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Deoxys-S Suspect Discussion

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Discussion' started by MetalGross, Aug 5, 2014.

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  1. MetalGross

    MetalGross gems…

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    [​IMG]


    Discuss the possibility of Deoxys-S being banned from the XY OU tier. Use this thread to discuss Deoxys-S's effect on the metagame. Talk about the different sets it can use, good partners and potential checks/counters. State your opinion on whether you think Deoxys-S should be banned or if it should stay in the XY OU tier but make sure your posts are backed up by experience and knowledge. Anyone who makes post based on theorymon risks being infracted. This thread will be up for a minimum of two weeks.

    Important notes:
    -Stay on topic.
    -Post intelligently.
    -Make meaningful posts. If your post doesn't contain any content, it is prone to being deleted. For example, posts that agree/don't agree with a certain point without any justification or explanation.


    Also, for those who don't know yet, I'm the new OU tier leader.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2014
  2. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Well I shall get the party started then!


    Deoxys-S and its brother Deoxys-D is part of the famous DeoSharp combo we all know and hate/love/feel ambivalent towards. Deo-S has speed that's absurd enough to outspeed plenty of scarfers. Slap on a Focus Sash and you're very likely to get Stealth Rocks plus Spikes up on your opponent's side of the field before going down in a ball of flames, satisfied with a job well done. Scared of opposing Taunts? No worries, you can use Taunt or Magic Coat before them unless it's Prankster Taunt heading your way.

    But wait, there's more! For the price of only one Life Orb, you can now hit everything for solid damage and be all but guaranteed to outspeed your opponent, making for a most excellent revenge killer with the very decent move pool that includes Psycho Boost, Super Power, Ice Beam, Knock Off (fuck this move in particular), Fire Punch, Thunderbolt etc. etc. While it has poor bulk, no priority attacks bar Sucker Punches result in OHKO's (example calc:
    252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 177-208 (73.4 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), so you're almost guaranteed at least one attack from base 95 attack stats boosted by Life Orb, which combined with the speed makes it oh so great as a revenger.

    Don't go yet! With Light Clay equipped, you can also set up the fastest non-priority dual screens ever to be seen in the Pokémon world! This was popularized on Smogon after the nerf of Baton Pass chains that they did, and proved to be very successful, making Smogon nerf Baton Pass chains to the ground.


    Especially the first two sets are dangerous, as it is difficult to tell from team preview if Deoxys-S is intended as a hazard setter or the fastest attacker in the game. But combine all three and it is obvious that this legendary is too versatile and good at each respective role to stay in the tier.



    ban pls and ty.
     
    RudeStyle and Finchinator like this.
  3. MUMU

    MUMU Just a random Haxer nOOb

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    I wouldn't say it's broken for attack power (pretty low) or utility alone , but the fact that it can not only run both quite well ,making it somewhat unpredictable but can also run a hybrid of both,(support move +attacks) makes it nearly impossible to beat without specific pokemon/sets , considering psycho boost damage , threat of hazards, and knock off removing item at the most awkward times ,unlike the slow and offensivly weak defense form it can't be countered by support/set up attackers, although it should be noted that it has serious problem against aegislash, the most used pokemon,and is somewhat vulnerable to powerful bulky attackers, but otherwise, it has advantage against most other common pokemon. Personally I am on the fence on this,but I can tell it's a major threat.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2014
  4. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    Just copying from the other thread
    Why hasn't Deo-S been talked about more. I tried to get a convo going before and it obvious didn't hold. The tier leaders didn't pay much attention to it either. That thing is a cancer to the metagame. It has an unbelievable speed stat and good enough offenses and movepool to be threatening. It can also SpikeStack and Dual Screen lead ridiculously effectively. Seeing it in the team preview does not it any way help determine what kind of Deo you are facing as you can expect SpikeStack and it turns out to be something offensive. The ever-so-infamous DeoSharp combo is also cancerous with removing this thing would help alleviate.

    Killing it basically means you need priority or be able to live a hit. Of the 84 (correct me if I'm wrong here, but I should be pretty damn close) mons that can outspeed it while scarfed, 11 are Ubers, 6 are Mega's, 2 Speed Boost passers, 1 Meloetta-P, (right off the bat 20 that can't be used. 18 if you want to attack with those passers) 37 are just complete garbage or just not viable scarfed mons.
    Talonflame, Gengar, Greninja, Infernape, Latios and Keldeo are the only OU mons on the list of remaining 27 mons remotely viable mons to scarf in OU. This doesn't even take into account that most of these Pokemon don't even want to run Scarf. With that being said, the point I'm trying to get across is Deo-S is pretty damn hard to outspeed, and well, speed plays a huge factor in this game. If you can't outspeed it, beat it with priority right?
    252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 106-126 (43.9 - 52.2%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO
    +2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 211-250 (87.5 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
    252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 176-210 (73 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Spooky Plate Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 192-228 (79.3 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 160-189 (66.3 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 118-139 (48.9 - 57.6%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO
    252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 132-156 (54.7 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 130-154 (53.9 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 139-165 (57.6 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 80-95 (33.1 - 39.4%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO (BP does the same damage)
    252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 88-104 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (still no 2hko)
    Talonflame has amazing chances with LO. Band wins. Sucker Punch users also win, but the prediction games.
    In most of these situations Deo would needs to have gotten off multiple attacks or switched into multiple hazards in order to be 0hko'd so priority is not really the greatest answer. The more attacks it gets off the more dangerous it is.

    Priority isn't really a great way to deal with it unless boosted or as a way to just get damage off so it kills itself with Life Orb. The latter leaves Deo-S to continue to wreck havoc on your team. So the next best option is to tank hits and hit Deo back. Deo-S doesn't have the greatest bulk, but even Specs Keldeo's Scald leaves Deo alive more often than not. Deo-S has the ability to 2hko at worst a large portion of the metagame, and it's EV's can change the pokes that it can and can't beat. Its wide movepool means switching into is no joke either Notable moves include Psycho Boost, Ice Beam, Superpower, Hidden Power Fire, Knock Off, Shadow Ball (not as much as the others) and Fire Punch. There isn't much of anything that would like to switch in knowing it can carry any combination of the following moves. While true that it can't carry them all, there are 6 moves, and 5 coverage options in terms of typing. Deo also likes to play the hit and run game in OU where it forces some out/kills something and switches out. It has the power and the speed to be able to consistently do this. The only thing its missing is Regenerator.

    Deo-S is not the strongest, or bulkiest Pokemon in the tier, but it has to ability to be one of the most threatening offensive forces in the game with its stats and movepool. Offensively switching into it is a major issue because of the coverage it has, and defensively Deo becomes hard to hit because of the hit and run nature and blistering speed stat.

    Now this of course is only one set. Deo-S can be a Suicide Lead and stack hazards incredibly effectively. Because it has an insane speed stat and Focus Sash, it becomes damn near impossible to prevent it from getting 2 layers up. It is true than You can Defog/Spin these hazards away, but OU has the two most potent Defiant abusers in the game in Thundurus and Bisharp. This makes opponents think twice about Defogging as these two mons can EASILY mop up teams at +2. I typically frown upon discussing teammates in these discussions, but Spike Stack/Suicide Lead Deo-S is almost NEVER seen without one of these Mons waiting to abuse the opponents wanting hazards off of the field. And because of the Defog buff, a lot of teams go without spinners and instead opt for defoggers because it can't be blocked.

    Deo-S also runs a wicked Dual Screens set. With some of the fastest Screen setting in the game (pretty sure it's 2nd to Meowstic), Deo becomes a nice asset to offensive teams in a different way. Behind screens Deo-s bulk becomes significantly better and allows it to last longer than it otherwise would. Screen support is also great appreciated by set up sweepers as they can set up in situations they otherwise wouldn't be able to. Mons like Chari X become more threatening than they were before when you realize it has boosts and you have to beat it with your damage halved.

    I am no OU master, but I know that Deo-S is cancer to the metagame. With it's 3 main sets in consideration I believe that it has no place in the OU tier and would hope to see what others feel about it. It has access to Nasty Plot and Stallbreaking sets that it can use rather effectively with the right support, but in general, those 3 sets are enough grounds for me to think Deo-S needs to go.
    TLDR: Deo-S' insane speed stat means you are revenging it by something faster than Scarf Chomp which is a very, very small pool of Pokemon. Most of which would rather run a different item. The speed also makes it one of the best hazard leads and Dual Screeners in the game and it is near impossible to prevent 2 layers or both Screens. The offensive set has an incredible move pool that isn't safe to switch in, and decent attacking stats make it an excellent revenge killer as it hits with quite a punch. Its defenses, while not spectacular, help it live many of the priority moves used in OU (Check the spoiler inside the spoiler).
     
  5. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    faster mon on the game --> it will always set up a lay of hazards even tho sashless --> it can knock out bouncers thanks to its huge movepool

    also with that movepool it can run an offensive set (physical, special, mixed) that can outspeed every scarfed mon slower than garchomp -> that means u gotta have a good priority or a scarfed > 101 speed that isn't always possible, but surely a teambuilding restriction

    so it can deal with offense thx to speed, stalls are fucked up by taunt/mcoat/knockoff/hazards, also DeoSharp abuse of possible Defog (which u can taunt).

    tl;dr: ban
     
  6. Rage.

    Rage. [Hero] and [LGI]

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    [Hero]Zapdos.
    Imo (not only imo) Screens and LO make it broken. You don't know if the opp runs Screens / SR / Taunt or 2 Hazard with his bisharp. You don't even know if he runs any. That's what makes the difference between it and his bro D-O-D. Since the OP sais discuss potential checks and counters and good team partners, ima do so. I already mentioned Bisharp, abusing Defog which is uses to remove Screens and Hazards. Thundurus can work similar since it gets Defiant too. For the Screens set the team partners are, no the other way around. It is the optimal team partner for strong boosters that get revenged much harder. For instance, Keldeo doesn't come close to OHKOing MMawile. LandorusT and Hippowdon also don't kill with their SE hitting stab. CharizardX is a good example too. It can set up on many pokemon due to its great typing. DeoS grants a good Stealth Rock matchup with Taunt and own SR. Another merit of dual Screens is that the things led against it mostly 2HKO it. That isn't a problem, because so the following set-up sweeper gets good time to boost, not having to hard switch into his booster. As for the hazards lead a good partner is Aegislash, preventing the opp from spinning (Balloon keeps Drill in check). Good checks against the suicide version aren't many. There is Aegislash as a reliable one. Bisharp and Tyranitar can only dream of being a good answer to D-O-S since the hazard set looks like Superpower / Spikes / Taunt / SR. Magic Coat isn't used so there are some players that opt to run Taunt on their Thundurus-I. It's a good response to it and Baton Pass chains and that's about it. Yes celebi it can stop cm clef too but youre better running a real check to Clef together with Thundy, however lets stop discussing the viability of taunt since it's basically irrelevant. The problem in checking lead versions is that you don't know which kind of lead it is, i.e. DScr d-o-s turns Aegi into setup fodder using light screen. Now let's check the checks (you can't make a worse pun haha) to the offensive set, looking like

    Doom-Of-Speed (Deoxys-S) @ Life Orb
    Pressure
    Spread what you want, i recommend sp based with enough Speed to outspeed Scarf Chomp and Atk to kill regular Ttar.
    - Psycho Boost
    - Superpower
    - Ice Beam / Knock Off
    - HP Fire / Knock Off / Meteor Mash

    Any checks depend on which coverage it goes for. However MM is quite rare, considering this Clefable is a solid check. Assuming the standard anti-Greninja Clefable spread D-O-S won't 2HKO after dropping:

    252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 214-253 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after...... dumb calc it drops satk.

    HP Fire takes on Scizor, Ferrothorn and Mega Mawile. Knock Off deals with Lati and punches a nice hole into Aegi, being 39-47% on Max HP Aegislash (sucks but ehhhhh). Meteor Mash is a rare option to 2HKO Clefable. Ice Beam is required to RK Chomp and Nite, wait, it's only to hit Zapdos and Mandibuzz. And maybe Skarmory if the set doesn't run HP Fire already.

    252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 242-285 (74.6 - 87.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 274-324 (76.5 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Chomper tanks, true. But it won't switch in because it thinks that LO DeoS would run Ice Beam. Even if Chomp would know, it could just revenge after sacking a mon. So not a check. That leaves Clefable, Mawile, Scizor and Aegislash as switch-ins. Mew is viable too but takes a chunk from Knock, however after the item is removed it takes easily I think. 2lazy2calc. D-O-D takes the Hits easily too. Azumarill with AV does nicely too if it isn't catched by Knock Off on the switch. Then there are niche mons capable of checking Deo-s, being Sableye and Klefki. I don't think they are relevant forces in OU tho, so there are 7 checks to LO Deo-S. What happens to the rest of the tier? As Isa and Celebi. stated it doesn't die of OU's priorities except CB Talonflame and Sucker Punch Bisharp / Mawile (and Bandsciz is hardly relevant atm). Most pokes are slower except Scarf Terrak and Keldeo which are OHKOed on the switch. So Priority is leftover to check it. Running priority on all doesn't even help because it lives them. K wanted to say what happens to the remaining part of the metagame. It dies. Deoxys-S isn't even setup bait at -2 because it can switch out and revenge the +1 Spd Zard X that attempted to boost on it. Since checking is possible but very limited, and still mostly bases on facing not the right coverage move, combined with the Speed, the deadly nuke move, mixed potential and the unpredictability between rampaging directly or helping other members rampage make me think it is broken and i vote ban.

    /e an example what difference why screens are so good (Leipzig is Diggersby):

    The foe's Latios used Surf!
    It's super effective!
    Leipzig lost 164 HP! (52% of its health)
    The foe's Latios is hurt by its Life Orb!
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2014
  7. Lameflame

    Lameflame Active Member

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    Is it really worth it to lead off with DeoS if it's a LO variant? I could be totally off base here, but to me, 1) That's a waste of a much better hazard-lead you could be running, 2) It's a glorified Greninja with access to extreme speed and 3) I've honestly never seen it happen in my experience using DeoS and having it used against me.

    I know that seems very subjective and opinionated, but I say this because it seems kinda silly to talk about DeoS's unpredictability when, if you see it as a lead (or even as the 1st poke in team preview?) you should have an initial idea about what it's going to be running. Most of the DeoS hazard lead sets are something like SR, Spikes, Psycho Boost and some 4th move. Yes, that 4th move could be anything but that's not enough to say he's "unpredictable" in the same sense as, say, Genesect, MLuc or the Zards. I've found that Sash Breloom and other sash leads in general are a great answer to the hazard-lead set, as well as dark/ghosts like Bisharp and Aegislash. (Yes, DeoS could potentially run superpower for coverage against Bisharp but that's hardly fair to use against it considering a lot of pokemon run Superpower (Scizor, Thundurus, lead Swampert??) to beat potential checks and things like Ttar and Garchomp run things like Fire Blast, etc. as their 4th coverage move.)

    The LO attacker set is quite efficient at what it does and it isn't until you actually use/play against it in practice that you see how much bulk DeoS really does have. If DeoS is to be banned then I would put this as the make-or-break set for doing so, assuming it actually is too good for OU. Plenty of pokemon in this gen (and last gen too) packed way more raw power than base 95 SpA + Life Orb, so power isn't necessarily the issue although 317 is certainly decent. It's ability to outspeed scarf users and revenge kill is perhaps its strongest selling point, and with the somewhat expansive movepool it has you could make a reasonable argument that it can be tailor-made to revenge kill whatever your team has an issue with to an extent.

    This is just a minor point to end, but as for offensive pressure and the difficulty of defogging against DeoSharp, HO, etc., I'm still on the fence as to whether or not this is can be used against DeoS as a ban argument. I have used DeoSharp Hyper offensive teams and you can't brainlessly switch Bisharp or defiant Thundurus into every single [email protected], just as one example, because everyone knows what kind of team you're running and intelligent players can/will exploit that (Earthquake Latios, for example). Yes, prediction is a two way street, but when a heavy facet of a team/playstyle revolves around switching into defog to gain attack, don't pretend like it's easy or for free. So as far as this pertains to DeoS, getting hazards up efficiently is only as good as the player's skill level in maintaining those hazards on the field, otherwise you're playing 5 vs 6 where Rapid Spin and Defog are almost pseudo-OHKO moves vs suicide hazard leads.

    What puts me on the fence and unable to at this time say y/n for banning DeoS from OU is the LO attacker/revenge killer set. It's speed provides it with a revenge killing niche that few other pokemon in OU (Talon?) can really rival. If someone makes a strong argument about these potential sets then perhaps I'll be swayed towards ban.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2014
  8. Rage.

    Rage. [Hero] and [LGI]

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    [Hero]Zapdos.
    I didn't say that it's fully unpredictable until/if it's the lead. I meant to say that you can't predict it from the team preview. LO, screens and Hazards all fit on HO very well. If there is another potential good hazards setupper in the team, you don't know if it's 1/3 sets. One in the psuspects thread made a good example with Garchomp. Both Scarf Garchomp and LO DeoS are really good revenge killers. Just that DeoS has wallbreaking potential and Garchomp is way bulkier, being far away from getting OHKOed by Bisharp, Mawile and Talonflame. On the other hand both are good hazards setters. Garchomp being able to exert much pressure with the SD + Outrage set against HO, especially DeoD teams, while DeoS has spikes and taunt. So you must find out which of them performs which role in the team. The lead will mostly tell you, this is true. By the way: How is the position in the team preview somewhat relevant? The opponent can also just build around LO DeoS so he puts DeoS on the first slot. I accept that DeoS is in fact easy to anti-lead with sashloom and scizor. The other ones, nope. Even if Thundy has taunt DeoS switches out because Taunt is obvious in this case . It would just give you 2 hazards if it wouldn't run Taunt so no reason to lead then. Bisharp relies on Sucker Punch, meaning 2 layers. And it's not it "can" have SP for sharp. The best lead hazard set for DeoS is Spikes / SR / Taunt / Superpower, though it won't always go for it since 2 hazards are nice too. Furthermore yes it is a mindgame if you switch the defiant user into a well-pressuring defogger like Latios and Zapdos, I only stated Bisharp and Thundy as viable partners. I didn't even mention any further issue with the Hazards on themselves because DeoSharp/DeoThund just isn't the problem. The problem is that it can be screens and offensive too and it's not really obvious from the matchup, it can be obvious to be a lead, but combined with heavy boosters (mmaw mzardx etc) you still don't know if hazards or screens, even though you're right, it probably won't be offensive if the team isn't built like it would be. The different sets are the problem of the unpredictability that many people have. It isn't the last slot on the hazard lead.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2014
  9. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    Ha, and they said I was crazy for being scared of this thing dropping. Well, look what happened! >:D


    Okay, I'll describe Deoxys-S in one sentence that will sum it up almost entirely: Fuck this thing.

    That's it. Fuck this thing. There are no other words to describe it.

    It adds nothing of value to the metagame other than screwing over whatever it can however it wants, mainly because its stats are not balanced for this metagame. It's the fastest unboosted Pokemon in the game. THE GAME. And it isn't by a little either, 180 is ludicrous! That means it outspeeds literally everything even without max investment, meaning regardless of what you are, if you aren't boosted, it will always go first and seriously hurt you. Also, its other stats are very acceptable, housing a good 95 Attack and Special Attack as well as a passable 50/90/90 defenses. Oh, and by passable, I mean almost no priority move can OHKO it aside from Sucker Punch, which is a move that doesn't add any arguments to anything.


    And it's movepool. Oh my Jesus this thing's movepool. You thought Genesect was unpredictable and broken because of it? Versatile is a horrible understatement with this; it can do almost anything and almost all of them stupendously. Unpredictable sweeper? Got it. Hazards? Right here. Dual Screens? Fastest possible right in front of you. Trick? Quite possibly the best user in the game. Knock Off? Taunt? Stall? Status spreader? Dedicated check to almost anything you can think of in OU? Again, one of the best. Because of this, there is no 100% perfect run-of-the-mill counter if even check to this. Genesect had the catch that no matter what it ran, Heatran would always get the last laugh. Here, nothing can do anything to it unless they know the set inside out. You think it's easy? Let me tell you: it isn't close to easy.


    The reason this monstrosity dropped to OU was because of Defog removing the many hazards it can set up instantly, making the suicide lead set almost invalid. Also, seeing it was a Psychic type with a rather pointless ability, it didn't have a major basic advantage, especially with its seemingly-moderate stats aside from speed. Also, seeing new and there was a much stronger generation shift such as Talonflame everywhere with instant priority and Aegislash being a prick, it looked watered down now.

    I mention the above because these are most likely the anti-ban arguments that people will give to defend it.

    In that case, if your arguments are generally what I mentioned, scrap them; they're worthless. Those arguments are the reason why it's being suspected right now.

    The Defog buff is a pointless argument when you factor in that people often tech Bisharp etc with it, they can just reset hazards if need be, the suicide lead was dead before Gen 6 even took off, and, oh right, TAUNT. Pressure and Psychic type do not help it, but it doesn't hurt it any more. Those seemingly-moderate stats are actually damn good. The new metagame argument is dead now because the hype stage is gone and everyone and their dead grandmother knows how to deal with the basic new threats during this stage.

    Talonflame: Stealth Rock and Extremespeed. Aegislash: Shadow Ball, Dark Pulse, and Knock Off. Heatran: Superpower and Hidden Power Ground. Face it, no matter what you can think of, Deoxys-S can one-up it if it so chooses to.


    So again, fuck this thing. It has NO surefire go-to answer, NO balance with its stats and movepool, and NO positive effect to the metagame. Meaning, in short, it has NO fair reason to stay and I still cannot find any reason why it would be beneficial to not ban it. It's not a fair Pokemon, easy as that. Fuck this thing.

    Oh, did I mention that this one Pokemon that can do whatever you want it to do well and stop whatever you want it to stop efficiently only takes up one slot on your team? Yeah, ONE POKEMON can do almost whatever you want it to do, and very well at that. You know what that means? Let me tell you:
    It means that even if you did happen to have a Pokemon that could full-on counter the Deoxys-S set, you still have to deal with 5 other different Pokemon on the team too, most likely at least one that beats the counter head on, making the search for a perfect stop for any Deoxys-S set by definition IMPOSSIBLE.

    So what do we have here? The perfect definition of a single Pokemon that even if you tried, you can never stop from doing its job because there are so many variables that make it literally futile to stop in one go.



    Let this be a lesson for future generations not to drop a Pokemon just because something (Defog) nerfs it a little. Take everything into account next time before you assume something!

    Ban it and have it never come back.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2014
  10. Rage.

    Rage. [Hero] and [LGI]

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    I'm pro-ban too but this part is theorymon. Talonflame is dead after Espeed + Rocks + Recoil, true. But trying to give it Espeed makes it suffer from 4mss. Talonflame isn't hard to check by a team partner however. Also no one uses Sball/Dark Pulse, but Knock off is correct. Same goes for Heatran aka DeoS never has HP Ground.
     
  11. MUMU

    MUMU Just a random Haxer nOOb

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    Obviously it is getting over hyped now, but in any case, an Actual valid set containing

    +Speed Nature

    Life Orb

    1.An attack
    2.An attack / A Support Move
    3.An attack / A support Move
    4.A Support Move

    In practice is nearly impossible to truly hard counter , generally psycho boost is the best move for the first slot, knock off is preferred in the second/third slot for maximum disruption .Pure Dual screen is honestly not too much of an issue , the attack + support set is by far the strongest, and most unpredictable ,at times, even experienced players have considerable difficulty predicting the complete set just from analyzing the team on the team preview .
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2014
  12. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    Yeah, but the point is if it wants to stop something, it CAN stop something, no matter how silly it may be.

    Oh and I wasn't referring to move usage when I listed those, I just named moves that it had that were not garbage anywhere else (ESpeed is used to circumvent priority if needed)

    That point was badly worded on my part, but you still get the point I'm trying to make.




    So yeah as another tldr it can either do almost whatever you want or shut down half of the metagame without trying OR need of serious support. It has no place here!
     
  13. -Snow

    -Snow Well-Known Member

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    FINALLY.
    The versatility of Deo-S made it an huge stuff to face.
    Deo-S can be LO Lategamesweeper, LO Setter + 3 Atks, Taunt Spikes..... and his hard to understand what kind of set is using your oppo.
    In a extremely SLOW metagame like XY, a pokèmon with his speed base stat is too strong and for me deserve to be in Uber.
    His uncounterable, can use everything and his coverage is wonderful. If needed has also EXTREMESPEED, a priority move. Ice beam, fire punch, PSYCHO BOOST, Knock Off, Superpower, HP of some random type.....
    Also the Deo-Sharp core is overcentralizing for the metagame.
    Just look at a random ladder match and u'll see 7/10 deosharp.
    Vote? Ban, obv.
     
  14. Rage.

    Rage. [Hero] and [LGI]

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    >The first counter is Kecleon
    I won't even mention the usage of Kecleon in OU, isn't common at all. It also isn't that good in OU. To check Deoxys-S it would need AV and without life orb it sucks even harder. It isn't even a counter because Superpower and Knock Off dismantle it. So your Kecleon argument should imo be ignored.

    >Prankster Taunt
    So I'm supposed to lead Deo-S when my opponent runs Whimsicott / Sableye? I just won't do so. Plus you can't ensure that my Deo-S is a lead version.

    >Mandibuzz and Latias only fear Ice Beam and Thunderbolt
    Taunt.

    >The last thing is Magic Bounce users like Xatu, Espeon and Absol
    All three suck hard in OU.

    >Fire Punch does not damage Aegislash hard
    Knock Off. 39-46% against a max HP Aegi and then get Deo out of Aegi.

    Slowbro is a good check, unless some dumbass uses Thunderbolt Deo-S.

    >Weavile can sucker punch it out after Fake Out.
    It seems like you wouldn't know the set and Weavile's Movepool. Deoxys-S runs Life Orb on an offensive set, not sash. Weavile can't learn sucker punch.

    >solid mixed walls like dusclops
    Am I supposed to answer? I will do so. First of all, Dusclops isn't solid in a tier dominated by Talonflame, Aegislash, Bisharp, Thundurus, Keldeo, Charizard and many others that dgaf about it. Secondly Deo-S has Knock Off on its standard set.

    >Screens Deo-S isn't very common.
    That may be true, but you should know how good it is. It gives boosters a much easier time to live priorities and set up on strong attackers. It isn't the most common set, but part of what makes it broken.
     
  15. MUMU

    MUMU Just a random Haxer nOOb

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    Unfortunately Deoxys S can, as you can phrase it "win the tradeoff" against a good portion of the pokemon mentioned above depending on the set, while full attacker or support sets are easily manageable, hybrid set isn't.

    Kecleon: Takes considerable damage from superpower, although it can check it decently otherwise, remember though that Kecleon needs to use low power priority moves to win and that leaves it exposed to other things.

    Whimsicott: It takes decent amount of damage from it's attacks, in addition , it really dislike losing leftovers.

    Defoggers: Can clear the field later, but Given how common taunt is on deoxys, they can't switch in to counter.

    Slowbro: Can easily wall however if deoxys has spikes it will get considerable amount of hazards set up on it.

    Dusclops: Vulnerable to knock off , in addition , it can set up spikes on it .

    Weavile : Rather Unreliable, Focus Sash set beats it if both leads , otherwise can only switch in on psycho boost.
    Also it can't Learn Sucker Punch although I imagine knock off + Ice shard (if sash deo) will do the job nicely.


    Which leaves a rather small number of reliable way to beat it .


    Sableye: Forces it out , although it should be noted most sableye sets severly dislike losing leftovers to knock off.

    Aegislash: Shadow sneak can beat the somewhat rarer focus sash variant as well

    Mega Absol : Assuming it has sucker punch it should always win 1v1

    I am not entirely sure how it will fare against the psychic type magic bouncers, however I don't think they like being hit with life orb boosted knock off , even if it's from such low attack, mainly espeon since it lack bulk as well.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2014
  16. Rage.

    Rage. [Hero] and [LGI]

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    Weavile never runs Sash in OU. It needs Life Orb. Absol is shit in OU, it just gets outclassed outside of very predictably checking Deoxys-Suicide. Magic coat is shit on Deo-S just don't lead a suicide set if you see Sableye. Keldeo doesn't check Deo-S well. It is weak to Psycho Boost and deo gets Spikes + SR up unless scald burn.
     
  17. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    Mega Absol doesnt win 1v1 vs bulky deo-s setter (max hp max def impish w/superpower)
    252 Atk Mega Absol Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-S: 224-266 (73.6 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    which is the best evs spread for set cuz it still outspeeds everything not scarfed and win 1v1 vs bisharp/mega absol/greninja w/dark pulse
     
  18. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    @Hax all the time
    I think Deoxys-S is very hard to deal with.

    I hate employing Usage Statistics to prove a point, but it's only supportive here. Sableye is at approximately 3.1% ranked usage. I can guarantee you that a fair amount of that is sets like Foul Play+Sub+Confuse Ray, too, but that's not the point; the point is that Sableye is uncommon for a reason: it's a bad utility and walling Pokemon. Sableye cannot wall anything with its pitiful bulk and while priority wisp+taunt is a delightful niche, it's still incredibly weak to special attackers, cannot switch in against offensive teams, and it's just a plain mediocre OU Pokemon. Now, you're correct in saying that a well played Sableye shuts down hazard Deo-S, but it doesn't like switching into Offensive LO Ice Beam (252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sableye: 147-173 (48.3 - 56.9%) -- 37.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery - sdef sableye isn't threatened nearly as much), it still has to get in at the same time Deo-S does to immediately shut it down (if you see Sableye in Team Preview and have Deo-S, it's common sense to lead a special attacker like Keldeo, Landorus-I, Thundurus-I, Offensive Mega Venusaur, etc. who are all common on DeoSharp teams and then save Deo-S for a bit later while those Pokemon force Sableye out for now), and being that it's such an irrelevant Pokemon, it shouldn't be taken with too much value as a counter as it's generally not a good OU Pokemon for aforementioned reasons).

    Whimsicott does just what you say it does: annoys the opponent. It doesn't have any productive niche in OU and is a terrible Pokemon. It can wall any full support Deo-S, but it's still not noteworthy and gets sodomized by offensive Deo-S. Furthermore, this isn't of much help to the anti-ban side either, in my opinion.

    As for Defoggers, Bisharp and Thundurus with defiant are very common partners for Deo-S and abuse the Defiant boost given from Defogs. While that still doesn't always compensate for the hazards lost, it's still hard to get one off with the offensive intensity of Deo-S offensive teams and there's the chance that it'll backfire with a Defiant user, of course, making Defog a reasonable way of stopping hazards, but still not a full on counter that's unreliable.

    As for what you said on Mew, I don't know what viable Mew set uses Fake Out or Transform, but I digress. Excadrill with Rapid Spin is a reasonable check, but Cloyster isn't viable in XY OU (in my opinion) and if it was, it'd be as a Shell Smasher and not a Rapid Spinner. Next off, while Magic Bouncers do cause Deo-S trouble, Absol/Espeon/Xatu all lose to the standard attacking set (Superpower/KnockOff and Ice Beam hits Xatu, too) and last I checked Xatu was awful, Absol was subpar at best, and Espeon is abysmal outside of Baton Pass.

    Ok, I stopped reading this part on Kecleon here. Keckeon is absolutely abysmal in XY OU and the "protean priority counters" argument to change types and wall Deo-S is incredibly unreliable and prediction based. This isn't a counter, nor a check, nor noteworthy in any OU discussion.

    Since when did Greninja not run 3-4 special attacks per set and suddenly start using a myriad of priority moves like Shrunken that aren't even worthwhile to use.

    o_k

    Weavile doesn't learn Sucker Punch.

    Normal Gem Fake Out Hitmonlee isn't really viable and idk why you go out of your way to mention all these mediocre Pokemon.

    o_k

    You keep on mentioning Pokemon nobody uses and they aren't relevant to discussion.

    Dual Screen Deo-S may not be the most common variant, but it's at least more common than the things you've previously mentioned and is of relevance. Also, how does Baton Pass and Ditto have anything to do with this?

    Anyway, http://pokemon-online.eu/threads/xy-ou-potential-suspects-thread.22976/page-20#post-395900 and http://pokemon-online.eu/threads/xy-ou-potential-suspects-thread.22976/page-19#post-395162
    are two quality (more or less) posts on Deo-S that I generally agree with, but I'll sum up my own opinion briefly.

    Deo-S is pretty toxic for the metagame. It can set up hazards efficiently in most cases while alternatively being used as a mixed attacking force. I think that the support side of Deo-S is a bit more threatening and controversial than the offensive one, so I'll emphasize the fact that the hazard set gives offensive teams a huge advantage early game and it sets them up for success while the screens set gives hard-hitting sweepers an easier path to straight sweep or breakthrough teams - both of these are defining factors in why I believe Deo-S is broken.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2014
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  19. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    finch ur links are empty
     
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  20. MUMU

    MUMU Just a random Haxer nOOb

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    Actually ,Focus Sash Is Perfectly Viable on weavile , and is statistically also the most common item , Absol is decently viable as well, and has use outside deoxys S , there is no mention of keldeo anywhere on this thread so I don't know why you brought that up, unless I missed someone 's post or you read kecleon as Keldeo ?


    The real problem with deoxys S is not just difficulty in countering it , (although it has some very viable checks)

    The real problem is that it LIMITS TEAMBUILDING to the point where you have to run one of the pokemon mentioned or hope to get lucky with defog later (which doesn't happened very often against competent players).

    One of the main reason is that using bulky pokemon to out damge it results in hazards getting up very fast , at which point most of the common sweepers can run through entire teams with that damage added.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2014
  21. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    Teambuilding limit is a real bullshit tho I'm pro-ban cuz everything limits teambuilding, think at MegaPinsir, MegaCharizard X and Y, Aegislash, etc, when you are building you HAVE TO think: "How I can stop this mon?" It's logical, it's not a ban argument, it's just a "how to not lose" argument
     
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  22. Rage.

    Rage. [Hero] and [LGI]

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    Yes, I did read Kecleon wrong. Idc about statistics. Life Orb >>>>> Sash on Weavile. The sash usage is probably so high because not many good players use Weavile in OU. Absol isn't decently viable in OU. I can give you the list of which pokemon are just better sweepers. Let's start the list with Sucker Punch. Bisharp has a largely stronger one, can hit fairies for SE damage and MMawile is just bulky so it can grab some boosts, Absol nearly can't except against deo which runs either SP or doesn't get led against MAbsol. Mega Tyranitar or Scarf Tyranitar don't have priority, but they are better dark stab users too. Weavile arguably doesn't completely outclass. And the hazards aren't the problem about Deo-S, they are just a part of it. Deo-D isn't near as dangerous as Deo-S because of predictability.
     
  23. MUMU

    MUMU Just a random Haxer nOOb

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    The Difference is that many checks to MegaPinsir and Aegislash Are highly viable and used in any case , where the deo S checks forces you to run Pokemon and sets that you would normally not run , Personally I have seen people run magic coat and taunt on the most awkward pokemon just for Deoxys S , shows how much pressure it creates.

    And @Rage. Absol is good against a lot of offensive builds because it is extremely fast for a sucker punch user , and together with it's ability shuts down a considerable amount of pokemon. Mainly because of the situation the Magic Bounce And Sucker Punch creates . Although this isn't an Absol thread so I won't go more into this topic.

    Edit: @the post below this , it's more or less same thing , basically,run one of those or lose a pokemon and let hazards up. The main Point being , Deoxys S being banned is most likely going to be better for the metagame.

    @NidoTheKing shadow ball maybe ? At least I have seen it being used, Reliably hits psychic types and aegislash.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2014
  24. Rage.

    Rage. [Hero] and [LGI]

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    Deo-S doesn't force you to run things you would normally not run. It just kills a too big part of the metagame if it is offensive and can set up hazards and screens very efficiently. Checks and anti-leads are definitely viable in the metagame, just are they not enough because anything else dies or gets 2 hazards set up on. Deo-S' speed makes it have a huge advantage against a big part of the metagame, which isn't only incapable of switching into Deo-S, Deo-S can even come / lead against most of them and kill or set up hazards.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2014
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  25. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    I am in favor of banning Deoxys-S. It isn't overwhelmingly powerful, and isn't even one of the best Pokémon available in OU. However, its potential offensive pressure, which is heavily dependent on team matchup, causes imbalance. From a team-making standpoint, there are only a few things you can run to keep yourself safe from its offensive diversity, and fewer still that can actually stop it from setting up entry hazards. Because it can be so effective with so little support, and because there are so few things which can actually stop it from setting hazards, it is unhealthy for the tier. Defoging it directly will almost never work, since few Defogers can threaten Deoxys directly (save Mandibuzz and Latios) and Taunt can force them out of play without recovery. A competent user with Volt Switch / U-turn will get Deoxys into to play often enough to rack up a few hazards and constantly force switches. Again, Deoxys-S itself is mediocre at best, shut down solidly between Aegislash, Mawile, and some bulky Psychics, and susceptible to priority. However, considering the variety of its movepool, the overall scarcity of its checks, the subpar viability of Espeon/Xatu, its unmatchable speed in tandem with the second-fastest Taunt in OU, I believe Deo-S is ultimately hazardous for OU and should be banned.
     
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  26. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    considering that POCL, the most important PO tournament of the year, is about to start, and we so far have a 8 proban 2 fencesitters 0 antiban posters in the thread, could we get a fast decision on this? thank you for consideration
     
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  27. EJ27

    EJ27 New Member

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    I'm new here to the po forum but i have been using po since black and white. And since going through all the meta-game changes since then i have to say that deoxys is not as big of a problem as people go to make it. I see a few problems with others post, they discuss sets u would never ever see like a def invested deoxys come on man really. But my next point would be that you hardly see it. What its used on 3% of teams and when it is used its 99% of the time a lead set with a sash and some rocks and spikes and most i have encountered had taunt spikes rocks and pyscho boost. You can make anything sound real threatening when you say what it can do. for example its " extensive movepool" when like 6 moves are ever really used. I feel it is one of the easiest pokemon to predict, when u look at its team and deduce whether its other teammates can possibly run stones or just look at the team preview u can get more than a good idea of what its set would be barring the one leftover slot for a coverage move. All in all i dont believe it should be banned it just always seemed that people were always afraid to thing to do some guess work or take a chance when a pokemon can run different things well it becomes a problem, people want definitive counters and things to run only one good set so they can say yea i can switch this in here then 99% percent of the time its walled. IMO I dont believe it should be banned as it isnt seen nearly as enough compared to other suspects of the past and its not overwhelming.
     
  28. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    @EJ27

    It only uses 6 moves?

    Good sir:
    Knock Off, Psycho Boost, Ice Beam, Hidden Power, Extremespeed, Taunt, Recover, Superpower, Light Screen, Reflect, Stealth Rock, Spikes

    That's twice the amount of moves you listed and I'm sure I'm missing some.

    If the "too lazy to guess" argument were as valid as you make it, Mega Lucario and Genesect wouldn't be banned. The issue is twofold where it can do various things very well and checks/counters depend entirely on the set, so countering it is completely randomized. And as I said before, even if you did happen to have the right counter, after all of the effort of guessing what set it is, you have five more Pokemon to go, most likely having synergy with it.

    The point is that a player needs a go-to answer even if the pokemon can do various things. Arceus, for example, has Lugia and Giratina as go-to answers for the Normal forme. The difference with Arceus-Normal in Ubers and Deoxys-S in OU is that because Deoxys-S can do so much of anything and can spread to anywhere in the tier while Arceus-Normal can do anything but only 2-3 things outstandingly, Deoxys-S is much MUCH harder to stop at first because Arceus's counters are already generalized by its visible form (and Deoxys-S you find out the set during the battle and not before it).


    Finally, if the only sets you've seen Deoxys-S use are the suicide lead sets, you don't have enough experience with what it really CAN do. The lead set is practically dead due to team preview and meaty Defoggers that come in after. Either way, DeoSharp is downright cancer to OU as it is,
     
  29. Draciel

    Draciel Admin / Tier Overlord Server Owner Tour Director Admin / Tier Overlord Server Owner Tour Director

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    The versatility of Deoxys-S is what makes it so very threatening, and as it has been mentioned in this suspect discussion already, there is no certain way of handling it. If you guess wrong as to what set it's running, it can totally destroy you. There are mostly 2 variants:

    1. Support variants - This is the most common variant which can carry Stealth rock, Spikes, Taunt, Magic coat, Dual Screens and 1/2 attacking moves. It's almost guaranteed to set up at least two layers of hazards. Even Prankster taunt users can't stop it courtesy of Magic coat; even the dual-screen variant can set up screens with impunity.

    2. Offensive variants - With decent mixed attacking stats and exceptional movepool including Psycho boost/Superpower/Fire Punch/Knock Off/Ice beam/Thunderbolt, it can severely dent offensive teams with a Life Orb equipped. It literally has no counters.

    Now here's the thing, it's impossible to predict which set it's gonna run. Would-be counters for the support variant like Tyranitar/Scizor are annihilated by Superpower/HP fire respectively. By the time you actually figure out what set its running it's already too late; and when Deoxys-S is taken out, it would have done its job already; whether its stacking up hazards or sweeping offensive teams. Considering all these points I'll vote for a BAN too.
     
  30. Sinclair

    Sinclair Call me the Pokemon Demigod

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    After reviewing this discussion with MetalGross, we have decided that Deoxy-S is now banned from XY OU. Locking thread.
     
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