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[HGSS] DPP OU Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by Finchinator, Jul 20, 2014.

  1. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Welcome to the DPP OU Viability Rankings! In case you're not familiar with the concept, we place Pokémon in certain ranks here, based on their impact on the tier as well as their general viability in the tier. This is an excellent help while teambuilding and it serves as a general outline of the tier.

    If you feel that a Pokémon is misplaced, feel free to make a post about it, after all that's what this thread is for. There's a couple of rules, though. First and foremost, make sure your arguments are clear. You may use usage statistics in your argument, but make sure your reasoning isn't entirely based on those. As always, be civil and don't get personal. PS: Only added mini-sprites for S rank and the entire A rank for now, but more will be added as time passes (not a necessity and wanted to get this up as procrastinated a lot since we had preliminary ranks finished).

    Special thanks to @noname4505 and @bugzinator for their contributions.

    [​IMG]
    S Rank
    S Rank: S Rank is reserved for Pokemon who are extremely threatening and impact the metagame in a major way. These Pokemon can either fulfill a variety of roles or are superlative in performing one task on a team.

    [​IMG] Heatran
    [​IMG] Jirachi
    [​IMG] Rotom-A*
    [​IMG] Starmie
    [​IMG] Tyranitar

    *Rotom-A means all of the forms of Rotom, barring the normal form, but this is the only pic of this exact size for Rotom, so it'll have to suffice.

    [​IMG]
    High A Rank
    A Rank: A Rank Pokemon generally perform very well in the tier, but have some minor flaws that prevent them from fulfilling their roles consistantly. Although threatening, they usually require a bit more team support than S-Rank Mons.

    [​IMG] Breloom
    [​IMG] Dragonite
    [​IMG] Gyarados
    [​IMG] Lucario
    [​IMG] Skarmory
    [​IMG] Zapdos

    A Rank
    [​IMG] Azelf
    [​IMG] Blissey
    [​IMG] Celebi
    [​IMG] Flygon
    [​IMG] Forretress
    [​IMG] Gengar
    [​IMG] Gliscor
    [​IMG] Hippowdon
    [​IMG] Infernape
    [​IMG] Kingdra
    [​IMG] Metagross
    [​IMG] Scizor
    [​IMG] Shaymin
    [​IMG] Suicune
    [​IMG] Swampert

    Low A Rank
    [​IMG]Aerodactyl
    [​IMG] Bronzong
    [​IMG]Crobat
    [​IMG] Empoleon
    [​IMG] Roserade

    [​IMG]
    High B Rank
    B Rank: B Rank Pokemon usually have some sort of major flaw that prevents them from being a more common presence in the tier. However, they still are able to perform their roles very well with proper team support.

    [​IMG]Dugtrio
    [​IMG]Jolteon
    [​IMG]Machamp
    [​IMG]Raikou
    [​IMG]Vaporeon
    [​IMG]Venusaur

    B Rank
    [​IMG]Abomasnow
    [​IMG]Clefable
    [​IMG]Cresselia
    [​IMG]Heracross
    [​IMG]Magnezone
    [​IMG]Milotic
    [​IMG]Nidoqueen
    [​IMG]Snorlax
    [​IMG]Tentacruel
    [​IMG]Togekiss
    [​IMG]Weavile

    Low B Rank
    [​IMG]Cradily
    [​IMG]Froslass
    [​IMG]Gallade
    [​IMG]Hitmontop
    [​IMG]Kabutops
    [​IMG]Rhyperior
    [​IMG]Slowbro
    [​IMG]Uxie

    [​IMG]
    High C Rank
    C Rank: C Rank Pokemon have notable niches in the metagame, but usually require significant support. These Pokemon face competition for their roles from the higher ranked Pokemon, but can find still find use.

    [​IMG]Qwilfish
    [​IMG]Ludicolo
    [​IMG]Lanturn
    [​IMG]Staraptor
    [​IMG]Spiritomb
    [​IMG]Yanmega
    [​IMG]Quagsire
    [​IMG]Donphan

    C Rank
    [​IMG]Honchkrow
    [​IMG]Blaziken
    [​IMG]Smeargle
    [​IMG]Registeel
    [​IMG]Moltres
    [​IMG]Arcanine
    [​IMG]Alakazam
    [​IMG]Hariyama
    [​IMG]Umbreon

    [​IMG]
    D Rank
    D Rank: D Rank Pokemon either have an extremely small niche in the tier, or are generally outclassed by higher-ranked Pokemon in a majority of circumstances.

    [​IMG]Charizard
    [​IMG]Ambipom
    [​IMG]Porygon-Z
    [​IMG]Blastoise
    [​IMG]Houndoom
    [​IMG]Dusknoir
    [​IMG]Torterra
    [​IMG]Shuckle

    E Rank
    [​IMG]Electivire


    Potential Changes:
    • Infernape
    • Lucario
    • Gengar
    • Abomasnow
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2014
  2. MewtwoHidden

    MewtwoHidden My Hax Makes Me Famous

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    I might be a bit biased since one of the only teams I use has Gallade, but in my experience Life Orb Gallade lead is quite a solid mon, gives a lot of common leads trouble, and I'd consider having it moved from B- to B.
     
  3. monferno

    monferno blazing

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    Infernape and Scizor are too high

    Crobat is too low

    Venusaur is too low

    Milotic is too low

    Noticed these at a quick glance. I can elaborate if needed
     
  4. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Proposed changes so far:
    • Infernape to A
    • Crobat to A-
    • Venusaur to B+
    • Milotic to B
    • Gallade to B

    I'll let this get discussed among whoever wishes to discuss it and then make a decision based off of that and my own reasoning in a couple days (could be sooner if it's a one sided discussion).
     
  5. Luck>Skill

    Luck>Skill Well-Known Member

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    flygon is too high imo, high A? A at best

    scarf is terrible because choiced eq sucks and does no damage, scarfed outrage hits like a butterfly

    cbgon is a lot better but still choiced eq is terrible, choiced outrage is eh, mixgon is...not something I'd use honestly, it can work vs some teams but its deadweight vs too much stuff imo

    aerodactyl should go low A rather than high B, breloom should be high A and scizor mid A I think

    but it's pokemon so everything is opinable w/e
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2014
  6. Johnidel

    Johnidel Chirp chirp

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    You have Metagross on their twice.
    I agree with what luck said about Flygon.
    I think Weavile should be High B. It is one of the best late game cleaners in DPP imo as well as one of the best pursuit trappers as it deals with starmie/azelf/gengar/Rotom/scarf ttar/dd ttar etc. Weavile's main problem is it can't break bulky waters or most stall teams but it is great against offense. Also, Ice Shard helps deal with Outrage locked dnite/flygon/etc.
     
  7. monferno

    monferno blazing

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    I agree with you on Flygon to A, but you're really underselling its sets. Choice Scarf is not too bad, who cares if it doesn't do a lot of damage, what it does is switch in on a couple of things, it can U-turn and it revenge kills setup sweepers when you need it to. I agree it's not a great set but still.

    Choice Band is good, Choiced Outrage is not eh, stuff like SpDef Hippowdon / Gliscor thinking they can switch in Flygon easy cause it's either Scarf or Mix, but they can't. So they usually don't really have something to take those Outrages, except smth like SpDef Tran but that's never gonna switch in unless it knows its locked. Mixgon, it is really good versus some teams and still ok vs other teams. I wouldn';t say it is deadweight vs a bunch of stuff, maybe DS and RD ? But that's about it. Vs normal offensive teams, w/ Roost it's still an ok Heatran / Tyranitar switchin. Also gives ti time to launch off hit. And it shines vs semistall / balanced teams, for example that Quagsire team that has been going around, has no switchins to MixGon except predicting around it. And then it can just switch out and come back in later. and that's a niche that's A worthy imo

    agree with aero, idk about breloom but i can understand it, spore is a fucking terrible move, scizor i agree.


    also regarding weavile, B+ is way too high. B is even a nice ranking for it. Tyranitar is usually a better pursuit trapper, idk what you are talking about when you say it pursuits ttar, i assume you mean low kick? ok it cna switch in outspeed and ohko, but you're gonna have a sac a mon to do that. i wouldn't say it's thát good against offense, there's still a bunch of stuff that deals with it easily (metagross, scizor, jirachi, heatran, suicune, gyarados, lucario, machamp). low bp moves means it can't hit that hard, i mean Choice Band (even though usually LO) Night Slash (which is a bit uncommon) doesn't even 2HKO Suicune. LO Low Kick does even less. i mean it is p good against offense still, and i do use it sometimes (though not often), but it's not B+ worthy esp when you consider how bad it is against stall and balance. can't even trap scarf rotom-a since tbolt 2hkoes and pursuit doesnt ko..

    e: also @Finchinator your image links are broken i think
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2014
  8. Luck>Skill

    Luck>Skill Well-Known Member

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    yeah well I'm still thinking of it as an A mon, it's decent but I don't like choiced ground/dragon STABs, that's it, uturn is a great move and its typing is decent but eh

    lol'd @

    E Rank
    Electivire

    good job
     
  9. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Flygon to A
    Infernape to A
    Venu to B+
    Milo+Gallade to B

    these all will be implemented

    Crobat and Aero to A- I'm on the fence about still.

    Will edit with reasoning and edit the OP after work later today
     
  10. monferno

    monferno blazing

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    umm i just see milo + gallade to the same tier, but milo is definitely better than gallade, so either milo needs to be higher or gallade lower (the latter prob). imo, at least.

    also, crobat is a- because it's just really useful, excellent switchin to pretty much all grass types and all fighting types, taunt + roost really is awesome vs stall, scarftar is not aproblem either cause uturn is super effective and wears it down quickly. just lookat like standard kg stall: hippowdon gets taunted and can do nothing, same for blissey, gyarados does very little with waterfall i think, tyranitar gets worn down by uturn like i said, forre can spin that's all, and rotom-a is forced to tbolt so you can uturn to w/e. also it's really fast and bb is powerful. um i'm probably not explaining this right, but it can switch in on a lot of threatening pokemon and also does stuff itself.

    also scizor is not a+ rank, move it down to A imo
     
  11. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    the new old gen forum staff member is a nice god and has added actually working sprites to the OP.
     
    Weavile and Finchinator like this.
  12. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Flygon to A: The scarf set is /average/ at best; it does the job decently, but nothing exceptionally strong, surprising, or really good in general. The band set is a nice hard hitter with a solid base 100 speed tier (outpacing pokemon like Heatran, Lucario, Rotom, Suicune, etc.), but it's prone to getting revenge killed, locking into outrage for 2-3 turns, and still not being able to break walls like Skarmory. Finally, the mixed set has a niche of hitting pokemon like Skarmory, Gliscor, and Bronzong, which it lures in quite nicely, but otherwise doesn't fair too well and can miss the power CB has. With this being said, Flygon is a solid pokemon, but it has some noteworthy flaws and while it fulfills multiple roles, each have their pros and cons, making mid-A rank a perfect place for it to reside.

    Infernape to A: Infernape can run Mixed, Scarf, Band, Lead, etc. sets, but it doesn't fulfill any role exceedingly well, in my opinion. The scarf set is nice as a revenge killer, but it's horrendously frail, cannot wallbreak, and is generally underwhelming. As for the mixed and band sets, they generally have the ability to wallbreak, with overheat/cc on mixed and brute power on blitz/cc on band, but it has to be played relatively well and can still be kept in check. Finally, the lead set is pretty average, but it does get its job done generally. Overall, I don't see the upside as amounting to enough to give it A+ while I see it being comparably good to pokemon in the A rank, so it'll now reside there.

    Venusaur to B+: I haven't used it a ton, but it seems to fit nicely on bulky-offensive and some stallish teams. Generally speaking, it possess the ability to wall a lot of pokemon (bulky waters, electrics, etc. to be general) while it also isn't dead-weight on the offensive, either. Finally, it fits nicely onto standard FWG cores on the aforementioned archetypes, so bumping it up to high B seems to be the right move.

    Milotic to B: Haven't touched this a ton either, but based off of some SWCOP games (see: August) and the general consensus above (nobody opposed it), I will let it go up.

    Crobat to A-: Honestly, I'm not a fan of CB Bat, but the main set that we should be focusing on is stalbreaker. As tomahawk mentioned, it has a solid pivot move in u-turn for things like Scarf tyranitar, raikou, etc. It can be a very annoying pokemon to many teams with fast Taunt + Roost, too, while having the ability to check things like Lucario, Shaymin, and Breloom. While it doesn't look too stellar on paper and only has a couple pros (I mentioned some above), it's a genuinely good team supporter and can leave opposing teams that cannot break it (stall) in an awkward position. Furthermore, A- is where it will now reside.

    @Tomahawk9 and @MewtwoHidden - both of you should elaborate more on Gallade as you're the two who mentioned it and I won't officially move it up until I hear more. I personally like it as an unconventional lead - it hits hard, has solid dual STABs, and is a bitch to check when using offensive teams.

    In addition, I'd like to hear more on:
    • Aerodactyl to low A
    • Scizor to A
    • Breloom to high A
    • Weavile to high B
    • Machamp to low A (some guys I was talking with earlier on the server brought it up - I personally like it for high B, but I suppose putting it up for debate is only fair)
    Finally, updating the OP now with the above changes

    Edit: Alphabetized S, A, and B ranks
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2014
    bugzinator likes this.
  13. Luck>Skill

    Luck>Skill Well-Known Member

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    Aerodactyl is the fastest SR lead, fastest taunt user as well, and used to be one of the main leads back when DPP was the main meta toghether with azelf (then iirc there was the rise of machamps and only after the latimence ban, of shucatran, but my memory might be mixing things up), it can also run a very effective stallbreaker set with LO roost + QuakEdge coverage, the sandstorm buff in DPP helps it a lot with tanking attacks and is a decent switchin to some mons and can force switches / has decent switchins itself (wowless tran, and do damage with base 105 attack and STAB on one of the best offensive typings (if you can live with the low accuracy)

    basically it's better than B mons because it can do more than just one thing, unlike the other B+ mons, but still it doesn't do enough different stuff, or does what it does good enough for it to be considered a top tier threat, which is why I believe it should be put in A-

    Scizor just isn't as good as it used to be, purely because of how the metagame shaped, check your own viability rankings, heatan and rotom are the best defensive checks you can use for Scizor, and their usage is so high that Scizor just isn't as good as it used to be, back then when it could check Latias and Bullet Punch could revenge Salamence reliably it was a lot "better", and Heatran had lower usage because of latimence, it's just how the metagame naturally shaped after the ban of the Dragons, a lot other mons in S and A can check it reliably: Jirachi, Zapdos, Gyarados are all excellent checks (provided jirachi carries fire punch), Gyarados and Zapdos are a full stop to it

    its still a big threat, SD and CB both hit super hard and bullet punch is still a great move, just not as great as it used to be with all the Heatrans running around

    Weavile suffered more or less of the same metagame shape that hit Scizor, except Weavile is more of a niche mon than Zor, no U-turn, terrible typing both offensively and defensively, lack of decently powered STABs, SR weakness, it was a great mon to pursuit Latias and defeat Outraging Salamences and whatnot

    I'm not saying Weavile is bad, just that its niche became even smaller as the time passed, its great speed and access to STAB Pursuit, as well as the ability to revenge kill some threats are still useful, but it has way too many drawbacks, so moving it to B would probably be best

    I don't know about Machamp, its my personal favourite lead in DPP, but its just...a lead, which doesn't even place down SR, most of the times I tried it with other sets (subencore, resttalk) they seemed way too situational to me, which is why I'd lean more to it being a B+ mon, its a great offensive lead, but thats it really, and it still has some tough matchups and has lots of decent checks

    after writing this I convinced myself B+ is the right tier for it so I guess its what I'd go with if I had to make a final judgment

    Gallade is a decent lead and can run a TR set to start off a TR team but I haven't used it much so I can't tell how well it fares
     
  14. monferno

    monferno blazing

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    well gallade is an ok lead w/ dual stab, ss, and ice punch but that's the only thing it's good at. and with that it has a lot of competition as well, lum champ, sash champ, medicham i've seen lately (p good, c rank imo), and lots of other non-fighting types. i mean, it certainly does a fine job but B- is fine for it.

    also weavile i've talked a bunch about in a previous post i believe.. B+ is way way too high for that mon.

    also scizor to A, agreed it ain't A worthy, being able to RK stuff with CB BP isn't worth it anymore when there's not that much you check with it and it gets set up on a lot. scarf, offensive sd and bulky sd are great sets btu not A+ worthy.
     
  15. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Aerodactyl to A-
    Scizor to A
    Weavile to B
    Gallade to B-
    Machamp to B+

    Whatever people wish to discuss, the thread is now open to it. We've covered everything that's been brought up so far. I'm too lazy to elaborate on the above, but can upon request (or see toma/luck 's posts).
     
  16. george182

    george182 Active Member

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    I think gliscor needs to be higher. It doesn't need any support to be effective, but receives a nice buff from sandstorm.

    Taunt u-turn is a great pivot against offense and stall, while taunt toxic I'd almost consider a sweeper. Seriously gliscor is a huge threat!

    Sp.def gliscor is a great addition to any stall team, checking many troublesome pokemon like mix dragonite, infernape, tyranitar and super raichi. Its also capable of tanking through teams with a taunt toxic set.

    Sub SD gliscor while underrated, is a great sweeper and its counters aren't too hard to remove. Although this set is reliant on sandstorm. Unless you use hyper cutter.

    But no one likes facing gliscor, its a pain to deal with because its so threatening.
     
  17. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Personally, I am not too big a fan of Gliscor. It does have a significant niche as a pokemon for the aforementioned (see Geo's post) reasons, but its flaws of not being able to do much against a lot of pokemon, having a weakness to many common SAtkers, etc. are pretty big although it's generally more of a pivot / utility / wall.

    Overall, I'd be fine with it going to A, but would like to see more discussion as I don't have too much to say on the matter.

    so ya

    Up for Discussion:
    Gliscor to A
     
  18. Luck>Skill

    Luck>Skill Well-Known Member

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    Gliscor is the definition of "pain to face", whatever set it is running, it WILL do work, sure, it has weaknesses and there are decent checks for every set (skarmory mostly), but a fast Taunt, U-Turn, great bulk, 95 base speed, and Flying / Ground typing are excellent in DPP OU

    I agree that A is a fitting place for Gliscor for the aforementioned reasons + George's post
     
  19. BLUFF GOD

    BLUFF GOD eat an apple day sed,,

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    looks fine but;

    gengar + infernape need to be moved to a+
     
  20. champagne papi

    champagne papi if young tokyo tom don't trust you...

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    lucario is too high. all the other a+ mons are both more threatening / versatile. it's a great pokemon which fits on most playstyles but not a+ good. a is fine

    gliscor should be a for reasons george highlighted. also, subsd gliscor is something I'm fairly sure no one wants to face

    abomasnow is better than venusaur, I'd switch their ranks around

    (charizard is worse than electivire)
     
  21. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Moving Gliscor to A.

    Infernape (again) to A+, Gengar to A+, Lucario to A, and Abomasnow to B+ are now all up for discussion.
     
  22. champagne papi

    champagne papi if young tokyo tom don't trust you...

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    gengar in a+ seems kinda extreme considering it's very weak to pursuit which is everywhere already because of starmie and rotom. a is fine
     
  23. MoxieInfinite

    MoxieInfinite Member

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    luke isnt a+

    not sure if gyarados is either, but i can live with that.
     
  24. Undefeated

    Undefeated .To hax, learn to be haxed.

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    Undefeated.
    Infernape and Gengar need to go in A+.
     
  25. george182

    george182 Active Member

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    I actually think lucario is back to his best. With so many slow starmies to outspeed and scarf tars to set up on. Alot of stall relies on scarf tar and scarf rotom to revenge lucario, making it an excellent stall breaking tool by spamming unboosted attacks.

    Against offense people seem to have stopped bringing lucario counters and its another case of abusing this, using lucario like you would a mix nite or infernape to force prediction games in your favour.

    Gengar is amazing if they dont have a scarf tar, otherwise its useless. It can never be a+ imo.

    Abomansow is an excellent check to all special water types and an offensive presence too. Leech seed with protect and leftovers! more than covers for the sr weakness and makes it easy to maintain momentum. With earthquake and blizzard it gets almost perfect coverage and nails its popular switch ins (jirachi, heatran, skarmory) also checks electric types and cm jirachi. I would make a case for A rank if it was more popular.

    Infernape will tear any team apart if given the chance and the choice band set is so hard to face because it cant be easily worn down and close combat spam is really good. Its only reliable check is cresselia, which no one uses. I vote A + but i can see why people would oppose that.