-viable check Digg has and even running that is a burden to teams because of Dark STAB spam. Your reasoning behind not wanting to ban Digg is suggesting that people run a physically defensive Mismagius on their teams for one mon.
     
  19. Gandalf!

    Gandalf! New Member

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    First of all, I wouldn't argue if Diggersby gets banned. I agree on that the number of checks are limited. As I said before, I'm trying to encore a for and against discussion. Most of the posts are pro-ban, so I take the voice of the anti-ban

    As you said, Suicune shouldn't switch in on SD. That's the task of sth faster and that OHKO. ¿How can you tell what is Diggs going to do? Well, actually you can't.
    Switching Suicune into a Banded set is bad news too... Suicune is foreced out to something that resists the chosen move. But, in future oportunities, you will know that Diggs won't be able to change the move it picks. Prediction will be required when deciding what to bring in (by the way, the same happens every single time an opponent has Specs/Band; those pokemon usually carry perfect coverage).

    Shedinja is useful. Its shedinja, with all it means. You need rocks and spikes out.

    Yes, I know. These "checks" are extremely fragile, or nearly useless when they are not against diggersby. That's why I wouldn't feel disappointed if Diggersby gets banned.

    Misdreavus, Driffblim, AB Ghosts were mentioned as shitty pokemon that wall the SD+Ret+QAt+EQ sets
     
  20. MUMU

    MUMU Just a random Haxer nOOb

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    I am fairly sure one doesn't use all possible sets on one pokemon that always predict right in a ban argument in XY UU at least,or else salamance would be the first one to get the axe,as a simple set of outrage Fire blast iron tail earthquake with life orb or scarf has literally 0 non-sash switch in,that's not even counting dd threat and spacial sets,basically choiced diggersby not only has to predict right to not give flying types a free switch,but also has ghost issues, it can't run 2 item,lo is out of question on sash sets(which is appears to be the safest) for obvious reason,lastly,used right,gourgist is pretty viable.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2014
  21. just2bquiet

    just2bquiet Member

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    Ban it already please, this thing has no good switchins that are viable outside of countering Diggersby.

    In 5th gen we had gligar, alomomola, golurk and sableye etc to counter the top-tier threats such as Mienshao, victini, heracross etc whereas Diggersby either 1-2hkos them or can set up on the switch depending on which set its running. Not to mention the STAB priority that it also gets.
     
  22. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    @Gandalf!
    It's fine if you want to do that but saying things like "use Air Balloon Doublade" just so we have an anti-ban argument isn't okay because you're not contributing to the discussion with flawed reasonings like this. By the way not all arguments need to have two voices, some things are just so broken that you can't defend them. An example is when Gothitelle was in LU, it was unanimous before the suspect thread even began.

    Suicune is the wall in this situation, correct? A walls job is to switch into the mon (in this case Diggersby), not be in a perfect 1v1 situation with it.

    You guys need to stop making entire posts about a comparison of two mons, but pretty much every bulky water in the tier has no problem with that set (barring Empoleon).

    Prediction is a poor argument, because wouldn't the user of the Flying type have to predict correctly as well? So your ultimate solution to Digg is having people run both a Ghost and a Flying type on their team to keep Digg in a 50/50. The thing is you are in that 50/50 as well, and if you predict wrong you're losing your Flying or Ghost.

    The anti-ban arguments here have been very poor, Trevenant is the only semi-viable check Digg has and that is annoying to run because of Knock Off spam. I don't feel the need to continue on with this discussion, it's pretty obvious that the thing is getting banned. It's 8 for the ban and 2 against, with 1 of the 2 suggesting that we all run physically defensive Drifblims and the other making comparisons to other mons and trying to use prediction as an argument.
    Hoping the leaders can wrap this one up, Hera is also very unanimous so there's no point in delaying these.
     
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  23. MUMU

    MUMU Just a random Haxer nOOb

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    Life orb outrage can 2hko slowbro btw,and just because life orb is rarer doesn't make it ineffective either,even,scarf will always take out a pokemon when played right,if not sweep.and not every team run bulky water in the first place,by this logic,everyone will have to run a bulky water and a steel/fairy to keep it in 50/50,bulky water is more viable,but still.

    That said,I am not saying Salmance is broken,I am just saying the pro-ban arguments are using a somewhat shaky logic
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2014
  24. Gandalf!

    Gandalf! New Member

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    Still not broken IMO. Diggersby users are flipping a coin every single time (and the same for those that try to counter it). There are no safe SDs, due to it being slow and not bulky; and there are no safe Returns & EQs (choiced or not choiced). Diggs is always fliping a coin so that the other player doesn't bring in its Steel or Ghost or Rock/Flying or Levitate or Grass mon (remember that most teams include at least one in each category: one that resists Return and one that resists EQ).

    As I said in my first post, the key is accurate prediction (both for the Diggs user and for those that struggle against it). This doesn't make Diggs broken, the way I see it
     
  25. just2bquiet

    just2bquiet Member

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    Diggersby 2hkos all pokemon on the switchin anyway (save a few hardcounters like Mismagius or Trevenant, but those are unviable in the current meta anyway), and scarf will ensure that it gets the second hit off. Afaik nothing thats faster than a scarf diggersby will survive one return/eq, resisted or not. Scarf terrak is an exception for that but you'd still have to rely on a 50/50 just to force it out.

    252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 177-208 (54.7 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    The fact that there is no good counter for it and that you have to rely on 50/50s isnt enough to convince you? It's better at revengekilling than what Victini or Mienshao were in 5th gen and they were freaking S-ranked. On top of that it gets boosting moves and STAB priority. You need something like Skarmory to counter it and we dont have that in UU.
     
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  26. meeps

    meeps Well-Known Member

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    mumu, im trying to say focus sash diggersby is the best set, which is the main selling point for why it is broken, and it easily runs focus sash sets better than any pokemon in the tier. while it may not always be able to utilize its sash, it can still do significant damage to slower pokes or pick off a faster poke at low hp.

    gandalf, you still need to realize how easily diggersby can fire off a return and do significant damage, and you have to realize if the pokemon than can resists or is immune to return can do much back. chandelure is immune and can generally ko in return, unless diggersby can keep its sash intact it can ko with earthquake. lucario can ko in return while resisting, but it still takes some damage, also lucario is ohkoed by earthquake. terrakion same situation as previous two. forretress resists but is just setup fodder for diggersby really. jirachi can take a hit, but is ohkoed by return and diggersby may outspeed depending on set and speed evs and what not. empoleon is slower and will be koed by earthquake. aggron can take a hit pretty well but then 2hkoed by earthquake. metagross is ohkoed by earthquake. magnezone ohkoed by earthquake. rhyperior kinda shaky i guess, can phaze out as it can take a couple earthquakes, but diggersby can ko if it sd and isnt phazed out. doublade 2hko by earthquake and cant ohko in return.

    so yeah, while a lot of teams do carry rock/steel/ghost-type pokemon, diggersby is more than capable of handling them, regarding earthquake it's kinda the same situation.

    honestly bringing up prediction or seldom used pokemon/sets isnt helping your case of it being not broken, it just shows that it is more broken lol (also prediction is a fall-out poor argument in the case of diggersby, considering how easily sash diggersby can get at least one ko per battle).
     
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  27. MUMU

    MUMU Just a random Haxer nOOb

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    Thing is,just about anything with sash,high attack/spacial attack stat and good coverage can do that though,well,at least 3 pokemon in uu can,and 2 more obscure ones,this is gen 6,that's not enough to warrant something "broken" in XY UU.
     
  28. Amon

    Amon Normal User

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    Hmm im interested in trying to use a driftblim now... odd
    Diggersby should be up for ban. Not only is it insanely hard to switch into, you have to guess the set. Choice band/sash sd are both insanely difficult to counter and are almost guaranteed to ko a pokemon. If you happen to guess wrong, you lose a pokemon. To little risk/ high reward
     
  29. meeps

    meeps Well-Known Member

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    again, im not saying sash is the reason why diggersby is broken, it's just the best set, and it runs a sash set better than any pokemon in the tier (i know this from experience considering i've ran a team with 5 sash pokemon and a spinner, and diggersby was by far the most successful).
     
  30. MUMU

    MUMU Just a random Haxer nOOb

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    Well,if the best set isn't broken chances are,the pokemon isn't broken either,and diggersby actually has more offensive checks that can switch in 3/4 of it's moves often.also @Amon ,it's not always little risk high-reward seeing it has to predict right most of the time,which is never a good argument to ban anything,mainly considering the XY power creep
     
  31. meeps

    meeps Well-Known Member

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    " diggersby actually has more offensive checks that can switch in 3/4 of it's moves often."

    are you just making up this statistic on the spot? you have to realize diggersby hits 464 attack to begin with, and it has two stabs with 100 or greater power, not much in the tier can safely switch into it. i already mentioned in my last post diggersby is easily capable of firing off a return without much drawback, just looking at everything currently listed as uu, 10 out of 48 pokemon resist or are immune to return, only forretress does not take super effective damage from earthquake, but it still cannot do anything back. assuming sash, diggersby can fire off an earthquake and ohko 7 of this pokemon, and the others won't be able to outspeed. regarding earthquake, 9 out of 48 pokemon resist or are immune to earthquake, and all of these pokemon will take heavy damage from return. heracross is probably the only thing that can take earthquake and return, but it really won't like switching into return. prediction honestly is hardly an issue in regards to diggersby considering how easily it can obtain a ko.
     
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  32. Edna

    Edna I'm like Cinderella with an umbrella Forum Moderator Article Contributor Forum Moderator Article Contributor

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    Brozong,Gourgeist, Trevenant, Physically defensive Rotom, Mismitrap or Defensive with Will-o-Wisp are pretty much hard counters to Diggersby.
    You're talking of Knock off like if Diggersby can run that. You're judging a Pokémon, not the work it can do with a well prepared team .

    So, to begin with the best set I've seen so far is the sash one. However, with Lucario being now in the tier and the possibility of using a Stab Priority fighting, it's harder to place Diggersby.
    If you have rocks on your side then all's fine. If not, try to switch into one of the counter listed. It's like having a team not prepared for Aegislash, but what Digg lacks is diversity.
    However, Diggersby has a lot of checks and all of them resist Knock off, like Terrakion, Lucario, Virizion.
    Also, nobody tried Intimidate Impish Scrafty?

    -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Scrafty: 141-166 (42.2 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    0 Atk Scrafty High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 320-378 (102.8 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Okay, Digg is very good, but you guys needs to adapt your team to new metagames, it's not everytime that you don't know how to counter a wallbreaker that it needs to be banned.

    No ban.
     
  33. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    At first I thought this was a sarcastic remark towards Gandalf!'s post, then I realized you weren't joking. Physically defensive Mismagius dude? Physically defensive Mismagius? How can you even post that mon seriously? Like do you realize how insanely hard it is for a team to support a complete garbage mon like that? You literally have to build your team around that thing, and for one mon. You seriously need to consider viability and the impact on teams these mons will have because running any one of them is going to open up enormous holes in your team.

    Gourgeist is irrelevant because Trevenant makes it obsolete because of its access to Sitrus recovery. Bronzong has to be run with physical defense investment, which pretty much destroys any viability it might have had. SpDef Zong is somewhat viable in the current meta because it deals with some Mega Garde, some Mega Alakazam, CM Latias, Roserade, etc. and still has enough physical def even uninvested to deal with Zygarde and Mence with HP Ice. Running it with physical defense just neuters it.
    Also, just thought I'd post these mons usage.
    Rotom 0.610542 165
    Gourgeist-XL 0.558738 151
    Mismagius 1.3913 376
    Bronzong 1.55781 421
    Trevenant 2.30156 622

    Literally the only reason Trevenant is above 2% is because of Diggersby. Trev is pretty much your only (or most viable) choice if you want a check to Diggersby.

    No I'm talking of Knock Off like it's being spammed by everything, which it is. Not only that but stuff like Victini, Chandy, Crawdaunt, Weavile, Garde, Hydreigon, MegaZam, Crobat (all very common mons) make running Trev a handicap.

    Comparisons of two mons are irrelevant.

    Again, a comparsion of two mons..not really relevant but I'll bite. Aegislash has extremely viable checks and counters. Everything from Mandibuzz to Bisharp to Hippowdon. Now compare the viability of these mons to physically defensive Rotom-N in UU. That's the problem with Diggersby.

    .

    What I find funny about this post is it was like the combination of Gandalf!'s and MUMU's post, where Gandalf! suggested we all run physically defensive Drifblims and MUMU made entire posts comparing Digg to other mons and tried using prediction as an argument.

    This discussion is really dragging on, the anti-ban arguments have remained consistently poor, and disregarding that a consensus was reached like 3 days ago, this isn't going to change any time soon. Please ban both Hera and Digg already..I want to ladder again.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2014
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  34. Edna

    Edna I'm like Cinderella with an umbrella Forum Moderator Article Contributor Forum Moderator Article Contributor

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    Hey dude, no need to be aggressive lol.
    The sets might be gimmick okay. They're not used enough, okay. But let me remember you how was BW2 UU, all around Hera and Chandy. Do you remember why people used Houndoum? Just to counter Chandelure. It finished in NU but was viable.
    Yes, Physically Def Mismagius is a thing, it's a support mon that has a very good moves, like Willow, Destiny bond, Taunt, Mean look, Perish song.
    I've tried it in a team and worked fine for me.
    As for Scrafty, lol, you just want to see the ladder as it is, you never want diversity. People who succeed are people who innovate, if you don't want to create sets it's up to you, but don't say that these pokemons have no utility or nothing else that countering Diggersby. Because they don't, they basicaly are a stop to most of the normal and ground and fighting mons, which is different!
     
  35. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    I really didn't think I was being aggressive man..but apoligies if I offended you.
    You really gotta stop with these comparisons, I don't want to respond to this because it'll just start a BW2 UU argument but Chandy and Hera had extremely viable counters, I'll just leave it at that.

    I just don't think it's very viable at all when there are legions of better options that can also carry their own weight.

    Dude, I run a RestTalk Mega Amphy, HP Ice Chesnaught, and Knock Off Alomomola on my ladder team. I'm not a (excuse my language) standardfag. I'm all for creativity, shit in BW2 UU I used Gurdurr and was very successful with that team (currently #3 I think) but I really don't think a physdef Rotom-N has any uses outside of dealing with Digg. The only other common physical Ground type in this tier is Rhyperior and even univested it still shits on physdef Mismag.

    --0 Atk Rhyperior Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mismagius: 142-168 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    There's pretty much nothing viable to deal with Digg in this tier, and lack of counters isn't the only reason why Digg is broken, it shits on offense as well with Scarf or Sash SD (refer to post #2 aka my first post on this thread).
     
  36. Gandalf!

    Gandalf! New Member

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    I never recommended including a Drifblim nor a +Def Mismagius.
    I agree on that the ban arguments have been a lot more solid than the anti ban arguments, probably because this thing hits as hard as shit and almost nothing can't safely switch in in UU.
    Please, don't take me as a fool for trying to defend an anti-ban point of view. As I said, I tried to encore a for and against discussion. I guess this thing deserved it, it's not as broken as Mega Heracross is. (I believe) it will be banned after all, so I had everything to lose from the very beginning.
    I did as Lameflame recommended, and tried playing without +Def Trevenant in my team. And I realized it is more dangerous than I thought at the very beginning.

    And yes, prediction is not a "counter" nor an anti-ban argument. All I meant to express is that Diggs has to deal with the fact that many mons are immune to one of its two stabs. So thing are not "easy" for him.
     
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  37. MUMU

    MUMU Just a random Haxer nOOb

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    Tbh Defensive Rotom and Bronzong is only effective in situational cases,so I wouldn't suggest running it,but the fact remains that pro-ban arguments are using prediction to assume something broken,and that sash as pro-ban is,well,sash.


    On a side note:Gourgeist isn't outclassed by Treventant,it has frisk and sufficient bulk to survive even without hervest
     
  38. ZoroDark

    ZoroDark i know everything

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    Lol oversimplifying and making things up about one side of the argument isn't exactly helping your side.

    Have you ever used Sash Diggersby? You're acting as if it's some mediocre set that is nothing but a gimmick. Instead, it's one Diggersby best sets that perfectly combines its (broken) ability to fuck up both offensive and defensive teams. Against offense you're assured of one kill by throwing a STAB attack of Huge Power (yay for puns!), and then finishing off the mon with Quick Attack or weakening the next one coming in. Against more defensive teams it's assured to always get a SD up after which it can throw out insanely powerful attacks that'll bring down even the sturdiest defensive walls to a point where another sweeper easily breaks through (if you don't outright KO the defensive mon, that is). I'm sure you can find as many calcs as you desire in some of that mushroom's posts. In either of these cases there's barely any prediction involved. Versus offense it's usually fairly clear which STAB is the most advantageous to use. Even if you mispredict as they switch out, it's not even all that important because your sash is still intact (unless U-Turn of course). Versus defensive teams it's another scenario. Diggersby outspeeds the vast majority of walls in UU, so again it won't have to predict as much.

    I'd also like to point out that the "don't ban" side is making use of prediction as well, if not more frequently. Gandalf! called playing with Diggersby "flipping a coin wether to Return or Earthquake against the Flying/Ghost type against the opponent". Well the same goes for those switching into it, and the consequences are far greater. If Diggersby predicts right, it becomes very easy to choose a move next time. If you choose wrong, bad luck, but at least you can switch out and in again to try again later. Then again predictions shouldn't be used in suspect discussions, but this paragraph is more about clearing things up anyway.

    Overall, Diggersby is just too powerful to remain in UU. It does have some flaws like a sub-par speed, and not so great bulk, but they're passable. Its huge offensive firepower makes more than up for that anyway. Because of the lack of any good hard counters (Trevenant is subpar at best) and the way it threatens offensive and defensive teams alike, Diggersby should really be banned from UU.
     
  39. MUMU

    MUMU Just a random Haxer nOOb

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    Tbh I actually didn't use it too much times,but pretty sure sash of anything getting a ko is not a valid argument for ban,because it apply to many hard hitters,and the only response pro-ban people gave on it is"don't compare it to other pokemon"although it's hard to give a proper example otherwise,furthermore,while it is indeed easier to keep stealth rock away from the sash user's side,it still needs team support and even then competent players can often keep the rocks up

    Edit:As to bulkier team having problems beating the swords dance set without bronzong,trevenant and gourgeist XL ,(which are more viable than people points them to be),here is something common that surprisingly got overlooked

    252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 216 HP / 124+ Def Mew: 174-205 (44 - 51.8%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO
    252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 196+ Def Mew: 163-193 (40.3 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 232 HP / 96+ Def Mew: 178-211 (44.6 - 52.8%) -- 26.2% chance to 2HKO

    As it's shown most mew can actually switch in on swords dance variants,and force it out due to a faster will o wisp
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2014
  40. Windblown

    Windblown Blinded, I can't see the end

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    Sorry for the delay. Anyways, after getting together with the other tier leaders, we've come to a decision and Diggersby will be banned from the XY UU tier.

    As mentioned in the thread, Diggersby's presence immediately threatens all kinds of teams in the tier and although its coverage is quite simple, its stats allow it to work with just its dual STABs and priority. It's an effective Choice user and amazing Focus Sash user thanks to Swords Dance and Quick Attack being able to play around its middling speed.

    To play around Diggersby results in having to predict fairly well in order to not lose a Pokemon. Although a Diggersby user also has to predict, the risk for the user is lessened by the presence of U-Turn and the fact that it's not that much of a loss by predicting wrong. The opponent's price for predicting wrong is losing a Pokemon / having a weakened wall, in most cases.

    As for actual counters, not many are viable in the current UU metagame, with Bronzong having no recovery; Trevenant and Gourgeist work and have value outside of countering it but still having Diggersby puts all players in a hole whilst teambuilding.

    Re: Comparisons with Diggersby and other Pokemon with sash. This was a Diggersby thread first off, so comparisons should really have been avoided seeing how the majority of the people in the potential suspects thread mentioned Diggersby's excellent use of a sash rather than others; not to mention the fact that other sash users often lack the power to actually get KOs without a boosting item or the speed (Hi Crawdaunt).

    But feel free to bring them up in the potential suspect thread, as this thread will be locked. Thanks to all who participated.
     
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