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Suspect Discussion: Gothitelle

Discussion in 'Gen 6 UU' started by meeps, Jul 10, 2014.

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  1. meeps

    meeps Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
    Discuss the possibility of Gothitelle being banned from the XY UU tier.

    Use this thread to discuss Gothitelle's effect on the metagame. Talk about different sets it can use, possible partners and team support, and potential checks and counters. State your opinion on whether Gothitelle should be banned or if it should stay in the XY UU tier.

    All opinions are valid and discussion amongst players is not only allowed but encouraged, provided your opinion has solid reasoning and displays having playing with or having playing against Gothitelle in the tier. Do not simply state "it's broken" or "it's not broken".

    Theorymon is not a valid argument and should not be used and may result in an infraction. Posters should also address other posters' arguments, not the actual posters themselves.

    If a consensus among players cannot be reached by the end of the suspect discussion period, a vote will be held.

    Please note the topic at hand is Gothitelle, not Shadow Tag as a whole and the decision concluding this suspect discussion will be to ban or not to ban Gothitelle.
     
  2. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    I feel like a broken record here, but yes Gothitelle is arguably the most broken mon in the tier atm. I believe the best set it can run is the CM Rest set. Its job is to trap walls, and nothing gives it more damage-receiving leniency than CM Rest. Just a few of the walls it can trap are Mew, Slowbro, Suicune, Donphan, Goodra, Florges, VS-less Forretress, Latias, Chesnaught, Roserade, Milotic, Quagsire, Tangrowth, Pory2, Bronzong, Alomomola, Cress, and Gastrodon.
    You notice that Slowbro, Mew and Florges are on this list. These 3 happen to be some of the only stops in the tier to Mega Medicham (Slowbro, Mew) and Hydreigon/Zygarde/Mence (Florges). This means a simple pairing of Gothitelle+Mega Medi ensures that once your only counter to Medi has easily been disposed of, Medi pretty much gets a kill every time it comes in. This is brainlessly broken, and an extremely obvious ban in my opinion.
     
  3. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    While I agree with pretty much everything ThatMushroom has said about the broken-ness of Goth itself, I think banning Goth would be treating the symptom of a much larger problem: Shadow Tag.

    Shadow Tag itself is one of the most broken and uncompetitive abilities in the game, as it ensures that any well played user of it will almost always get at least one kill, as the opposing pokemon cannot escape.

    Now, there would be two things that would be gained by banning Shadow Tag instead of Goth. The first is that Shadow Tag-less Goth could be used in UU and/or lower tiers as a legitimate pokemon. While this is not a huge boon by itself, it is strengthened by the fact that the other Shadow Tag users aren't exactly friendly either. Gothorita when given the Eviolite is essentially the same pokemon except with no leftovers and lower power, two disadvantages that are mitigated by Calm Mind and Rest. Wob is not as broken due to the more offensive nature of the metagame , but it still has the ability to easily take out most choice users, all-out attackers, and it even has the potential to nerf setup sweepers.

    All in all, I would argue that the real problem here is Shadow Tag, and that Goth just happens to be the most popular and most powerful abuser of it in UU.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 11, 2014
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  4. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Cough Cough.

    I believe Gothitelle to be broken. Shadow Tag allows it to trap many UU walls with little offensive presence and use them as set up fodder, easily attaining +6 and KO'ing mostly everything there after. The Max Physical Defense and +6 Sp Def means that revenge killing it also is very difficult, so it can often pick up 2+ kills.

    Choice Specs is also very effective Vs. Stall, able to OHKO things like Alomomola and Rhyperior, or Trick away the Specs to cripple other Walls. Against offense it has the power to trap and kill off Choice locked mons, but is generally less effective since many offensive pokemon outpace and have the capacity to 2HKO or OHKO Gothitelle.

    Overall though Gothitelle is just too effective at trapping and removing key parts of opposing teams, leaving holes for Gothitelle's team mates to take advantage of.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2014
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  5. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    I understand that the topic at hand is Goth. My argument however, is for no ban on Goth specifically because the problem is not Goth itself, but Shadow Tag.

    A comparison I'd like to make is last generation's UU ban on Snow Warning. Abomasnow was the top Snow Warning user and permanent hail was deemed broken. However, Snover could still set up hail, and Abomasnow was a legit pokemon with its other ability Soundproof (albeit significantly weaker). As a result, Abomasnow didn't get the banhammer, but instead its problematic ability did. I believe the situation with Goth is very much the same.
     
  6. Sinclair

    Sinclair Call me the Pokemon Demigod

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    I can understand how people feel it's broken because it traps walls and breaks stall, but, I feel like that's just nitpicking at this point. Gothitelle is pretty slow, and comparatively to the rest of the tier is piss weak.

    Sure it can trap and wall break quite effectively, but Gothitelle is so matchup reliant that I really can't see it as broken especially in a tier that's dominated by Hyper-Offensive playstyles. Against anything other than full stall/bulky balance Gothitelle is pretty much just dead weight and frankly pretty worthless against the ever so common offensive based teams in UU.
    TL;DR - Weak, slow, and dead weight against anything other than stall(ish) teams.
    IMO - No ban
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2014
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  7. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    Well it's pretty counterproductive to vote against banning Gothitelle and I'll tell you why. I don't know if you've been keeping up with the June/Augsust suspect thread, but the leaders made it clear that they don't want a Shadow Tag suspect as of now even though myself and like 8 other people asked for a suspect on it. They stated that they would much rather suspect Gothitelle first, then wait to see if people continue posting about Gothorita, Wobbufett etc. After this Goth ban, if people continue posting about it they'd have no choice and would have to at least suspect Shadow Tag. Banning Gothitelle is step one, if you don't vote that you want Goth banned you're just sabotaging your own cause and the cause of myself and like 8 others. Again, we've been asking for a Shadow Tag suspect for a while now but the leaders decided they want to suspect Gothitelle first and see if after the ban people still want the Shadow Tag suspect. So I hope you reconsider your vote because by not banning it your only making the chances of a Shadow Tag suspect that much slimmer.

    Two months ago I would have agreed with you that HO dominated the tier, but right now the tier is a lot more balanced. Just take people from the top 10. Jey's primary playstyle is balanced offense and he's been up there for a while now with a few alts. Grunt uses full stall and he's remained like #2 or 3, and I also use full stall and I'm around 5-8. The last time I played Zorodark he was using semi-stall, I don't know if that's changed or not but he has also peaked a few times. I'd say the most common or effective playstyle right now is balanced offense. After that HO, then stall. So the notion that Gothitelle only affects the minority of playstyles in this tier is false. Even HO teams have a Mew to Defog to keep their sashes in tact, and Gothitelle easily removes Mew from the field. It's also not bulky balance, it's balance in general. Balanced teams will almost always have a Florges, Mew, etc.
     
  8. dayum son

    dayum son New Member

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    It's not match-up reliant if you're using it to support stuff that is countered by stuff that Gothitelle can trap.

    Like one of my favorite teams is a rain team with Specs Kingdra+Gothitelle.

    Defensive team? Remove Suicune/Goodra/Florges/Slowbro what have you and then Specs Kingdra in Rain.
    HO Team? Lol I don't care if I have dead weight on the team, they're eventually going to get swept.

    Gothitelle is there to break stall/defensive cores and it does that way too well.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2014
  9. Accelgor

    Accelgor Active Member

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    In my opinion, Gothitelle should be banned because of its ability to trap walls and tanks such as Florges and Mew, thus clearing the way for a teammate to punch holes into the opposing lineup. Using Gothitelle requires little to no strategy at all, and it's a cheap method to gain an unfair advantage over the opponent. I myself don't believe that its speed is an issue as a smart player will usually seek to eliminate a defensively oriented pokemon rather than trying to get rid of a faster and dangerous threat right off the bat. With access to a superb boosting move in Calm Mind as well as recovery in Rest, Gothitelle can easily stall out a defensive pokemon while setting up itself.

    It's cancerous to the tier so a ban should be in order.
     
  10. somerandomguy

    somerandomguy Active Member

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    With several huge threats in the tier which only have a handful of counters, almost all of which Gothitelle can trap, its presence in the tier is too cancerous. As mentioned by several others, Calm Mind+Rest is its best set as it allows it to set up to +6 against things like Florges, Mew, Slowbro, and remove them from the game. This in turn makes a core of Gothitelle and Hydreigon for example just too broken, because it ensures that once Florges has been easily removed, Hydreigon doesn’t have to think twice about spamming Specs Draco Meteors. You can pair Gothitelle with almost any offensive Pokemon in the tier and rip teams apart. Banded Terrakion+Gothitelle, Mega Medicham+Gothitelle, Victini+Gothitelle, etc. Gothitelle removes almost all of these Pokemon’s counters (which include Slowbro, Mew, Swampert, etc), which probably means that every time a banded Terrakion enters the field you’re going to have to sack something.
     
  11. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    ThatMushroom, you have made an excellent point. Forget my earlier post, Gothitelle should definitely be banned. Although it seems a very large number of people who are much more accomplished than me are saying it should be banned, so my change of vote probably won't affect the proceedings much anyway.
     
  12. Gol D. Roger

    Gol D. Roger Key to Progression

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    I think Gothitelle is fine. Full stall should be sure to find a way around it, just like OU stall having to contend with Clefable. I certainly see the issues people have with Goth, but I only see a stall team once in approximately every 12 battles and they are never very good (I'm not massively good at UU either, but ~1300 is enough to have seen the majority of playstyles). I think that the metagame is quite sturdily offense-based at the moment, and Gothitelle likes to be killed against offensive teams without making much of an impact. If this suspect were somewhere where full stall made more of a difference to the meta, I would perhaps be pro-ban, but with the tier standing as it is now Gothitelle can stay in my opinion. People are just tired of having to make smart double switches and predictions to avoid getting trapped, I guess. No ban.
     
  13. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    Gothitelle also can be problematic vs offensive and balanced teams, especially so if it is able to trap and kill the glue of the team. The reason why stall suffers so much vs Gothitelle is because of their lack of offensive presence which means they are unable to dish out enough damage or cripple it, which makes its CM sets much more devastating. I'm not sure how Clefable can actually match up to Gothitelle at all when it comes to dismantiling stall by itself, since it is unable to trap any pokemon. Gothitelle prevents escape and can pick its target and set-up on it, which is far enough to differenciate it from Clefable. Definitely a pokemon who can provide immense support simply by trapping and killing almost every pokemon without significant offensive presence or taking advantage of choice-locked resists or if it has suffered an attack drop, that too is vulnerable to being trapped by goth itself, which is honestly pretty broken imo.
     
  14. Arceus_17

    Arceus_17 Avoid eye contact

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    Oh come on... Certainly, Gothitelle does an amazing job against unprepared stall teams. It is the only Pokémon in UU that can trap and eliminate key team members, namely Wish Passers and certain walls. But does that make it the most broken mon in the tier?

    This is far from true.
    - Mew learns Taunt (not as common as before but still totally viable) and shuts down CM sets. Specs Shadow Ball doesn't 2hko Calm Mew.
    - Latias: Goth can only switch in safely when Latias is at -2.
    - Milotic: Walls Specs set, phazes CM with Dragon Tail/Haze.
    - Cresselia: Ironically Goth becomes setup bait against CM Cress.
    - Donphan: Defensive variants phaze with Roar. AV Donphan 2ko's Specs set with Earthquake/Knock Off and 3ko's CM Goth which loses to it.
    - Tangrowth: Goth can't switch in AV Tangrowth. CM loses to it.
    - Alomomola: Mirror Coat is an unpleasant surprise.
    - Gastrodon. Same as Alomomola, although more uncommon.

    Pair it or not with Gothitelle, Mega Medi (or any other Pokémon that has been mentioned) will still struggle hard against offensive teams.

    In a metagame infested by boring stall teams, Gothitelle is a blessing and therefore, for the sake of the tier, I vote no ban.
     
  15. dayum son

    dayum son New Member

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    Clefable is nowhere near as good a stallbreaker as goth, and legitimately the only "way around it" is to run Shed Shell on everything that goth can trap.

    This couldn't have anything to do with the fact that Goth is allowed or people continuously refuse to ban ridiculous stallbreakers that are "hard to get into battle due to their frailty and easy to revenge kill."

    Double switches are very risky when you're facing down stuff like Mega Cham, Victini or Hyrdeigon. Furthermore, I can just double switch as you send in your counter to whatever I'm using, plus if you're switching in to total powerhouses like Cham/Victini who can often 3HKO many of their counters, if you don't get a chance to recover you're out of luck.

    I thought UU was utterly offense-based.

    And in a tier where you can freely use stupid shit like Crawdaunt and Mega Cham, Goth is absolutely needed to break stall?
     
  16. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    Ok, I wouldn't go so far as to say that it is brainlessly broken, but Goth literally makes Stall unplayable. It is not a complete dead weight against offensive teams either. It serves as a pretty good revenge killer and is able to just dismantle almost any support Pokemon you run alongside your offensive teams.

    Standard Mew doesn't run Taunt. You also need to run Speed to outspeed Standard Goth.
    Latias still doesn't like Goth. It can switch into Lefties, Scarf or bulkier variants with no problems. LO/Specs are the only ones it can't switch into.
    Milotic is mostly safe.
    Cress is safe only if CM, but I suppose that makes it mostly safe.
    I have never seen Roar Donphan before, but this is more 50/50.
    I have no experience with it vs Tangrowth. I could just do calcs and make a position but I'll trust what you say as you've been more or less spot on with the rest of your match ups.
    As for Alomomola - +6 228 SpA Gothitelle Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 704-830 (131.8 - 155.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO. Mirror Coat is irrelevant. If you can get to +6 why wouldn't you?
    And for Sea Slug, Energy Ball says hi. The only real reason to run coverage on Goth is if you are Specs or if you want to hit Darks. The choice of the move is kind of 50/50. Tbolt only has the advantage for Houndoom and Honchkrow. The former gets 2hko'd by Energy Ball at +6 and the latter gets 0hko'd after Rocks. Honchkrow also possesses the ability to just 0hko Goth so that is even more reason to run Energy Ball > Tbolt. Mirror Coat is also kind of bullshit anyway. Especially considering Sp.d gets 0hko'd by Psyshock and Def gets 0hko'd by Psychic assuming Energy Ball isn't there.

    Trick also hurts all of the aforementioned mons. And it hurts them A LOT.

    I'll post more later... maybe...
     
  17. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    ..what? How are Gothitelle and Clef even remotely comparable? How do walls have a way around Goth? They don't. Goth comes in and sets up to +6 on a wide majority of walls in the tier and they can't do anything about it unless they run the horrid Shed Shell, and it's not just stall using walls. Balanced teams and even HO teams will usually have a Mew or something which Goth sets up on for free. Balanced offense teams (which are the most common kinds of teams I've faced) always have a Florges, Mew, Slowbro, Suicune, something of that sort that Goth removes from the game. Yes the meta is more offensively inclined, but what meta isn't? I've never heard of a meta where stall was the most dominant playstyle. Even in this offensively inclined meta Goth does work, again vs balanced offense, balanced, stall, and even HO if they run a Mew or something like that. And that "People are just tired of having to make smart double switches" line is shit reasoning, because if you want to use that line of logic, then I could predict your obvious double switch fearing Goth and take advantage of that.
    Can we get a decision, tier leaders? I don't know why you guys are dragging this on so much, it's clear what the majority want, with 8 for the ban and 3 against the ban.
     
  18. Insane Soul

    Insane Soul Griffith did nothing wrong.

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    Despite having low usage in both ranked and unranked stats, lacking the overcentralizing component, Gothitelle plays the leading role in a part of our metagame that we have deemed unhealthy, and that is Shadow Tag. Gothitelle is able to trap a great majority of UU's walls and setup on them while they are virtually unable to touch it, finishing them off with a +6 Psyshock or any other coverage move you choose to use while staying in relavitely good health. After that, Gothitelle can only be killed by a critical hit, on the special spectrum, a very strong move coming from high BP or high attack stat (e.g. Banded Victini) or just a super effective hit like Knock Off from our common Dark-types.

    What sets Gothitelle apart from the other Shadow Tag users is that it can be viable against playstyles other than full stall or oportune switches on semi stall, like Gothorita. Scarf Goth reaches an high enough speed tier to outpace everything up to Tornadus-T (375), who ties with it, and has very good coverage that allows it to hit all of UU's offensive threats with a super effective move (although it has 4 moveslot syndrome in this case).

    Specs Goth, along with CM Rest Goth, is better used against balanced or stall teams, and the imposing threat of a Trick and instant crippling of a wall throughout the remainder of the match is enough to disturb a defensive core, and most importantly, make a great partner for setup offense, such as DD/Coil Zygarde, Volcarona, NP Thundurus-T and so on.

    Even if you can't run all these sets (obviously), the opponent also can't prepare for all of them, as they are all viable (although unequally, with Scarf falling a bit short), and the pressure that the opponent is put into to not let himself get trapped and possibly doomed by Gothitelle is enough to bring a consensus between the Tier Leaders that Gothitelle should, and will be banned, from the XY UU tier.

    Thank you all for your contribution and time, stay tuned for future discussions!

    PS: There has been a lot of discussion (some of it untimely) around Shadow Tag in general, and how its other users - Gothorita and Wobbuffet - should be suspected. My "suggestion" is that you leave that subject unattended, despite having the best intentions in fighting an ability that you deem uncompetitive, as its users are perfectly manageable and rely on very speficic situations to become game changing. So focus on the real threats [​IMG]
     
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