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[BW2] Latios

Discussion in 'Gen 5 Discussion' started by Cake, Nov 21, 2010.

  1. Cake

    Cake Member

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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]/[​IMG]
    Ability: Levitate
    80/90/80/130/110/110
    Weak to: 2x Bug, Ghost, Ice, Dragon, Dark
    Resistances: 1/2x Fighting, Fire, Water, Grass, Electric, Psychic

    Pretty good stats. Neutrality to Stealth Rock and immunity to spikes as well. His hp and defense while not amazing will let him live a physical hit or two. Pursuit weakness and U-turn weakness are never good. His special defense however is pretty good. Great resistances. Resisting Fire, Fight, and Ground(immune) is limited to few. His weaknesses are pretty balanced out physically and specially but seem to lean towards the physical side. His resistances are more special.

    Let's talk about offense. Offensively he's got a while usable pretty gimmicky base 90 attack. He boasts specially with a base 130 special attack. His move pool is a bit limited in the sense that he's probably going to need Hidden Power but he's got Draco Meteor. Ah yes, 210 bp move and only one resist. Off base 130 special attack it's gonna hurt, regardless. Then he can use hit and run tactics assuming there is no Pursuit. Base 110 speed is pretty nice too. He'll rest at 359 special attack/350 speed if Timid.
    (notable)Special Movepool: Draco Meteor, Dragon Pulse, Energy Ball, Grass Knot, Ice Beam, Psychic, Psycho Shock, Surf, Thunderbolt
    He's generally going to play hit and run. Come in, Draco Meteor it up, get the fuck out. Pursuit stops this of course but not everyone runs Pursuit. Speaking of which is there a Pursuiter besides Tyranitar who can switch in on Draco Meteor without getting demolished? Latias and Salamence were banned in gen 4 for over centralizing the metagame. Which in turn created a domino effect(when they weren't banned). Lots of dragons means lots of steels to try to take the said dragons moves. Even at 1/2x it hurts, and a great deal of the dragons have ground/fire moves([email protected] doesn't). It also lowers variety, and makes Stealth Rock and things like Scizor mandatory so you can hope to revenge them.

    That last bit at the end makes them sound unstopable, which they are not. They just come in hit hard and run away unless you take in account Pursuit. Sandstorm will wear Latios down because he's just not gonna be using leftovers. Stealth Rock will add up after a while but not like it did so immediately for Mence.

    I would run damage calcs but I can't get slippjeans working :/. 3 downloads of excel 2007 and the 2003 version is fucked.

    Discuss what you think about Latios. I don't think we need to wait until the final days of this generation to ban it like they did with Latias and Mence. This is also about Latios, not Latias, or Salamence.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2010
  2. Stofil

    Stofil Hello Miss Galaxy

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    With Shandera and Magnezone running around I'd be hard pressed to see how hit and run draco meteors will be stopped by anything but pursuit t-tar, especially coming from base 130 special attack. Even then if we're talking something like specs latios, which I guess might be a bit underwhelming, it's still only a resisted hit and it will probably wear down any steel pretty quickly...

    I haven't tested Latios myself, but whenever it fired of a d-meteor you either had a steel take a daunting hit or something got crippled/killed, the secondary psychic typing really does keep it in check though, as it means Shandera or a pursuiter can take care of it with little problem. Of course the trick buff could also aid Latios now seeing as if it carries specs and tricks it onto incoming choice scarf t-tar or so it still gets to pick a move, which is nifty.
     
  3. Erebos

    Erebos Banned

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    Salamence, Dragonite, Moltres, Gyarados, Swanna, Pelipper (and probably others I can't now think of) are also allowed in standard and boast those three.

    Scizor, who essentially means death for Latios (BP, U-Turn, Pursuit)

    I'm not sure wether Latios is broken at all. I've used him, and I can say, he was definitely top tier, but in no way broken. Even though you said this is not about Latias, I have to say, I've been using Latias now, and she is far, far more dangerous due to her bulk allowing her to switch in to special attacks with relative ease.

    However, Latios gets Trick. This means that Latios can effectively become one of the best steel-type lures out there. if you can trick the opponent's primary dragon move absorber with specs, they are pretty much useless. Effectively, this means that Latios can easily set up another Dragon Pokemon for a sweep.

    Anyway, I'll sit back and see where this discussion goes.
     
  4. Crystal Moogle

    Crystal Moogle Ayaya~

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    PO Trainer Name:
    Hanako
    Everyone forgets Altaria ;_;
     
  5. Cake

    Cake Member

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    I can't believe I missed those. Anywho, I also managed to miss Surf as a notable special move :/. This is my first time doing a topic like this, and i'm a slacker as it is. Also fail their. I did add that line at the last second though.

    If not choice'd Latios could pick Scizor off with HP Fire even at - 2 but a lot of them are going to be choice'd imo. So fair enough. Tyranitar, Shandera, and Scizor are all fair enough checks. Draco Meteor actually hits Tyranitar harder than Surf though, on the first turn obviously.
    Who?
     
  6. Drigger

    Drigger Fabula Nova Crystallis

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    With weather running around i think since Tyranitar is a threath to Latios Doryuuzu and Kingdra also be added to the list of Latios Threaths due to thier ability to OHKO Latios and they are faster once weather is set up.... [BTW weather is always set up :(]
     
  7. Stofil

    Stofil Hello Miss Galaxy

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    Neither can reliably come in though, and instead will have to come in on a doubleswitch or for revenging without nearly the same success as say Scizor or Shandera.
     
  8. Cake

    Cake Member

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    I don't think Shandera could take a Draco Meteor too well. It'd hang on by a thread if it could.
     
  9. cosmicexplorer

    cosmicexplorer SWAG

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    Shanderaa requires a lot of defensive EVs to be able to take a Draco Meteor, but Dory actually can come in and "only" take around ~75% from a non-Specsed Draco Meteor, due to its Steel typing, allowing it to become a semi-reliable check.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2010
  10. evolutia

    evolutia Member

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    Specially defensive Tyranitar, is very close to a full stop against Specs Latios. Blissey, Chansey, Porygon-2 also wall Specs Latios unless they are tricked, then Latios's offensive prowess is reduced. Many Steel type pokemon have the ability to wall the specs set unless Latios carries HP Fire.

    A fun set that many aren't using it is Dragon Dance Latios. Dragon Dance Latios has the ability to defeat many of it's counters. With the moveset: Dragon Dance, Dragon Claw(Outrage) HP Fire, Earthquake. Tyranitar is dispatched with a DD'd EQ, Scizor and other steels dispatched by HP Fire or EQ. It's a bit novelty but this set completely ruins it's counters. I like using it in conjunction with Latias for even more fun :3
     
  11. yiran

    yiran Become a Magical Girl!

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    Latios is essentially a Dragon-type Gengar that has much better defenses.

    Even Gengar was a top tier pokemon. A Gengar with good defenses? No thanks.
     
  12. evolutia

    evolutia Member

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    Switch Latios into a CB Normal Attack and tell me how that works out...I loathe comparing two different pokemon and making them sound the same, they aren't.

    I'm sure you could elaborate on situations where you've seen or used Latios yourself. Using "bait" terminology such as "It's a better such and such" I found rather lacking in substance.
     
  13. Cake

    Cake Member

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    I don't think many people are aware Latios is even an option to them. Psycho Shock gets Bissey also. You might call him strapped for moves but he's mainly going to use Draco Meteor. Surf will get Tyranitar(to some extent) and Heatran. While HP Fire is for steels. So his last move is a toss up between Trick and Psycho Shock.

    Also normal types are over :/. Seriously. The rise in dragons brought the rise in steels with lowered normals use. Plenty of them have fighting moves but they're not enough. Especially with how rampant fighting types are.
     
  14. evolutia

    evolutia Member

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    :/ I was being sarcastic with my normal comment. I just found comparing it to Gengar pointless, when there are other attributes to discuss.

    Also, can someone tell me why Latios is being discussed separately from Latias? Is 20 in special attack really that much different? Unless we are also discussing "physical" or "mixed" Latios, I think they should have (individual) suspect threads made at the same time. It's arguable that Latias's defense makes it harder in someways to stop than Latios.
     
  15. yiran

    yiran Become a Magical Girl!

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    Fine fine... but anyways, Latios' attacking prowess is just too high. And also with that bulk, it can withstand several special attacks. It's physical defense is also good enough. It's just a powerhouse that is hard to take down.
     
  16. evolutia

    evolutia Member

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    What about the Latias comparison (which is certainly valid in context)?
     
  17. Cake

    Cake Member

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    Fine, go for it. It's a small difference but I fill Latios hurts a lot more.
     
  18. Stofil

    Stofil Hello Miss Galaxy

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    When I made the dory/shandy example I meant that while Shandy or T-Tar coming in after a kill or on a doubleswitch spells a near 100% death for Latios, Dory won't really stop Latios from just switching out and coming back later, especially since even if dory comes in on a d-meteor his balloon will have popped and he is a lot less useful overall. At best I'd call him a check.
     
  19. Rocky

    Rocky Member

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    Cradily in Sandstorm is a pretty good counter, so is Porygon 2.
    Nevertheless they both die if they take a Draco Meteor critical hit. So does Tyranitar.
    It's pretty dangerous to try walling Latios, while it's certainly easier to do with Latias.
    It also has a great typing, letting it come in pretty often, bar Pursuits.
    Both the Latwins are too dangerous for the metagame IMO, but there are so many other threats that I'm guessing it balances out (Weather Sweepers, Shandera, Roobushin or Blaziken).
     
  20. Cake

    Cake Member

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    Shandera is going to get banned soon I think. I asked Crystal if I could make a suspect thread and she(right?) said she was going to talk to Coyotte before I can make one. Shandera is brought up a lot as a Latios check. He's not gonna be a suspect very long. Without it able to come in right after a kill Latios's effectiveness is going to increase. Especially since the need for Pursuit will die down, which is already pretty low as people can't be fucked to use a specific mon for it and even then lose a move for it.
     
  21. Stofil

    Stofil Hello Miss Galaxy

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    It's just that pursuit can always be seen coming a mile away, so most things just stay in and damage you anyway as you attack them with a 40 BP move.
     
  22. Drigger

    Drigger Fabula Nova Crystallis

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    Even tough shandera is a definety OHKO for lots of things i really dont think it should get banned... yes its not a threat to Latios without Shadow tag but based on your post. It really haults Latios' ability to KO and RUN. If Shandera gets banned... This dragon will soon follow then the rest. It's sad really when dory gets to run around freely and Shandera cant even though the thing is 400% predictable becasue it's almost always scarfed!
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2010
  23. cosmicexplorer

    cosmicexplorer SWAG

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    Shanderaa isn't really a good check to Latios besides specsed or scarfed versions that spam Draco Meteor. After a DD, Latios outspeeds it, and after a CM, Latios only takes ~62% from Shandy's Shadow Ball, while OHKOing with Dragon Pulse.
     
  24. george182

    george182 Active Member

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    Latios has many vaible offensive sets involving calm mind, but I would like to discuss the brokeness of specs Latios. I have been using this to completely wreck havoc in OU.

    Combined with spikes support Latios is just deadly, it's huge list of resitances makes it easy to switch in, you then fire off a 359 special attack dracco meteor, and punch a hole in the oponents team. You have a choice of Dragon pulse, HP fire, surf and trick in the last 3 slots. Dragon pulse allows you to sweep offensive teams once steels are gone, hp fire hits nattorie, surf hits heatran and trick for blissey. Spikes + dracco meteor is a real detterent for steels switching in, because the majority of steels have no reliable form of recovery (rest is not reliable, especially in 5th gen).

    To show the power of specs dracco meteors, here is some calcs from a timid nature, max special attack:
    vs 4hp tar = 67% - 78.9%
    vs 252 hp tar = 56.7% - 66.8%
    vs 248 hp Scizor 60.1% - 70.8% (60 + 30 = 90, so with SR it's a garunteed 2hko) (Spikes + SR can cause a OHKO!)
    vs 252 hp metagross 51.1% - 60.4% (even metagross can only take 1 Dracco meteor)

    It does have counters, Nattorie and Blissey are solid choices, although a wisely chosen trick/hpfire can end their fun, so prediction is required.

    So why is specs latios better than any other specs users?
    - Dracco Metoer: a 140 base power attack that is only resisted by 1 type, and that type is generally lacking recovery, the only common one I can think of is skarmory, who can't take Dracco meteors all day. To add to that, no one 4x resits it.
    - Well placed stats, Latios has nice defences, base 110 speeds outspeeds a lot of common pokes like Terrakion and Garchomp, and base 130 special attack allows for the OP dracco meteors to be fired off
    - Great typing, this allows Latios to switch in so many more times than a standard pokemon and fire off loads more OP specs attacks

    I have used specs latios loads, and I have to say it's completely broken.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2010
  25. Cake

    Cake Member

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    Those Tyranitar calcs, surely you forgot the sandstorm boost? I knew Latios was big but not this big :|.
     
  26. yiran

    yiran Become a Magical Girl!

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    You guys all forgot Ditto.

    Ditto revenge kills this thing.

    Although the special attack drop isn't helpful...
     
  27. Umbreonfromtheshadow

    Umbreonfromtheshadow Member

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    I have been testing out latios/latias myself on beta server and they are hard hitting pokemon.

    You basically play the hit and run strategy with draco meteor and hope they dont play pursuit. Although latios sounds great on paper he is not very powerful without specs, even life orb latios i found doesn't oko the things you need 2.

    With sandstorm for too popular for latios' comfort he might be taking a backseat while other sweeps will be more used than this.
    Also with the lack of a fire move pokemon like natoorie (cant spell and I am too lazy to look it up) can easily switch in and set up entry hazards/satus.

    No I am not saying latios is a bad pokemon, I use him all the time. However I do not thing him or his sister will be going to uber anytime soon. Also, just because I want to mention it again with the large amount of sandstorm teams with ttar/scizor [email protected]' usage is down big time.
     
  28. Cake

    Cake Member

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    Ditto won't revenge this thing. -2 un spec'd Draco Meteor wouldn't OHKO Latios.
     
  29. Umbreonfromtheshadow

    Umbreonfromtheshadow Member

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    Even if ditto won't revenge it who cares, at the point where latios is at -2 almost any sweeper that isnt dragon type can come in and revenge it.
    When in doubt after some residual damage from rocks or previous damage ditto can kill as latios.

    Also after -2 ditto can 2 hit ko latios and latios would be slower as all dittos are scarfed anyways.
     
  30. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Or, you know, the other person could have a pursuit user and Ditto is then dead. Or just switch out Latios for a free turn to do whatever they want.

    [email protected] tend to carry HP Fire for Nattorei regardless of the set. And you don't need to be able to just OHKO everything for a pokemon to be suspect; I haven't been able to get on much, but not many things can stay in for 2 hits against D meteor whether it's timid or modest.

    And I double checked Ttar's calc. In sandstorm, modest specs D meteor against 252 HP Tyranitar does 62.4% - 73.5%, accounting for Sandstorm.
     
  31. Cake

    Cake Member

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    Still a 2hko. But it's modest. Most, if not all are Timid. Still, with rocks it's almost a sure 2hko even timid.
     
  32. yiran

    yiran Become a Magical Girl!

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    I just realised Heatran still is the anti metagame pokemon. And it's all because he's a Steel type with Fire immunity.

    Now back to Latios... He is severely walled by Heatran unless he runs Surf, which... Wait, he does run Surf!

    Does he even have something to counter him other than Tyranitar and Scizor?
     
  33. cosmicexplorer

    cosmicexplorer SWAG

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    Heatran isn't OHKOed by Surf if it runs any sort of defensive investment, and can hit really hard back with Dragon Pulse.
     
  34. Stofil

    Stofil Hello Miss Galaxy

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    I believe it is 2HKOed though, so unless it is scarf, at which point it won't run defensive investments anyway, I really don't see Heatran stopping this thing outside of forcing it out after an attack or a kill which surprise surprise, plenty of other things does better.
     
  35. george182

    george182 Active Member

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    my bad, I new something was wrong lol

    vs 4hp tar = 67% - 78.9%
    vs 252 hp tar = 56.7% - 66.8%

    full spikes + SR support will give you garunteed OHKO and 2hko respectively

    Also specs latios vs 252hp, 252 sp.def calm heatran = 55.4% - 65.8% with surf
    so it's not a OHKO, but it's a garunteed 2hko
    vs scarf tran = 101.5% - 119.5%
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2010
  36. cosmicexplorer

    cosmicexplorer SWAG

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    @George182: Remember, Draco Meteor lowers special attack, so that what would be a 2HKO with a normal attack would not 2HKO with Draco Meteor.

    Also, where did you get those calcs? I have max SpA modest specs latios's draco meteor doing 33.7% - 39.6% to specially defensive Heatran, and 61.3% - 72.4% to scarftran. I also have max SpA timid specs latios doing
    77.5% - 91.3% to specially defensive TTar, and a straight OHKO on Scarftar. Feel free to correct me, but that's what I got.
     
  37. george182

    george182 Active Member

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    what lol, you were the one talking about using surf lol, cus you said surf wasn't a OHKO and I was just giving you the calc to proove your point. But I will edit it in as it is unclear.

    I changed my calcs to include sandstorm, because if t-tar switches in sandstorm is up (thanks to cake for pointing that out)
     
  38. Cake

    Cake Member

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    So does anyone want to get permision to make a suspect thread? I guess I could do it but meh. It has no counters. Tyranitar is the only thing that can take a Draco Meteor and even then he doesn't take it well. Even if there are steels who take it well they're the only people who are going to take them. Latios has 5 friends to back him up too. Sandstorm boosted Trollpobass is probably the best taker of Draco Meteor. Who Surf hits for super effective.

    If you go modest with Mence you'll be hitting the same numbers more or less but with 50 less speed. Timid Mence stills hurts like hell. Look at me, eh? The guy who said this wasn't about Mence or Latias bringing up Mence. I'm so hypocritical.
     
  39. coyotte508

    coyotte508 Well-Known Member Administrator Server Owner Administrator Server Owner

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    That's just so wrong. I use a Timid latios with 252 Sp. Atk evs with choice specs and lots of thing survive a Draco Meteor. Including Scizor and Tyranitar who'll just Pursuit latios and KO it.

    Sometimes I run into roobushin with Sp Def investments and I'm far from the KO when I DM them.

    Also Nattorei counters latios very well, and it's not mentioned. Please use the damn things before making it a suspect.

    Edit: Not to mention Blissey.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2010
  40. george182

    george182 Active Member

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    Bronzong is also a good switch in,, but like most steels, no reliable recovery means that he cannot take dracco meteors all day. It's also worht noting that hp fire on the standard gen4 bronzong does 50.3% - 59.2%, so it's a garunteed 2hko after stealth rocks negate the leftovers. Sp.def tyranitar only takes 40.8% - 48.3%.

    Snorlax is a nice counter, taking only 44.1% - 52.1%, and has pursuit to trap a weakened latios. Blissy counters it as always. Nattorei is not a latios counter due to it's 4x fire weakness.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2010