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Suspect Discussion: Heracronite

Discussion in 'Gen 6 UU' started by Insane Soul, May 2, 2014.

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  1. Insane Soul

    Insane Soul Griffith did nothing wrong.

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    Discuss the possibility of Heracronite being banned from the XY UU tier.

    Use this thread to discuss Mega Heracross' (MegaCross) effect in the metagame. Talk about the different sets it can use, his best partners/team support and potential checks & counters. State your opinion on whether you think Heracronite should be banned or if it should stay in the XY UU tier.

    All opinions are welcome to be presented, and arguments may be shared between players, as long as you back it up with knowledge and experience and refrain from making your entire points based on responses to others. Theorymonning is not a valid argument and anyone who bases their opinion in it risks being infracted. If you are relatively new to this kind of environment, i suggest you read these guidelines.

    Do not forget that, if a consensus can't be found after this discussions reaches its end, a vote will be held.
     
  2. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    .

    Onto my analysis of Hera then.

    It's happening..the tier leaders comin through :']
    Thanks for making the dual suspect happen, and thanks to the people who supported it. Especially Soren and Accelgor <3

    I'll go through Mega Hera similar to how I went through Diggersby.

    First, I'll start off with potential counters. Mega Hera has pretty much no counter in this tier. The closest thing to a counter it has is a max max Cofagrigus (which has no recovery), but it pretty much ends there. Every other potential "counter" you can think of (you'd have to think hard though) is less than 2% usage and don't have much of a niche outside of dealing with Hera and are a burden to fit on teams in general. These would include physdef Granbull with Intimidate (no recovery) and physdef Jellicent (2HKOed by Rock Blast with rocks up).

    Countering Mega Hera is not how most teams go about dealing with it because your options of checks are such complete shit that people's ways of dealing with it are revenge killing it, which alone makes the thing retarded. Revenge killing it, however, is pretty much impossible without a Brave Bird/Flare Blitz/V-create etc.

    The best set Mega Hera can run imo is 252 HP/252+ Attack with Pin Missle/Rock Blast/Close Combat/Earthquake. The moves are set in stone because Pin Missle 2HKOes bulky waters anyway so you don't need Bullet Seed, but some can run max speed if they use it on Sticky Web teams, but generally max HP is the best option because its speed is already bad so there's no point in investing into it.
    With max HP, Hera becomes unrevengable without previously said moves. The bulk it has is ridiculous. Just to give you an idea of it..

    --252+ SpA Choice Specs Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Heracross: 250-295 (68.6 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    --252+ Atk Choice Band Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 295-348 (81 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    It's not dying without an extremely powerful super effective attack, which limits your choice on what revenge killer you can choose. It's sad when a mon forces you to change your team's revenge killer, not change your wall.

    Every time Mega Hera comes in something is dying. Even uninvested, its speed allows it to outspeed things that can attempt to come in on it like Chesnaught, Mega Blastoise, Slowbro, Forretress, etc.

    --252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 400-480 (101.5 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    --252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 185-225 (48.6 - 59.2%) -- approx. 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (guaranteed 2HKO with rocks up and naught can't do shit to Hera)
    --252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 255-305 (70.4 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    The only negative Mega Hera has is its speed, but imo its bulk more than makes up for it. Just the fact that the only way of dealing with Hera is revenging it and on top of that it has the bulk to limit your revenge killers makes it too much. Ban plz oml.

    An argument against Mega Hera previously stated by meeps and UH was that it has trouble coming in, but again, everything except walls has trouble coming into this meta. This is as general an argument as the "it can be revenge killed" argument.
     
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  3. Drakeyy

    Drakeyy New Member

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    The closest thing I have found to a counter so far is this zapdos set:

    Zapdos @Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 96 HP / 144 Def / 112 SAtk / 4 SDef / 152 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Defog
    - Roost
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Flying]

    112+ SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Heracross: 364-432 (100 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    While:

    252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 96 HP / 144 Def Zapdos: 145-170 (42.1 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 96 HP / 144 Def Zapdos: 138-162 (40.1 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ Atk Mega Heracross Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 96 HP / 144 Def Zapdos: 95-115 (27.6 - 33.4%) -- approx. 0% chance to 3HKO

    The Spa gurantees a OHKO on 252/4 MegaCross while the speed outspeed even Jolly variants (Just in case). I dont remember why I have the Def/HP EVs how they are. Anyways this set allows me to always beat MegaCross 1v1 and switch in on 3/4 of its moves while taking less than half health away. Very few people expect the HP Flying and therefore I would say I win against Heracross 90% of the time because very few predict the zapdos switch and just spam its most effective move against its current target.

    However if zapdos goes down I have no counter and im forced into just revenge killing which although not overly difficult with all the hugely powerful threats in the tier is not a good enough reason to keep it around. Also the fact that I designed a poke basically to just counter this one threat shows the power that it has

    TL;DR Ban pls
     
  4. Proof

    Proof Well-Known Member

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    mega hera isnt broken. it's slow and its power can be overwhelming, but not so much so to the point that it's impossible to keep in check. Also, although most pokemon in the tier can't take all of its hits, it's easy to predict which move it's going to go for. And there are plenty of pokemon in the tier that can take 1 hit and retaliate well. If we banned every pokemon that had no counters/only up to 3 counters in the tier, we'd have to ban chandelure, crawdaunt, diggersby, victini, hydreigon, staraptor, darmanitan, etc. Also, just a sidenote, although gligar is very low in the usage it's a pretty hard counter to heracross. And @ThatMushroom just because there are pokemon in the UU tier that can break stall, doesn't mean we should automatically ban them...
     
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  5. Supremacy

    Supremacy New Member

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    I honestly am really tired of all these mons in UU that have 0 to 1 counters. mega cross is one of tjhem. gligar can come in on a mega cross but doesnt do anything since its main stab is resisted, some mega cross's carry sub, and that blocks toxic.

    Im also tired of the fact that you can prepare your team to handle a lot of things but then there are mons like mega cross who just annihilate you're whole team, and then if you bring in something for mega cross, your team is weak to crawdaunt.

    I say ban because of the fact that the only way to really kill it is by revenge killing. It's good coverage, and its bulk.
     
  6. Proof

    Proof Well-Known Member

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    Heracross never runs substitute... in the usage statistics, it's not even listed as one of the top 25 moves. More people literally use venoshock, hyper beam, and horn attack than substitute, especially on mega heracross who needs all 4 moves. A solution to pokemon that run have few counters is to either actually run one of the counters, or play effectively so that these pokemon can't switch in whenever they want and get a kill. It's not like heracross gets hundreds of free switch ins, and actually gets a kill every time it switches in. Heracross isn't anywhere near impossible to revenge kill; staraptor, victini, chandelure, aerial ace weavile, arcanine, gardevoir, crobat, alakazam, and overheat mega manectric are all pokemon that are commonly seen in UU and able to outspeed and OHKO heracross (some after rocks). Just because a pokemon is strong doesn't automatically make it broken. Also, half of those pokemon can easily come in on one or two of heracross' moves. Just because a pokemon has sky-high attack and strong STABs, doesn't make it broken-- especially a slow and moderately easy-to-revenge pokemon like heracross.
     
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  7. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    @Drakeyy
    You should have calced the hits on Zapdos with Rock Blast because Bullet Seed is unnecessary on Mega Hera. Rock Blast OHKOes your Zapdos set.

    I disagree, I believe Mega Hera is the hardest mon in the tier to try to keep in check. The thing has no switch-ins, and I don't think it's easy to predict around it. What I'm assuming your ideas of checks are is Fire/Flying types, but just the combo of Pin Missle and Rock Blast put you in a 50/50 where you can either switch into your Flying/Fire type hoping you guess right or get OHKOed by Rock Blast. These are not checks, a check is something that can at least take 1 of its primary coverage moves, but all Fire/Flying types get OHKOed by Rock Blast in this tier. Most players will end up sacking the mon infront on Mega Hera just so they can switch into their Fire/Flying revenge killer because risking a 50/50 that has a chance to OHKO your only way of dealing with Hera (your revenge killer) is extremely retarded. I don't think anyone would make that play. When it comes in you just have to sack to try to revenge it.

    Why do people continue using this line of logic? Kyurem-B has shit that can take 1 hit (Jirachi, Metagross etc) and retaliate, Mega Kangaskan has shit that can take 1 hit (Mega Agg, steels), should we drop them down to UU?

    That's not the only reason I want Hera banned. When a mon has a base 185 attack stat, absolutely nothing to take a hit from it in the tier which forces you to constantly sack, "counters" that are struggling to get 1% usage (and also have no recovery for the most part), monstrous bulk that is so terrifying that you are forced to only use only a select group of revenge killers that are all Rocks-weak (Fire/Flying types) so you can actually OHKO the fucking thing, and enough speed even uninvested to outspeed pretty much every wall in the tier, yea I see that as an enormous problem that needs to gtfo. Also, I know from playing you Proof that you run Gligar, but at the same time you are for the Diggersby ban. So you're fine with something staying that doesn't have an enormous impact on your team (but does to the meta) because you run Gligar but you want Digg gone because it possibly fucks your team? I don't want bans based purely on not having counters, if that were the case I'd be wanting Electivire suspects and stupid shit like that.

    That thing is dwelling at like 0.8% and really can do nothing to Mega Hera unless you run the obscure Air Slash. An extremely obscure and hard-to-fit-on-a-team mon with a more obscure moveset, that's what we're forced to run for one mon? And if we don't we are restorted to sack and revenge bullshit.

    Ffs I stopped using stall completely like two months ago, where in any previous discussions have I mentioned I wanted these mons gone purely because they hurt stall? I was saying stupid shit like that when I first started posting, I eventually stopped but I guess I've been branded as a stall user because of previous rants about it. I'm running bulky balanced teams as of right now in almost every tier, so I'd like to ask that you guys stop with this stall nonsense.
    I apoligize if I came off as abrasive in this post, the cursing might have been unnecessary but I feel it gets the point across stronger.
     
  8. Virizion

    Virizion ~ Taste the Rainbow ~

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    252+ Atk Mega Heracross Bullet Seed / Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gligar: 140-165 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    252+ Atk Mega Heracross Bullet Seed / Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gligar: 140-165 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- approx. 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Gligar can't come into Mega Heracross well at all, and it being almost 2HKO'd with Stealth Rock is something that needs to be considered.

    Very little Mega Heracross carry Substitute nowadays, and this is backed up by seeing that only 2.61% of Heracross in April. The main set you see nowadays will most certainly run Close Combat, Rock Blast, Pin Missile and Bullet Seed / Earthquake.


    I'm so slow and I forgot to add Eviolite onto MHera, smh. And btw Proof I knew what you was trying to say! vvv

    -------

    Anyways onto my opinions of Mega Heracross, and while I agree with ThatMushroom in a lot of ways here, I may as well post my thoughts as well. :)

    With a fantastic attack stat and wall-breaking power, Mega Heracross is definitely a force to be reckoned with. An attack stat of 185 is nothing to laugh at, especially when you can consider that MHeracross can pretty much 2HKO the whole tier alone with it's fantastic coverage options as well, and a great offensive typing, being able to hit I believe 7 types for super-effective damage with it's STAB moves alone. I feel that the main checks/counters to Mega Heracross apart from (Mega) Alakazam, are also weak to Stealth Rock and can be hindered with Sticky Web, meaning that this thing is even better with hazard support as well, especially when you consider that there are a good amount of Pokémon that can run hazards alongside it, such as Forretress, Galvantula, and Smeargle, and a spinblocker of choice to support it even more. The only problem I seek with MHera is getting crippled with status, as this can render it's use drastically - therefore a cleric-support Pokémon or something with Safeguard is also a great partner, especially if they have some synergy with each other, examples being either Umbreon (for it's great overall bulk) or Florges (with it's fantastic defensive typing, although it does face problems with physical threats such as Victini). With a good amount of support though, MHera is definitely a fantastic Pokémon in the tier (not to mention it's decent defences as well), and it should be banned in my opinion.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2014
  9. Proof

    Proof Well-Known Member

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    Fist thing's first @Virizion you didn't put eviolite on gligar... and that was just a small side note, not the basis of my argument. I know Gligar's low in usage, I was just mentioning it's one of the best counters in the tier, and a viable pokemon. @ThatMushroom Disregarding the entirety of your post, on the gligar part specifically, gligar runs TOXIC to combat mega heracross, and heracross doesn't run substitute. Also, gligar doesn't even get air slash, nor would it run it if it did, why would you even mention that? Also, if it did get air slash, it wouldn't even 2hko mega heracross. That's just not even worth mentioning. Aerial ace, on the other hand, is a move that gligar could run to 2hko mega heracross, a move that it actually gets. Not that I'm saying aerial ace gligar is viable, however, you're the one who brought it up. Toxic is gligar's main way of combating mega heracross. Also, even if you run the "best" set (according to you), gligar can beat heracross even with earthquake, or force it to switch out. Since close combat is doing nearly 44% at the absolute max, and 37 min on the roost, gligar completely walls heracross. Also, your best move to combat gligar not using roost is rock blast, doing only 33% maximum. So yes, unless heracross is running bullet seed (which requires prediction on the roost) or the rarer knock off, gligar is a pretty hard counter. Also, gligar can wear down heracross easily. The fact that people are so fixated on the least important part of my argument is a little frustrating. Gligar literally took up a sentence of my argument, I just figured since it's a viable pokemon in UU that it would get a mention as a soft counter to heracross.


    Now, those pokemon I listed can all revenge mega heracross easily, proving that mega heracross is not hard to revenge kill. All of those pokemon are commonly found in UU, and all of them can do massive damage to/OHKO mega heracross. Some of them, like I said, can take ONE of heracross' primary attacking moves and OHKO in return. I think this classified them as soft checks. Crobat, being a primary example, takes almost no damage from 3 of four of hits, and destroys heracross. Obviously crobat isn't a counter because rock blast destroys it, however it's a check, and easily revenge kills heracross. The same concept applies to mega gardevoir, victini, chandelure, and arcanine. They all easily take 2 (1 in victini and gard's cases) of heracross' primary STABs, and OHKO in return, but can't take all 4 hits. Also, your kyurem b and kangaskhan argument makes no sense. Mega kangaskhan has earthquake for steel types, aggron may be a special exception because of its filter, however it's still not a counter. A power-up punch in conjunction with an earthquake will destroy Aggron, and a power-up-punch on it's own will destroy regular aggron on the switch-in, allowing earthquake to easily finish it off. Saying "steels" is dumb, because jirachi, metagross, empoleon, and magnezone are all examples of steel types that cannot combat mega kangaskhan. Also, mega aggron can't "retaliate well", considering even max attack adamant mega aggron does 50% to mega kangaskhan maximum. Kyurem-b also demolishes both pokemon, doing big damage with earth power, or easily 2hkoing both of their standard sets with even a resisted outrage, and metagross' bullet punch won't be doing much in return. Scarfed rachi also takes up to 75% from outrage, and cant even do that much in return with iron head, and won't always flinch. Your examples are poor, and your basis is so off-topic that I suggest not even responding with a defense for it. Using an extreme like mega kangaskhan is dumb, as it's clearly broken in OU, and would have no problem being more broken in UU.

    Also, you mention heracross' massive 185 attack stat, but pokemon like chandelure are significantly stronger due to their ability to use an item. Chandelure's specs fire blast will due way more damage than heracross' bullet seed-- with more base power and a 640 sptack stat (in comparison to heracross' 515) there are plenty of pokemon that have more sheer power than heracross. Not like sheer power alone makes a pokemon broken, but since that's what you're trying to say, I'd like to point out that there are a lot of pokemon that can out-power heracross with a life orb or just a more powerful STAB (in victini and darmanitan's case, since darmanitan with no item is almost exactly the same power as a pin missile, and darmanitan has the option to run life orb or choice scarf. Victini also is nearly the same power as heracross, and can run a choice item.)

    Finally, I just played you using stall not even a week ago. the "bulky offense" you run has nothing with any speed investment, and therefore gets destroyed by diggersby, crawdaunt, mega hera, and chandelure. You can call it bulky offense, but when everything's outsped by all of the strongest pokemon in the tier, you're not going to win against them. Stall and slow bulky offense aren't going to work well for you in a tier with mega medicham, crawdaunt, mega heracross, chandelure, and darmanitan. They're not non-viable, however, we can't just ban every pokemon that has a stable role in the meta because they efficiently break stall and have few counters.
     
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  10. Drakeyy

    Drakeyy New Member

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    @ThatMushroom
    I said in my post that Zapdos can switch into 3/4 of the attacks Megacross can throw at it as obviously Rock Blast OHKOs. There are a few flying pokes (Like crobat) Who can switch into 3/4 of its attacks and KO Before it can rock blast.

    @Proof
    Of all the pokemon you listed only 2 (Chandy and Crobat) can come in on any more than 1 of its moves the rest cant take more than 2 hits from megacross who will just switch out when you come in and will KO if it tries to come back in on it later

    Honestly the best way to deal with Megacross it to either sack your current poke and go for the revenge hoping the other user leaves it in or have a pokemon that can wall the majority of its moves and try to "counter" it.
     
  11. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    I meant Aerieal Ace, my bad. I get those two mixed up. I really don't think I was fixated on Gligar for the large part of my argument. I agree that it's a decent counter to Mega Hera but again, like all of its other potential "counters" they are really bad in this meta. Knock Off spam is more prevelant in this tier than I think any other tier, and Weavile alone is at like #1 in usage last time I checked.

    Not sure which mons you are reffering to. If it is this list here: "staraptor, victini, chandelure, aerial ace weavile, arcanine, gardevoir, crobat, alakazam, and overheat mega manectric" then my point still stands, other than Mega Garde it is only Flying/Fire types that can revenge it (and most have to use moves which cause a lot of recoil) which seriously limits what revenge killers you can use.
    Mega Hera is so broken that we're actually talking about revenge killing like it's an acceptable way to play around a mon (which it isn't because it means you sacked a mon to it first), but I'll prove my point with calcs anyway.

    --252+ Atk Life Orb Weavile Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 317-374 (87 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
    --252 SpA Mega Manectric Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Heracross: 280-330 (76.9 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    --252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 290-344 (79.6 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Garde is the only mon on that list that isn't a Fire/Flying type and that gets OHKOed by Pin Missle if it tries to "check" Hera. The only way of dealing with it is revenging it and that isn't even possible without a select few mons that are all coincidentally rocks-weak, making their jobs that much harder. As I stated previously it's sad when a mon forces you to change your revenge killer because that's the only way to deal with it and not change your wall. Gligar is probably the best answer to Hera, but again, it's a 0.8% fucking usage. At least with Digg Trevanant wasn't as extremely difficult to fit on a team and that sat at above 3%.

    You said a mon that can "take 1 of its moves and retaliate back", most steels can take 1 hit from Kyurem-B and retaliate back like scarf Rachi or Metagross with BP. You're picking examples where Kyurem-B predicted correctly and EQ'd but that same logic can be used for Mega Hera so you just contradicted yourself. Scarf Terrak can take a Return from Mega Kangaskan and retaliate with CC etc, it's just a bad argument.

    I won't respond to this part of your argument because comparisons to other mons are a bad way to argue for/against a mon. Similar to the Chandelure comparison Finch and Meowmix made to Diggersby, they're completely unrelated mons. If you're going to say that I compared Hera to Kyurem and Kangaskan it was to show the flaws in the "there's mons that can take 1 hit" argument.

    I think you remember my team wrong. I had a scarf Victini. The team was Mew/Alomomola/Tangrowth/Snorlax/Mega Ampharos/Scarf Victini. 3 walls with good synergy, defogger, scarfer, bulky powerhouse..imo that's balanced. Btw I changed no item Tangrowth out for Chesnaught because your banded Crawdaunt with Crunch shat on my soul.
     
  12. Proof

    Proof Well-Known Member

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    @ThatMushroom All of the mons I listed can "retaliate" by KOing or KOing after rocks. Thanks for just about restating everything I already said as an "argument" though!
     
  13. Accelgor

    Accelgor Active Member

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    Wow I've seen a lot of great arguments for banning Mega Heracross in this thread and not so many advocates that would like to keep it. Seriously people I know there are many using the 'low speed so keep it' argument (which is pretty weak in my opinion), so post here and fight for your opinions to be heard...because it seems to be a one-sided discussion going on over here.

    Anyways :p

    Most of my existing evidence that calls for Mega Heracross to be banned from the tier has been accurately stated by the likes of ThatMushroom and Supremacy. Proof, you say that there are many pokemon that can OHKO Mega Heracross easily, but can you also tell me any viable pokemon that can switch into any of it's attacks safely? Keep in mind that there are both mindless and genius users of it, with the mindless users just spamming Pin Missile and Close Combat and the genius people using the amazing idea we call prediction to their advantage. I've seen the post where Drakeyy makes the argument for Zapdos being a good counter to Mega Heracross, but come on, would a player with good prediction skills ever consider using Pin Missile, Close Combat, or Earthquake without thinking twice about whether or not Zapdos would possibly switch in? In addition, Zapdos cannot damage Mega Heracross massively, with Heat Wave doing around 50% depending on the Special Attack investment and with only Hidden Power Flying (EXTREMELY rare due to reduced Base Power and low viability) OHKOing it.

    I know I myself am an avid user of Mega Heracross, but my basis for using it is to prove how overpowered and unhealthy it is for XY UU. It completely demolishes stall, making it an almost impossible playstyle in the current tier (saying this because Xdevo's amazing team does exist) and also has the potential to hugely dent balanced and hyper offensive teams given that it switches in safely. Again as per usual, please feel free to counter any of the points I've made in this post so that we can go further with the discussion, which is what we all want in the end. Make your arguments compelling!
     
  14. Clarion

    Clarion Snow on the Sahara

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    For me, I was really adamant that Mega Heracross is not exactly broken because there are a lot of Pokemon that would take a beating and deal damage as significant as Mega Heracross. I posted this statement before:

    Now, the reason why Mega Heracross can't play to its fullest potential is decreased Speed. At the expense of its increased bulk, Base 75 Speed (compared to the Normal Heracross's 85) won't help in outrunning some Pokemon. The most common thing a Mega Heracross can do is to invest in its insane bulk and tank hits. However, it's not enough if it manages to get hit by Super-effective moves from the likes of Fire Punch/Fire Blast/Flare Blitz Infernape, V-Create Victini, Brave Bird Staraptor and such, therefore it will tend to switch out or lose Mega Heracross that way.

    However, Speed isn't much of an issue to Mega Heracross, and what makes Mega Heracross stand out in my opinion is its insane bulk that would force someone to have a powerful super-effective attack (not just simply a super-effective one as Mega Heracross survives even super-effective ones!). This has changed my perspective and has convinced me that Mega Heracross is unhealthy for the tier; therefore, I would lean towards ban on Heracronite.
     
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  15. Just Do It

    Just Do It No one cares

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    Just Do It
    I've seen some great opinions here by Pro UU players. I will give my short opinion about it too.

    MegaCross has an amazing attack stats with some bulk. His ability makes it a good user of moves like Rock Blast, Pin Missile & Bullet Seed and he can still go hard with Close Combat. I've used him for a few times and I've seen teams struggle with him. He can destroy most stall & balanced teams. As stated above, their a few pokes who can take a hit and then try to cripple it with moves like Will O Wisp. His bulk actually makes up for his lower speed, meaning that he take a hit (even some super effective ones) and then KO it. Most of the time when I face MegaCross, I need to sack a Pokemon to try and revenge kill it. I don't think that's a game play that we all need to have for getting 1 Mega Poke out of the way. As much as I like MegaCross, this one needs to get a ban ASAP.
     
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  16. C AllStar

    C AllStar Member

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    Seriously I don't get that why something completely ruining a playstyle shouldn't be banned. A balanced tier should allow every playstyle to be equaly viable. Currently PO UU is the single hardest metagame for stall sans something like RBY or DPP LC. Mega Heracross is a large part of the situation. Basically your 'counters' to it are either not that viable (Gligar, Granbull) or unreliable (Crobat, Granbull, Aromatisse).

    This is even worse when Mega Heracross is bulky as fuck and doesn't care about uninvested attacks from stall pokemon. It can basically come in with little cost against stall staples such as Umbreon, Bronzong(even psyichic stab doesn't do enough), Registeel etc and proceed to wreck teams several times. Stall teams are forced to play extremely aggresively against Mega Heracross especially when facing people who knows how to use it such as Accelgor where I am forced to play insane mindgames with my physically defensive Mega Aerodactyl in order to kill his Mega Heracross. The problem of this is one wrong prediction for the stall perspective is the stall core being broken and its basically gg. While stall cannot punish opponents as much for predicting wrong due to its passive nature. Mega Heracross forcing stall to adapt to take stupidly high risks should push it over the edge. It should definitely be Banned.
     
  17. Gandalf!

    Gandalf! New Member

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    Many more than reasonable arguements for banning Heracronite have been stated. I was one of Accelgor's victims, and
    ThatMushroom gave good reasons as well.
    I would only add that the investment in speed is extremly useful as well. It means that if for any reason one of Heracross's partners is killed with something slower than Heracross, then Heracross can switch in and get something (nearly anything) smashed with appropriate prediction; as nothing resists all of its masive damaging moves. Then you can switch out of the "revenge killing", and repeat the process over and over again. Fuerthermore, still wothout HP investment, Mega Heracross is bulky enough to tank many powerfull moves.
    For example, think of it while being stuck to the move:
    252 Atk Victini Zen Headbutt vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 194-230 (64.2 - 76.1%)
    It's certainly not "unstoppable", but in my oppinion it gives a good user a clear advantage (against ANY counter-strategy).
    As far as I'm concerned, we need a ban here
     
  18. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    I think most of what Mega Heracross is already mentioned here, and despite its inability not to be able to equip choice items, Mega Heracross is still really difficult to play around because of its wide movepool. Furthermore Gligar doesn't like being crippled by the lack of eviolite if Mega Hera goes for Knock Off, and Gligar isn't really overly useful in the meta anyway because of its lack of offensive presence which makes it set up bait for sub users. Because it is difficult to play around, you usually end up sacking a pokemon just to switch an appropriate check in safely and only be able to force it out. I think many are overestimating Mega Heracross' bulk here, while on one hand it does have really good 80/115/105 defenses, but they are let down by its poor defensive typing, fire/flying/psychic/fairy moves being one of the most common moves in the tier and not having reliable recovery to tank hits doesn't help it at all. Its strengths overshadow its poor defensive typing and speed, and I might as well hop on the bandwagon and vote for a ban.

    Also this must be a wish come through for ThatMushroom.
     
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  19. Nemesis

    Nemesis Sexiest Magikarp alive

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    ! HC ! Nemesis
    Trying this set on a Sticky Web team atm:
    Heracross @ Heracronite
    Trait: Moxie
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Rock Blast
    - Pin Missile
    - Focus Punch
    - Substitute
    The strategy: come in on something weak, set up a sub, kill something with Rock Blast or Pin Missile and maybe also with Focus Punch if these moves don't hit hard enough. Grab one or two Moxie boosts until the sub dies, then mega-evolve and OHKO the whole tier. Sticky Web gives free +1 Speed.
    Basically it's the good old Scarf Hera that was known as the King of BW2 UU, just with the ability to switch moves and finally get an insane Atk stat and great bulk. It literally blows through whole teams, this thing is so broken that playing isn't really fun anymore. BAN THIS IMMEDIATELY

    Also, who uses Bullet Seed, Fighting/Rock/Bug gives near-perfect coverage and Bullet Seed can't cover the things that are missing.
     
  20. just2bquiet

    just2bquiet Member

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    MHeracross isnt as broken as diggersby in the sense that it doesnt get any good priority and it also has a counter in Cofagrigus (yeah lol one counter)

    252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 110-135 (34.3 - 42.1%) -- approx. 87.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    You have approximately a 31.25% chance to crit atleast one rock blast/bullet seed too so it's not even a reliable counter.

    I think the best (or only) ways of dealing with Mhera is either intimidate juggling or sacing a teammate just to be able to force it out with something like Victini.

    I tried laddering with MHera and it literally won matches by itself, racking up 2-6 kills every match, it doesn't even need much support although Chandelure makes a nice partner to take on will-o-mew and Strong fire-type attacks directed at Heracross.

    It's essentually a Heracross on steroids, destroying all its previous counters but without the option to run a choice scarf. Ban please.
     
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  21. rriiver

    rriiver Proud Member of VIO and TR

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    I've laddered pretty high with mega hera to the top 5 to be more exact. It is a mega that is pretty scary with wish and nice Pokemon to support it. There are tons of counters for it that can switch in that people should use...like...gligar..trevant kinda can...arcanine granbull Cofagrigus mentioned in the post above me... it shouldnt be mega heras fault that players dont have the knowledge to use them. Also there's this thing called predicting that u can do to switch into heracross. Now about sticky web heracross...Ive done over 200 battles in the tier and have only seen it twice. It is not used or people are not using it very well..I would hate to see the only decent stall breaker in this tier that doesnt die so quickly go cause the tier will become less fun with stalls and mega aggron all over the place.... Also lets not forget even though this thing has excellent bulk its still slow...it has no priority also. So its not hard to revenge kill....Anyway...Im undecided atm even though it will prob get banned id hate me to see it be ou when its garbage there cause of its slow speed and no priority.... anyway cac... and a vid of me ladddering with it are below.

    Thank You



    252 Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Cofagrigus: 110-135 (34.3 - 42.1%) -- approx. 87.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    -1 252 Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arcanine: 156-184 (40.6 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    -1 252 Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arcanine: 220-270 (57.2 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery After the hit u can morning sun or willo.
    252 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Trevenant: 255-305 (68.1 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sitrus berry recover its close to a 3hko


     
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  22. Edna

    Edna I'm like Cinderella with an umbrella Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    There's 3 major sets that you can play on M.Hera : Full Hp, in balanced teams, Full speed with sticky web support, and smashpass teams.
    To begin with, the moves that you can most likely see on M.Hera are: Pin Missile, Close Combat,Rock Blast, Swords Dance, Eq, Knock off, and Bullet seed.

    When it's full HP, the closest counter is Cofa as stated before, and Gligar to an extend.

    When it's Full Speed with sd, it has no counters, nothing can switch in M.Hera, everything is about predictions though.

    For Smashpass teams, there's nothing to say about it. Something to set up SR, Smashpass to M.Hera, his natural bulk is enough for him to resist Priority moves, then sweep the team.

    Mega Hera is completely broken due to the lack of good walls like Skarmory or Gliscor. Chandelure and Hydreigon are really good partners to M.Hera and can both take Mew on the switch with the Super Effective stab moves.

    Therefore, I vote Ban
     
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  23. rriiver

    rriiver Proud Member of VIO and TR

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    Hmm nobody runs full hp it makes no sense too. Skarmory and Gliscor dont wall Mega Hera. Gliscor can stall it out with toxic but rock blast and bullet seed does alot and adament cc to skarmory is 2hko. mega hera doesnt need hydregion or chandelure cause it can outpseed mew that runs max def and hp with jolly. I haven't seen anybody smash pass to mega hera so there's no reason to mention it when its not used it the meta.
     
  24. Um Hello?

    Um Hello? Member

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    Arcanine 6.89357 1863
    Cofagrigus 1.79462 485
    Granbull 0.943565 255
    Gligar 2.44587 661
    Trevenant 2.30156 622

    Also considering that only 2 of these have reliable recovery (Trevenant not really.), and if they're constantly switching in in order to beat Mega Hera they're going to get worn down very quickly.


    If there are 5 'counters' (they aren't even counters considering Gligar can't do anything at all to MHera unless you have Toxic or Aerial Ace (lol), Arcanine is weak to rocks, and automatically loses to 1 rock blast crit, Cofagrigus generally doesn't want to max 252/252+ Def, and even then suffers against the occasional Knock Off MHera, Granbull is pretty average at best in the tier, and, whilst Trevenant is -ok- you can't even switch it in to Mega Hera unless it goes for a CC,


    If Mega Hera was to be banned, it's hard to say what impact it would have on the metagame, however, that's simply not relevant, the entire point of thread is, "Is Mega Heracross" (Heracronite) Broken?,
    not, "If Heracronite was to be banned, would stall become more prevalent?"

    Lastly, predicting the right move is not a solid argument very often. You can get predicted just as badly as you can predict the opponent, so there's no logic there to hold onto.
     
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  25. Edna

    Edna I'm like Cinderella with an umbrella Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    @rriiver, they do, especialy Gliscor with toxic stalling
    252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 130-155 (36.7 - 43.7%) -- approx. 2.7% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal

    Btw, full hp has pretty good usage, so I don't know what you're saying :o
    And I saw lot of times Smashpass, you got lucky lol :)
     
  26. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    Max HP is probably its best set, refer to post #2 here for reasons why.

    Dear leaders, can we please ban these things already? People are talking about Mega Hera vs Skarm and Gliscor because there's literally nothing else to talk about. Ban already oml.
     
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  27. rriiver

    rriiver Proud Member of VIO and TR

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    @Carlmurray

    # 10 - 1.43 % (71 battles)

    Heracross @ Heracronite Lv. 100 -- Guts (8.5 %) / Moxie (91.5 %)

    Nature: Adamant - EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def (64.8 %)

    Am I missing something?
     
  28. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    Moveset usage stats don't determine what the best sets are. I remember when the Mega Garde suspect was going on the #1 used Mega Garde set had T-bolt on it which was really retarded. Even now, the best set it still can run is 3 attack Will-o because it has no use for CM and Will-o cripples all its counters, and 3AWoW is sitting at #10 in usage.
     
  29. rriiver

    rriiver Proud Member of VIO and TR

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    Was talking to carl bro
     
  30. Edna

    Edna I'm like Cinderella with an umbrella Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Yeah, seems Smogon and PO usage aren't very similar.
    Anyway, hull hp hera is very usefull, since it can resist some super effective hits non stab moves and can switch in for more hits.
    That's why I said Chandy is a good partner because if you play a bulky set you won't be outspeeding Mew.
    You can also try rest talk Knock off Pin Missile for a defensive set, proves enough that M.Hera is broken and unpredictable
     
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  31. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Let me start off by saying I don't think Mega Heracross is broken.

    First of all I don't believe Max HP to be its best set as this leaves it outsped by basically every Offensive pokemon in UU including things like Crawdaunt, as well as some walls like walls like Florges and Arcanine, so hitting 210 Speed is much more preferable imo.

    Vs. Offense Mega Heracross, despite its great bulk, finds very limited opportunities to switch in since there are so many commonly used pokemon that can outspeed and outright OHKO it or OHKO after Rocks, and the vast majority can 2HKO, so it can't really ever switch in to something. If it does happen to find itself with a free switch in, then yes it is incredibly threatening as most Offensive pokemon are 2hko'd by even resisted Pin Missile's and Close Combat's. However it isn't difficult to build a team with good enough synergy to resist all of Mega Heracross' attacks, and despite prediction being a 2 way street the pressure is far more on Mega Heracross since if it doesn't predict correctly its almost guaranteed to be outsped the next turn. There's also a huge number of pokemon that can kill even 252HP Mega Hera from full, Mega Gardevoir, Darmanitan, Victini, Mega Medicham, Mega Alakazam, Crobat, Offensive Arcanine, Staraptor. Then After Rocks Mega Manectric, Hydreigon, CB Crawdaunt all have good chances to OHKO, and fitting but 1 of these pokemon on Offense is certainly not a challenge

    Vs. Stallier or Bulkier teams, there are a fair few pokemon that have great niches in UU that can be used to completely wall Mega Heracross such as Granbull and Gligar, and it isn't beyond the realms of possibility to adjust some sets to effectively put a stop to Mega Heracross, like running HP Flying on Phys Def Zapdos, that isn't 'overcentralising' imo, just effectively preparing for one the tiers most effective wall breakers, and has uses beyond Mega Hera.

    Overall I feel like Mega Heracross' low speed leaves it easy prey to lots of very common offensive pokemon in the tier, and that building a well synergised Offesnive team can put huge amounts of pressure to predict correctly. As for Defensive teams there are good options they can use (such as Gligar and Granbull) even Weezing and Physically Defensive Ghost types like Cofagrigus and Dusclops (though I'll admit these are less viable, but have niches now that they can run Toxic Spikes), as well as adjusting standard sets to effectively prepare for Mega Hera.

    Because of the reasons stated above I find Mega Heracross not broken.

    I look forward to your response Mr. Mushroom. (strokes cat)
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2014
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  32. Supremacy

    Supremacy New Member

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    not sure if your arguments are any good tbh.. your first argument is just considered revenge killing, and more than half of the poke's that you named would get outsped after sticky web.. and then your second argument about synergy is just considered prediction which is a weak argument
     
  33. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    The EVs are subjective but PM/CC/RB/EQ are like mandatory on it. When I used Hera I ran it with max HP because walls like Arcanine that can burn me aren't threatening to the rest of my team whatsoever so I usually just switched out. The problem is Arcanine/Florges will usually be the ones coming in on Hera and Rock Blast easily 2HKOes both of them while a defensive Arcanine's Flare Blitz only does like 75 and Florges's Moonblast does around 65. You're not going to switch a Mega Hera in to an Arcanine or Florges, and since they are the walls in this situation they will be the ones coming in on Hera, not be in a perfect 1v1 situation. Personally I feel like max HP is better because it makes the thing nigh unbreakable.

    People have tried to use this argument for several mons, and I just think it's way too general of an argument. No offensive mon in this tier has many opportunities to switch in. Victini is pretty bulky and fast with Scarf right? Chandy, Crawdaunt, Mega Hera, Hydreigon, Crobat, Weavile, Diggersby, etc make it extremely hard to switch in and OHKO it a large majority of the time. That's what I don't like about that argument. Hera actually has insane bulk and very good resistances so it's probably the easiest offensive mon to switch in to the tier, but again this doesn't matter because you could say Staraptor, Crobat, Victini etc make it hard for it to switch in.

    I don't think it's easy to build a team which resists all 4 coverage moves by Mega Hera, doesn't that pretty much mean 4 of your team slots are dedicated to stopping 1 mon? It isn't even stopping it though, you just have to hope you guess right. I also think that the pressure is much more on the recieving end of the horn because it's a 50/50 that if guessed wrong can cause you to lose your mon, and even outspeeding it the next turn doesn't mean it's going to die. As I stated before the only way a large majority of teams deal with Mega Hera is to sack something then attempt to revenge kill, but that isn't even possible without a Flare Blitz/V-create or Brave Bird..which severely limits what revenge killers you can use on your team. Things you think might be able to OHKO like 252+ Hydreigon's Fire Blast does a pathetic 73%.

    Again, it's Fire/Flying types that you're limited to which are all rocks weak. Most MegaZams I run into run Psyshock and that does a sad 85% and Mega Medicham's Psycho Cut only has a 56% to OHKO. This thing is so broken that you don't even consider attempting to wall it because its "counters" are so garbage (and not guaranteed/lack recovery) that you just accept the fact that you'll need to revenge kill it, but you can't even pick a revenge killer that's not rocks-weak and are forced to run a Fire/Flying type just to be able to OHKO the piece of shit.

    --252 SpA Mega Manectric Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Heracross: 192-228 (52.7 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    --252+ SpA Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Heracross: 246-290 (67.5 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    --252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 302-356 (82.9 - 97.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Quite sad really.

    Granbull and Gligar are both sitting at less than 2.5% usage, with Granbull not even making 1%. Granbull also has no recovery meaning it will easily get worn down. Gligar is probably the best answer to Mega Hera but still these mons are a struggle to fit on good stall/balanced teams and Gligar especially lacks any offensive presence, meaning Hera can just switch out to Hydreigon or whatever and rape whatever switches in. These mons require immense support because their niches are so minimal, and speaking personally, building a team around these kinds of mons isn't worth it because of the huge holes your team will have, so I just said fuck it and stuck a Scarf Vic on my team. My strategy for dealing with Hera is sack something, go into Vic and hope they don't have a Slowbro or Chandelure on their team. I think that's how most people "deal" with it, which is disgusting. The only way of dealing with this mon is revenge killing it, and that isn't even possible without a select few revenge killers that all happen to be rocks weak.
    Only Fire/Flying types will be able to OHKO Hera though and its bulk more than makes up for its low speed. And again, it is much riskier for the player on the recieving end to predict wrong than Hera because Hera doesn't have to worry about getting OHKOed by your revenge killer if it isn't a Fire/Flying type.
    I don't think these options are good at all tbh, evidenced by them not even being able to break 2.5% usage, some not even 1%. I don't know if you've used stall or balanced and tried to incorporate these mons into your team, but I have. They don't carry their own weight, they need Wish support to take hits because they lack recovery, Heal Bell support because they can't get statused or it makes their job more impossible, etc. and doing all this for one mon (and giving your opponent a free turn to do whatever they want) is not acceptable, and this is for one mon.

    It just needs to go dude, if this goes to a vote I'm going to start passionately weeping and subsequently have a mental breakdown, that'll be on your hands Windblown. It really shouldn't go to a vote anyway because it is 15 for the ban and 2 against and the 2 against really have just boiled down to "just revenge kill it" and "use Gligar". I apoligize if I oversimplified yours and Proof's posts but that is really what I got out of it.
     
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  34. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Just imagine I've quoted your responses in-between all my responses, cuz i cba to do tha :[

    I know Florges and Arcanine will be the ones switching in to Mega Hera, but I feel like it's better to sacrifice a bit of bulk so that you can 2HKO them before they Wisp/deal very solid damage to you, and I guess it depends on the scenario but you're not always going to be predicting correctly and Rock Blasting on the switch.

    As for it having limited opportunities to switch in, this is because it has 0 Immunities and has no priority meaning if it switches in on something, it's usually going to have to take 2 hits before it can retaliate, which with the offensive prowess of many UU pokemon will mean lights out for Mega Heracross despite its bulk. Other pokemon such as Victini have good Bulk and High Speed, and things like Diggersby, Chandelure and Crawdaunt have immunites and/or Priority. And if all pokemon have trouble coming in but literally none of them are as slow as Mega Heracross, that makes Hera less effective than these other pokemon surely?

    No a well synergised team isn't dedicating 4 slots just to counter Mega Heracross, they just have pokemon to resist majority of types in the game, and simple Cores of Mew + Crobat cover all your bases in 2 mons, it's still by no means safe for offense since you risk losing a pokemon, but it's not guaranteed kills whenever it comes in.

    Why do you always ignore the Psychic types I mention, Mega Zam, Mega Medi and Mega Garde can all OHKO pretty reliably and neither carry the Fire or Flying type, and aren't Rock weak. If Mega Heracross is at 100% then its revenge killers are basically limited to Offensive pokemon with Super Effective STAB attacks, and lets just leave it there.

    252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Heracross: 291-343 (79.9 - 94.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Heracross: 320-377 (87.9 - 103.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    252 SpA Mega Manectric Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Heracross: 280-330 (76.9 - 90.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ SpA Mega Manectric Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Heracross: 306-362 (84 - 99.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    These are the sets I was referring too, though I will admit Timid Manectric's chance to KO after Rocks was lower than I thought.

    It doesn't matter what usage they're sitting at, they are effective Counters to Mega Heracross and have uses outside of Walling it. Granbull provides Heal Bell support for itself and its Teammates, and also effectively Counters many other Physical threats such as Mega Medicham, Weavile, Salamence and Checks Scolipede, Terakkion, Haxorus, Mega Absol, has Fairy/Ground coverage and can spread Paralysis quite easily. Gligar can gain momentum with U-Turn, Defog away Rocks and also effectively wall many UU Physical threats, though Knock Off has diminished its role somewhat. Also the other 3 I mentioned, though they aren't as effective are still able to do so, and all have niches outside of walling Mega Heracross, so its not all for 1 mon, primarily yes, but you're no just handicapping yourself by running them. And if you choose to not run them, then be prepared to rely on good synergy and prediction.

    And it doesn't matter how many people support it, all that matters is the legitimacy of their argument.
     
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  35. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    Nps
    That's going to take away too much from Hera's bulk, to outspeed Arcanine you need 166 EVs in speed and that's not worth it at all imo. With max HP you can live anything from those two and KO and still be at decent health.

    Well it's 10x riskier for whatever Hera is forcing out to stay in and get OHKOed than it is for Hera to Rock Blast on the obvious switch to Florg/Arcanine but I don't want to get too deep into prediction arguments.
    I don't think so, I mean those mons are all pretty frail, (barring Victini) resistance or not they get OHKOed by common moves in the tier with rocks up. Draco from Hydreigon/Mence, Water Pulse from Blastoise, Hyper Voice from Garde etc. and the only way to take advantage of their immunities is if a mon is locked in or prediction (which is a bad argument).

    But that's still a 50/50 for the player on the recieving end, is he going to PM or RB. Guessed wrong breaks your core leaving Hera free to spam whatever coverage move it wants.
    I didn't dude, here's a quote from my post: "Most MegaZams I run into run Psyshock and that does a sad 85% and Mega Medicham's Psycho Cut only has a 56% to OHKO."
    I forgot to mention Garde, but yes Garde is the only non-Fire/Flying mon OHKO a max HP Mega Hera.

    Most Psychic types don't OHKO it though.

    252+ SpA Life Orb Latias Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 296-351 (81.3 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    0 SpA Mew Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 152-182 (41.7 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
    4 SpA Slowbro Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 152-182 (41.7 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

    You're pretty much left with Flying/Fire types and Garde, and Garde never really acts as a revenge killer for most teams because it's so slow compared to scarfers and stuff, but yes Garde is the only thing that can OHKO that isn't weak to rocks iirc.

    Most run Timid so that's not really in your favor, but yes only when Hera has taken rocks damage a 252+ LO Fire Blast will OHKO. I think removing hazards in this tier is extremely easy though (probably the easiest in any tier ever because of amazing defoggers/spinners that fit on any team and do their jobs unhindered) but yea if rocks are up it KOes.

    You pretty much never see Modest Megaman, and Timid only has a 25% to KO so it's not in your favor at all. I also think Flamethrower is a way better option (and more common) than Overheat because of the accuracy and you won't have to switch out after you use it, and as I showed before Flamethrower does a sad 55%.
    It bothers me though that we're talking about revenge killing like it's an acceptable way to deal with a mon, like that "revenge killing is not a valid argument" notion seems to have left the building.
    So your answer to stall/balanced (which MegaHera always fists) team users that get completely plowed through 6-0 by the thing is basically run Gligar and Granbull or predict well? Balanced and stall teams usually don't care about momentum from U-turn and there are a waterfall of better, multi-purpose defoggers in the tier. Granbull is decent but the lack of recovery really fucks it and it gets worn down very easily, meaning again, that you're going to need Wishpassing and things of that sort to make it function which also leave huge holes in balanced/stall teams. Have you actually tried using these mons on a stall or balanced team? This is somewhat equivalent to Gandalf! in the Diggersby suspect suggesting to us all that we run physically Drifblims and Mismagiuses and saying that Digg isn't broken because you have these "options" available to you. Yes Gligar and Granbull aren't as trash as those two but they perform very poorly in this tier from my experience and require a ton of support. It's a cancerous mon that has 0 switch ins in the tier and is only dealt with by being revenge killed by a handful of rocks-weak mons. The thing is toxic for the tier and needs to go afap.
     
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  36. Nemesis

    Nemesis Sexiest Magikarp alive

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    ! HC ! Nemesis
    252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast / Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir: 280-335 (100.7 - 120.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast / Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 365-435 (144.8 - 172.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manectric: 300-355 (106.7 - 126.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    Didn't even have to calc for Pin Missile.
    This shows pretty well that there are no offensive switch-ins for Hera. Defensive 'mons get fucked anyway.

    Using revenge-killers as an argument is nonsense, especially if 90% of these are still outsped with Web up, which is pretty common with Mega Hera. Latias and Flying-types may be able to outspeed and revenge kill him, but he can just switch out and come back later to take out a 'mon every time. There are literally no options against this thing, except some absurd counters like Granbull, 252/252+ Def Cofagrigus and Aerial Ace Gligar. It may be that they are safe answers to Mega Hera, but if a suspect debate gets to the point where people desperately search for revenge killers and try to create weird sets with the only purpose to counter a 'mon, we don't even need to discuss its brokenness and overcentralization any further.
     
  37. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    To each their own I guess, bulk investment and speed investment have their pros and cons.

    Like I said it all depends on the scenario, you can't objectively state its riskier for something to stay in Vs. Mega Heracross.

    But they all have immunities to take advantage of, and either outspeed or have priority so can get off at least 1 hit before going down. And as I stated previously, if Mega Heracross cannot survive the same attacks as these frailer pokemon, and is also far slower than them, then surely that puts it in worse standing than other offensive pokemon in the tier?

    I stated it wasn't safe, but since Mega Heracross finds such limited opportunities to come in Vs. Offense barring a free switch caused by a Ko'd teammate, it shouldn't matter too much, and synergising well can stop Mega Heracross getting guaranteed kills without predicting.

    Well the most commonly used sets atm are running Psychic, for its higher bp I guess, and Mega Medicham can just Fake Out if necessary, and both are guaranteed after Rocks anyway.

    Well Garde is a revenge killer in this situation, and i said 'its revenge killers are basically limited to Offensive pokemon with Super Effective STAB attacks'. And I didn't state that every pokemon that fit this description could OHKO it.

    Well if its so easy to remove Hazards in this tier and we can't always expect Heracross to have taken Rocks damage then surely its Fire and Flying types revenge killers aren't at any disadvantage either? In fact Fire Flying types are more likely to have support from Hazard removers.

    Yeah I stated that Timid did less than I thought, and I was just clearing up the sets I was talking about since I obviously didn't mean Scarf Hydreigon or Flamethrower Manectric. And both Flamethrower and Overheat have their uses.

    Not once did I state that revenge killing a pokemon was an acceptable way to deal with it, but that is how Offensive teams usually function since they lack defensive pokemon to sponge hits, they usually have to end up sacking and revenge killing, and I was just showing the amount of common Offensive that can can revenge kill Mega Heracross should the situation arrive.

    If you are choosing to run a defensive team in this meta, and you don't want to run pokemon that can offensively pressure Mega Heracross, and/or feel you cannot rely on your teambuidling or prediction skills, then there are complete stops out there such as Cofagrigus, Granbull and Gligar, all of which have perfectly good niches in the tier. And since when has Wish Passing been a hindrance to Defensive teams? it's almost always the crux of the teams, keeping every member healthy to take on the appropriate threats they may face.

    No actually, I've used it with offense though in a simple 2 wall core and performed very well, even without Wish Support. Gligar I've not used personally but I've seen friends put it to very good use.

    Well I've used Granbull and forund it to be very effective and @Proof achieved #1 for a long time with a Gligar on his team, I'm only stating this since you've previously used people achieving high ranks with certain pokemon as evidence for a pokemons effectiveness like you did with Mega Heracross and @Accelgor when it is likely more down to the users skill than the pokemon themselves.

    Do you c/p this part on to the end of every post or do you honestly forget basically all points I made, because everything you state here has been proven false in my previous statements, I don't mean to sound rude here its just frustrating that you end your argument like this as it makes me feel like you haven't really absorbed anything I've said. I mean I don't really mind if you haven't, as long as the tier leaders have.



    If we started banning things because Gardevoir and Alakazam can't take hits from them, there wouldn't be a pokemon left in this tier. And although you're right that basically no offensive pokemon can switch in on Mega Hera completely safe, your calcs are not what proves that.

    Web is situational, and these pokemon are perfectly viable options if you are looking for reliable answers to Mega Heracross and don't want to rely on offensive pressure to keep it in Check.


    Edit: Afro Vs. The World Pt II :]
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2014
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  38. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    True, but personally I feel like the pros of bulk greatly outweigh the pros of speed because Mega Hera isn't fast anyway and the only thing it's going to be outspeeding with speed investment is uninvested walls whereas bulk max HP lets you take essentially nothing from like LO Fire Blast for Hydreigon.

    Well if you're bringing in a wall to Mega Hera then the mon you have out in front of it will probably get OHKOed by it, but yea this is all situational talk.

    Again, the only way you're going to take advantage of immunities is if a mon is locked in on a move or prediction (which is irrelevant). Also, the mons with priority are usually all very frail like Luc, Crawd, Weav, etc. so unless they're sashed they will get OHKOed by common moves. I don't think this "has trouble switching in" argument is valid as I stated before because theoretically no offensive mon in the tier switches in with ease.

    Doesn't Crobat find limited opportunites to switch in as well? Rocks-weak and gets OHKOed by Draco Meteors, Outrages, Psychics, T-bolts etc. That argument is just way too general to be taken seriously imo.
    I wouldn't refer to the usage for what the mons best sets are, when we were doing the Garde suspects the #1 set had T-bolt on it. I think Psyshock is 10x better because otherwise you get walled by stuff like Florges and Snorlax, but yea after rocks it's guaranteed.

    Still, stuff like Latias and MegaZam still can't OHKO at full health.

    Fair enough, you are still revenge killing it though meaning it KOed one of your mons already.

    Agreed, I just personally think Flamethrower is better for most scenarios.

    I don't think so, I've used HO and offensive teams before and I didn't feel like I was constantly sacking. Hydreigon is a pretty effective check vs stuff like Chandy, Victini, Slowbro, Zam stuff like that. Megaman can check Crawdaunt, Weavile, Rachi etc. Mega Hera has 0 checks for offensive teams. I define an offensive check by a mon that can live at least 1 hit from any of the-mon-it's-trying-to-checks's coverage move. A mon like this doesn't exist for offensive teams, meaning you are constantly trying to revenge kill it. And as stated numerous times before, this isn't possible without a very select group of revenge killers. Literally the only way for offensive teams to deal with Hera is to revenge kill it, I've played HO and balanced offense and I don't rely on revenge killing as my only way to deal with a mon.
    Sacking+revenge killing is literally the only way offensive (and balanced/stall) teams deal with Hera. It has 0 viable offensive checks and 0 viable counters (idc if you think Granbull and Gligar are decent, but from my experience they require waay too much support and leave huge defensive gaps in your team) in the tier and forces you to deal with it only by sacking+revenge killing.
    Sacking then revenge killing is the only way to deal with this thing. You can't seriously tell me to build a team around Granbull, sorry but that thing is horrible and building a team around it is going to leave massive holes in your team. Not only that but the amount of support it's going to require the lack of major niche is way too much to ask from a balanced or stall team.

    You seriously told me to build a team around Granbull. For one mon. If these things had actual niches in the tier they wouldn't be struggling to get 2.5% usage (with Granbull not even at 1%), and Cofagrigus isn't a complete stop to Hera whatsoever. It takes 38% from Rock Blast with max investment and has no recovery, meaning the second time it switches into a Rock Blast Hera just outspeeds and KOes it for the 3HKO. A physdef Cofag is going to threaten nothing, so Hera has no reason to stay in like a dummy and eat a WoW. The next time Hera comes in, Cofag dies. There goes your "counter".

    It's more common on stall, I don't think it's that common on balanced teams, but it becomes mandatory if you want to support the heap of shit that's going to check 1 mon.

    I'll take your word for it, so you guessed right on 50/50s every time? Because that's all that Crobat+Mew core is, it's you hoping you guess right or get swept.

    Fair enough, I shouldn't take one persons success with Mega Hera as you shouldn't with Gligar. Proof is the only person I've ever seen use Gligar though, and I'm just assuming here but I don't think he just slapped it on his team. Again, assuming, but I think he got smashed by Hera multiple and decided to build a team around something he found that beats Hera and also has recovery. This still boils down to you telling us to either run Gligar/Granbull or get 6-0ed, which is what Gandalf! in the Digg suspect was telling us with physdef Mismagius and Rotom-N. These mons are just awful and you can't seriously expect for us to run this shit for one mon. I can't fathom how you could post that.

    That part is geared more towards the tier leaders because I want this discussion to end already, but here's what I got out of your posts and correct me if I'm wrong.

    It's basically "Hera has a hard time switching in on offense" (which every offensive mon does), "you can revenge kill it", and "use Gligar and Granbull". Tell me if I missed something because I don't think I did.

    I'd again like to state that it's 15 for the ban and 2 against, just because I'm paranoid about this going to a vote even though I know it won't.
     
  39. Insane Soul

    Insane Soul Griffith did nothing wrong.

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    After a grand discussion, Orcelot, Windblown and me have come to agree that Heracronite should be banned from the XY UU tier.
    Mega Heracross boots amazing defenses for the purpose he serves, which is a purely offensive pokemon, in this case a stallbreaker. These defenses allow him to survive virtually everything that isn't a super effective move or a move that isnt boosted through other moves (like Dragon Dance) or items (Choice Band/Specs).

    This becomes very threatening if we consider Mega Heracross has a movepool that is wide enough that it allows it to hit all common pokemon for neutral damage, with a 185 Base Attack and a 125 and 120 Base Power STAB moves in Pin Missile and Close Combat. Along with Rock Blast, Earthquake and the rare Knock Off/Sleep Talk/Bulk Up, Mega Heracross is immensely hard to switch into and it forces the opponent more than it forces the user to switch into the optimal move.

    Its list of counters rely too much on optimized scenarios, such as full health and no hazards in the field, with a relatively large number of checks, which can widen or shorten depending on its remaining health and the use of a Fire/Psychic/Flying pokemon. These, however, are checks, which aren't completely reliable answers to a threat like Mega Hera.
     
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