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XY NU Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Gen 6 NU' started by Incon, Jul 24, 2014.

  1. Incon

    Incon I feel incapable of seeing the end.

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    XY NU Viability Rankings
    Greetings, and welcome to the official Pokemon Online XY NU viability rankings. This thread aims at creating a clear ranking system for all viable Pokemon in the XY NU tier. As a community, we will determine where a Pokemon should be placed, if it should be moved up or down, etc. Users are encouraged to post their thoughts on a Pokemon's viability stating whether or not the Pokemon should be moved up or down or where a Pokemon not already on the list should be placed. Along with that, please include an explanation for your reasoning. Posts suggesting that a Pokemon should be banned, or posts without any explanation may result in infraction.

    Myself, alongside my fellow tier leaders Afro Smash and Daybreak (with the help of CasedVictory) have created a preliminary ranking list for a lot of viable Pokemon in the tier. Feel free to call us out on anything you don't agree with!


    ___________________________________________________________________

    S Rank:
    S Rank is reserved for Pokemon who are extremely threatening and impact the metagame in a major way. These Pokemon can either fulfill a variety of roles or are superlative in performing one task on a team.

    [​IMG] Hippowdon
    [​IMG]Magneton


    A Rank:
    A Rank Pokemon generally perform very well in the tier, but have some minor flaws that prevent them from fulfilling their roles consistently. Although threatening, they usually require a bit more team support than S-Rank Pokemon.

    A+
    [​IMG]Druddigon
    [​IMG] Milotic
    [​IMG]Vaporeon

    A
    [​IMG]Cinccino
    [​IMG] Feraligatr
    [​IMG]Froslass
    [​IMG]Gallade
    [​IMG] Rotom-H
    [​IMG] Spiritomb
    [​IMG]Virizion
    [​IMG]Xatu

    A-
    [​IMG]Gothorita
    [​IMG]Jellicent
    [​IMG]Jolteon
    [​IMG]Jynx
    [​IMG]Ninetales
    [​IMG] Rotom-C
    [​IMG]Scrafty
    [​IMG]Seismitoad
    [​IMG]Smeargle
    [​IMG]Stoutland
    [​IMG]Venomoth
    [​IMG]Vileplume
    [​IMG]Wobbuffet

    B Rank:
    B Rank Pokemon usually have some sort of major flaw that prevents them from being a more common presence in the tier. However, they still are able to perform their roles very well with proper team support.

    B+
    [​IMG]
    Amoonguss
    [​IMG]Bronzong

    [​IMG] Drapion
    [​IMG]Dugtrio
    [​IMG]Eelektross
    [​IMG]Emboar
    [​IMG]Fletchinder
    [​IMG] Golbat
    [​IMG]Gorebyss
    [​IMG] Granbull
    [​IMG]Gurdurr
    [​IMG]Hitmontop
    [​IMG] Mesprit
    [​IMG]Mismagius
    [​IMG] Noivern
    [​IMG]Omastar
    [​IMG]Qwilfish
    [​IMG]Sawk
    [​IMG]Sigilyph
    [​IMG]Shiftry
    [​IMG]Swellow
    [​IMG]Typhlosion
    [​IMG]Uxie
    [​IMG]Weezing

    B
    [​IMG]Accelgor
    [​IMG]Bouffalant
    [​IMG]Combusken
    [​IMG]Dragalge
    [​IMG]Ferroseed
    [​IMG]Garbodor
    [​IMG]Gastrodon
    [​IMG]Hariyama
    [​IMG]Heliolisk

    [​IMG]Hitmonchan
    [​IMG]Kangaskhan
    [​IMG]Klinklang
    [​IMG]Lickilicky
    [​IMG]Magmortar
    [​IMG]Miltank
    [​IMG]Quagsire
    [​IMG]Rhydon
    [​IMG]Samurott
    [​IMG]Sceptile
    [​IMG]Scyther
    [​IMG]Slurpuff
    [​IMG]Steelix
    [​IMG]Trevenant
    [​IMG]Vivillon
    [​IMG]Zangoose

    B-
    [​IMG]Ambipom
    [​IMG]Archeops
    [​IMG]Clawitzer
    [​IMG]Cradily
    [​IMG] Ditto
    [​IMG]Dusknoir
    [​IMG]Exeggutor
    [​IMG]Golurk
    [​IMG]Gourgeist-XL
    [​IMG]Lanturn
    [​IMG]Leavanny
    [​IMG]Liepard
    [​IMG]Lilligant
    [​IMG]Primeape
    [​IMG]Pyroar
    [​IMG]Regirock
    [​IMG]Rotom
    [​IMG]Sandslash
    [​IMG]Skuntank
    [​IMG]Ursaring
    [​IMG]Victreebel
    [​IMG]Whimsicott

    C Rank:
    C Rank Pokemon have notable niches in the metagame, but usually require significant support. These Pokemon face competition for their roles from the higher ranked Pokemon, but can find still find use.

    C+
    [​IMG]Arbok

    [​IMG]Armaldo
    [​IMG]Cacturne
    [​IMG]Chatot
    [​IMG]Cryogonal
    [​IMG]Electivire
    [​IMG]Flareon
    [​IMG]Gogoat
    [​IMG]Golem
    [​IMG]Kadabra
    [​IMG]Kecleon
    [​IMG]Lapras
    [​IMG]Malamar
    [​IMG]Mantine

    [​IMG]Mr. Mime
    [​IMG]Muk
    [​IMG]Poliwrath
    [​IMG]Probopass
    [​IMG]Raichu
    [​IMG]Roselia
    [​IMG]Rotom-S
    [​IMG]Sneasel
    [​IMG]Togetic
    [​IMG]Tyrantrum

    C
    [​IMG]Ariados
    [​IMG]Articuno
    [​IMG]Aurorus
    [​IMG]Avalugg
    [​IMG]Basculin
    [​IMG]Camerupt
    [​IMG]Carracosta
    [​IMG]Claydol
    [​IMG]Crustle
    [​IMG]Dodrio
    [​IMG]Dusclops
    [​IMG]Kingler
    [​IMG]Linoone
    [​IMG]Marowak
    [​IMG]Masquerain
    [​IMG]Ninjask
    [​IMG]Pangoro
    [​IMG]Regice
    [​IMG]Sawsbuck
    [​IMG]Serperior
    [​IMG]Stunfisk
    [​IMG]Swoobat
    [​IMG]Torterra

    [​IMG]Tangela
    [​IMG]Volbeat

    C-
    [​IMG]Carbink
    [​IMG]Glaceon

    [​IMG]Leafeon
    [​IMG]Meowstic (M)
    [​IMG]Pawniard
    [​IMG]Pelipper
    [​IMG]Relicanth
    [​IMG]Rotom-F
    [​IMG]Shedinja
    [​IMG]Simipour
    [​IMG]Swanna
    [​IMG] Torkoal
    [​IMG]Vullaby
    [​IMG]Whirlipede
    [​IMG]Zebstrika

    [​IMG]Zweilous

    D Rank:
    D Rank Pokemon either have an extremely small niche in the tier, or are generally outclassed by higher-ranked Pokemon in a majority of circumstances.

    [​IMG]Altaria
    [​IMG]Barbaracle
    [​IMG]Bastiodon
    [​IMG]Fraxure
    [​IMG]Frogadier
    [​IMG]Heatmor
    [​IMG]Lumineon
    [​IMG]Machoke
    [​IMG]Meganium
    [​IMG]Misdreavus
    [​IMG]Munchlax
    [​IMG]Raticate
    [​IMG] Regigigas
    [​IMG]Simisage
    [​IMG]Simisear
    [​IMG]Snover
    [​IMG] Walrein



    __________________________________________________________

    If a pokemon cannot be found in the above list it has no niche and cannot be justified for use over another, better pokemon.

    There you have it, folks! The XY NU Viability Rankings. As you can see there are a ton of Pokemon on this list already simply because there are so many viable things in the tier. Let the discussion begin.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 30, 2014
  2. Incon

    Incon I feel incapable of seeing the end.

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    Current points of discussion:

    - Magneton to S-Tier?
    - Sawk to A-?
    - Zangoose to A-?
    - Spiritomb to A?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 20, 2014
  3. topah

    topah Active Member

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    -stunfisk needs to be added somewhere (how did you miss him)
    -musharna needs to be added somewhere
    -gourgeist-xl needs to be added somewhere
    -probopass needs to be added somewhere
    -dusknoir needs to be added somewhere
    -murkrow needs to be added somewhere
    -jumpluff needs to be added somewhere
    -persian needs to be added somewhere
    -beheeyem needs to be added somewhere
    -duosion needs to be added somewhere
    -dragonair needs to be added somewhere
    -octillery needs to be added somewhere
    -luxray needs to be added somewhere
    -throh needs to be added somewhere
    -raichu/pikachu needs to be added somewhere
    -no huntail love?

    -fletchinder B- pls make it B at least its very good at 6-0ing at +2
    -jolteon should be lower, it cant do much besides spam volt switch and its coverage is mediocre (hp grass/ice fail to ohko anything *sob*)
    -chesnaught should be higher, its an amazing physical wall
    -carbink should be mid C rank, its also a niche moltres counter

    -Accupressure Drapion needs to be added to Topah tier
    -(Scarf) Natu needs to be added to Topah tier
    -Vanilluxe needs to be added to Topah tier (boom)

    I like how Shuckle is so high, not that it doesn't deserve, but it is just nice to see it in finally recognized for doing something.

    also does anyone want to play topah tier??
     
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  4. Incon

    Incon I feel incapable of seeing the end.

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    That's great that you think so many things should be added to the list, but can you at least give some detail on why or where they should be added. They will not be considered until there is more discussion. (Except Topah tier mons :D).
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2014
  5. Galblade

    Galblade FAT PRINCESS

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    Gourgeist XL is a better Trevenant. better bulk but no harvest for lum or whatever it runs.
     
  6. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Huntail - Completely outclassed by Gorebyss
    Persian - Completely outclassed by Ambipom
    Murkrow - not really worthy of a mention

    Dusknoir can go C+, Sub Punch + Priority is always nice, Stunfisk C+ for unique typing, good stats and being one of the best Brav Counters in the tier Gourgeist-XL can go B- since it has Wisp, Leech Seed and very good Defensive stats.

    Raichu can go C- with Zebstrika, filling basically the same role, and Probopass can go C since its a good Special Wall and can gain momentum with Volt Switch.

    All the others can just be thrown in D, since there really isn't much justification to ever use them over other higher ranked mons.

    Chesnaught, whilst it is a very good Wall, it finds itself threatened by a lot in this curent meta, Toxicroak/Delphox/Moltres/Braviary, some of the most popular mons all handle it with no problem, Xatu existing has meant that its role as a Spiker is somewhat obsolete. It's obviously still good which is why its B+, this current meta just isn't kind to it

    Not opposed to Carbink moving, though its niche in countering Moltres might not be relevant for much longer.

    Jolteon, with 130 Base Speed is fantastic Vs. offense, only struggling with priority, Specs/LO Volt Switches can leave opponents worn down fairly quickly, and Sub Pass is incredibly effective.

    Fletchinder, will need more experience before commenting.

    These are just my opinons btw, I'm not gonna implement without support.
     
  7. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    I personally would rank Goth higher. It has the pretty powerful ability take out pretty much any wall, making it easy for sweepers to do their job.
     
  8. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Stoutland should no way be in A tier. Zangoose is more consistent overall, and requires less support to be able to do its job. Once the Sandstorm's gone, you basically have an outclassed Pokémon - Zangoose, Tauros and Swellow are faster, while Ursaring is more powerful. B- tops IMO. I'd put Beheeyem in C personally, as it is a great wallbreaker and can even sweep with Trick Room, but it is quite slow and has average bulk. Ursaring should be higher too - Quick Feet is great with Sticky Web support, while Guts is one of the best wallbreakers in NU.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2014
  9. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Eh That's not so true of NU Walls, Hippo can Whirlwind, Vaporeon can Roar, Jellicent is Ghost type and can Taunt, Chesnaught has Wood Hammer and Leech Seed, Lanturn has Volt Switch etc. Obviosuly there's still a bunch it can trap, namely Poison types like Weezing and Vileplume, however NU is a very offensive meta and it can't trap enough Walls to justify moving up for now imo.

    Thing is Stoutland with Sand support just is that good, outspeeding the whole tier and decimating them with Choice Banded Returns, especially offensive teams. The only reason it isn't higher is because obviously Sand isn't always up. Outside of Sand its still a good CB user too.

    Not opposed to Ursaring moving, I've used Quick Feet with SD to pretty great effect.
     
  10. Incon

    Incon I feel incapable of seeing the end.

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    Hi friends, sorry for my lack of activity in this thread. I've been on vacation for the past week but am now back in action. I've moved a few things around based on some suggestions:

    - Ursaring has been moved up to B-
    - Gourgeist-XL placed in B-
    - Dusknoir placed in C+
    - Stunfisk placed in C+
    - Probopass placed in C
    - Raichu placed in C-

    Would like some more discussion/suggestions on everything else before giving it a place. Keep 'em coming!
     
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  11. Proof

    Proof Well-Known Member

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    Granbull isn't listed which i'm assuming is a mistake unless you guys really think it doesn't deserve a ranking. Also I want to post about Magneton for S, so I'll edit it into this post when I have the time. I say Granbull can go anywhere from B to A-. Being the best counter to almost every fighting type in the tier, and probably the only hard-counter to Sawk, Granbull has a particular niche. Also, although its bulk is seemingly decent, with intimidate its defense is boosted, making it very bulky. Granbull is one of the only defensive fairies, and the access to super fang, thunder wave, earthquake, play rough, heal bell, and toxic is nice. Also, even with 0 attack EVs, a play rough coming from a base 120 attack is going to hurt most pokemon.

    Okay, disregarding that whole post since Granbull is apparently LU even though I never see it, I think Magneton should be risen to S-rank. Magneton is one of the most dominant pokemon in NU, and with good reason. It has the most resistances in the game, and its typing is fantastic offensively, as well. With Flash Cannon/Thunderbolt/Hp grass, Magneton hits just about everything in NU-- falling short only of bulky electric types such as eelektross. Even opposing Magneton and Heliolisk are easily 2hko'd by specs tbolt, and taking a hefty chunk from an analytic-boosted tbolt. With hp grass, Magneton can nail Seismitoad, Quagsire, and Gastrodon, and is the best for coverage. Since there aren't many notable steel-types to trap, Analytic or sturdy are your best options for abilities. Analytic hammers pokemon that outspeed Magneton and pokemon switching in, and sturdy lets it tank a hit from Delphox, Sawk, or Pyroar, and KO in return. Magneton can also run an eviolite attacker set, to capitalize on its defensive typing and analytic. Finally, Magneton can run a choice scarf to outrun certain threats. Since Durant left the tier, and there are no notable fast steel-types to check, I believe this set is outclassed by Jolteon, but it's very commonly ran. Magneton also has a note-worthy ability to run a specially defensive rest-talk set, which helps for special attackers like porygon-z, and isn't that bad. Mainly, Magneton is one of those stable pokemon that can find room on almost any team, and should be moved up to S-rank.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2014
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  12. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    You'd think the LUTL would know Granbull is LU wouldn't you, you are forgiven though. This time.

    Also you better not mention that trash Sturdy Specs set anywhere in your Magneton post.
     
  13. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    I'm thinking Sawk needs to move up in the world, at least to A-, its damage output is as nuts as it ever was and it finds even fewer counters than ever because it has access to such a strong Knock Off. Nothing at all switches in on Banded Sawk and doesn't feel it, half the time even if you resist what you came in on. It has ample coverage to hit any angle and two usable abilities, one of which stops Weezing shitting on it. Its speed tier isn't amazing as offensive Pokémon go but it's not bad, it's faster than a lot of things it wants to be, like Gallade. It lacks something like SD that Toxicroak possesses but it's far from needing it to be an A- tier Pokémon imo.
    It can also run a competent Scarf set.
    It's a bit of a one-trick-pony. But that trick is more than effective even when you know it's coming.
     
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  14. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I think Zangoose should be moved up to A. It takes the best parts of Ursaring and Swellow - it has better speed than Ursaring, more power than Swellow and unlike the bird it can actually harm rock and steel types thanks to Close Combat. It doesn't need much support either: Stealth Rock alone is often enough to let it 2HKO everything bar 252/252 + Spiritomb. Its good speed, great power after the orb's activation and perfect neutral coverage between Facade, Close Combat and Knock Off make it a superb wallbreaker, easily worthy of the A Rank. It can also sweep with Swords Dance. Hell if a Pokémon which is only worth using on a Sandstorm team can be there I don't see why Zangoose can't.
     
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  15. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Removed Delphox because it's banned.
    Not agreeing with Zangoose moving up, it really does hit hard but things like Steelix and Rhydon still stop it fairly well. Also it wears itself down /very/ quickly, especially with the prevalence of Hippo sand and isn't going to be switching in on any attack that's not a ghost move. I might concede it moving to B+ but not A ranks imo.

    Thinking Spiritomb could move to mid-A. It had a wide range of sets, Band, Blackglasses, CroTomb, Defensive W-o-W etc that all perform exceedingly well. It fits on a whole lot of teams with only minor support and "beats" a lot of common threats. (most every other ghost, Toxicroak (if W-o-W or Foul Play), Gallade, Sigy)
     
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  16. just2bquiet

    just2bquiet Member

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    @Weavile Both Steelix and Rhydon are very close to being 2HKO'd by Close combat(without hazards), and thats with 252hp + defense which they typically don't want to/do run. Hippo is cleanly 2HKO'd.

    Zangoose is best used as a wallbreaker and so the poison damage doesn't really matter because he will in most cases already have done his job before going down. There is nothing in the tier barring max defense Spiritomb that can afford to switch in freely or comfortably, especially with rocks or spikes up, which is why I believe he deserves a bump up to A-rank.
     
  17. Proof

    Proof Well-Known Member

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    @just2bquiet These pokemon are still all switch-ins to Zangoose, due to toxic orb needing an extra turn to be activated. Zangoose has to wait a turn for the powerful attacks, and isn't bulky enough to tank a hit beforehand. On top of this, it's easily worn down throughout the match by its own toxic damage. After only 3 turns, over a third of its HP will be lost from toxic damage. Every pokemon that runs protect, whether or not it beats zangoose, will easily take at least half of Zangoose's health just from stalling it out. And, although Zangoose's movepool is great with the gen 6 power boost in knock off, it can't run swords dance to bypass one of these moves, and its quick attack won't be able to sweep teams without the boost in attack.
     
  18. just2bquiet

    just2bquiet Member

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    @Proof Your first point is good, toxic orb needing a turn to activate is solved by bringing him in with a Volt switch/u-turn, doubling, or simply scaring something out. It is Zangoose's only flaw from a wallbreaking point of view, which is how he should be used ideally. His bulk is irrelevant because he outspeeds every wall in the tier and is capable of 2HKO'ing nearly everything in the tier with good prediction. Rhydon has a 59% chance to get 2HKOd after spikes so its a very shaky switch-in IMO. This leaves only Max Defense Spiritomb as a safe switch-in/counter, who takes ~40 from a Knock Off.

    Think I covered the rest in my other post but yeah he is really the definition of A-rank, generally always performing well but craves for volt-turn support in order to be consistent at what he does. Quick attack is also nice and can pick off weakened mons in the late-game or revengekill frail stuff.
     
  19. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Whilst Zangoose is good, the fact it is frail and generally needs support from volt turn to activate its Toxic Orb makes me hesitant. Also the fact that pivoting and Protect scouting can leave Zangoose worn down very easily by its Toxic Orb. And whilst it does have the tools to 2hko almost the whole tier, it needs to predict correctly or risk being forced out or worn down further by taking extra turns of Poison damage to take things down. On paper I can see it, but in practice Zangoose isn't as effective. It will still be considered for now though.
     
  20. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    I think Druddigon deserves S.
    Banded Outrage alone is worth the A+ spot, it's obscenely powerful. But that's not all Druddigon does, it runs successful bulky support-y sets, Sheer Force LO sets, and so on. It doesn't require that much team Support to pull off any of its sets. Banded most of all has "checks" that are rapidly worn down or die if out-predicted by Druddigon alone. I think it pretty well fits the S tier definition.
     
  21. Trakyan

    Trakyan Member

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    I think hariyama should move up(A-? B+?), hariyama carries the ability to 2HKO (sheer force LO, gutsorb is for trolls) anything in the tier and has respectable bulk while it can require some prediction/u turn if you want to use it in a long match(or it plays a more central role)

    and armaldo (to B/B+) also deserves to move up a spot imo. He has good bulk and attack (125 base) with good stab moves. His main selling point is probably access to rocks and spin on the same poke (torkoal is the other pokemon with this) but he can be used just for one of those two as he's a good tank, his typing is also pretty good, giving him a neutrality to grass and ground(lets him do his job vs vileplume, amonguss etc) and a resistance to normal (kanga, lickilicky etc) while most steel types (bronzong and co.) cant hurt him even with gyro ball which makes him very useful against stall or bulky offense when given proper support or teammates. He does a number against stall as he can spread knock off to remove items and can pose an offensive threat as well as just spinning/SRing.

    Also primape to B+, it's probably the best scarfer in the tier (u turn, rock resistance, powerful and accurate stab in CC) which makes it a good revenger killer and cleaner, defiant also discourages the likes of hitmontop from switching in and potential defoggers (defog is dum). Sure he's frail but his typing is kind with the resistances to things like suckerpunch.

    Also vileplume deserves a spot above amonguss or at the very least equal to imo. It has a considerably better special attack (which lets it present a moderate threat to offensive pokemon looking for a free switch/set up etc) and access to aromatherapy which imo is more important than a sleep move due tot he nerf this gen and the speed tier it lies in is actually considerably better than amongus', allowing it to outspeed bronzong, druddigon, amonguss, armaldo and tie with or outspeed (with some speed creep) other base 50 speeders which litter the tier (which can be crucial, with the likes of eelektross running flamethrower etc)

    Other than that clauncher should move up to somewhere in B tier imo, it is fast enough, and has reasonably good bulk for an offensive pokemon specs sets threaten just about everything with a 2HKO/OHKO with dark pulse/water pulse/ice beam and it has u turn to scout checks.

    Perhaps bronzong move down a spot or two? I just find it to be fodder for things like wishpass, set up etc....

    I also wanna say Lapras is best water type in the meta but no one else will agree (even though it is, vappy die in a hole)
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2014
  22. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Aurorus down to C or C-, to say it "performs its job with proper team support" is certainly not a definition of this mon. It has an atrocious typing, bad speed tier, mediocre SpAtk and worse Att and "ok" bulk considering its rock weakness and lack of Recovery even ignoring that it's weak to basically everything. Lapras and Regice are superior ice types and even Articuno is more useful.

    Garbodor I think should move up to middle B or B-, it has respectable bulk with a useful typing, its attack isn't big but its big enough, more importantly it makes a great Spiker, Aftermath is cool too.

    Dusknoir is maybe a B-, it's a lot fatter than people seem to realise and it hits hard enough for what it does and the coverage it has. Along with W-o-W as a threat it can create a lot of opportunities for itself.

    Wanting to move Mesprit up to B, it's a powerful mon with a good set of stats and an amazing move pool (if wanting for Nasty Plot), it can be a threat as a physical attacker, special attacker, CM, Trick Scarf, Healing Wish support and more.

    Still thinking Sawk needs to move up to at least B+, and Primeape too, they're both great fighting types, Primeape can tear through teams with a band if it gets a Defiant boost or with a Scarf and the same, with U-Turn to boot, and I've already mentioned Sawk.

    I'm agreeing with Trak regarding Vileplume and Amoonguss, I'm thinking they could switch places.

    Not sure about Zong, B definition probably does fit it better, but what it does it does do very well, it puts a stop to a whole load of offensive mon like Cinccino more effectively than most.

    I like Hari but I think it's good where it is atm. It has its share of flaws and needs good support to make it work well.

    Lapras I don't think is as good as you think, but I do think it could move up to C+ or /maybe/ B-. It's not bad, it has a few nice things going for it.

    I don't know about Armaldo, C+ or B- seems like a good place to me and it's in C+ already. Its typing really isn't good, it has some neat properties like being neutral to fighting but it really doesn't have the resistances it needs to be "good" as a spinner or defensive mon. As an attacker it's just outclassed by a a whole bunch of shit.
     
  23. Trakyan

    Trakyan Member

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    Lapras is a lot better than you give it credit for, pair it with a spinner and it is a very durable pokemon capable of checking numerous physical and special attackers. Ice stab is actually a big perk over other waters.

    Armaldo's typing is a lot better than you give it credit for, although it is not the best defensive spinner it is an excellent tank and works very well against stall teams to help break them down. If the likes of quagsire and gurdurr can make B+ so can armaldo.
     
  24. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I think Porygon-Z should be in A:
    Good Speed, great Special Attack, 2 good abilities in Download and Adaptability, and a great movepool. With Choice Specs there's nothing in the tier it can't 2HKO. It can clear up late game with Agility, smash stall teams with Nasty Plot, or be a revenge killer with a Choice Scarf. It is held back by average bulk and a lack of resistances though, so A- would be where I'd put it personally.

    I'm really not sure Aururos deserves to be in B. Its stat distribution is all wrong - when your typing is as shit as that, going defensive is never going to work. Had it had stats similar to the likes of Archeops and Aerodactyl, it might have worked but as it stands it's just...not very good. Its only real niche is having a 104 powered Special STAB in Nature Power (Tri Attack). C+ Tops IMO.
     
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  25. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    Gothorita for B+ imo. You can force so many things into Struggle with Taunt + Rest it's not even funny. Hippowdon, Vaporeon, Amoonguss, Aromatisse, Shuckle, Bronzong, Hitmontop, Quagsire, Qwilfish, Seismitoad etc etc. If you need something to take down pesky walls for other sweepers, use Gothorita.

    Also, Sigilyph for A-. Cosmic Power + Stored Power beats everything except for Topah's ChestoRest Malamar and like Magneton. It also has cool Life Orb sets or even CM + 3 attacks.

    Scrafty is worthy of A. Screw Bulk Up, Dragon Dance Life Orb High Jump Kick with Moxie is the new meta. Pretty much cleans up most teams after a DD + a kill. The things it can't kill like Aromatisse/Amoonguss/Qwilfish are easy bait for Gothorita.

    Also screw Magneton.
     
  26. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Removed the risen mon (Banette, Shuckle, Chesnaught, Aroma)

    Added the drops as "untiered". My initial thoughts on their placement would be as follows.

    Goodra A+ : Great special tank, hits really hard checks a bunch of things like Typhlosion really nicely. However needs Wish or Healing Wish to really have a lasting presence if not using a Rest set, dislikes hazard stacking a lot despite not being weak to it, especially choice or Avest sets.
    Noivern B+ : Stellar speed tier, reasonable special attack, but weakness to rocks and a reliance on either Hurricane or Dmeteor to deal real damage is unfortunate.
    Granbull B or B+ : It's strong and it's physically kind of fat but it lacks non-rest recovery, it is outdone as a cleric by Lickylicky and Vileplume since both of them can sustain themselves. The dragon counter factor is nice but it takes so much from all the other attacks that dragons can throw and can't heal it off without Wish support.
    Milotic A+ or S : It's seriously a fat-ass motherfucker. Specially defensive sets check every special attacker that isn't a Specs or LO Electric type while physically defensive sets (Rest talk op) are almost as stable. It's by far the best user of Haze, it has a Phasing move in Dragon tail. Isn't offensively incompetent either.

    Gonna have to use Rotoms first.
     
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  27. Trakyan

    Trakyan Member

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    i agree with weavile on the drops, except maybe goodra, A- or B+ seems appropriate for me. I just find it's stat distribution kind of awkward and its lack of recovery hindering its ability as a special wall or something (plus without investment it isnt paritcularly strong)

    As for the rotoms I'm thinking around B for rotom H
    rotom C maybe somewhere around C due to the presence of grass types in the tier.
     
  28. Proof

    Proof Well-Known Member

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    just restating this post since it's still relevant, I still think Magneton should go to S-rank, and if not, I want at least a reason. As for granbull, it isn't LU anymore, and I'm thinking B+ because of the reasons stated above.

    Also, Porygon-z should be moved to at least A rank in my opinion. 140 base special attack along with adaptability tri-attack is enough on its own to shred through teams. Put specs on it and it becomes an effective wall-breaker that can trick away its specs when necessary. Scarfed p-z can rip offensive teams apart just by clicking tri attack, and nasty plot/agility porygon-z can set up on both types of teams, and proceed to hit hard with silk scarf-boosted hits.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2014
  29. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    My thoughts on the new drops:

    - Goodra

    A+ (possibly S) - Great special tank, slap on a Choice Specs, click Draco Meteor and watch stuff die. Fire Blast and Draco Meteor alone 2HKO most of the tier and are resisted only by Carbink. This frees up the remaining 2 slots for whatever you want. I prefer Thunderbolt and Sludge Bomb, for Milotic and fairies respectively.

    - Noivern

    B - A good fast attacker, it's probably best used to demolish frail offensive Pokémon as it lacks the power to break through walls. I had the best results with a Roost + 3 attacks set consisting of Draco Meteor, Boomburst, Flamethrower and Roost.

    - Milotic

    S rank. Reliable recovery, phazing, great bulk and even a solid special attack make it the best bulky Water in NU. I've even seen it using a Life Orb + 3 attacks set to good effect.

    - Ditto

    C+ - Great revenge killer of fast sweepers, but struggles with bulky sweepers like Bulk Up Scrafty and Cosmic Power Sigilyph. Only as good as the Pokémon it's imitating, so for me it's C.

    - Granbull

    A- - Stops most physically inclined Fighting types cold, hits quite hard and has a solid movepool

    - Rotom-C

    B- - Can beat most of NU's Water types, that's got to count for something. I like using it as a paralysis spreader, since Ground and Electric types pretty much never switch in

    - Rotom-H

    A- - If you're looking for a Specially inclined Fire type to fill the hole Delphox left in our hearts, Rotom-H could fit the bill. Electric STAB gives it a niche over Typhlosion, as it can smack around Water types. Also great array of resistances.
     
  30. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Hi so I didn't have internet yesterday but realised I never closed this page. I found myself with nothing to do for a while so I decided I'd list every single change I would make to this list and briefly why.

    S
    [​IMG] Hippowdon
    [​IMG] Magneton (From A+, strong, bulky, well typed, multiple sets that you can't tell apart until you've taken the hit.)
    [​IMG] Porygon-Z (From B+, what the fuck was this thing doing in B+)

    A+
    [​IMG] Druddigon
    [​IMG] Milotic (From Unranked)
    [​IMG] Vaporeon (From A, very bulky, very useful, very annoying and somewhat rare support in the form of Wish and Heal Bell)
    [​IMG] Goodra (From Unranked)

    A
    [​IMG] Cinccino (From A-, great attacking power, marvelous speed tier, multiple potential sets, U-Turn, bit frail but I think it more than makes up for it)
    [​IMG] Feraligatr
    [​IMG] Froslass
    [​IMG] Gallade (From A+, I don't think this is of the standard of A+, Spiritomb and Hippo are prevelant, while the latter doesn't exactly hard counter the mediocre speed tier makes it not much of a sweeper, just a competent wallbreaker)
    [​IMG] Rotom-H (From Unranked)
    [​IMG] Spiritomb (From A-, checks a miriad of Pokémon, possesses a stern offensive presence and W-o-W, has a bunch of effective sets which function very differently)
    [​IMG] Virizion (From A+, Good but somewhat easy to wall as a sweeper (CM or SD) compared to something like Gallade or PZ)
    [​IMG] Xatu (From B+, such a good mon on so many teams. Kinda frail for what it does but has good enough offensive presence, movepool and ability to make up for it)


    A-
    [​IMG] Gothorita (From B, It's a better trapper than Dugtrio so it can't be lower than it. Traps many common defensive mon and sets up on them. It's Goth)
    [​IMG] Jellicent
    [​IMG] Jolteon
    [​IMG] Ninetales
    [​IMG] Rotom-C (From Unranked)
    [​IMG] Scrafty
    [​IMG] Seismitoad (From B+, great defensive typing and ability, gives it many opportunities to set up rocks or get a Knock Off or two, not to mention Scald and the ability to go physical or special defensive)
    [​IMG] Stoutland
    [​IMG] Venomoth (From B+, may lack Hurricane but it sets up far far easier than Vivillon does, also capable of TintedLens Specs and Sweeping)
    [​IMG] Vileplume (From B+, much bigger special attack and speed tier make it more useful than Amoonguss overall for anything but stall imo)
    [​IMG] Wobbuffet
    [​IMG]Smeargle (From nowhere, best Sticky Webber now, also it does everything Smeargle always did and does)

    B+
    [​IMG] Amoonguss (From A-, see Vileplume)
    [​IMG] Bronzong (From A-, great typing and defenses but lack of recovery really makes it struggle in practice)
    [​IMG] Drapion
    [​IMG] Dugtrio (From A-, it may have Arena trap but its stats are still garbage and there's not much on most defensive teams that it gets any milage out of Trapping)
    [​IMG] Eelektross (From B, a few great sets including the ever obnoxious as shit Acid Spray set. This thing can cause some nasty gambits with all its potential moves and ability to not be OHKOd by many things)
    [​IMG] Emboar (From B, massively powerful mon, it's somewhat slow but Sucker Punch helps with that against some mon. Has the power to break through a lot of walls with no prior damage.
    [​IMG] Fletchinder (From B-, it's far more potent of a sweeper than anyone gives it credit for, after a week or two using it it never finds itself dead weight against anything but the hardest stall.)
    [​IMG] Golbat (From B, definitely one of the best defensive Pokémon, great typing and stats with Eviolite. Also best Defogger)
    [​IMG] Gorebyss (From B, it's a SmashPasser)
    [​IMG] Gurdurr
    [​IMG] Granbull (From Unranked)
    [​IMG] Hitmontop
    [​IMG] Jynx (From A-, incredible frailty and predictable nature leave it somewhat lacking for an A rank mon)
    [​IMG] Mesprit (From C, many many sets, all of them are decent. Has a wide-ass movepool and is the best Healing Wisher in NU by leaps and bounds)
    [​IMG] Mismagius
    [​IMG] Noivern (From Unranked)
    [​IMG] Omastar
    [​IMG] Primeape (From B-, makes a great choice bander or scarfer, especially with defiant, nothing likes +2 Banded U-Turn, let alone CC)
    [​IMG] Qwilfish
    [​IMG] Sawk (From B, very powerful Band user and decent scarfer, good coverage with Knock Off and usable speed tier.)
    [​IMG] Sigilyph
    [​IMG] Shiftry (From B, best offensive defogger gotta count for something, great offensive presence too)
    [​IMG] Swellow
    [​IMG] Typhlosion
    [​IMG] Uxie (From B, never dies, great support movepool and passable SubCM user.)
    [​IMG] Vivillon (See Venomoth)
    [​IMG] Weezing

    B
    [​IMG] Accelgor (From B-, tears up a lot of offensive teams with an LO set, not bad as a spiker either)
    [​IMG] Bouffalant (From C-, what was this doing with Carbink???. Insanely powerful with decent bulk and 2 great abilities. Good movepool including SD and Pursuit.)
    [​IMG] Combusken
    [​IMG] Dragalge (From B-, good Tspiker and good Fire-type check. Very bulky and packs a good enough movepool)
    [​IMG] Ferroseed (From B-, it's mini ferrothorn, it does everything ferrothorn does, Spikes, Rocks, Leech Seed, wall a bunch of shit)
    [​IMG] Garbodor (From C, not outstanding in any aspect but its combination of typing, ability, movepool and reasonable all-round stats make it a good spiker/tspiker.)
    [​IMG] Gastrodon
    [​IMG] Golurk (From B-, it's so strong and its coverage is so good and its typing is so annoying,,,)
    [​IMG] Hariyama
    [​IMG] Heliolisk (From B+, it's fast and it's reasonably strong, has a niche over Jolteon in Surf and Dry Skin too. But its remarkable frailty means when it misses a KO on something (which it often does) it usually dies for it.)
    [​IMG] Hitmonchan
    [​IMG] Magmortar (From B-, Magmortar is powerful as all hell and has some fantastic coverage, falls short of beating SpDef Milotic and Goodra which is kind of a bummer but beyond that you don't really wall it.)
    [​IMG] Miltank
    [​IMG] Kangaskhan (From B+, it's kinda powerful but it's never beating things like Hippo or Vaporeon, it's just not strong enough and cannot set up anything beyond PuP which is one lone attack stat up at a time.)
    [​IMG] Klinklang (From B-, it's the god of BW2 NU and it's still decent now. It may not have the clean sweeps as easy as it used to but many offensive teams can still easily fall victim to it)
    [​IMG] Lickilicky (From B-, second best Wisher I guess?)
    [​IMG] Lilligant (From B-, it's not amazing but it's in a similar vein to Klinklang imo)
    [​IMG] Quagsire (From B+, I just think Seismitoad is better, but unaware is neat)
    [​IMG] Sceptile (From B+, I wanted to put this in B-, anything but Specs or a well played Sub LO is completely underwhelming)
    [​IMG] Rhydon
    [​IMG] Samurott (From B-, it's still very powerful, it still has great coverage and it can still go special or physical and create a dangerous gambit. Although it's outclassed as an SDer by Fera)
    [​IMG] Scyther
    [​IMG] Slurpuff (From B-, BD Slur is extremely dangerous and CM is a threat too. Also can use Wish)
    [​IMG] Steelix
    [​IMG] Trevenant
    [​IMG] Zangoose

    B-
    [​IMG] Ambipom
    [​IMG] Archeops (From B, it's frailty and ability really do hold it back with things like Hippo around, it is powerful though.)
    [​IMG] Clawitzer
    [​IMG] Cradilly
    [​IMG] Ditto (From Unranked)
    [​IMG] Dusknoir (From C+, I like Dusknoir a lot, it's a good bulky ghost and has a niche on Spiritomb with its decent physical attacking movepool)
    [​IMG] Exeggutor
    [​IMG] Gourgeist-XL
    [​IMG] Lanturn (From B, its lack of recovery always defines Lanturn's performance, outdone as a cleric by vaps and as a bulky water that doesn't care about Electric by Seismitoad)
    [​IMG] Leavanny (From C+, it's no longer completely outclassed by Shuckle, only Smeargle now)
    [​IMG] Liepard
    [​IMG] Pyroar (From B, it's strong and its normal STAB ignoring subs is neat, but it's frail and it loses to things like Milo and Vaporeon that Heliolisk doesn't)
    [​IMG] Rotom (From B, it's an ok ghost and has some neat qualities, but its defensive ineptitude lets it down a lot.)
    [​IMG] Regirock (From B, it's fat but in a Hippo ripe meta it's struggling for a niche or a function, especially with Rhydon around too.)
    [​IMG] Sandslash
    [​IMG] Skuntank
    [​IMG] Ursaring
    [​IMG] Victreebel
    [​IMG] Whimsicott (From C+, prankster Stun Spore and Leech Seed along with an annoying typing are really good qualities)

    C+
    [​IMG] Arbok (From C, Intimidate makes it a decent bulky poison type with all the perks that title entails)
    [​IMG] Armaldo
    [​IMG] Cacturne
    [​IMG] Chatot (From C, it's painfully strong with Nasty Plot and Boomburst, unfortunately very Frail so finding a setup can be hard.)
    [​IMG] Cryogonal (From B-, pursuit bait, use Hitmontop.)
    [​IMG] Electivire (From B-, it has a lot of competition as an Electric)
    [​IMG] Flareon
    [​IMG] Gogoat (From C-, it's actually really strong and surprisingly fat.)
    [​IMG] Golem
    [​IMG] Kecleon
    [​IMG] Kadabra (From C, it's extremely reliable and can use Encore to be an absolute asshole)
    [​IMG] Lapras (From C, rocks weakness is unfortunate but it's decently bulky and has a nice and huge movepool)
    [​IMG] Malamar (From C, it does one thing and it does it decently. Contrary Superpower makes up for its lacking stats fairly well.)
    [​IMG] Mantine
    [​IMG] Mr. Mime
    [​IMG] Muk
    [​IMG] Poliwrath
    [​IMG] Probopass
    [​IMG] Roselia
    [​IMG] Rotom-S
    [​IMG] Sneasel
    [​IMG] Togetic
    [​IMG] Tyrantrum (From C, it's super strong and has a decent movepool to use with DD. Shame it doesn't have Rock Head yet.)


    C
    [​IMG] Ariados (From C-, no longer outclassed by Shucke, Leavanny and Smeargle, now it's only Leavanny and Smeargle)
    [​IMG] Articuno (From C-, it's really fat, kinda fast and it's reasonably strong. Its rocks weakness is the only reason it's not B)
    [​IMG] Aurorus (From B-, this is not a B Pokémon, typing is ass, stats are mediocre)
    [​IMG] Avalugg
    [​IMG] Basculin (From C-, Adaptability makes it really strong and difficult to switch into if you don't have Vaporeon or Seismitoad)
    [​IMG] Camerupt (From C-, its typing has some cool qualities and its movepool is full of neat things)
    [​IMG] Carracosta (From C+, I'd rather use Omastar)
    [​IMG] Claydol (From C+, its a decent bulky spinner but that's literally all it can do, it has no offensive presence)
    [​IMG] Crustle (From C-, hey, spikes and rocks are spikes and rocks. Can also Shell Smash if you don't like good Shell Smashers)
    [​IMG] Dodrio
    [​IMG] Dusclops
    [​IMG] Kingler
    [​IMG] Linoone
    [​IMG] Marowak
    [​IMG] Ninjask (From C+, it's ninjask, the gimmick is wearing thin, it just doesn't work anymore)
    [​IMG] Pangoro (From C+, it is very strong but its bad speed and mediocre-bad defensive typing/stats aren't particularly appealing, especially since it lacks good abilities or boosting moves like Scrafty)
    [​IMG] Raichu (From C-, its fast and has coverage and Nasty Plot, it can't be bottom tier)
    [​IMG] Regice
    [​IMG] Sawsbuck
    [​IMG] Serperior
    [​IMG] Stunfisk (From C+, I love Stunfisk more than you do. Its typing may be unique but it's really rather terrible. Especially with Hippo, Milotic, Vaporeon, Virizion, Feraligatr, Vileplume, Dugtrio, Jynx and so on, it beats Magneton and Jolteon kinda well tho :^])
    [​IMG] Swoobat (From C+, since when did Swoobat become anything but utter shit?)
    [​IMG] Tangela (From C-, it's noticably better than all the other shit in C-)
    [​IMG] Torterra
    [​IMG] Volbeat (From C-, Tail Glow Pass gives it a niche over shit like Meowstic)

    C-
    [​IMG] Carbink
    [​IMG] Glaceon (From D, hey, it's really really powerful, even if it can't beat Milotic)
    [​IMG] Leafeon
    [​IMG] Meowstic (M) (From C+, its priority paralysis niche is covered better by Whimsicott or Leipard and it's outdone as a support psychic by Uxie and Mesprit)
    [​IMG] Pawniard (From C, its niche is very limited, its bulk isn't particularly impressive and its outdone by things like Drapion for Knock Off)
    [​IMG] Pelipper
    [​IMG] Relicanth
    [​IMG] Rotom-F (From C, now it's got 2 more Rotom formes to reduce its niche)
    [​IMG] Shedinja
    [​IMG] Simipour
    [​IMG] Swanna
    [​IMG] Torkoal (From nowhere, it's bad but it's one of two (and lord Pineco) NU mon that learns rocks and spin I guess.)
    [​IMG] Whirlipede (From C, I'd rather use Garbodor, Weezing or Drag for my Tspikes.)
    [​IMG] Zebstrika (From C, see Evire but worse)
    [​IMG] Zweilous


    Removals/Move to D
    [​IMG] Masquerain - From C, it's just completely outclassed by Vivillon and Venomoth. Like entirely.
    [​IMG] Frogadier - From C-, ok this is just bad.
    [​IMG] Barbaracle - From C-, Gorebyss, Huntail, Omastar, Carracosta not doing it for you? Then don't use a water type smasher)
    [​IMG] Vullaby - From C-, simply not good enough.

    Anything else I forgot to put in was an honest mistake. Probably means I'm fine with where it is.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2014
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  31. Proof

    Proof Well-Known Member

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    Agree with almost everything weavile said. Some I disagree with only a little bit, but the only three that I'd really argue for are Jynx, Vullaby, and Primeape. Jynx does what it does uniquely and very well, and I think its deserving of staying A-. Ice is one of the best offensive types in the game, coupled with a sleeping move, nasty plot, psychic STAB, and fighting- and grass-type coverage moves, Jynx is just perfect for the description of A-rank imo. It can run a sash nasty plot set, sub nasty plot, or simply run a choice scarf to give offensive teams trouble, outspeeding and OHKOing threats such as +1 lilligant. Jynx also has dry skin to allow it to freely set up using sub + np vs Vaporeon, Milotic, and almost any bulky water. Also, dry skin allows it to take out weakened feraligatr without fearing a sweep.

    Primeape is honestly pretty bad. Mostly it's completely outclassed by sawk, and the only reason primeape is any competition on teams for sawk, is because of defiant. U-turn is nice, but not nearly enough to make up for where it lacks in comparison to other fighting types, especially without knock off. Although defiant is nice, it's essentially a one-trick pony, and is still left walled by certain pokemon, particularly some of the best hazard-preventers (togetic walls at +2, xatu walls, sandslash takes 2 CCs and stops hazards). On top of that, primeape has trouble sweeping teams with just one of its moves, as there are multiple 4x resistances and some immunities to CC. I think, if anything, primeape should be lowered to C+.

    Finally, I think Vullaby is fine where it is. It's surprisingly bulky with eviolite, and the knock off + foul play combo is too good for it to be completely outclassed by togetic. I understand why it has significant flaws, but Vullaby still has enough going for it to stay C- imo.
     
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  32. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    I think ur right about Jynx. Given what you've said it does earn a place for anti-meta potential if nothing else, although I think "minor flaws" doesn't quite cover the problems Jynx can have but I guess that's what A minus is for.

    Don't really think Primeape is as bad as you think, the superior speed tier on a scarfer covers "threats like +1 Lilligant" and more notably scarf PZ (although not for long probably) and U-Turn really is a wonderful thing. Sawk is superior though so perhaps middle B or back to B-. I don't think dropping it to C+ is warranted personally.

    Vullaby I really don't care much about. I see what you mean with the niche in KO/Foul Play over Togetic (I don't think it quite qualifies to be a niche over Golbat tho,,,). I'm fine with not moving it or moving it tbh.
     
  33. Trakyan

    Trakyan Member

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    You seem to understand primape, it doesnt sweep teams. It cleans late game, when things are sufficiently weakened or vs offensive teams around mid game. But move of all it is there to revenge kill and grab momentum, which it doesnt much better than sawk. As a scarf user primape is much better than sawk, u turn is golden and his speed advantage is important, too. Defiant is just the icing on the cake, taking care of stickyweb offense, hitmontop and any unlucky bastard who got a def drop with crunch or something.

    Also, I'm still pushing for vileplume and amongus to swap places... The speed, satk stat advantages as well as aromatherapy make it superior imo, esp in a meta with as many scald, toxic and wilowisp users as there are now.

    Also, virizion shoul drop imo, idk why its so high..
    Maybe put bronzong down a peg I guess, and swap scrafty and hitmontop

    some stuff i think should move up but im not sure to where is
    bouffolant (Idk, but it shouldnt be so low)
    lapras (B+ at least. please)
    ariados (it's niche is pretty big)
    raichu (fast special attacking electric, it has focus miss and nasty plot as well as speed over electross. I'm thinking maybe B or somehting.)

    I mean, i'd rank all of them above probopass, mantine and stuff like that... lapras especially.

    The rest seems good
     
  34. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Made the changes in my previous post to the OP with a few exceptions;
    Primeape, Jynx, Lilligant, Vullaby and Masquerain stayed where they are.
    Raichu went to C+ not C
    And anything else I forgot.
    They're still up for argument like everything but nobody seemed to object and nothing was getting done n_n

    Trak. I know you love Lapras but it's definitely not B+ by any standard. B- maybe. But definitely no more.

    Ariados' niche is Tspikes and Web and it only has the bulk/speed to do one of the two. Smeargle does both. Leavanny does one better. Masquerain does one with added U-Turn and Intimidate. Garbodor, Dragal and Weezing do Tspikes thousands of times better.

    Raichu I quite like actually. I don't think C+ is a bad place for it but I can definitely see B- and maybe B.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2014
  35. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    PO Trainer Name:
    Afro Smash
    Vaporeon: A+ > A - I feel like it's slightly worse than Milotic simply due to the fact it requires both Wish and Protect to heal itself, limiting its moveslots. Also Marvel Scale > Water Absorb.

    Xatu: A > A-/B+ - Whilst Magic Bounce is very useful, Xatu really has lacklustre defensive stats and its Offensive sets are decent at best. Also it's pure Spiritomb bait, which most hazard stack teams carry not only to remove Xatu but also to block Spin. And some of the tiers more popular Stealth Rockers can punish it easily, such as Golem/Golurk/Seismitoad and then then Druddigon has Mold Breaker anyway.

    Gothorita: A- > B+ - Whilst it is effective at removing Walls, there's a fair few it can't beat and it can find itself being deadweight vs offense a bit too often to make A rank imo.

    Smeargle: A- > B+/B - Eh Smeargle has never really impressed me, it may be the only decent Sticky Web user in the tier, but it's shut down by Cincinno/Xatu, had its sleep move nerfed and the rare geo-pass will be irrelevant likely soon with Geomancy suspect in Ubers. Volt/Turn into a something that can absorb sleep is always an easy way to deal with it too.

    Amoonguss: B+ > A- - Vileplume is a better Special Attacker and Physical Wall, however it can never be overstated how useful Regenerator is, it makes Amoonguss a fantastic pivot. It also has better Special Defense, and since it gets Regenerator, it doesn't need to use up a slot for a healing move like Vileplume, allowing it to run a myriad of moves such as Foul Play/HP Fire/Stun Spore. Both have their adv and disadv and belong in the same rank imo. And 100% accurate Sleep move is still nice even in gen 6.

    I'll post on some more in the future.
     
  36. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    I can get behind the Vaps -> A.
    Seemed like a controversial issue which was better with a lot of people.
    Personally I think Milotic is marginally better because it can do more things. Vaps is limited to one set with 2/3 possible last moves.

    Xatu is more of a personal bane so I tend to overrate it. However Magic Bounce is completely unique in NU, nothing else performs its function at all. A- is definitely the lowest I'd concede putting it myself. Spiritomb is a big issue for it though, which given what you said about the teams Xatu helps most against almost always carrying Tomb. Although. A Life Orb set can threaten Tomb with Dazzle Gleam quite effectively. At best Spiritomb gets a 50/50 Sucker/Pursuit out of it if it's nailed on the switch, which would be the whole point.

    Goth I am unsure. Against offense it can find opportunities against things like Qwilfish and if worst comes to worst it can get in on something like Noivern or Goodra after a Dmeteor. Sometimes it will just be dead weight though. But when it does perform it's more or less 100% reliable in its role, which is something you can't say for many things at all and is rather a big deal.

    After using Smeargle some on the ladder I'm more or less agreeing with B+ for it. Sticky Web is by far its biggest niche, but being Smeargle it can do all sorts of shit if you're creative enough so I don't think lower than B+ is fair on it. Also Spore may have been nerfed but Dark Void is almost as good as Spore used to be. (Except without the retarded gen 5 sleep mechanics but it was good in Gens 3 and 4 too :^])

    I still think Vileplume is better than Amoonguss and it's that thought almost entirely that makes me think that Amoonguss belongs a tier lower. But I guess the definition of a tier is wide enough to put them in the same place really. So I don't mind them being in the same tier.
     
  37. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Suggesting moving:
    Mesprit to A: Mesprit is the most versatile pokemon in the tier and can fit onto almost any team. With great offensive and defensive stats of 80 hp and speed as well as 105 in the rest, it sports a great BST of 580. It backs up this BST with a great movepool as well which includes, but is not limited to: Stealth Rocks, Thunder Wave, Healing Wish, Trick, Trick Room, Sunny Day, Rain Dance, U-Turn, Psychic, Psyshock, Dazzling Gleam, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Grass Knot, Energy Ball, Shadow Ball, Zen Headbutt, Knock Off, Acrobatics, Ice Punch, Fire Punch, and Thunder Punch. Mesprit can run defensive sets, Scarf, Specs, Band, LO, and more. Because of this, you never know what set Mesprit will be running and thus what to switch in. You can try vaporeon/Hippo, but what if it's LO w/ Energy Ball or Grass Knot. Even Spiritomb isn't entirely safe if it runs into a dazzling gleam set. Choice Scarf and LO sets can utilize the best move in the game (Bias because I love the move) Healing Wish. Say you pop a Spiritomb on the switch with a Dazzling gleam and don't want to risk the pursuit/sicker punch mind games. You can cleave 60-70% of it's health off and heal up some threat that your opponent weakened or status'd.

    Golurk to B+: Stealth Rocks, good movepool, good bulk and attack, a setup option in rock polish, ability to successfully use Assault Vest, ghost typing, ground typing, what's not to love? Knock Off obviously hurt this pokemon, but it also helps in a way. 90% of PO is content just clicking Knock Off with their fighting types, especially if you have a ghost. You can play off this since they're forced to click knock off by switching into a pokemon that doesn't mind knock off (Virizion is a good partner to Golurk).

    Lanturn to B+: Lanturn is one of my favorite pokemon in NU because you can abuse absurd sets to incredible effect. When people have a Rotom -H and see your lanturn, they'll usually trick; however, lanturn can indeed use offensive sets such as AV, Specs, and even Scarf. This sounds ridiculous, but some of you (People I remember facing with offensive Lanturn: Traykan, Topah, Weavile, and I think Afro Smash) have faced my offensive lanturn and have witnessed how effective it can be. Lanturn is blessed with it's typing and access to volt switch. The only pokemon that can switch in get bopped by a water type move. On top of this, Lanturn is one of the very few non ground type pokemon that are immune to electric type attacks and is an amazing answer to Magneton. Lanturn can obviously also use it's regular bulky sets to wall pretty much every water/fire/electric/ice/steel type. Lanturn also has access to volt switch and heal bell to give it momentum and the ability to be a cleric.

    I'll fix this post up when I get home
     
  38. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    I wouldn't run defensive Mesprit when Uxie exists personally, unless you want a defensive HW user, which just seems weird. However I understand your point about Mesprit's versatility since I use it quite a lot. I am a big fan of most of its sets. That said its limitations are fairly apparent, it's frail without investment and similarly offensively weak without it too. 80/105/105 and 105/105 are not bad stat spreads but they're not tanking or OHKOing large amounts of anything without some investment. Its speed tier is also rather middling. Its defensive sets are eclipsed by Uxie though. I wouldn't mind A-, but I think A is too far personally.

    Virizion is a risky play because the smart player will click Ice Punch with their band Sawk if u got a Golurk and a Virizion :^]
    I don't really use Golurk an awful lot though so I'll refrain from comment.

    I hate Lanturn. As a Pokémon. But aside from that I think, while it has a well carved niche, that its use is still rather limited. As I said its lack of recovery often defines how it performs, its vulnerable to all sorts of hazards and even with specs isn't pushing past any serious walls that it can't hit Super Effective with STABs. Another that I don't mind moving up one tier, but not 2. B or B- is good for it imo.
     
  39. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Most of the time, Uxie does outclass Mesprit in terms of utilizing a defensive set; however, Mesprit does have a base 105 SpA vs Uxie's 75 SpA. This means that whilst Mesprit may not be able to take as many hits, it's able to kill them before they're able to attack you. At times, Uxie's SpA will let it become setup fodder where Mesprit would be able to break subs/outdamage their healing. But I agree defensive Mesprit is outclassed by offensive most of the time, I only brought it up because it is indeed an option. A- sounds reasonable, I'm fairly biased because I just love healing wish/lunar dance. I do disagree with the statement that it's weak without offensive investment and frail without defensive investment. It won't be hard walling anything if you're running an offensive set, but it's definitely able to take a punishing.

    You're right about Sawk using Ice Punch, I assumed that most, if not all, Sawks were running Poison Jab over it, especially since Granbull dropped. But Virizion isn't the only thing (just something that I'd thought of using), you can pair it up with something like Scrafty as well, but of course when you're talking about a core of pokemon, predictions come into play etc etc. My main point about Golurk is that it has the ability to dissuade them from spamming Close Combat/Drain Punch and it has stab EQ which is amazing.

    Lanturn does lack reliable recovery, but a resttalk set works reasonably well with moves like heal bell, volt switch, scald, and discharge. As to the offensive set, as you said it won't be breaking through walls without hitting them for super effective damage. Luckily, it's main function is that it's typing and movepool allows it to hit almost all of the walls on nu for super effective damage. The best special walls are things like Milotic, Vaporeon, Golbat, and Jellicent. Lanturn's stabs allow it to beat most of the special walls in the tier. The only things that it falls short of hitting are things like Ferroseed, Dragalge (Ice Beam does 42-50% to SpDef), Seismitoad, and Uxie. 3/4 of those have no reliable recovery and ferroseed is forced to rely on leech seed. I'd say if Granbull is a B+ mon for it's physical bulk, Lanturn does just as well on the special side. Lanturn also has the benefit of scald and heal bell. On top of all of this, Lanturn walls an S rank mon which is a feat in of itself.
     
  40. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Guys why is Piloswine not ranked.
    Literally wanting to put that shit in B tier right now.
    Crazy fat.
    2 weaknesses.
    Strong
    Rocks
    More fun than Hippo