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[RBY] RBY Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by Isa, Jun 14, 2014.

  1. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    RBY OU Viability Ranking
    (credit to ZoroDark for format)

    Welcome to the RBY OU Viability Ranking! In case you're not familiar with the concept, we place Pokémon in certain ranks here, based on their impact on the tier as well as their general viability in the tier. This is an excellent help while teambuilding and it serves as a general outline of the tier.

    If you feel that a Pokémon is misplaced, feel free to make a post about it, after all that's what this thread is for. There's a couple of rules, though. First and foremost, make sure your arguments are clear. You may use usage statistics in your argument, but make sure your reasoning isn't entirely based on those. As always, be civil and don't get personal, otherwise you'll risk getting infracted.

    Pokémon are sorted into the respective categories based on how well they perform their roles.


    [​IMG]

    S Rank is reserved for Pokemon who are extremely threatening and impact the metagame in a major way. These Pokémon can either fulfill a variety of roles or are superlative in performing one task on a team.

    [​IMG] Tauros
    [​IMG] Chansey
    [​IMG] Snorlax
    [​IMG]Exeggutor


    [​IMG]

    A Rank Pokémon generally perform very well in the tier, but have some minor flaws that prevent them from fulfilling their roles consistently. Although threatening, they usually require a bit more team support than S-Rank Pokémon.

    [​IMG]Starmie
    [​IMG]Alakazam
    [​IMG]Lapras

    [​IMG]

    B Rank Pokémon usually have some sort of major flaw that prevents them from being a more common presence in the tier. However, they still are able to perform their roles very well with proper team support.

    [​IMG]
    Dragonite
    [​IMG]Gengar
    [​IMG]Slowbro
    [​IMG]Zapdos
    [​IMG]Jynx
    [​IMG]Cloyster
    [​IMG]Golem
    [​IMG]Rhydon

    [​IMG]

    C Rank: C Rank Pokémon have notable niches in the metagame, but usually require significant support. These Pokémon face competition for their roles from the higher ranked Pokémon, but can find still find use.

    [​IMG]Victreebel
    [​IMG]Jolteon
    [​IMG]Persian
    [​IMG]Articuno
    [​IMG]Hypno
    [​IMG]Kingler

    [​IMG]

    D Rank Pokémon either have an extremely small niche in the tier, or are generally outclassed by higher-ranked Pokémon in a majority of circumstances.
    [​IMG] Dodrio
    [​IMG] Gyarados
    [​IMG] Clefable
    [​IMG] Kangaskhan
    [​IMG] Venusaur
    [​IMG] Moltres
    [​IMG] Dugtrio
    [​IMG] Sandslash
    [​IMG]Kabutops
    [​IMG]Raichu
    [​IMG]Tangela
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2015
    moonwalker, sulcata, NotMafia and 7 others like this.
  2. Laurel

    Laurel Well-Known Member

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    These rankings aren't really open to much debate besides the line between A and B and S and A. I don't see any of the C pokemon in B or visa versa. x: I want to propose Gengar for A rank. It had a good move pool, I think it has the fastest sleep in the game, which makes it a really good lead. It is the only normal type immunity, and can boom. BOOM *-*
     
  3. mibuchiha

    mibuchiha Was yea ra chs ieeya.

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    I agree that Gengar should be higher. I also have a hard time seeing Lapras that high. Swap them up imo, but I never see Lapras so others might have different things to say. Otherwise A+ list.
     
  4. marcoasd

    marcoasd Well-Known Member

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    Perfect groups (Gengar is very frail and below A, and Lapras could be on top of A list), the only thing we can argue about is the order inside those goups, and Dragonite/Victreebel being B or C (Bel is on top of C, indeed, while Dragonite is as situational as many others in C rank).
    Kangaskhan, Clefable, Raichu, Sandslash, Dugtrio, Raticate, Golduck, Moltres and Charizard (to make kids happy) in the D rank.
     
  5. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    Agreeing with Marcoasd, solid list and not really anything I would change in terms of moving between tiers, might talk about ranking things within tiers later though because I'm gonna respond to Gengar moving up, since people mentioned that.

    Probably the main thing holding Gar back is that in terms of offense, it generally doesn't accomplish anything outside of sleeping something and booming on something else. I disagree with you @Laurel when you say it has a good movepool- the standard Gengar gets to run Tbolt and then chooses between Mega Drain and Night Shade for attacking options. Everything else is really situational or unreliable.

    Also, though it has the tools to be an awesome lead, in practice it isn't as great because Starm/Zam leads are everywhere and it doesn't enjoy that matchup at all.

    Also Lap's amazing, disagree with it moving down- great bulk allows it to check physical attackers, great coverage makes switching in things that aren't Chansey tough (or at the very least prediction-dependent) and even against the blob, Lapras can really apply some pressure, especially if Chansey's paralysed
     
  6. marcoasd

    marcoasd Well-Known Member

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    Actually, all of the leads rely on mindgames and teambuilding.
    Gengar has an easy switch into Exeggutor vs Alakazam: try to sleep Zam and get paralyzed in the process, in any case, avoid Seismic Toss (go to Chansey).
    Paralyzed Egg means the opponent won't get the sleep that easily, unless he has Sing Lapras or Jynx. It means he will have a better chance with Rhydon.

    Getting over this, every lead has pros and cons: I find it hard to weight them in a correct way.
    Gengar has a bad time taking sleep (that's what you want the most from him) instead of Psychic or Stun Spore/TWave (making it really bad), but can counter many risky types, causes the opponent to use useless EQs...
    Alakazam and Starmie let you start the game with some para and damage, but then it's more difficult to land the sleep. Starmie doesn't let Egg in, and is though on the physical side, Alakazam has no weakness.
    jynx is frail, but forces Thunder Wave more than anything else.
     
  7. NotMafia

    NotMafia Miltank: Destroyer of Souls

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    C Rank: C Rank Pokémon have notable niches in the metagame, but usually require significant support. These Pokémon face competition for their roles from the higher ranked Pokémon, but can find still find use.

    Kanga and Raichu could meet this description maybe? Outclassed as a physical attacker and an electric but have their specific niches (counter and surf) that make them viable and even preferential in specific situations
     
  8. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    Gengar:
    While being a fast sleeper is good, essentially in RBY there's five different leads, maybe 7 (if you include Jolteon and Hypno). Gengar is the fastest that can sleep, but Alakazam and Starmie are both common leads and Gengar should switch out against those. Once sleep is thrown, Gengar becomes a walking boom and 25%-to-Exeggutor machine, and that's it. It has no fire power in its attacks and the Poison typing really hurts. Top of B is probably where it is supposed to be at.

    Lapras:
    A superb mon, constantly underrated. Lapras has awesome bulk, decent typing defensively and great offensively, heavy-hitting Blizzards and is a non-booming specialist that also makes Chansey wary of switching in - only Alakazam can say the same about the last one. Lapras has no really bad matchups at all and can be a desperate switch in on almost everything bar STAB Thunderbolt users. It's also probably the best common mon vs. Exeggutor in the game (Articuno is better, but nobody uses that). It's not leaving A rank.

    Raichu and Kangaskhan:
    While they both have small niches, in the end Raichu is very fragile and hits for abysmal damage with its attacks and is walled by an even more common mon (Exeggutor) than the other electrics, and Kangaskhan is just difficult to fit on a team - it's not better than Tauros or Snorlax, and if you decide to use it over Rhydon or Golem, you lose out on that defensive coverage - no boom sponge, no electric check. Body Slam + HBeam isn't even a guaranteed KO on Chansey, despite having Surf it doesn't OHKO Golem, etc. etc. I could potentially see it being C material, but not Raichu.
     
  9. Dre.

    Dre. Member

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    This is probably the best tier list I've seen. I like how it acknowledges that lapras, who has traditionally been considered a fringe OU, is a tier above the true fringe OUs. I also really like the kingler respect. I do find it interesting though that you put kingler a tier above the likes of dugtrio and sandslash though. The grounds have traditionally been considered BLs whereas the crab was thought of as UU, not that I have a problem with that though.

    Only problem I have is that if this list is assuming wrap (which I assume it does because PO has wrap legal), then nite is probably S tier. It poses as much threat as tauros, and many people forego tauros for nite on wrap teams. If wrap is legal in a tourney, then nite is something you have accommodate for in your teamuilding and strategy because it's that much of a threat. Also I'd say victreebel is at least B tier assuming wrap. It's definitely a tier above venusaur. Having used victreebel extensively myself, I'd say it's definitely A tier in terms of ability, but I realise that expecting people to move bel up to A based on the opinion and experience of just one player wouldn't make sense. I'd say B tier is probably a fair comprimise. Keeping it in C rank, and in the same tier as venusaur relaly doesn't do the pokemon's ability justice though.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2014
  10. marcoasd

    marcoasd Well-Known Member

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    Victrebeel is a legit B to me (a level higher than Venusaur, of course), not more because it has too much things to worry about. Dragonite is by no means S, as it has many counters and is not as versatile as the other ones, but it could gain a lot of reputation in your hands (and in a Wrap team context). It's no secret that Dnite is misunderstood.
     
  11. Dre.

    Dre. Member

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    I could accept bel being in B instead of A just because status completely ruins it and it's 2HKO'd by basically the entire meta. I suppose it's frailty offsets its incredible offensive potential. The biggest issue I have with it not being A is that it means it would be a tier below the rocks, who I think are at least on par with bel, if not worse.

    Also, dragonite is actually pretty versatile. He's probably like top 5 in terms of versatility and the utility he brings. That's not why he should be A or S though, it's because of his sweeping potential. I guess it's kind of hard to rank nite because despite the versatility he has, the biggest threat he poses is effectively a gimmick, just a really good one.
     
  12. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    B Rank Pokémon usually have some sort of major flaw that prevents them from being a more common presence in the tier. However, they still are able to perform their roles very well with proper team support.

    Dragonite fits this description very well in my opinion. In order to do the traditional Dragonite role (AgilityWrapping a team to death), it has to receive a lot of support before coming in, which it usually only does once due to how many common threats carry either Thunder Wave, Ice Beam or Blizzard and everything that doesn't has Body Slam. The sole exception to this rule is Gengar, who is a complete wall to Wrap, and Exeggutor, but that might be carrying Stun Spore!
    Dragonite can come in on something slower, Wrap for a while without using Agility and then switch out, but it's risky - both due to accuracy but mostly because it's not easy switching it in, as clarified above.
    I am willing to move Dragonite upwards in the B tier, but not to A or S tier. It is very threatening no doubt, but it requires so much team support in order to be threatening.

    Victreebel is almost only good if paired with Cloyster and it almost forces you to forego Exeggutor - you can run them both but then you have a very weird core of a team. It is very frail, hates status and has a poor typing. The Swords Dance set is very underwhelming, the only thing that makes it a legit threat is the Wrap+Stun Spore set. I could see it moving to B rank, but not above. With that said I still believe that top of C rank is suitable for it, as it is better (on a Wrap team) than the other mons in C rank, but it faces competition from a higher ranked Pokémon (Exeggutor) and it has some crippling flaws.
     
  13. Dre.

    Dre. Member

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    I feel like a lot of nite's flaws also apply to tauros too. Tauros often needs a similar amount of support and protection, in that you try beat up and paralyse everything first, and you don't let it take hits and status. It's also inconsistent because its success is largely dependent on RNG. I just feel that nite poses a similar level of threat as tauros, but I don't mind if it only makes it to A.

    As for bel, the set I'm talking about is wrap leaf doublepowder. This to me is what makes bel A tier. This set just offers so much control and pressure throughout the game if you can keep bel unstatused. It doesn't look good on paper but when you play a lot of games with it you realise how good it is. As for bel requiring cloyster, it's preferred but not really essential. Cloy's main role is to be able to switch into physicals then apply pressure with clamp. It also switches into chansey's icebeams and attempts to apply pressure from there. If you can find other pokemon to fulfil these roles, then you can forego cloyster on a bel team.
     
  14. marcoasd

    marcoasd Well-Known Member

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    Dnite is good for you, because you use Victrebeel and Rhydon with it, and those two can put pressure on Dnite's counters, once they're paralyzed (Articuno, Lapras, Cloyster, Starmie, Gengar). And you need mindgames as well.
    Tauros is the less versatile of the 4 S-ranked, but it fits on every team: it comes into the game and can win on his own with CHs.
    Bel has A potential, but to me it's not gonna make it because A-ranked pokèmon are made of a different stuff: they are able to overcome bad luck.
    Also, Bel is a pain in teambuilding: it's in conflict with both Exeggutor and Tauros.
    The rocks are the lower ones, but they can: wall Zapdos, take Hyper Beams and fire back, take explosions, Golem can Explode and Rhydon is tough with Substitute once Egg is gone (and can hit it hard).
    It means many switch ins, including predicted TWave/electric move.
    Bel commits you to use Cloyster, like Isa said, and then a rock.
    Tauros can't switch in (and i feel I hate that) but it's your last one, and just OP when it gets that RNG.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2014
  15. Dre.

    Dre. Member

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    Bel doesn't really commit you to cloy, it just won't be able to switch in as much. You also need something to check physicals, not because that's what cloy does, but because egg does that and if you're running bel you've presumably dropped egg. I agree that bel doesn't have the potential to overcome bad luck though, so maybe it only deserves B.

    As for the rocks, I just feel like they have too many flaws to be considered A. They can't 1v1 anything except zapdos, and people exaggerate how good zapdos is when the rocks are gone. You don't need to a rock to handle zapdos. Also golem has the worst explosion in OU, because it's not likely to remove anything useful for the rest of your team. Exploders normally catch what they traditionally lure in. Golem lures in eggy, so booming on eggy is kind of weird becasue normally when you boom it's to remove a pokemon that walls one of your key offensive threats. The only thing that eggy walls is golem himself.
     
  16. marcoasd

    marcoasd Well-Known Member

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    While I don't like the rocks for their weak matchup with Tauros, it's well known that their role in the game is marginal.
    They're team players that will take benefit from paralysis, and they have the roles I've already mentioned.
    Zapdos is dangerous without a rock, but I agree it's a bit too much feared.
    Golem's Explosion isn't that bad, and you want to use it when Exeggutor is gone. Maybe it can hit Starmie, or other things like Snorlax or Tauros, but it's obviously risky. Exeggutor is an useful piece: it's the safest common counter for opponent's Egg, it's dangerous as it can boom, and Tauros and Snorlax don't want to fight it.
    While Rhydon is better, if the opponent's team is revealed and Golem has not a lot to do (but it can always try to catch Hyper Beams and explode), there's nothing that bad in booming on Exeggutor (if it hasn't scored a lot of permanent damage).
     
  17. Dre.

    Dre. Member

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    The problem is that it's hard to get a situation where their eggy is gone and your rock isn't, because most people will preserve their eggy if they know their opponent has a rock. And if eggy goes early, it's likely that it boomed on your chansey, and then it comes down whether your rock can cause more havoc than their specialists. Don't get me wrong, one of the best things about rocks is that they make eggys hesitate to boom on ur chansey, or at least they pay a penalty for doing so. It's just that the reason that golem is happy to boom on any mon is because it's worse than all of them. Unless you need your rock for something very specific (eg. to wall nite or zapdos) then it's usually the least valuable pokemon on your team. Unless you need it for something really specific it's probably more optimal to use an overall better pokemon like lapras or something.
     
  18. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    Lapras being higher than Slowbro and Dnite is a joke. They should be at least even; Lapras can make holes but both of those threaten instant Game Over. Lapras has flaws; the most glaring are "no Recover", "no Explosion" and "no physical STAB" which is a combination rare even in B rank and unseen in A or S rank.

    Either bump Lapras down or bump Slowbro and Dnite up.

    Also dump Venusaur, it's garbage because it has a grand total of one set and Victreebel does it better (guaranteed OHKO on Zam and potential OHKO on Chansey at +2) while also having the potential for Wrap so it's not blatantly obvious it's running Swords Dance. D rank at best.
     
  19. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    You're forgetting that Lapras has Sing. That instantly makes it much more valuable than Slowbro in general cases, who also can't touch Exeggutor or other Water types at all without trying to go for Amnesia. STAB on Blizzard and having Thunderbolt is pretty damn amazing as well.

    Without Agility+Wrap or wrap in general Dnite's also disappointingly mediocre, so that's probably why it's so low comparatively.
     
  20. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Badged Deucer

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    In terms of viable D Rank pokemon I want to bring up dugtrio, since it's a viable lead, working nicely paired with jynx, but obviously has a lot of flaws. Kingler deserves mention too in there as being a late game nuke, but rarely used and with notable problems too.
    Golem but not rhydon should be moved down imo. It's outclassed by rhydon completely, apart from having explosion and maybe different special moves that make virtually no difference, and outspeeding [rock vs rock almost never happens tho] ... I'm aware it has a niche, but I'm not sure whether it merits being in the same tier as rhydon, by dint of being mostly outclassed.
     
  21. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    Sing is nice, but Sleep Clause typically comes on very early in RBY and so it's not all that great. Lapras is a bad lead (vs. Alakazam it takes more than Egg, vs. Gengar/Jynx it gets slept, does okay against Starmie though), and doesn't really switch into any of the things that fly around that early (again thanks to not taking STAB Psychics all that well), unless you can double-switch on Egg which is somewhat dicey. If you delay sleep then either you're playing badly or you're paralysing stuff, in which case it's really likely that Chansey gets paralysed and Sing is useless (because the whole point of Sing Lapras is to hit Chansey with it). On top of that, Lapras has 4MSS; it can't run Sing without dropping something relatively important.

    Slowbro is the only thing in the game that can make Starmie eat Thunder Wave, which is pretty relevant given Starmie checks almost everything when unparalysed. So in terms of status it's not actually much worse than the notoriously unreliable Sing. Having to go for Amnesia vs. Waters isn't a bad thing; additionally, Slowbro can use STAB Psychic, which Waters (besides itself and Starmie) don't resist.

    STAB Blizz + Bolt is nice in theory but not all that nice in practice; Lapras' Thunderbolt can't 2HKO Starmie and isn't backed by a high enough Speed to counter Slowbro as Starmie does. It murders Cloyster and hurts other Lapras, but it's not nearly as useful as more powerful and faster Thunderbolts (Gengar's, Starmie's, the Electrics') which can 2HKO Starmie and break Slowbro better.

    Who cares about how bad Dnite is without Agility+Wrap? Dragonite always carries Agility+Wrap. This is like saying Zam would be terrible if it didn't learn Psychic. It's certainly true, but so what?

    Rock vs. Rock happens quite a lot; Golem is actually one of the better Rhydon checks.

    And Explosion is absolutely spectacular; personally, I think the ability to trade with unparalysed Chansey, trade with a Tauros countering it, and take out Starmie more reliably (still not guaranteed) is a bigger deal than a slightly higher damage range on Earthquake/Rock Slide (they actually overlap, so there's no KOs guaranteed for Rhydon but impossible for Golem). I think Golem should actually be put first in the listing (still definitely the same rank, though, no question about that).


    Also Dugtrio + Jynx is bad. They won't be switching Egg into Trio unless they lead Gengar (Starmie and Jynx both just kill it, and Zam beats it more often than not), so it's just a waste of a slot to run two "lead-only" mons. Trio probably deserves the D-rank, though; fast, crit-happy Earthquakes are really nasty and Slash gives reliable damage vs. Egg (then again, Sandslash also outspeeds Egg with Slash).
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2014
  22. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Badged Deucer

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    Okay the rock vs rock not happening often was down to my experience and what I'd asked others, I'll happily accept being incorrect on that. I was just curious about whether one outclassed the other in some way.. I'm interested to hear other plays' opinions on that.

    I understand what you're saying about Duggy. :)

    You didn't comment on Kingler, does that deserve D rank mention as well?
     
  23. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    Maybe? IDK. IIRC when I drew up my own list it was in D, but my D rank was huge.

    Oh and re: Rock vs. Rock, I meant it happens often when one player has Golem and the other has Rhydon. If you're both using the same Rock, it's rare, and obviously it's impossible if one or both of you isn't running a Rock.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2014
  24. Crystal_

    Crystal_ Active Member

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    I'm glad that people seem to finally acknowledge that Gengar is not as good as something like Snorlax. I've been saying it for some years now and nobody believed me in the past.

    Venusaur has just no place in C. Maybe if Victreebel didn't exist. Clefable on the other hand should make it to C imo. Clefable is boss.

    While I agree with magic9mushroom's reasoning about Lapras, I do still think that Lapras deserves to be a tier above Slowbro (and, of course Gengar). Lapras is just an all around great Pokemon, and the reality is that players struggle against it when they are short of healthy recover users. Consider that people usually use Chansey plus Zam/Starmie, and the latter(s) often end up being put to sleep. Lapras does have some tools to deal with relatively injured recoverers, or to deal with them in certain circumstances (Sing). And Lapras macthes up well enough against everything else.

    Whereas I hate when Slowbro feels like it's stuck in retard mode because if you want to get it going you have to risk everything, and if you don't, Surf alone is not going to get you anywhere outside of certain late-game matchups. Slowbro is still and extremely extremely annoying Pokemon to be up against though.

    All in all, I'd maybe rearrange some Pokemon quite a bit (namely, Exeggutor would be 4th, and Slowbro/Jynx would top B). Otherwise everything's perfect for me. Just drop Venusaur for Clefable. Kanga's good too. While doubling up on Victreebel won't make much sense (Venusaur), doubling up on Tauros always will.
     
  25. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    Agreed on all of this besides maybe Clefable. With a "big" C-tier including stuff like Kingler and Dodrio, Clefable's definitely C. With a "small" C-tier it wouldn't be.

    Slowbro has a significantly lower floor than Lapras (without Amnesias it's derpy, and not everything gives it a chance to set them up) but a much higher peak (6-0ing unprepared teams does actually happen, while Lapras sweeps don't because it's also fairly slow and can't use Rest as effectively). I'm not going to insist Bro be higher than Pras, but a whole tier lower is overkill; it's certainly not more worse than Pras than Pras is worse than Mie.

    Exeggutor's sorta the invisible giant. It doesn't look all that great when you're theorymonning, but in practice would you rather drop Egg or Chansey? Egg's the reason sleep is assumed to happen; without it, you stand a decent chance of playing 5-6.

    And yeah Clefable and Kanga should certainly be in C if Dodrio and Kingler are to be. My preference would be to chop C into multiple groups; the top four there (Bel, Jolt, Persian, Coon) are less off-beat than the rest IMO. Maybe they should be C+ or something?
     
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  26. Crystal_

    Crystal_ Active Member

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    Around 2/3 of my teams don't have Exeggutor and I've been fine with that so far, whereas I probably run Chansey on 75%-80% of my teams. When I run Jynx, I rarely run Eggy, or when I use Victreebel. Sometimes I just slap Sing on Chansey and get away with it. The way I see it, Tauros is the must have, Snorlax is the should have, Chansey is the typical brainless addition, and Eggy is the electric of GSC, it just always fits well.

    In the end, there's maybe a higher gap between say Alakazam and Rhydon/Golem/Lapras or between Tauros and Eggy than between the rocks and Slowbro. But just have to put the cut-off somewhere or otherwise you might as well end up creating a different tier for each 1-3 Pokemon. I agree that Slowbro should top its tier however.
     
  27. Dre.

    Dre. Member

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    Piex- Dug is a bad lead. It can't take sleep and at best simply forces a switch to eggy. Even if you read that and switch accordingly to a faster sleeper, it's honestly not worth because you're going to receive sleep anyway and you now have a gimmick pokemon on your team who has no defensive utility outside of chain-switching twaves, which is also gimmicky. Also jynx-dub is a bad combo because it means your defensive core is severely weakned. I think you're putting too much importance into early-game pressure. The most important thing to do in the early game is to try set up a good sleep trade. That means trying get a good absorber slept on your side and trying to get the worst absorber slept of their side.

    Also rock 1v1s aren't that common, and something you shouldn't really consider when choosing your rock. The only thing golem has on don is the boom, but as I've said b4 it's a bad boom. The only thing golem consistently lures in is eggy, but the only thing that booming on egg opens up on your team is golem itself.

    Magic- Lapras is more consistent than bro, it has 1v1 potential on almost everything and nothing wants to switch into it. Sing is for catching chansey or other waters by surprise, so you probably wouldn't be blowing sleep early if you're carrying sing. Tbolt isn't that good, blizz bslam cray rest is probably the best set. This thing is a nuisance to switch into a deal with, but at the same time it's bulk and stab blizzard make you respect it more than just a mere gimmick. Thing about bro is that it's like gengar, it has the potential to make big plays and cause havoc, but it's not consistent. Bro, like gar, is not threatening on turn 1, and if it doesn't set up and sweep it's inferior to another ice resist like lapras.

    The main thing I like about eggy is the fact that it's a bulky psychic. It has lots of utility and is a good check to physical pokemon, which is what I think really earns it its slot over another fast psychic.
     
  28. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    Gengar can't threaten a sweep. Bro can. Unreliable with potential for instant win > unreliable without potential for instant win.
     
  29. Dre.

    Dre. Member

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    Gengar can make big plays in the sense that it can catch an explosion, or make clutch plays with gimmicky chain switches. It's potential within a battle is theoretically high like bro's, they just both have consistency issues.
     
  30. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    High. Not as high as Slowbro's. Catching one Explosion is a gain of 1 Pokemon (which is huge). Setting up Amnesia and sweeping is a gain of 2-4 Pokemon (which is a lot MORE huge).
     
  31. Dre.

    Dre. Member

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    Yeah I guess you're right that bro's potential is higher. He's still inconsistent though.
     
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  32. Jørgen

    Jørgen Sniper

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    Not much disagreement on the list here. Gengar, Cloyster, and Dnite being lumped together in B tier just feels weird, but I guess it's fair. However, I feel pretty strongly that Venu and Dodrio are not on the same level as the other C-rankers. Kingler might be a stretch too, but I'm partial toward it so I'll let that one slide.
     
  33. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Badged Deucer

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    Can someone explain why venusaur is even on there? As far as my understanding goes, victreebell is just flat out better. The rest see legitimate rare uses, Jolteon and Victreebell being by far the most common of them though, and for that matter probably better; I'm not sure but I feel maybe some form of split between the upper and lower halves of C rank might benefit? Though really I think maybe C rank should just be for like those mons that you do bring out for occasional use, whereas D rank for mons like Kingler that are legit but for obvious reasons don't see much use. Dodrio, Persian, and Kingler would probably fill it. It would also give D rank a sensible use without just being there looking empty or being a clusterfuck, and I think only a slight altercation is maybe needed to make the description more accurate.
     
  34. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    Changes:
    Dragonite moved to the top of B rank - it will never make it to A rank though because of the team support needed.
    Slowbro moved above Zapdos and Jynx but below Gengar and Dragonite - like Dragonite, it'll stay B rank due to required amounts of team support.
    Removed Venusaur and Dodrio completely

    Not changes:
    Lapras is still in the middle of A rank
    Kingler is still C rank
    Exeggutor is still top 2


    One mon I feel shaky on is Cloyster. Where do you guys think he belongs? I'm not moving him down, but I could see him moving upwards. What do you think?
     
  35. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Badged Deucer

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    I'm kind of used to these being alphabetical within the ranks so as to not get pernickety; I feel that the rank is probably where it belongs; it certainly is an interesting pokemon within the partial-trapping metagame; that high defense offers a lot of utility but it has vulnerable special defense which is an issue with electric attacks; I find it's not too hard to force out; if it stays in versus quite a few threats it's pretty risky. Firstly looking at its relations with the S rank pokemon, the ability to switch into tauros better than almost all pokemon [barring electric tauros - which is only a thing because of cloyster anyway] without worries any more than the conventional, whilst snorlax rather dislikes cloyster especially due to the speed advantage. In terms of how to use it, its speed tier is a bit iffy; outspeeding chansey is nice but with clamp's accuracy and the commonplaceness of tbolt chansey it's a highly risky state of affairs. However, it does have the most powerful partial trapping move...... I'm not really sure how to comment on its place :/ but then looking at the B Rank definition, I think it fits within that section, and not quite within the A rank definition. So personally I am happy with where it is, and I think addressing a spot within the B rank is pernickety and unhelpful, since due to pokemon fulfilling different roles in different ways, it doesn't really pose much benefit to strictly compare. I think S rank is those 4 pokemon that if any of our best players said what is mandatory on most teams in their opinion, in terms of say 3 or 4 that you fit on 90% of your builds, then overall those 4 seem the most rational to agree upon even if individual players find dropping chansey an option or unthinkable, exeggutor as too good not to use, or having a mix of traits other pokemon can compensate for in certain circumstances. Bit rambly, bit unhelpful, but maybe stimulus.
     
  36. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    added some D rank Pokémon. I'd like to keep it small, but don't be afraid to make suggestions. Discussion regarding internal ranking of D-rank Pokémon is also welcome.
     
  37. marcoasd

    marcoasd Well-Known Member

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    Raticate can be dangerous with favorable RNG, and Raichu sees some occasional play due to Surf. Machamp is the best fighting type and has some good matchup (including the rocks).
    Charizard can use Swords Dance and Tentacruel has some good speed to use Wrap and can use Swords Dance as well.

    Those look a bit "E Rank", but Gyarados and Dugtrio have big flaws as well.
     
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  38. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    K.

    Better than the Rocks? I mean, Golem's always going to pull its weight thanks to Explosion and Rhydon can actually threaten a sweep; Lapras kinda... can't. It does have a major flaw, that being that it hasn't got either 1) a physical STAB (to go on the offense) or 2) an instant recovery move or Explosion/Selfdestruct (to give it defensive utility by either making it Not Die or making something else Die when it does). I kinda feel like it should be bumped to the top of B; it's better than Cloyster and arguably better than Bro but not by that much.

    Might think about moving Clefable up under it, then.

    Definitely. Egg is great.

    Low B's about right IMO. The last three in B are all pretty close and the first three are all pretty clearly better than any of them.
     
  39. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    Lapras has one wall that it cannot hurt reliably in the form of Chansey, but as your own calcs have shown, Lapras has decent chances to beat Chansey, and Sing is a thing as well (particularly useful on Zam/Starmie lead teams). All other Pokémon (with the exception of Jynx, who still loses the matchup if sleep has been thrown) take over 33% on average from Blizzard/Thunderbolt coming from Lapras. Alakazam only feels safe switching in on Thunderbolt, which isn't easy to get Lapras to use. Starmie only likes coming in on Blizzard on the other hand. If either are paralyzed, Lapras can put heavy, heavy pressure on them (especially if Lapras carries Confuse Ray) and force predictable plays that Snorlax or Rhydon can capitalize on. It also has superb bulk and typing that allows it to come in on a multitude of Pokémon and force them out or stay in and duel. It can be a desperate check to almost any Pokémon in the game.

    tl;dr - the difficulty of switching in something on Lapras is enormous. The best counter (Chansey) can be slept with Sing or destroyed with some parafusion luck depending on moveset, nothing else likes switching in.
     
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  40. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    The difficulty of switching in something not named Gengar on Dragonite is immensely greater than that of switching in something not named Chansey on Lapras. Gengar switching into Dragonite repeatedly is going to succumb even more surely than Chansey repeatedly switching into Lapras.

    Yes, Lapras is really annoying to deal with and can wreak some havoc given the right double-switch, but that alone isn't a justification for A-rank. Plenty of non-A-rank things can wreak havoc given lure support, which Lapras does need in order to wreak its havoc. The list of things Lapras can actually force out is basically "Rocks and Egg"; the other staples have at least even matchups, the Wrappers switch out for free (or just kill it in Victreebel's case), the Thunderbolters (Gengar, Jolteon, Zapdos) all beat it, Slowbro is a gamble (but the Lapras player stands to lose outright as opposed to just losing Slowbro), leaving only Jynx (which will probably specfall and heavily damage Lapras before going down, a decent trade considering it's already thrown sleep) and the rare Persian.