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[Monotype] Genesect Suspect Discussion

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Side Metagames' started by sulcata, Aug 4, 2014.

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  1. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Discuss the possibility of banning Genesect from the Monotype metagame. Post intelligently based off of experience in the metagame. Posts based off theorymon risk forum infractions.

    Attempt to find the checks and counters (or lack thereof) for Genesect as well as its impact and power in the metagame. Do not simply say "it's broken" or "it's not broken". Back up your arguments on why you think it should or should not be banned.

    If a consensus is reached, the result will likely be implemented in the metagame. Happy suspecting.
     
  2. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    I am actually not quite sure how I feel about Genesect. I mostly play Showdown's mono ladder because it isn't so dead and Genesect is banned there so I never really come across it. A lot of the arguments from last year can be brought into light this year too as the new generation didn't shake monotype up too much and Gene still uses the same basic sets and coverage as last gen.

    I think the Steel nerf plays a bit of a role in this discussion because Gene no longer resists Sucker Punches and can't switch into Ghost/Dark mons so easily anymore. Gene still has that fantastic coverage that most Pokemon could only dream of having.
    Notable moves
    Special: Bug Buzz Thunderbolt, Flamethrower, Ice Beam, Flash Cannon, Psychic, Giga Drain, Dark Pulse, Hidden Power.
    Physical: U-Turn, X-Scissor, Iron Head, Blaze Kick, Extremespeed, Shadow Claw, Zen Headbutt, Selfdestruct.
    Primary sets are:
    Scarf, Band, Ebelt/LO, Shift Gear. Specs a possibility, but probably not something you want to use. Just like ever.

    I honestly think just getting some of the quality posts from last gen here would be cool, and then discussing Gene vs some of the newer mons like Talonflame and Fairy, and Aegislash. It just doesn't seem like much is new to this suspect.

    EDIT:
    This main concern with Genesect is that it is so difficult to prepare for. With monotype being well, one type, he can often to massive damage to a single type with the appropriate coverage move. I personally believe he should be used to path holes that the rest of the team doesn't cover well. For instance,Bug makes good use of Scarf Gene using Ice Beam and Thunderbolt to cover Flying, and Steel makes good use of Genesect with Psychic.

    If a team has trouble with Water, Gene can run Energy Ball/Giga Drain and becomes a top tier threat to Water teams. There are very VERY few reliable answers to Genesect that you can just slap on a team. Heatran is generally a good answer, as well as Rotom-H. The issue with this is that these mons aren't available for every type. You often have to deal with outspeeding it, which generally isn't as much of a problem as hitting it hard enough is, or taking a hit. Both things are relatively difficult to come by.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2014
  3. Slayer

    Slayer The Beast Incarnate

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    It's basically the same problem like in OU. You never know what set and moves it runs and with the right moves, it can cause trouble for almost every type.
    As already mentioned, only Heatran and possibly the rare Rotom-H can take on every possible set, but that's just 2 pokemon. Genesect will completely destry Grass, Dark and Psychic teams, since it can easily damage opposing mons with U-Turn and switch out, giving them no chance to even attack Genesect (assuming Genesect runs the scarf set, imo the best set in monotype).
    I think Genesect should be banned.
     
  4. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    I do agree with a lot of what's been said.

    Dark and Ghost resists being taken away increases Genesect's total checks. Pokes like Bisharp, Mega Mawile, Aegislash, and so on can do a decent job of checking Genesect (not sure about the calc but I think Aegislash KO's with Shadow Ball + Sneak Spooky Plate and I know it lives +1 Flamethrower from full). While they don't threaten to flat out OHKO, they do put Genesect at a low enough range to be revenged by other priority or done in by hazards.

    Genesect might have gotten a few more checks, but honestly its disturbing lack of counters still makes it broken. Essentially one can slap on just about any coverage move on Scarfsect and instantly gain an advantage at team matchup.

    Non-Scarf sets can be equally destructive. Choice Band's ability to revenge could be considered on-par or even better than Scarf's ability because of a nuclear powered x2.25 Extreme Speed and it's slightly awkward speed preventing it from revenging +1 Mence or something like that. Paired with Stealth Rock, CBsect has some serious potential to sweep or cripple important Pokemon with an even more powerful STAB U-Turn. Shift Gear sort of follows in the same boat, except it can change moves and hits harder with Life Orb at the cost of needing to set up. I still think overall Scarf Genesect is its most powerful set in Monotype, but the other two sets should not be underestimated (along with the Expert Belt/Douse Drive set which just demolishes the counters to its team).

    For almost any team there is a Genesect set that can screw it over completely, and it's usually not that niche of a set. Essentially it's just a matter of "What is my team weakest to?" and slapping on the appropriate move for an advantage. It's not healthy for teambuilding on either side due to how simple it makes it for one and how difficult it makes it for the other.

    Outside of teambuilding, the battles themselves also suffer. Assuming it has the right move to demolish a team, which 70% of the time it does just with the three beams for simplicity, it becomes a highly one-sided match. Genesect normally either deals a nice chunk of damage to a check and gains switch initiative, gets a KO with one of its coverage moves, or hits a check with the wrong move. If it hits the check with the wrong move, more often than not, it can fall back on a Steel team's diverse defensive typing and try again later (I haven't tried Bug but I imagine it would be played a little more offensively than this).

    On a side note, I don't think Genesect has much use for Psychic this gen. I tried it last gen mostly because I didn't have a Fighting immunity, and it worked pretty well. I guess if you want to build an Aegislash-less Steel team it'd be viable still, but eh. Also Genesect gets Explosion last I checked.
     
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  5. Raducan

    Raducan Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, the most potent quality of Genesect is definitely its versatility and effectiveness from the variety of sets it can run.

    Much like Drizzle (which was recently banned), Genesect certainly has its checks/counters, however, these checks/counters can be dealt with by certain sets or moves. Also, there is always an uncertain feeling when it comes to facing Genesect in battle. You're spending a good deal of time trying to guess what set it's running, let alone trying to counter it.

    The most reliable (and probably the most useful) counter to Genesect is Heatran, which can certainly be beaten with residual hazard/chip damage throughout the course of the battle; having to come in whenever Genesect is present. That being said, Heatran is only available with two types, being arguably the most important member of one type (Steel needs Fire Immunity!) simply because it has to come in so much throughout the course of the battle and with hazards up, it is certainly taxing on its longevity.

    Not only does Heatran get worn down, Genesect can also pack moves specifically for handling its counters. You could definitely run HP Ground if you need Heatran gone which would pave the way for Genesect to do some serious work in the battle. There's also Rotom-H, but on Fire, that gets screwed over by Stealth Rock (every time it comes in on Genesect) and on Electric, it's pretty much inferior to Rotom-W.
     
  6. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    I agree with everything that's been said already.

    The versatility of Genesect is what makes it threatening; players have a hard time figuring out which set it is running. Band/Scarf/Expert belt/Specs/LO sets are all very viable in the meta, although scarfed and banded sets are probably the best sets. It's this uncertainty when facing a Genesect what makes it extremely hard to counter.

    Specially defensive Heatran can reliably counter almost all variants of Genesect( albeit the rare douse drive techno blast variant) but with access to no recovery move except rest, it gets worn down by entry hazards. In general, Genesect has trouble handling mono-fire teams as they resist its stabs, so it has to revert to coverage moves to do any decent damage (Volcarona deserves special mention, resisting all its attacks except thunderbolt and can set up QD on it. It can also switch in on a predicted U-turn to burn it courtesy of Flame body).

    Aegislash can also 'check' Genesect, but takes heavy damage from a +1 Flamethrower before it can retaliate with Shadow ball+Shadow sneak combo. Dark and Ghost resists taken away means Genesect is vulnerable to priority Sucker punch from the likes of Bisharp and Mega Mawile, but they cannot afford to switch in on Genesect as they fear Flamethrower.

    Banded Genesect has a few more checks, but the astounding power of +1 banded Extremespeed makes it an even better revenge killer in certain scenarios. When coupled with entry hazards it can seriously dent opposing pokes with banded U-Turn. Aegislash and Heatran are perfect counters to this set too.

    So it only comes down to a handful of pokes that can counter or check Genesect, which can be dealt with team support. The effectiveness with which Genesect can act as a 'Hole Breaker' or 'Revenge Killer' makes it extremely dangerous . Add to that its unpredictability and we have a broken mon right there.
     
  7. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Nobody seems to be against this so, Genesect has now been banned in Monotype.
    (effective as soon as tiers update)
     
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