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Suspect Discussion: Kyurem (Banned)

Discussion in 'Gen 6 LU' started by pokemonnerd, Jul 5, 2014.

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  1. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Same basic opening but I just added something, plus I needed to beat devo to the punch anyway!

    [​IMG]

    Discuss the possibility of banning Kyurem from the XY LU metagame.

    Post intelligently based off of experience in the tier. Posts based off theorymon risk forum infractions.

    Attempt to find the checks and counters (or lack thereof) for Kyurem as well as its impact and power in the metagame. Do not simply say "it's broken" or "it's not broken". Back up your arguments on why you think it should be banned or not.

    Most importantly, elaborate on your points and try to think of counter arguments as you're posting. No one or two sentence posts will be allowed, and this will be strictly enforced.

    If a consensus is reached, the result will likely be implemented in the metagame.

    I'll probably make another post addressing some issues later.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 5, 2014
  2. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    Kyurem has very few counters. Very very very few. As far as i know the only thing in the tier the can actually function as a fool proof counter is av slowking with 252 hp/ 252 spcD modest. It takes a max of 52% from specs draco but can recover with regenerator and always breaks kyurem's subs with psyshock. And even then band can ohko it
    252+ Atk Choice Band Kyurem Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 388-457 (98.4 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

    As far as i know kyurem always has some sort of way to beat any relevant checks in the tier, 2hkoing almost everything even with resisted hits
    Bronzong:
    • 252+ Atk Choice Band Kyurem Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bronzong: 142-168 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    • Subroost Kyurem can also beat zong always. 4 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (76 BP) vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 164-194 (40.8 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    Slowking:
    • 252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 214-253 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • 0 spcA slowking with a neutral nature does not always brake SubKyurem's sub and will always lose due to pressure/earth power spcD drops/freezes
    Klefki:
    • 252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Klefki: 362-426 (113.8 - 133.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    • 252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Klefki: 135-159 (42.4 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
    • 252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Klefki: 280-330 (88 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
    Snorlax:
    • 252+ SpA Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 136 HP / 252 SpD Snorlax: 172-204 (34.7 - 41.2%) -- 68.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
      252+ Atk Choice Band Kyurem Outrage vs. 136 HP / 120 Def Snorlax: 388-457 (78.3 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    • 252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 136 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 237-279 (47.8 - 56.3%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    • Assault vest wall most special sets but still gets smashed by band and has no way to regain health and is the hardest mon to wishpass to. 252+ Atk Choice Band Kyurem Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 459-540 (87.5 - 103%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
    Zone:
    • 252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magnezone: 131-155 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
    • 252+ SpA Kyurem Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magnezone: 472-556 (167.9 - 197.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    Escavalier:
    • Can take most hits but is 3hkoed by draco and has no recovery
    • Also ohko after rocks by rare hp fire

    In addition to wall/stallbreaking, Kyurem can still run scarf to threaten anything offense has to throw at it and still fire off powerful draco meteors capable of killing av machamp and av entei with 2 switch ins and ohking Alomomola after rocks.
    Needs the boot!
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2014
  3. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    I think Kyurem just has too many sets it can run way too effectively. Just to find out what set it is you might have to sack something. You could try bringing in Snorlax to it assuming it's Specs just to get hit with a Banded Outrage and get OHKOed after rocks or you could bring in Alomomola expected Banded to get OHKOed by Draco, etc. Even something like Bronzong or P2 which are good mixed walls get shit on and stalled out by the SubRoost set. It can even run Scarf to threaten offense, and base 95 Speed is pretty good in this meta. It's just too hard to switch into, I think as PSM said Escavalier is like the only common thing in this tier that can switch into this and not fear getting Pressure stalled by the SubRoost. I'm going to say ban it.
     
  4. Big Bad Booty Daddy

    Big Bad Booty Daddy Big Poppa Pump

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    Kyurem is an insanely powerful Pokemon in LU right now, huge special attack and pretty damn good Speed in the tier right now makes it a serious threat. The Choice Specs set is really powerful, with Draco Meteor doing 50% minimum to Assault Vest Slowking and Max/Max SpD Milotic, two of the bulkiest waters in the tier, although Slowking does have Regenerator and Milotic has recovery in either a viable Rest set or Recover, it just proves the bulk of Kyurem, and if Phys Def Milotic it's a 2hko. Assault Vest Escavalier also has the ability to be able to come in on all of Kyurem's attacks, since it doesn't have the room for Hidden Power Fire and Draco Meteor doesn't do much at all and has to beware of Pursuit.

    SubRoost Kyurem is an incredible set too, thanks to Pressure and the ability to run 405 HP on Kyurem to ensure that Seismic Toss/Night Shade is unable to break substitutes, it's incredibly hard to take down Kyurem once it gets a sub, which isn't a hard thing to accomplish. Resistances to Water / Electric / Grass attacks allow a fairly easy set-up, and just general bulk allows it to set-up on weak attacks, (for instance) a Gligar Earthquake, just to prove the pretty good bulk on 56 / 0 Kyurem, it can take neutral STAB attacks from very bulky Pokemon. Not like Gligar would ever stay in? Unless you don't want to allow a Substitute I guess. But SubRoost does have the ability to stall-out Slowking, Psyshock only does 38% maximum and you would have to rely on Scald burns in order to beat it, and Milotic is worn down due to the inability to break Sub with Dragon Tail / Scald / Ice Beam, its 3 main moves on any set.

    Life Orb mixed or Band are both good sets as well, the usual immediate switch-ins like Milotic or Slowking are hurt badly by Banded or LO Outrage, and Alomomola is 2hko'd by a banded Outrage which just shows the power of a Banded or LO Kyurem. and Choice Scarf is pretty obvious about what it does, I think it's the worst set so I'm not going to mention it but yeah, I've been rambling on for a while so I should probably stop. With all of this combined, I think the inability to effectively wall Kyurem and the low amount of Pokemon that can commonly take some of the sets on make it broken~

    ban torn-t and krook now
    this is a pretty bad post since i did this in like 10 mins tops since i had to go out but w.e,,,
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2014
  5. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    What kind of absurdly terrible Alomomola EV spread are you guys using that gets OHKOed by Specs Draco Meteor? I've used stall, and my initial switch into Kyurem is always Alomomola, because absolutely nothing it can use has any chance of killing. Oh yeah it does a fuck load, but with Regen + Klefki I have no real problem dealing with Specs Kyurem, specially after figuring out its set. The same guy who posted a bunch of calcs in this thread failed to break my team twice with Specs Kyurem, so is not like I'm just making shit up.

    Also, Kyurem has 3 good sets (LO, CB, Specs). Exactly how is that "too many sets"? The Choice Band set is not even common and it's the kind of set that only works once in a match, and half of the Pokemon that can deal with Specs can play around LO sets.

    The LO set is the most dangerous one, because it's way more versatile because it has the ability to change moves. It can also run Roost or Sub if necessary. This set is a complete dick to balance and offensive teams, the latter assuming it gets a free sub , but the it lacks the raw power to break through solid stall teams by itself, obviously if you good support things change but the same applies to every important threat. Sub Roost stall is overrated as fuck, yeah it beats Bronzong 1v1, but does that really matter when Bronzong can setup Rocks, switch out to something like Alomomola / Vaporeon and start Wish passing? doing small amount of damage while your opponent does his thing is not winning. Speaking of Vaporeon, it can use Roar to force it out. Milotic and Porygon 2, which the sub set "beats", take virtually no damage from the Sub set and can keep themselves healthy while stalling Kyurem. Additionally you can run Dragon Pulse Milotic to damage Kyurem, some people did that in Gen 5. CM Slowking uses it as setup fodder. etc.

    Specs hits like a truck, but it doesn't have a long life span. Additionally playing around it is possible with fairies, Regen Pokemon, Steel types or simply strong offensive presence. Unless you have perfect prediction skills, full hazards in the opponent field, no hazards in yours (I wanna know how you manage to do this reliably while removing your opp's hazards) and a extremely favorable matchup, it won't be unmanagable.

    CB basically has two ways of working. The first one is hit the incoming special wall / special Kyurem check / death fodder hard and then get revenge killed. The second is get walled / killed. Worst set it has, only useful to get a surprise kill or to beat up subpar teams. Relying on Outrage with Kyurem's terrible typing is not good.

    Kyurem is good, maybe too good, but it isn't half as "broken" as you are implying it is. It still is a Pokemon with a shitty typing and a bunch of ways of playing around it or straight up walling anything it can throw. Stop assuming perfect conditions for the Kyurem user, and stop implying that the opponent runs absolutely no team support ("You 2HKO the Regen wall with Kyurem, because the wall obviously can't switch out and be healthy to do the same later on. Is not like things with Regenerator are incredibly easy to keep healthy by double switching and significantly harder to wear down than a Pokemon with a shitty typing").
     
  6. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    Dont know exactly what ev spreed you were running on alomomola but even with 252/204 Calm specs Rem can still ko after rocks
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Alomomola: 424-501 (79.4 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    Also running so much spcD limits alomomola's ability to handle physical attackers like machamp, entei, and krook (which is its main role). I would argue that the fact that you need to run a very specific core like that just to handle kyurem just shows thats its a very prominent threat that must always be taken into account when teambuilding. That core also very heavily relies on protect to scout kyurem's earth power and will also lose to sub or life orb kyurem.
    (Assuming you run max spcD calm)
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Klefki: 254-300 (79.8 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
     
  7. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    #1 That's another shitty EV spread, Alomola doesn't need to run max HP. Even then Modest Kyurem doesn't kill it.

    #2 Modest Kyurem is slower than a huge amount of important threats, including other Kyurem, Flare Blitz Entei and Hitmonlee. Hitting slightly harder isn't worth the speed you are losing.

    #3 Entei and Krook do nothing to Alomomola even if it runs special bulk. Machamp doesn't kill it either but of course it won't enjoy tanking too many Dynamic Punch, but Alomomola is a shitty Machamp switch in regardless. And again speaking about your team with Specs Kyurem, you also run Machamp and yet you haven't been able to beat my stall; Kyurem isn't the only Pokemon that runs team support.

    #4 LO Kyurem gets outright stalled by Mola, and sub Kyurem is just going to waste time doing nothing while I wish pass and setup hazards. Just because I can't kill it behind a sub with Alomola doesn't meant it actually wins that matchup; that's as silly as saying Blissey loses to Sub Pain Split Gengar because it cannot kill it behind a sub.

    #5 How is relying on Protect bad exactly? It allows me to deal with Specs Kyurem with absolutely no issue, helps with other Pokemon (specially choice Pokemon), and allows me to get Leftovers recovery. "Kyurem heavily relies on Draco Meteor to do damage, therefore bad", does that make sense? because that's pretty much what you are doing.

    #6 Bulky water + Steel type isn't a very specific core for Kyurem, that's just basic teambuilding that exist since before Kyurem was even a thing and it universally exist in most tiers (I even used Vaporeon + Registeel in the Tiers tours and coincidentially my opponent brought Sub Kyurem. Spoiler: It didn't break Vap + Registeel). Alomomola is a bulky water with Wish, that beats a huge amount of common threats and allows me to beat Rain teams without issue, and Kelfki is a steel type with a lot of userful resistances, that allow me to check things like dragons and Tornadus-T, and Spikes. That specific core argument is complete bullshit you are using to make Kyu sound worse than what it is.
     
  8. Big Bad Booty Daddy

    Big Bad Booty Daddy Big Poppa Pump

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    I've played my fair share of games with Stall and I've noticed that Alomomola is able to take on Krookodile / Entei / Machamp without a lot of Defense, my EV Spread is... EVs: 104 HP / 180 Def / 224+ SDef. If you don't have anything to take an Earthquake besides an Alomomola then odds are it's not a great team, you could have all the Defense in the world but Alomomola will eventually grow tired of taking Earthquakes alongside taking other attacks since it's not like the game is 6 vs. 1. Machamp and Entei still can't break this spread, Machamp has to rely on Confusion anyways, if it beats this Machamp with confusion then it'll be beating a 252/252+ Alomomola with confusion either way. It's the luck game, although you should probably have a secondary answer to a Machamp if you do have a standard WishTect Alomomola on your team, which usually signals a very bulky team.

    Specially Defensive Mola spreads like this should probably become a lot more common since Specs / RD Kingdra is a huge threat in the tier. (You don't beat SubDD even with Max Defense rip) but Kyurem really does need Modest, it's basically a stallbreaker regardless of the Modest or Timid nature, but you lose out on Jolly Hitmonlee / Standard Entei / Jolly Toxicroak / Uncommon CB Flygon and Modest Life Orb Celebi (Mostly +Speed natures anyways / Offensive Meloetta before a Relic Song / No Scarf Krookodile / Moltres / Porygon-Z. Being outpaced by all of these is a big deal in LU, esp. since the tier favors a balanced offense build, these are threats you usually want to outpace. The risk of killing one thing like Alomomola probably doesn't outweigh the inability to OHKO all the Pokemon I just mentioned.

    I still think Kyurem is broken but I mean if you're running an Alomomola in a metagame with Kyurem running around then you should probably prep for it.

    252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 104 HP / 224+ SpD Alomomola: 375-442 (75.4 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 104 HP / 224+ SpD Alomomola: 412-486 (82.8 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 104 HP / 180 Def Alomomola: 120-142 (24.1 - 28.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

    252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. 104 HP / 180 Def Alomomola: 150-177 (30.1 - 35.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 104 HP / 224+ SpD Alomomola: 331-391 (66.5 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2014
  9. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Ok I guess I should post a bit on my thoughts about Kyurem. Sadly, BR took every single point I was going to make, but I need to put my own words here.

    Kyurem is an offensive power house in the tier. It has 130 base attack, special attack, and a 95 base speed. It makes for a wonderful wallbreaker, which is what it is designed to do with attacking sets. It makes for a good pressure sub staller with 125 base HP and respectable 90 defenses thanks to its Dragon typing, though Ice typing holds back the true potential of its walling potential.

    Now onto sets. Life Orb, as Hikari stated is the best set it can run because of how versatile it is. Sub Roost with a combination of Dragon Pulse, Ice Beam, or Earth Power behind a sub allows for it do deal a wide range of damage to moderately bulky pokemon in the tier from behind a substitute with Roost healing off any damage. Life Orb also has the power to run Focus Blast and Draco Meteor forgoing the SubRoost set in order to deal more damage but come with a big drawback of a drop of special attack or relying on poor accuracy.

    Choice Specs is probably the most dangerous straightforward set that Kyurem can have. The equivalent of a +1 special attack with Ice Beam, Earth Power, or Draco Meteor lacks almost any checks or counters. The drawback to this set is that it relies on Draco Meteor for most of it's attacking which will force repeated switch outs because of the -2 nature of the attack. Without any way to recovery health or deal damage after the attack, and stealth rocks being highly prevalent, as well as having a bulky special wall to recover/rest/tank the damage done, it limits the amount of switch ins Kyurem has, since it's pretty easy to wear down and kill with how bad ice typing is defensively.

    Choice Band is good because of the fact it has 130 base attack, but it's highly dependent on 3 things. First off is that Outrage is it's only attacking move it'll use. While you might net a kill, you are now locked into Outrage which allows for Kyurem to be potentially revenged easily, which means you just lost a wallbreaker, and a very good one. The second is that your only other attack that you'd be doing any good damage on is either Dragon Claw to not get locked into a 2-3 turn move, and Iron Head to actually hit fairies. The third thing, is it is all surprise factor. Once that is gone, you've don't really have much else going for this set. There are walls that can perform well tanking both special sets and a banded outrage allowing to switch out and potentially come back in to recover damage.

    Choice Scarf, going to keep this short, basically a less powerful set, made for being a clean up type sweeper. It's good situationally, but it's not going to sweep teams by itself, and is made for the late game. Requires a good amount of team support in terms of offense or hazards to wear down opponents into sweeping range.

    Pokemon that can check/counter Kyurem from my experience in some form:

    - Aromatisse (special kyurem can't touch this, and relies on Iron Head to bash it in)
    - Porygon2 (Special isn't going to break, and is at liability to be paralyzed by thunder wave. Tracing Pressure also means you have a wall that speeds up PP stall on offensive teams.)
    - Milotic, Vaporeon, Alomomla, Jellicent (Wish/Recover special walls that Draco Meteor will do a fair amount to, but the -2 drawback allows for mostly safe recovery.)
    - Bronzong (resists all the main attacks Kyurem will use, requires sub roost to stall it out.)
    - Snorlax and Slowking (One is a top tier special wall with access to rest and set up moves that makes it less likely to mind actually needing rest. The other is an assvest user with a way to heal off damage upon switching, making eating a Draco Meteor fairly easy to go about doing. Running a non assvest Sp.Def invested Slowking means it can slack off too, with Draco only doing so much after the -2. Thus, you are relying on damage rolls then.)
    - Registeel (This thing is going to tank the STAB moves, but isn't even 2HKO'd by timid Specs EP after lefties recovery.)
    - Klefki (Not going to be tanking many Earth Powers, but good for switching into Dragon + Ice moves and potentially crippling with Thunder-Wave thanks to prankster.)
    - Escavalier (Assvest allows it to tank any moves that Kyurem may run and forces a switch. Giving Escavalier a free turn to use either Megahorn, Knock Off, Drill Run, or Iron Head is kind of a bad thing, against a lot of the tier because of the power this one has anyway.)

    These are just things I have used on a defensive front. There's more pokemon that have fallen to XY NU right now that probably can be used in a similar role though not as good or more of a niche type pokemon. Kyurem is an insane good pokemon because of the dangers of it's Life Orb set and pure power from specs to most balanced or offensive oriented teams. However, it is highly dependent on running a Speed nature so you can't really give full credit to it's power under Modest or Adamant natures, otherwise there is an entire speed tier that can outspeed it and threaten it. Kyurem's fear of Rocks and other hazards also contribute to the fact all the defensive type checks that have been brought up mean that it's limited in any set that isn't Roost based to keep it's health up, otherwise it's liable to be PP stalled from wish/protect/recovery/rest support or just be powered out.

    In my opinion, Kyurem is extremely good, but i haven't been convinced it's entirely broken if you can account for it like any good team should. Lacking the ability to survive many switch ins means you have to be conservative in it's use. If a team is more balanced without a way to properly handle Kyurem, then they didn't take into account one of the best pokemon in the tier, much like if you don't prepare for SubCM Raikou, have a way to take out the bulky fighter Machamp, or deal with Entei. It's one of those things you need to consider while building a team and have the appropriate type of pokemon for it. 3 of it's sets talked about focus on a choice item which with it's coverage moves means needing strong predictions with it's STAB moves not being entirely spammable due to common resists in the tier. Extremely top tier pokemon, but I don't find it broken yet as of all the argument.

    You guys still have time to convince me on this one, but I did this with like a total of 3 hours of sleep so if it's incoherent or choppy, please forgive that.
     
  10. Gol D. Roger

    Gol D. Roger Key to Progression

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    I play LU only occasionally, but I do know that you would be nuts to let Kyurem stay in the tier. LO Subroost really sticks in the sides of any slow pokemon trying to beat it, as well as people who would toxic/willowisp kyurem to try and get in chip damage, and on top of that LO ice beams alone severely hurt a large portion of the tier. Add in viable band and specs wallbreaker sets and a wonderful set of STABs... I just don't see Kyurem being healthy in the tier. It's a very underrated, very powerful pokemon. HOWEVER there are pokemon who can handle it, such as max HP shift gear klinklang, which can come in on resisted scarf, specs, or band moves, particularly banded outrage, and set up a shift gear. Klinklang also has the ability to gear grind right through Kyurem's substitutes, killing subroost sets with little issue so long as they don't run earth power (the few I've seen haven't run this move.) However, aside from Klinklang and Eviolite Klang, I'm fairly hard pressed to think of a pokemon that can reliably beat most if not all Kyurem sets aside from MAYBE av escavalier... but there's always hidden power fire. Ban.

    Edit: You should all be using Klinklang more, by the way.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2014
  11. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    Unless you're running max spcD on aromatisse (most common set is max def) timid specs kyurem 2hkos easy
    252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aromatisse: 244-288 (60 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Most of the specially bulky pokes in the list above can be almost killed by draco. Stuff that can sort of take dracometeors like porygon2/vape/Milotic/Jellicent get completely walled by the subKyurem set.
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 364-430 (78.4 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 174-205 (46.5 - 54.8%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 132 HP / 252 SpD Milotic: 237-279 (65.1 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jellicent: 244-288 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 88+ SpD Jellicent: 280-331 (69.4 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    0- Atk Milotic Dragon Tail vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 56-68 (13.8 - 16.7%) -- possible 6HKO
    4 SpA Jellicent Shadow Ball vs. 56 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem: 84-99 (20.7 - 24.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
    4 SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 56 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem: 99-117 (24.4 - 28.8%) -- 99.1% chance to 4HKO (Breaks sub most of the time but will still lose due to tri attack under pressure only having 8 uses)

    Registeel also gets crushed by subKyurem unless it runs very uncommon iron head over seismic toss. It is also 2hkoed by modest specs earthpower
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 176-208 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    The spread that ßasedVictory suggested for Alomomola gets ohkoed easy after rocks
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 104 HP / 224+ SpD Alomomola: 412-486 (82.8 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. Also how is walling Alomomola with SubKyurem not winning the matchup? Either he stays in and gets easily stalled with sub/roost/pressure/earthpower spcD drops or he switches out and gives kyurem a free sub.

    Slowking even with max spcD struggles to switch into specs dracometeors, not even getting a chance to recover. In adition if slowking runs no spcA or +spcA nature it fails to break sub kyurem's subs, therefore getting easily beaten
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 237-279 (60.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    AV Slowking takes a min of about 50% from timid specsdraco making it a very shaky check
    252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 195-231 (49.4 - 58.6%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 214-253 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    While yes, there are work arounds for its attacks, there is no mon in the tier that can actually claim to handle all its sets bar Escavalier. It often can run modest becuase it only needs to hit 280 (or 284 for nutral Krook) to outspeed neutral base 90s and functions as a bulky wallbeaker so it will naturally outspeed all of lu's slow walls. Kyurem's bulk and great stabs essentially force people to run lots of checks to its stabs in order to handle it, and while there are defiantly ways to check/revenge/play around it in the lu meta, its presence has a very negative influence in the tier.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2014
  12. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    If we're banning pokemon due to no one pokemon being able to counter any given set another pokemon can run half the tier would be banned and that's pretty much all I have to say about y0's post.

    I mean even assault vest slowking still isn't used to counter specs users, you use leftovers Slowking for that. Especially since it's really quite the bad AV user, only good because it has Regen and has no other features like repeatedly switching into Raikou or a well played Azelf repeatedly. It's used for specific threats and specs Kyurem simply isn't one of them. You're also ignoring that AV Slowking really has a place on more offensive based teams that like a pivot; a -2 specs Draco meteor is very easy to capitalize on and slowking still comes out with at least 60% minimum health.

    Slowking in and of itself isn't and never was used to check strong special attacks in general, it's just an amazing mixed wall and when your team truly and actually needs the AV set it's there for mildly specific threats.

    Just wanted to get that out of the way since Snorlax and Goodra are basically the premier special tanks and walls this generation. Obviously Goodra doesn't match to Kyurem but snorlax is another beast.

    I just really don't see what the huge deal about wall breakers are this gen. Yes, Kyurem is an amazing pokemon and it's something that's on the edge for me (unlike Tornadus-T) but ultimately I'm really not 100% sold on banning it when it needs SR off the field and its only limited to special sets. The physical ones are literally 1 time surprise sets that are laughably easy to counter and even easier to check.

    Most people who have actually approached me and are pro ban (@Hikari and cased, fuck your forum name) have given me good reasons for banning it but otherwise everyone else boils down to "it hits hard and has good attack stats on both sides, ban pls."

    And to reiterate band is not fucking viable so everyone should stop pretending it is. It literally only works once and becomes essentially worthless if it doesn't get that surprise kill. And after the surprise kill it then becomes worthless. It simply doesn't have the move pool to be useful outside of catching a special wall with Outrage.

    And otherwise I'm honestly quite torn with it, but at the least it is not as broken as some people are trying to portray it as.
     
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  13. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    All i have to say about @pokemonnerd post is that what he seeming to prove is
    1) One of the best answers to Kyurem in the tier in Slowking is not that good of an answer and would much rather run a physically def set that would get smashed in the kyurem/kingdra meta
    2) The best special wall in the tier in goodra cant come close to checking kyurem so we go to snorlax
    3) Snorlax is a decent answer to kyurem as long as its above 70% otherwise its geting 2hkoed just like the rest of em

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 144 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 237-279 (47.6 - 56.1%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    The second one is doing about 25% meaning you need to be at above 70% to come in on kyurem with lax. Assuming you are at enough health to live, snorlax needs to rest in order to switch into another over the course of the match. Guys, sure its not a simple as click draco and win. But look at the calcs, look at how it can beat or cripple most of its checks in some way, look at how much of the tier it can ohko. What I dont see is a reason for Kyurem to stay in lu.

    *I fail to see how lefties slowbro is used to counter kyurem when 252/252+ taking almost 70% from dracos. Like i guess you could just keep switching, but now that means you have 2 switchins for dracos and you give the kyurem user the opportunity to switch as well so...OR you could guess wrong and its subrem in which case you gave them a free sub and you need to switch out or get stalled until you die.
     
  14. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    You completely misunderstood what I was saying in that post.

    Reread my part about slowking walking away from a specs Draco with at least 60% after Regen because you're extremely easy to switch into at -2. Because if you are using Slowking to sponge draco meteors from anything then you're going to use max special defense and not the mixed walling set.

    And since spinning isn't a guarantee in this tier your specs Kyurem is probably sitting at 50% the next time it tries to break through a wall in your team and that's not factoring in possibly getting paralyzed or poisoned along the way. Or just hit by something faster, especially if you're using modest.

    Stop purely looking at damage calcs for a few minutes and try to realize that after the initial hit Specs simply isn't that great when you spam meteor all the time. Defensively geared teams have things to sponge the initial meteor while offensive teams can capitalize on it being slow, with "balance" having the capacity to do both especially against modest Kyurem.

    If anything you should be trying to argue about how the LO and Sub sets are what really break Kyurem, because they're the ones that potentially do.
     
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  15. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    So by double switching in this scenario you've done three things:
    1) Given Kyurem a switch out if it wants to get rid of its -2
    2) Made Slowking unable to switch into any more dracos even if its sitting at 60% (DracoM does a min of 61%)
    3) Guessed/prayed that its not sub kyurem in which case he'd get a sub and you would have to switch.

    If you did decide to stay in and rocks are on the field you can get 2hkoed by draco meteor btw

    If rocks are in play on both sides you will have about 50% if you come in again [100-12+6-65+33-12=50] meaning you die to the second one easily. And after all of this, the most you can hope has happened to the kyurem user is that he has taken rocks damage. This is supposed to be the slowking that "checks" Kyurem.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2014
  16. Proof

    Proof Well-Known Member

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    Quoting myself from an earlier post right before the tier changes:

    I think we should get a Kyurem suspect going. Kyurem has a monstrous offensive stats-- primarily its special attack. Although Kyurem has 130 offensive stats, its special attack is more worth focusing on due to its baron physical movepool. With arguably the best offensive typing in the game, Kyurem is left unwalled by nearly all of the tier. Ice beam + Draco Meteor neuters everything disregarding steel types, and Kyurem is granted with focus blast, earth power, and hidden power fire to hit every steel type in LU for super-effective damage depending on which moves it chooses. Kyurem's decent base 95 speed is usable to outspeed a large chunk of LU's hardest hitters-- such as krookodile, and allows it to speed tie with threats such as houndoom before mega evolving. Its bulk isn't disappointing, either, Kyurem rarely dies to a neutral hit, and can still hit like a truck. Fantastic Base 125 HP and decent 90 defenses allow Kyurem to not only sustain hits, but retaliate with twice the power. Kyurem also has a note-worthy base 130 attack, on par with its special attack, however its movepool consists only of outrage and iron head. Kyurem also has quite a few flaws. For one thing, its typing is so-so defensively, leaving it with 3 resistances, 5 weaknesses, and neutrality to all other types. It's also susceptible to every form of hazards, and weak to stealth rocks. Finally, although base 95 speed is good in LU, it will still leave Kyurem short of certain threats.

    Kyurem has 3 main sets: subroost, choice scarf, and choice specs. Subroost is particularly scary because it emphasizes on Kyurem's bulk. With a substitute, kyurem can dodge incoming thunder waves and toxics from Slowkings. It also walls pokemon like registeel, who generally only run seismic toss as an offensive move. There are a lot of standard pokemon in LU who can't break Kyurem's substitute-- Gligar, Slowking, Registeel, Raikou, Alomomola, Cofagrigus, Tentacruel, Tangrowth, Politoed, Xatu, Porygon2, and Amoonguss all are unable to hit Kyurem behind a substitute, and leave it to wreak havoc on teams. This set particularly gives stall some massive problems, as they're left unable to break its substitute. It's also the only set that abuses Kyurem's ability, pressure. With a substitute up, Kyurem can whittle down the PP of moves such as fire blast in 4 turns.

    Kyurem can also run a choice item. Choice specs Kyurem is terror for any LU team, stall or offense. Kyurem's Draco Meteor (or ice beam in the case of fairies) is going to dent every single pokemon on a team, regardless of its resistance. Simply put, even special walls are going to have trouble walling Kyurem. It has nice coverage for most steel types, and ice beam and draco meteor should be killing everything else. Even assault vest machamp, one of the most common specially defensive threats in the tier, takes 80% from a specs draco meteor. There are only 5 pokemon in this tier that can be considered checks to Kyurem: Aromatisse, Slowking, Snorlax, Registeel, and Escavalier. Unfortunately, aromatisse is the only one of these pokemon that can reliably recover. Aromatisse generally runs physically defensive, however, if someone runs specially defensive, it takes exactly 50% on average from ice beam, and can't take 2 hits after any form of entry hazards (disregarding sticky web). Slowking only runs assault vest about 50% of the time according to usage, and is what I consider the most reliable check to Kyurem. Draco Meteor does 54-64% to slowking, meaning slowking can always take 2 draco meteors on a hazard-less field. It also has regenerator to pivot out and gain health, however repeated switch-ins to draco meteor will wear down slowking, regardless of regenerator. Slowking also can't damage Kyurem much in return. Snorlax takes 45% from Draco Meteor on average with assault vest, and can't recover. However, specially defensive snorlax only takes around 53% on average from draco meteor, and can use rest to recover. Registeel takes half from earth power, and has no reliable recovery outside of protect, but can status kyurem and take its STABs for days. Escavalier is also a soft check, taking 35% on average from Draco, and not being able to recover. Overall, Specs Kyurem has no counters in RU, and its checks are very limited. Scarf Kyurem is an alternative that still holds wild power, but is significantly weaker than choice specs. It can still outspeed threats like raikou, tornadus-t, and mega houndoom, and, from personal experience, late-game sweeps with ice beam a lot of the time.

    Basically, if you couldn't tell from my post, I believe kyurem should be banned from LU.
     
  17. Xdevo

    Xdevo The bear was upon Tom Tiering Administrator Tour Director Tiering Administrator Tour Director

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    Kyurem is hereby banned from XY LU.

    Between the 4 main sets, there are essentially no counters. While this isn't uncommon among wallbreakers, Kyurem still has the speed (95 is good enough to threaten offensive teams) and the bulk to take some hits. SR weakness and a mediocre typing hinder the latter a bit, but the excellent HP and Dragon typing make up for it. The few things that can switch into Kyurem either cannot switch into it repeatedly or simply pivot with Regenerator. Band is more "gimicky" (it still hits harder than Druddigon), but destroys pretty much every special wall. Specs is near impossible to directly switch into; Sub takes advantage of the extremely low offensive potential of the main Kyurem checks. As a whole, these traits leave Kyurem as too much for LU.
     
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