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[RBY] RBY Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by Isa, Jun 14, 2014.

  1. During Summer

    During Summer Well-Known Member

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    Jynx and Zapdos to A-Rank
    Jolteon to B-Rank
    Cloyster to C-Rank


    AND WHY I DON'T SEE RATICATE HERE???????????
     
  2. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    That's interesting because I've always considered Zam a cut above the other A rank mons =o

    Anyway I still don't see Jolteon as being on par with Zap. For me the main difference between the two is Zap's bulk- Zap's defenses are great, and are a good part of the reason it's such a threat in the endgame when stuff like Tauros come out to play. Jolteon's mediocre bulk and vulnerability to EQ means it's nowhere near as difficult to pick off lategame. Of course, lack of flying type means it gets to wall Zap and soft-checks aquatics which is nice, makes it arguably more useful midgame. I agree that it can rise, but to B rather than A imo.

    As for Jynx it's fine in A.

    Cloy I guess can drop to C, just because the meta is fairly hostile to it. Waters wall it, electrics destroy it. I mean it's a cool pokemon and can be really effective, just has way too many bad matchups

    Edit: I haven't used Rat, but I guess it can be ranked. Also Tangela is bad, I disagree with its presence on the list
     
  3. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Badged Deucer

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    Jolt should be at least B, echoing what marco's said, but perhaps not quite as strongly. I'm also agreeing with him about Starmie [it's more threatening to a lot more of the metagame than Alakazam is, it's more versatile, its physical bulk makes waking up vs everything without an electric move much much easier, so it's a better sleep absorber, and it has possibly the single best matchup vs tauros 1v1; like lax, it's one of the few pokemon that you can switch into Tauros in an emergency (e.g. when playing around with sleeping pokemon)]. Cloyster to C I can agree with, but thoughts on.. Kingler? It benefits from the fact it needs less para support than Rocks to sweep, but I think the environment is just too hostile to it at the moment to move it. Jynx is fine in either B or A, it's really top-notch as a lead [or non-lead paired with Zam/Mie lead].

    Another change I'm suggesting, that I suspect Marco might back me up on, is Moltres from D to C. It's hard to say what's changed to improve it - perhaps the all-round lesser amount of Paralysis meaning it can burn pokemon more easily, but it has fantastic matchups vs Egg/Tauros/Lax, and whilst the main problems of Starmie and Chansey still abound, due to H-Beam Chansey can't switch in at below about 60% into a fire blast, and beating Starmie is giong to be a key part of your strategy when using Moltres - the main thing that makes it less splashable - but Rocks can try and Paralyze it, Slowbro can Paralyze it, Jolteon and to a lesser extent Zapdos aren't bothered by it being burnt, and Chansey of course can wall Starmie to a decent extent (beware marco's Hyper Beam >:D). AgiliWrap Dragonite is also effective with burnt Starmie around if it can Agility up safely somehow, since the Burn will compound with the partial trapping, therefore preventing Starmie from being effective as a check. In practice it does seem to be about as effective as on paper. That base 125 Special is really awesome, its base Speed is good enough, Fire Spin and Agility are both legitimately useful (but should be used sparingly). Quite a few Pokemon can make suitable partners for it, and whilst it requires some extra considerations whilst teambuilding, the end result is generally worth it. The difference between Moltres and the other D's (and the similarity between it and the C's) is that I would legitimately consider bringing it to a serious match.

    S/o to Raish for discovering how good this Pokemon can be! =]

    Also raticate should at least be ranked D, it's legitimate. :o
     
  4. marcoasd

    marcoasd Well-Known Member

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    Jynx is more consistent than Gengar, but not good enough for the A rank: it can be dangerous due to RNG, but an A ranked can't be that frail.
    Jolteon's speed and CH rate is a big factor in the endgame, and walling Zapdos is worth a lot alone.
    As you said, Zapdos is better in the endgame as it's 3HKO'd by Tauros (including an Hyper Beam that is risky), while Jolteon is 2HKO'd by Earthquake. Still, I consider electrics a midgame tool to create holes. Jolteon pairs even better than Zapdos with Starmie: that's important these days.
    Jolteon is nowdays' GolDon, and a great lead too.
    I don't like Starmie as a lead anymore, it's great as non-lead.
    I agree that Cloyster is having a bad time, as the avarage speed increased a lot.
    Lapras was the best A ranked at the time this thread came out (and it was put up there indeed). It's still number 6 in my opinion, as the importance of Thunder Wave raised Starmie's value. These two are clashing for the same slot, but Lapras' bulk, STAB Blizzard and Sing give it a specific role.
    Moltres is dangerous due to Special, Attack and Speed, but the accuracy sucks to consider it a wrapper. Fire Blast has the same old problems with burning things like Starmie. It has a small niche: it's better than the rest of D ranked, it would be fine at bottom C.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2015
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  5. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Badged Deucer

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    Yah the use of Fire Spin is more for chip damage to get Pokemon within range (sometimes for example you have better odds fire spinning then hyper beaming rather than straight up hyper beaming versus a Chansey for example, factoring accuracy, crit rate, etc.) but it's definitely not trying to sweep with it, rather blow huge chunks of damage against whatever it's up against. If Starmie didn't exist I'd possibly consider it a mid-high B, but as it is low C is pretty fair. The 'standard' team at the moment [Jynx Zapdos Lax Tauros Egg Chansey is currently considered Standard right?] has an appalling matchup versus it, Jynx is only fine if it's un-para'd and thus outspeeding or Sleeping, Zapdos matches up well but it can't switch in, Egg, Lax, and Tauros all HATE the matchup, being burnt on top of taking huge damage [or being OHKOd in tauros's case by crit fire blast! :D] means that your job is more or less down to coming in safely with it (ground immunity helps a ton here), and weakening Chansey, and being prepared to deal with Zapdos [Jolteon is a great partner for obvious reasons, Golem/Rhydon not as much but they can work, just about, too].
     
  6. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    I don't remember what I said on PP, but I feel like Kingler's susceptibility to para and just generally bad special limit it to lategame which kinda sucks. I mean GolDon have a much better time midgame because Twave immunity and STAB EQ offers more power off the bat.

    Electrics definitely have midgame presence, more than Tauros arguably, however I can't help but feel like Jolt is still a lesser threat. Zap's bulk and power (don't know if the latter's that significant) are great, being able to use Drill Peck rather than PMissile/Dkick is great, but idk if that's enough to justify the discrepancy in how I perceive them. I guess the main issue I have with Jolt if you're walling Zap, that means taking para, and I think if they're both para'd Zap functions much better. Similar deal with aquatics, if they're not paralysing Jolt, they're spamming STAB Blizzard, which chews through it fairly quickly.

    But yeah, Jolt's still great, definitely needs to be in B.

    To me the difference between Zam and Starmie is that Zam is a more consistent direct threat- it can beat almost anything. Starmie plays for the freeze vs Chansey or it Twaves and then facilitates Lax beating the crap out of para'd Chansey. Zam has more options vs. Chansey- it's better at forcing Softboileds and hence better at securing a clean switch for Lax (or GolDon), or can force it to make predictable switches into something else by spamming Psychic until Spec drops accumulate. To me this outweighs Star's ability to freeze. I guess Star is better lategame tho, by virtue of being able to stand up to Tauros without gimping its set (since Zam has to drop SToss to run Reflect). Starmie's still great tho. Also I agree with Star being a mediocre lead, there's way too much Jynx flying around, definitely much better outside the lead spot.

    Also I have literally no idea with Moltres. It's not something I've considered using. I guess random stuff with Counter would make for good teammates as well? Since that's the best bet for baiting EQs.
     
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  7. marcoasd

    marcoasd Well-Known Member

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    Jolteon does different things mid-game against Chansey and other mons: para'd Jolteon is faster than any other para'd mon. Jolteon or Zapdos depends on your build, and again, Jolteon is a great lead too. Zapdos has more raw power, but in this metagame Jolteon improved its position.
    You may still consider Zapdos being better than Jolteon, but to me, Jolteon is way better than any other B ranked hence I'd put it in A- rank as well.

    Starmie TWaves Chansey (my favourite set atm is Psychic/Thunderbolt/Thunder Wave/Recover) and baits it better than anyone else. Exeggutor is not that threatening, and the opponent has to figure if you have Blizzard or not. Its bulk is very important, and it checks these RestLax variants (at least, if Lax has Thunderbolt+Amnesia, it won't have Rest that often): no Hyper Beam no party.

    As a lead, it should run a new (risky) set: Psychic/Seismic Toss/Thunderbolt, Hydro Pump/Surf, Thunder Wave, Recover.
    Basically, no more Blizzard (and Seismic Toss kinda makes up for it against Exeggutor, if the opponent figures out it lacks Blizzard): most needed moves are the ones for Jynx and Alakazam: Hydro Pump screws both. Gengar switches out as it hates Thunder Wave.

    Moltres needs paralysis support especially against Starmie and Alakazam. It pairs well with Gengar, but if the team is lacking a normal resistor, CounterLax can work.

    Forgot to say that Snorlax is arguabily number 1 (only mon I can't drop). Chansey looks like fourth now.
     
  8. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Badged Deucer

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    Snorlax is the mon I find most easy to drop but i guess it's different philosophies and reading your viewpoints I might change how i build perhaps. Starmie doesn't get Seismic Toss btw.

    Quite what are you even proposing with Starmie?
     
  9. marcoasd

    marcoasd Well-Known Member

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    You're definitely right, I don't know where I found that Starmie learns Seismic Toss. As a lead, it needs a moveset that hits Jynx, Alakazam and Gengar at this time, so Psychic, Thunder Wave and Recover with Surf of Thunderbolt as 4th. And it's not that good.

    Snorlax is not easy to drop at all for how it goes easily 2 for 1, or 1 for 1 at very least- and it can't be 2HKO'd.
    Being able to face Tauros, Zapdos, Starmie, Lapras, Alakazam, Slowbro and having a great MU against Chansey makes it an auto inclusion for every single team.
     
  10. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    I've always found Lax "easy" to drop because GolDon cover a lot of the same stuff Lax does (Scaring out Chansey and weakening opposing walls). Trouble with that is that GolDon are just that much worse than Lax. They are a lot more difficult to use because of their weaknesses, and don't possess Lax's ability to beat up literally anything in the meta. And what benefits are there for choosing GolDon over Lax? Anti-electric coverage and immunity to Twave? That's simply not worth forgoing a mon with not-bad matchups against everything, that is much easier to use.

    For me the difference between GolDon and Lax was highlighted in the worst possible way in my powc match against DS- I was too used to running Lax, so I played my Rhydon really aggressively and ended up eating IBs to the face, which lead to everything kinda imploding from there.

    At this point virtually any deviation from Egg/Chans/Lax/Taur is difficult to justify. Dropping Egg means relying on Sing or something as backup sleep. The 3 normals are a combination of being fantastic glue and being so damn good it's hard to justify not using them

    As for Star leads, I've kinda been toying with the idea of Hbeam- crit has about 60% chance of OHKOing Jynx (so roughly 12% overall). Even if you don't crit, that's still a good 50%. Haven't really done much testing of it though
     
  11. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Badged Deucer

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    Chansey's more droppable than you might thing though.. anyway here's when you drop each of the 4 mons:
    Tauros - you're using Slowbro instead of it, or you're running a really heavily defensive team (reflect lax, raish chansey, leech egg, rest lappy, etc etc)
    Lax - you're using GolDon over it and need the other slots for heavy para/anti-tauros support (a really good ice resist is mandatory with goldon, such as starmie, lappy, slowbro)
    Chansey - the team is so aggressive and has decent amounts of waters/electrics/psychics instead, zam, mie, and jolt are great choices when not running chans.
    Exeggutor - pretty much the only reason is you have a different non-lead sleeper (vic comes to mind, but gar could too I guess - marco I think you have that 2 water 2 electric 2 normal team you were running and it must have sing lappy?). The ground resist is a little less important in this meta since rocks are so mediocre, so the cost of running vic isn't as high.

    I have a variety of teams and can find at least one that has dropped one or possibly more of these big 4, but there's very specific reasons for each to be done, and you usually can't drop more than one of these, nor should you. Bizarrely I reckon Egg is actually the one that people drop the least!
     
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  12. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    js I've run teams where I dropped all 4 of them lol. Not in the current meta, but still. Star/Gol/Zam/Cloy/Bel/either Jolteon or Gengar was the specific lineup. So I mean it's definitely possible to drop them, it's just these days it really feels like I'm just trying really hard to make a non-standard team if I do, rather than making a good team. There's definitely advantages for why you might drop them, like Zam>Chans is a much more aggressive special sponge, and hence better at spreading para imo. It's just that more and more I feel it's not really worth it lol. Also I've dropped Tauros for Zap in the past, it lets you fit a Water type onto the team without forgoing Egg/Lax/Chans
     
  13. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Badged Deucer

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    yeah there's diff approaches, but rn i feel like 'standard' has branched out more; there's more than one standard build perhaps - heck this is even more than just permutations of a single build tbh.
    like what i was saying recently w/ marco and alexander was Jolt/Zam/Tauros/Lax/Egg or Sing Lappy/Zapdos or Mie with zam/jolt interchangeable. If you're going full aggression it's something akin to that that you head towards, and on those sorts of teams, chansey is a bad shout, since it drops momentum, doesn't threaten opposing chanseys and lets them heal themselves up. With these sorts of teams it's really important that chansey always feels threatened so that almost any damage on it stays, and that it really takes a beating if it stays in too long (e.g. against zam). Sing HB Lapras is really nice on these builds to clutch vs chansey too.
    anyway, jolt to B at least, moltres to D, maybe consider discussing dropping one/both rocks a rank, tauros just shits on them now. even with double electric around as more than just a counterstyling option, they're really mediocre.
     
  14. marcoasd

    marcoasd Well-Known Member

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    Atm, I think Chansey is the easiest to drop too.

    Tauros is difficult to drop (it's THE revenge killer), but having a bunch of mixed sweepers like Zapdos/Jolteon, specialists with Hyper Beam, Psychic users and no Chansey makes it possible. I'm not a big fan of stall teams.

    Exeggutor is tough to drop too as there are many roles that need to be filled: sleeper, GolDon counter, and Exploder. It would take at least two pieces, like Gengar+Starmie to fill up.
    Nonetheless, with less grounds around, its "mediocre" physical bulk+Ice weakness+Drill Peck weakness got exposed.

    Snorlax is just too good, as it is the only one who can switch into Chansey with no worries for what it's going to use. And Chansey will allways be common. Alakazam is the next thing, but it's not as pressuring.
     
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  15. Jørgen

    Jørgen Sniper

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    This is a solid RBY ranking list. In case anyone still had gripes about where things are ranked (e.g., Jolteon, who's frankly quite a bit worse than Zapdos), I feel that it doesn't really need to be changed.
     
  16. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Badged Deucer

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    really depends on how you see the meta but marco and I see jolteon as better than gar/golem so what do
     
  17. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    I think these changes are long overdue, Jynx is a lot more debatable, but electrics need to rise and Cloy drop.

    Regarding Jolteon, there's no doubt that it's less potent offensively than Zap, but its still a big threat while its typing means it is a much better aquatic check while being a full counter to Zap. These traits means there's good reason for why you might choose it rather than Zap. Also it's def better than GolDon and stuff.

    Interesting topic: After Crystal's discoveries GolDon plummeted in popularity. To what extent have they actually gotten worse versus how much were they overrated before that?
     
  18. Lutra

    Lutra All Gen Battler/Scripter

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    I don't think GolDon (at least not Golem that I used) was overrated. I think it was a good fit in a jack of all trade teams in certain metagames of past, e.g. when I did well in 2013. Metagames with more manoeuvrability probably suited them, consisting of players either with less strategic accuracy or more defensive mindedness, as well as those of the old mechanics tier environment. You could see how much GolDon strengthened with those Body Slam paras or twaves in the past. The very fact you can sometimes throw in Chansey against Golem now, not fearing Body Slam, demonstrates the importance of the mechanic change.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2015
  19. marcoasd

    marcoasd Well-Known Member

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    I think they were a little bit overrated in the past, and what I never liked about Rhydon is that it can't even switch into Snorlax's Body Slams safely.
    Nowdays, they would be played a lot more if we were allowed to play with 7 monsters, or at least with sleeping moves banned: it's just that you can't cover all the threats easily, considering that unpara'd Chansey is now threatening or at least can't be pressured as easily midgame.

    I think we would have an healthier metagame banning Ice Beam on Chansey (kinda letting Rhydon take some credit for those 100+HP subs) and avoiding the same old freeze war bullshit. But it's something I can't ask for, of course.
     
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  20. GGFan3

    GGFan3 Banned

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    Tangela shouldn't even be ranked: other Pokemon are better at utilizing double powder, Growth, and Wrap (not to mention that Tangela has to rely on the less accurate Bind to do so). Other Pokemon, such as Wigglytuff, Lickitung, Poliwrath, Kangaskhan, etc, should be ranked instead of Tangela.

    I disagree that Chansey is the most replaceable of the S-rank Pokemon. Without Chansey, your team becomes far more susceptible to pretty much every Water-typed OU and Zapdos. Furthermore, Chansey’s immunity to Body Slam paralysis made it even better against Snorlax, Tauros, and GolDon. I would say Exeggutor is the most replaceable S-ranked Pokemon because Chansey walls too many threatening foes, Snorlax is as powerful as it is versatile, and Tauros is Tauros. Other Pokemon can inflict sleep and paralysis if you need them to, and Explosion will often come down to mind games and dumb luck against good players.

    Kingler at C is definitely too high. Kingler is a fun novelty Pokemon that can be successful once in a while depending on the endgame situation, but he needs luck to excel and can’t OHKO bulky Pokemon like Lapras and Slowbro even after three Swords Dances. In OU I would put him in the same category as Sandslash.
     
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  21. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Badged Deucer

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    I think Kingler in C or whatever it is is fine but then again idc about these rankings (lol and why do you?) and tang's niche is a partial trapper that resists ground. Yeah it sucks though. Good points about Chans/Egg
     
  22. GGFan3

    GGFan3 Banned

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    Yeah, these rankings are weird. Nonetheless, I thought I would share my thoughts on them.
     
  23. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    Kangaskhan and maybe Poliwrath/Lickitung I can agree with, but Wigglytuff? Wigglytuff is straight garbage. Tangela's bad, but it's not THAT bad; it has a pretty cool movepool, though admittedly one lacking in anything resembling attacks.

    I think Tauros and Chansey are definitely #1 and #2 now.

    Kingler's not great, but it's significantly better than Sandslash. Sandslash is a non-threat unboosted, while Kingler has Crabhammer. And Hyper Beam is just as powerful as STAB Earthquake, so Kingler actually does more damage to anything besides Gengar with its physical attacks too (+2 Kingler Hyper Beam one-shots Jolteon anyway; Rocks obviously die to Crabhammer). Getting loldestroyed by Thunderbolt is bad, but not quite as bad as getting loldestroyed by Blizzard.
     
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  24. GGFan3

    GGFan3 Banned

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    Tangela's terrible Attack and 40 BP Mega Drain prevent it from taking advantage of Swords Dance and Growth. The best thing he can do is double powder, but so many other Pokemon can also inflict dual status and are way better. Tangela seems really out of place in a OU ranking list, especially when better Pokemon are left out.

    Lickitung has enough bulk to take two hits from mostly everything, and becomes stronger than Snorlax after one Swords Dance. And, unlike other Swords Dance sweepers, isn't walled by anything because he can use Earthquake. He's obviously not very good overall, but he's probably the best gimmick Pokemon in the metagame and has something that no other Pokemon can offer.

    Poliwrath has decent physical bulk is one of the very few Pokemon that has access to both Counter and a sleep move. He can switch into Hyper Beams, put the foe to sleep, and then Counter for a practically guaranteed OHKO.

    Wigglytuff is a good Counter user and has a great movepool. When I play OU for fun, I like to use Wigglytuff because of its versatility. Also, like Tangela, it can inflict double status, and its enormous HP somewhat makes up for its awful defenses.

    Hell, I'd rather use Parasect over Tangela in OU. At least he has Spore and better Attack to work with.

    I'd say Sandslash has some significant advantages over Kingler. First, he can switch into paralyzed foes' Thunder Waves and get a free turn to set up. After one Swords Dance, 'Slash easily 2HKOs the majority of the metagame without having to worry about getting paralyzed and the occasional Crabhammer/Hyper Beam miss, and Exeggutor is pretty much the only good OU that can switch into a boosted Earthquake. Everything not named Tauros, Snorlax, and GolDon, on the other hand, can switch into Crabhammer because of Kingler's horrid Special. Sandslash also isn't destroyed by Zapdos, Gengar, and Jolteon, which would certainly come in handy at times.

    Kingler does better against Tauros and Snorlax, which make him better overall, but I don't think the gap between Kingler and Sandslash is as enormous as you make it out to be.
     
  25. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    Tangela is bad, I heartily agree, and it shouldn't be on the list. Growth + Mega Drain isn't a terrible combination, though; boosted Mega Drain (in combination with Tangela's high defenses/low HP setup) gives the recovery needed to get use out of Growth.

    Wigglytuff isn't Countering anything unless it switches into something Counterable, and it doesn't force anything out except maybe Rhydon if it's running BubbleBeam. It has the same Special as Kingler, the same Speed as Golem, and the same Attack as Clefable; it doesn't exactly force plays. Thunder Wave is good, but there are a zillion better things with Thunder Wave (like, y'know, Clefable itself).

    What does Sandslash beat that uses Thunder Wave? Starmie and Chansey can still beat it, as does ReflectZam; Slowbro rarely runs Psychic/Thunder Wave. That leaves you with Toss Zam, Jolteon and sort-of Zapdos as the only targets.

    The accuracy is nice, but why would opponents be switching into a +2 Earthquake? They'd be switching in on the Swords Dance. And there are quite a few that can do that and win (Starmie, Tauros, Lapras, Jynx, Cloyster, Articuno, Dragonite, Victreebel - Egg isn't actually a good Sandslash counter). And if you Swords Dance, you can't hit-and-run for chip damage the way Kingler can with Crabhammer.

    Crabhammer always crits, remember. Alakazam is usually 2HKOed by Crabhammer + Hyper Beam. Jynx always is if they hit. Crabhammer's badly-typed, but it packs a huge wallop (slightly less than Starmie's Hydro Pump). And half the things that can take it lose if they switch into Swords Dance. The list of things that can switch into Kingler's Swords Dance and win (to mirror the above list for Sandslash's Swords Dance) is: Dragonite, Gengar, Jolteon, (Tbolt) Starmie and Zapdos.

    Oh, Kingler isn't strictly better than Sandslash, but it is better. The list of Swords Dancers goes about Mew >> Victreebel > Kingler > Kabutops > Sandslash >> lolgarbage. A lot of it, certainly, is due to Kingler not having Tauros as a full counter, but not all of it (the better ability to hit things unboosted and to brute-force through Chansey/Starmie are also notable).
     
  26. GGFan3

    GGFan3 Banned

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    What would a Growth moveset look like? Growth/Mega Drain/Sleep Powder/Stun Spore? Have fun getting walled by almost everything. Tangela sucks in OU, end of discussion. Moving on.

    Of course Wigglytuff is a good Counter user--just look at that massive HP and horrible Defense. Like Poliwrath, Wigglytuff is also capable of catching a Hyper Beam and either using Counter for the OHKO or Sing. It's not very reliable, but it gives Wigglytuff a niche. Nobody is saying that Wigglytuff is better than Clefable at anything; rather, what I'm saying that is what Wigglytuff deserves to be ranked before Tangela. Its better attack power and far superior movepool make it more conducive to succeeding in OU than Tangela.

    Paralyzed Alakazam can't beat Sandslash unless it already has Reflect up, but Reflect applies to Kingler as much as does it to Sandslash. While 'Slash can't 2HKO Chansey at full health, a little chip damage is all he needs to get the job done. Anyways, I think there was some miscommunication here: my main point is that both Sandslash and Kingler can't beat several Pokemon without getting lucky. Both need paralysis support and fps to power through foes that would otherwise kill them, like Starmie, Lapras, etc. I didn't suggest that a Pokemon would switch into a +2 Earthquake--you use Swords Dance on a paralyzed Pokemon and hope they get fpd. The same applies to Kingler, who loses to similar Pokemon unless he gets lucky; for example, even against a paralyzed Jolteon, Jolteon needs to be fpd in order for Kingler to win (Thunderbolt is a guaranteed OHKO). Sandslash, on the other hand, just has to switch in and Earthquake for the easy kill.

    Crabhamer does take away quite a bit of HP from Alakazam; however, once again, Kingler needs paralysis support to finish off Alakazam by himself. Sandslash would accomplish the same exact thing, except he doesn't have to worry about Thunder Wave.

    I do think Kingler is a little better because he does really well against Tauros and Snorlax, but I would put both in the same tier.

    P.S. I've used Psychic/T-Wave Slowbro in many tournament matches this year and last.
     
  27. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Badged Deucer

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    Actually this is false, using a sleep move resets the sleep counter. However, at least when you switch into the hyper beam your sleep move is 100% accurate.
    Disagree. Not like being 3HKOd by Rhydon is that big of a deal considering 1) it's a lot rarer and 2) it requires a lot of balls to do that play anyway, + w.r.t. being PP stalled, the specdrops alongside the speed-affecting glitches it's much better off than before.

    Also ya tang sucks and kanga should be like a rank above it LOL. Anyway what it does is double powder + mega drain + BIND. It is shit though, but the ground resist is the main thing over vic, and it's just a raw pivot without any real sweeping potential.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2015
  28. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    It's not just that; it's also that having Psychic means TWave isn't an absolute necessity for breaking through Chansey/Starmie and that you don't need it to stop Victreebel from switching in.
     
  29. Cheezywiz2

    Cheezywiz2 New Member

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    Jolteon is clearly better then what you said. Plz stop undermining it. Jolteon is in OU opposed to all the others in C. It is a good alternative to zapdos if you don't want that ice weakness and it is the best alternative.
    Edit: Check smogon tiers. If you think victreebel should be in B. Jolteon should to.
     
    dark scyther likes this.