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[GSC] GSC OU Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by Isa, Aug 5, 2014.

  1. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    GSC OU Viability Ranking
    (credit to ZoroDark for format)

    Welcome to the GSC OU Viability Ranking! In case you're not familiar with the concept, we place Pokémon in certain ranks here, based on their impact on the tier as well as their general viability in the tier. This is an excellent help while teambuilding and it serves as a general outline of the tier.

    If you feel that a Pokémon is misplaced, feel free to make a post about it, after all that's what this thread is for. There's a couple of rules, though. First and foremost, make sure your arguments are clear. You may use usage statistics in your argument, but make sure your reasoning isn't entirely based on those. As always, be civil and don't get personal, otherwise you'll risk getting infracted.

    Pokémon are sorted into the respective categories based on how well they perform their roles.


    [​IMG]

    S Rank is reserved for Pokemon who are extremely threatening and impact the metagame in a major way. These Pokémon can either fulfill a variety of roles or are superlative in performing one task on a team.

    Snorlax Rank:
    [​IMG] Snorlax

    S:
    [​IMG]
    Zapdos
    [​IMG]Raikou


    [​IMG]

    A Rank Pokémon generally perform very well in the tier, but have some minor flaws that prevent them from fulfilling their roles consistently. Although threatening, they usually require a bit more team support than S-Rank Pokémon.

    A+
    [​IMG]Cloyster
    [​IMG]Skarmory
    [​IMG]Exeggutor
    [​IMG]Vaporeon

    A
    [​IMG]
    Tyranitar
    [​IMG]Steelix
    [​IMG]Nidoking
    [​IMG]Gengar
    [​IMG]Miltank

    A-
    [​IMG]Starmie
    [​IMG]Forretress
    [​IMG]Suicune
    [​IMG]Machamp
    [​IMG]Umbreon
    [​IMG]Marowak
    [​IMG]Misdreavus

    [​IMG]

    B Rank Pokémon usually have some sort of major flaw that prevents them from being a more common presence in the tier. However, they still are able to perform their roles very well with proper team support.

    B+
    [​IMG]Rhydon
    [​IMG]Heracross
    [​IMG]Dragonite

    B
    [​IMG]
    Smeargle
    [​IMG]Jolteon
    [​IMG]Espeon
    [​IMG]Porygon2
    [​IMG]Blissey

    B-
    [​IMG]Meganium
    [​IMG]Tentacruel
    [​IMG]Quagsire
    [​IMG] Kangaskhan
    [​IMG]Golem
    [​IMG]Charizard


    [​IMG]

    C Rank: C Rank Pokémon have notable niches in the metagame, but usually require significant support. These Pokémon face competition for their roles from the higher ranked Pokémon, but can still find use.


    [​IMG]Clefable
    [​IMG]Ampharos
    [​IMG]Muk
    [​IMG]Houndoom
    [​IMG]Alakazam

    Not complete. Offer your inputs!


    [​IMG]

    D Rank Pokémon either have an extremely small niche in the tier, or are generally outclassed by higher-ranked Pokémon in a majority of circumstances.

    Not yet added, offer input if it's worthwhile having a D rank and if so, what it would contain.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2015
  2. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    I feel like Tyranitar belongs in A more than A+. It can either be a mixed attacker (and not the best at that; Dragonite hits harder let alone Nidoking or Machamp) or a defensive/support mon using Roar+resists to wall and Pursuit to support (which makes it good, yes; however, there's not THAT many things it walls and Miltank's in A walling more things and providing Heal Bell to support).

    Heracross better than Rhydon? Almost every team brings either Zapdos or Skarm to the table, so it's a bump on a log offensively unless it runs the risky Reversal (which still won't get it past Zapdos), and its defensive coverage is relatively niche (Nidoking, Machamp if you RestTalk and it doesn't, maaaaybe Marowak in a pinch). Rhydon's a bit more dangerous on offense since Suicune and Miltank are less common, and it significantly improves a team's handling of all three S-tier mons.
     
  3. Jørgen

    Jørgen Sniper

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    S and A are fine. B could use work. Heracross and Dnite being lumped with Missy/Marowak/Umbreon feels wrong. The latter trio all define the metagame in some important way. Heracross and Dnite are decent Pokemon, but not metagame-defining in their roles.

    Quagsire should probably be added to B- before Golem and Kangaskhan are. Quag is a teammate with consistent defensive upside, thereby being worth using on a greater number of teams.

    There's a ton of things that are at least usable in GSC. If I listed everything here, D tier would blot out the sun. However, one thing definitely worth adding for its Egg-sniping powers is Houndoom.
     
  4. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    Heracross has a guaranteed 2HKO after Spikes on Marowak and nobody uses HP Flying. That's quite good. More importantly in my mind is the reliable chip damage you can force on to Skarmory with SToss which will result in a Rest before you can say DrumLax.
    Rhydon's weakness to HP Ice and Water is a real pain, as without real recovery and a spikes weakness you're gonna have issues switching in - Heracross doesn't have any common weaknesses and usually carries RestTalk, so it is much more long-lived. Giga Drain Exeggutor is a common sight which sponges Rhydon's attacks fairly well (HP Bug isn't a thing AFAIK, you want both Roar and Curse) and obviously sends Rhydon running again. Rhydon does contribute more defensively versus Snorlax, but versus the Electrics you're gonna be hard-pressed to switch in. I'd also argue that Heracross does just fine versus Raikou, especially Thunderbolt variants which fail to 3HKO (and Thunder has that high miss chance involved in the 3HKO) whereas Megahorn has a small chance of actually 2HKOing. Zapdos is a big pain for Heracross obviously, but at least Seismic Toss means it does something before switching out. Rhydon vs. Zapdos is a win for Rhydon if Rhydon doesn't have spikes on its side, but HP Ice damage is non-recoverable and Zapdos is very likely to get a Rest up after switching out.

    I wanna hear more opinions on TTar before moving it. It is one of my favorite Pokémon because of how unpredictable it is. Even if you advertise it early on as RSlide Roar Pursuit, your opponent is still in the dark about the fourth move and will have to tip-toe around the issue until then.

    That being said I do believe Jorgen has a lot of merit in his statement regarding B rank. I'll probably bump up Umby, Marowak and Missy to A-. Quagsire should also see a rise.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2014
  5. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    Eh, if they're running Miltank or Missy your SToss Hera needs some mad prediction skills. And if they're running Zapdos you are useless that game. Not to mention Gengar, though admittedly Gar isn't doing much back unless it Perish Traps.
     
  6. Jørgen

    Jørgen Sniper

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    Yeah, Heracross is walled by a whole lot more than Skarm, otherwise it'd be great. Another big problem is it doesn't proc a status with its attacks for when it is walled. Zapdos will paralyze things with Thunder, Hera just does straight damage forever. Hera has Reversal as a possible saving grace for its offensive potential, but it's ultimately a gimmick. Not so much because it's hard to work with something at 1hp, but more because it's hard to get to 1hp to begin with, and before 1hp it's kind of dead weight.

    (Also, I think the possible 3HKO on Suicune is a much more impressive damage calc to cite than the 2HKO on Marowak after Spikes. It's the only conventional neutral attack outside of Marowak Earthquake capable of doing so without crits or setup. )

    I'm uncertain about Ttar in A+. I inevitably compare it with Steelix, and both have pros and cons to make it a push between the two, yet they're separated by a partial tier. I guess the fact that a mixed set is an effective (albeit inconsistent) option for Ttar might give it a leg up, although in practice I don't know how real an option it is, considering I find it pretty difficult to fit mixed Tyranitar on a team. Mostly because, on top of the fact that Suicune could just come in and hardwall it, Ttar's Rock typing is kind of a liability (Water weakness, Ground weakness, no Thunder resist) if it isn't able to use it to counter Snorlax.
     
  7. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    I agree that 3HKOing Suicune is more impressive than 2HKOing Marowak, but Magic said that Heracross is a shaky check to Marowak which I don't really agree with and felt the need to retort.

    If you both agree, I'll put Tyranitar at the top of A rank then. It could move further down the A rank if that's what you wish, but I don't think it'll see A- status.
     
  8. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    Yeah I just don't feel Tyranitar has the same "wow" level as the A+ Pokemon. Top of A I'm perfectly fine with.

    I said Hera's iffy as a Wak counter because a) without Spikes you stand a decent chance of not 2HKOing, so it needs support to safely counter Wak, b) HP Flying, while rare, isn't actually *that* bad an option since it still hits Egg pretty hard (harder than Fire Blast) so its usefulness vs. Wak is solely predicated on its rarity.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2014
  9. Jørgen

    Jørgen Sniper

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    Heracross struggles with Marowak if you consider it a primary switch-in. A Marowak counter wants to be able to outspeed and OHKO from relatively high percents so it can still come in with some residual damage that might otherwise put it in +2 OHKO range. Or, it wants to be Skarmory to avoid being 2HKOed after a Swords Dance. Heracross does neither of these, although its Ground resist makes it more than competent as a second look.
     
  10. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    Just spotted this.
     
  11. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    Dropped TTar to top of A rank.
    Moved Umbreon, Marowak and Missy to bottom of A- rank.
    Rhydon now tops B+ rank instead of B.
    Quagsire moved to middle of B-.
    Added Houndoom to C rank (above Alakazam, because Zam sucks).

    A- rank is now very big. Do you guys think it is fine that way or should changes be made?
    Also should Jolteon get a raise from B to B+? I feel like he is slightly off at the moment.
     
  12. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    I'm a bit off topic but idk whatta post

    where I can see GSC Tier list if the tierlist page doesn't work? I mean this -> http://wiki.pokemon-online.eu/view/2nd_Gen_Tier_List
    ._. I tried to upload a GSC UU team and simulator said Ursaring is banned in UU ._.
     
  13. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    Uber
    Celebi
    Ho-Oh
    Lugia
    Mew
    Mewtwo

    OU
    Blissey
    Cloyster
    Dragonite
    Exeggutor
    Forretress
    Gengar
    Heracross
    Jolteon
    Machamp
    Marowak
    Miltank
    Misdreavus
    Nidoking
    Raikou
    Skarmory
    Snorlax
    Starmie
    Steelix
    Suicune
    Tyranitar
    Umbreon
    Vaporeon
    Zapdos


    BL
    Aerodactyl
    Alakazam
    Articuno
    Charizard
    Clefable
    Donphan
    Entei
    Espeon
    Golem
    Houndoom
    Jynx
    Kangaskhan
    Kingdra
    Lapras
    Meganium
    Moltres
    Muk
    Porygon2
    Rhydon
    Scizor
    Smeargle
    Tauros
    Tentacruel
    Typhlosion
    Ursaring
    Venusaur

    UU
    Ampharos
    Arcanine
    Bellossom
    Blastoise
    Chansey
    Crobat
    Dodrio
    Electabuzz
    Electrode
    Feraligatr
    Flareon
    Girafarig
    Gligar
    Golduck
    Granbull
    Gyarados
    Hitmonlee
    Hypno
    Jumpluff
    Kabutops
    Kadabra
    Lanturn
    Magmar
    Magneton
    Nidoqueen
    Ninetales
    Omastar
    Piloswine
    Pinsir
    Politoed
    Poliwrath
    Primeape
    Quagsire
    Qwilfish
    Raichu
    Sandslash
    Scyther
    Slowbro
    Slowking
    Victreebel
    Vileplume
    Weezing
    Wigglytuff

    NU
    Aipom
    Arbok
    Ariados
    Azumarill
    Beedrill
    Butterfree
    Corsola
    Delibird
    Dewgong
    Ditto
    Dugtrio
    Dunsparce
    Farfetch'd
    Fearow
    Furret
    Hitmonchan
    Hitmontop
    Kingler
    Ledian
    Lickitung
    Magcargo
    Mantine
    Mr. Mime
    Murkrow
    Noctowl
    Octillery
    Parasect
    Persian
    Pidgeot
    Rapidash
    Raticate
    Seaking
    Shuckle
    Sneasel
    Stantler
    Sudowoodo
    Sunflora
    Tangela
    Togetic
    Unown
    Venomoth
    Wobbuffet
    Xatu
    Yanma



    Read more: http://mount-silver.proboards.com/thread/9/gsc-tiers#ixzz3AxVUXydl


    GSC NU doesn't exist yet though!
     
    marcoasd and Cameltoed like this.
  14. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    wow so many BL why not put GSC BL as tier ?_?
     
  15. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    i think it is :o
     
  16. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    not in the server ;_;
     
  17. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    We should keep the tiers listed on the wiki the same as the tiers in the server. Otherwise we're being hypocrites.

    And yeah that BL's clearly an attempt at a balanced tier otherwise Dnite > Rhydon is ludicrous.
     
  18. borat

    borat Member

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    unless things have changed, bl had always been rejects of uu and ou. rejected from ou based on usage, rejected from uu based on power. either of these is legitimate criterion for a pokemon to fall under bl. the former is of course more flexible as usage rates are just a number and where that cutoff is is up to the players, but the latter isn't.

    these sub-tiers are really really hard to justify. why not drop it? or at least break it down into 2 instead of 3 sub-sections. the more specific you are, the less accurate you are.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2014
  19. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    It makes discussion more likely, and is more useful. I could see breaking down these into just two subgroups, but having Skarmory and Umbreon in the same tier isn't very accurate nor specific. I'm not gonna break it down into just one and I am very hesitant to make it into two subgroups. Even if it brings the risk of a faulty placement, it gives better ideas of what's good and what's not quite as good.
     
  20. borat

    borat Member

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    i'm pretty comfortable with A+ as it stands, but A/A- rub me the wrong way.

    all of b tier seem to be sorta interchangeable t0o. blissey vs hera? i like blissey -- a lot more consistency. smeargle imo does what he does (bp) better than anyone, which is more merit than kanga can claim (a shitty snorlax with roar).

    what's the reasoning behind golem being better than muk?

    ampharos might be too good for uu, but until someone shows me a viable team with ampharos, i don't even think he's situationally good. ok he has reflect, twave, fire punch, so what? clefable is situationally good, houndoom is situationally good, ampharos is situationally average. pokemon tier c should largely be offensive since everything above it is so god damn unkillable.
     
  21. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    this is a huge amount of merit

    vaporeon is a shitty suicune with growth
     
  22. borat

    borat Member

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    it isn't. because ursaring can do the same shit. granted, the other thing kanga does is sub.

    how many pokemon in the game have roar vs growth?

    moreover, the point is the BEST bp team in the game will have a smeargle on it. kanga only fits into tier 2 teams. the same deal with meganium, golem, porygon2, etc. smeargle occupies a unique niche, one that he does better than anything else ever. meganium, golem, kanga fall into the same boat; they're inferior versions of better pokemon, but it just so happens that even being inferior versions of something still makes them pretty good. you can nitpick and say "well meganium's grass and that's different", but the simple fact is people only use these pokemon because they're sick of using egg or miltank or something better. there's NOTHING better at agi passing than a smeargle. and bp teams are easily top tier teams, along with explosion and stall. nothing gimmicky here.

    the point isn't to attack how mediocre kanga is, but to address how horribly underrated smeargle is. easily B+/A-.

    espeon needs to be dropped lower too. show me a good espeon team and you've just changed the meta. espeon's in the same boat as kanga. against a very specific team (e.g. in kanga's case, one that relies on miltank + skarm to deal with cursers and little offense otherwise), it can do great things and single handedly pick apart a team, but it's all around pretty lackluster. being good against one team is very different [and a lot worse] than being good ON one team.

    also, jynx?

    edit: a big issue with this thread vs jorgen's with this is how you define your tiers. here's jorgen's a-tier criteria vs yours.


    you seem to be totally focused on some sort of "role fulfillment", compounded with some "flaw" in a pokemon to justify overall merit. the main thing i picked up from jorgen's criteria is flexibility. smeargle isn't that flexible (ironically). you can use it to spike or bell but it's utter shit at it.

    however, given smeargle's job description, there's nothing keeping it from falling into rank A. it performs its "role" (to pass agility) extremely consistently. it requires a bit of support, namely a second passer if the enemy team has double phazers for some reason, and a recipient like snorlax, which is pretty hard to fit on most teams i know.

    so i guess what i'm trying to say is redefine your ranks. as it stands, you're mostly just changing "minor" to "major" and saying stuff like "more support" and "weaker than stronger pokemon", which is all around vague. each rank should have a defining characteristic.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2014
  23. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    you have good points and when im not slightly tipsy i will give you a decent response. i'm not opposed to redefining the ranks though.
     
  24. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Seems the main problem here is that the current ranks are mainly defined by a BW/XY mindset when they need a GSC one. People who dabble in both/all three generations will know what I mean.
     
  25. borat

    borat Member

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    precisely, i like jorgen's tier definitions with one change. c-tier needs to mention how they pokemon have a certain unique advantage, but this advantage while viable, never dominates a game. this is what separates b from c imo.

    what does espeon do? growth and potentially pass with good damage on all common p-hazers minus ttar. but how gamebreaking is this? not at all.
    what does golem do? it's a rhydon with explosion. cool, it's different, but again, not game breaking.
    houndoom? shits on trappers and egg. nice, but ok.

    the key take away for a-tier imo is consistency. these pokemon need to work on a wide variety of teams, and be able to consistently perform, not necessarily their "role" since every pokemon's role changes from game to game, but to have an impact.

    now where i struggle is the defining characteristic of the b-tier. we can try a BL approach, where it's basically pokemon that are too good for c-tier, but not as consistent/reliable as the ones in a-tier, but that's just poor wording. these pokemon seem to be EITHER versatile, or consistent, but not both. blissey, misdreavus, heracross, marowak are pokemon that can fit on a variety of teams. machamp, umbreon, dragonite, and to some extent forretress are more limited in their versatility, but are pretty much one the best at what they do, whether it's to hit hard and fast, be an impenetrable fuck, or just setting spikes.

    using this definition, starmie would drop down to b, which feels weird but it doesn't seem all that awkward to me.

    again, i'm against sub-tiering things because it's even more subjective. if you really want -- two categories seem to be plenty. a general tier rank, and maybe the "standout" pokemon of each tier. breaking it into A-, A, A+ is too much. A+ or A imo, or just leave everything A.
     
  26. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    Yeah, looking at where things actually are, Smeargle does need to go up. It's a decent Baton Passer, and shouldn't be multiple rungs below Jolt/Espy. It's definitely not total garbage with one quirk, like Ampharos/Muk/Zam.
     
  27. borat

    borat Member

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    similar post as other forum:

    S: main criteria - ubiquity. you basically have snorlax + at least one electric on every team because that's how gsc's played.

    notable:

    Snorlax

    others:

    Zapdos
    Raikou

    A: main criteria - versatility. pretty much every team in existence can probably make use any of these pokemon and be just as good. most of these pokemon offer both offensive and defensive utility, and therefore can adapt to any team/meta.

    notable:

    Exeggutor
    Cloyster
    Skarmory

    others:

    Suicune (notable maybe)
    Vaporeon
    Steelix
    Gengar (maybe notable)
    Nidoking
    Tyranitar
    Miltank
    Marowak
    Starmie

    B: main criteria - metagame defining. something here is a reason why certain sets exist, why certain pokemon are popular in the first place. they've done something. they have the potential to be devastating given an advantageous meta shift, but they're not as adaptable to unfavorable metas as the pokes in tier A. most of these pokemon are a one trick pony though.

    notable:

    Forretress (might deserve higher to A)
    Misdreavus (might deserve higher to A)
    Machamp (might deserve higher to A)
    Jolteon (half the reason you run roar raikou in the first place)
    Blissey

    others:

    Dragonite
    Umbreon
    Rhydon
    Heracross
    Smeargle

    C: main criteria - the "almost theres", pokemon who seem to have the potential but have never actually done anything to change gsc because for one reason or another, they fall short. or the niche they occupy is just too damn small to be worthy of anything.

    notable:

    Porygon2 (probably to B if Rhydon/hera's in B tbh)
    Kangaskhan
    Espeon (probably not that notable)
    Charizard (potential B class, but i feel biased)

    others:

    Tentacruel
    Houndoom
    Golem
    Meganium
    Muk
    Quagsire
    Clefable

    Dropped

    Ampharos (this pokemon sucks in ou, be serious guys)

    so the differences would be:

    machamp, forretress, umbreon, misdreavus from a to b
    espeon, pgon2, and everything from b- to c
    smeargle to b
    drop ampharos and alakazam

    i feel like with b we still deal with good pokemon. c is full of situational retards. everything i propose from b -> c are pokemon that's never made an impact on the metagame in the history of gsc. also, the mentality should be to streamline higher tiers if at all possible. having a large rank c is better than an oversaturated a or b.

    rank a should be standards. i don't think umbreon and machamp were ever synonymous with that word. forretress maybe, but it's just a step below cloyster atm. and there's no reason to run both. misdreavus is misdreavus, this is the creme of the crop spin blocking. every other pokemon in A works on both offensive and defensive teams, missy doesn't -- going back to the versatility argument.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2014
  28. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    Borat: I feel like wak and mie should go down to B+ and not A. Marowak isn't all that versatile (sweeper with no recovery; I guess there's RestTalk but it isn't great at that), and Starmie isn't that deadly offensively.
     
  29. borat

    borat Member

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    versatility refers to moreso what kind of teams can these pokemon fit on, rather than how many roles they can occupy. wak/starmie feel find on the raikou/miltank/skarm teams, as well as some of the more aggressive ones. starmie a bit less so i suppose, but not too different from something like miltank.

    if i had to move one of them down, i think starmie would be the first to go. i feel like the whole "historical" statement is what's keeping starmie at elite levels, despite not having been an elite pokemon for the better part of the decade.

    i know jorgen has wak lower too, but i feel like he totally underrates wak, but then he does use st cune quite often. i need more opinions of less biased heads.
     
  30. Jørgen

    Jørgen Sniper

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    Wait I use ST Cune? I tend to bias my ratings toward what I personally find easier to make work, rather than what's harder to fight. So if anything, Marowak is low because my opponents use ST Cune.

    Actually, it's low because I cbf to make enough predictions to make it work. But I see that sort of dependence on prediction as a weakness when there's things like Nidoking, whose Speed gives it quite a bit of leeway. I tend to rate Machamp somewhat low for the same reason.

    Agreeing with Starmie down to the Bs though. Just doesn't do enough to be the best choice for most teams. I'd actually suggest the same thing for Suicune too; some games it's a godsend, but a lot of times it's not doing anything important. It's only ever not super-redundant on teams that are both defensive and for some reason don't have more than 1 Ground counter out of the other 5 Pokemon.
     
  31. borat

    borat Member

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    i think marowak is one of the best in the game at dealing "irrecoverable damage". sure he's sometimes compromised in the process (e.g. vs cloy, starmie, cune, egg, etc), but still there's nothing quite like it. and against teams/players playing passively, getting it in without damage isn't extremely hard at all. and against teams/players going to skarm on an sd, that's still 35%+ (crit or flinch) chance to put yourself in a huge advantage at the cost of nothing at all. the proper way to play marowak is to play him knowing you're going to lose him. if you're too passive with him, he's going to fall up short. pretend he's using explosion.

    machamp simple struggles to break through shit sometimes, which is the issue. he doesn't hit hard enough vs nidoking, heracross, forretress, in addition to all the weaknesses marowak has. that said, a resting marowak is... not that great overall. you need the egg/heracross coverage, and with rest you're naturally trying to preserve him. and preserving marowak is a very tall order imo, and actually holds back teams that try and do it.

    is this enough for A though? not sure.

    cune is pretty consistent, every bit as much as gengar, vaporeon, tyranitar, and miltank. sure it's a step below snorlax and zapdos, but what isn't? i think you've had your share of miltank headache matches where enemy has a gengar. i'm sure you've had your matches where gengar's set just doesn't work given the scenario. and vaporeon vs tentacruel is the worst shit ever. or ever have your nido flatout die to zapdos getting rest talk rng?

    what's your opinion on jolteon moving up?
     
  32. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    Eh, it sees some use on super-fast teams that need some sort of answer to "wait what if I fuck up and he doubles to CurseLax/[insert other setup here] and I lose momentum?". It can phaze anything once, which is what those teams typically need. And yeah there's the ST set for hardcore stalls.
     
  33. borat

    borat Member

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    i wouldnt say for hardcore stalls, but st cune is definitely a metagame pokemon. it keeps offense honest in case they start "cheating" too much in terms of coverage, it'll come back for a month and shit on everything, then go back to being obsolete. black history month, if you will.
     
  34. Jørgen

    Jørgen Sniper

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    Rhydon, Heracross, and Dnite have unique attributes or combinations thereof that allow them to fit onto teams in conventional roles without being outclassed. Jolteon has to prove it isn't just redundant next to the Zapdos or Raikou a team is bound to already have, or demonstrate that the narrow niche it fills that they don't is worth giving them up.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm more than willing to rag on how often Heracross disappoints, and recognize how good Jolteon can potentially be. Jolteon probably hangs with the other B+'s in a vacuum. But in terms of fitting him on a team? I really don't know if he does.
     
  35. borat

    borat Member

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    how relevant is that though?

    i realize versatility plays a role, but at some point quality does supersede quantity. heracross can fit on more teams, but none of those teams have been min-maxed at all. when you get down to it and trim the fat, heracross is usually one of the first you target.

    jolteon, on the other hand, IS a one trick pony. maybe a trick and a half if you count growth passing. but at the same time, there's literally nobody doing it better. that's a claim heracross will neverr be able to lay on anything. he'll always be average at everything, at sleep talking, at "walling", at 3 attack cursing. he's probably the best end-rev in the game, but that's never been competitive ever.

    at least with the way i've defined tiers, i did try to make tier A the one placing emphasis on versatility. tier B usually has pokemon that are more specialized but are extremely good at what they do (e.g. missy, umbreon), combined with basically 2nd rate tier-A things (dnite to nido, blissey to miltank, forretress to cloy, rhydon to steelix). seems like jolteon would fit right in. i'm not pushing for an A rank jolteon, but i know you have him as a C class.

    that is, unless you can convince me bp teams are clearly inferior to the other "top tier" teams.
     
  36. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Not sure what differentiates the +'s and -'s but it seems like Smeargle would still be best put into A- at least. Those poke's roles seem to be challenged more or less by team matchup, i.e. very poor in some, but pretty good overall. Smeargle seems to either fail overall (multiple phazers, untimely crits, Dynamic Punch or Cross Chop, unfortunate Sleep Talk rolls) or pull off its role perfectly (pass agility to the right poke). As others have said, it's pretty much the best Poke on full baton pass teams and their lead of choice.

    I'm not sure what notable niche Ampharos covers. It just seems like a slower, less bulky Raikou without Roar. Sort of fails as a mixed attacker if your opponent knows what moves it can carry; you're not going to catch a Forre or Ttar outside random matches on the ladder. Probably could be the first D tier poke if we're bothering with that.
     
  37. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    I can only see two Pokemon in A- that get wrecked by the wrong team matchup: Starmie (depends on opponent having Cloyster or Machamp to do anything) and maybe Machamp (Starmie's a fairly hard wall, but luring Starmie isn't that bad). Everything outside of that is pretty reliably useful.

    "How viable is Smeargle?" is essentially the same as "How viable are Baton Pass teams?", and the general opinion on that seems to be "not as proven as the other archetypes". Stall teams essentially always have multiple phazers (SkarmKou), and offense teams threaten to just Explode on whatever you're passing to or just stick their Sleep Talk Lax/Dos in front of you. These obstacles aren't insurmountable, but there haven't been enough dramatic demonstrations of surmounting them to convince most people.

    All that said, it does belong at least somewhere in the B ranks.

    There's Fire Punch and DynamicPunch, yes, but there's also Thunder Wave and screens. And if you scare out a suicide Forretress it means they don't get T1 Spikes, which is still a victory.

    And Muk's at least as outclassed by Snorlax as Ampharos is by Raikou TBH.

    EDIT: Also Fire Punch isn't just for Forry. It also hits Steelix hard, which is otherwise a giant pain for non-Zapdos Electrics (HP Water doesn't hit Egg, and HP Fire doesn't hit Nidoking/Marowak/Rhydon).
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2015
  38. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Probably shouldn't be your only plan for keeping spikes off if you really need them to not go down for that match. If I want twave and/or screens I'd probably pick Zapdos for how quickly it can get it done with so much less being able to threaten it out.

    At the very least Muk can threaten poison on the rocks and it resists Fighting. It's just sorta that Poke that frees lax up to do things other than what muk's already doing. Apparently it gets Mean Look, but I've never seen it in action (doesn't seem that useful).

    Houndoom and Clefable obviously have much more notable niches than Ampharos. Alakazam can do pretty much exactly what you're describing with Ampharos, but it's faster with one-turn recovery.

    I'm still convinced Ampharos needs to be removed or drop to D rank.

    Speaking of D rank, Pikachu could probably also go there for being a funky glass cannon. Almost completely outclassed by the two electrics, but he manages with surf freeing up hidden power and a Thunder that's a tad stronger. The amount of ballsy double switching to make it work sort of makes it not worth the effort though.

    serious business though
    Blissey should probably not be in the same tier as Smeargle, Jolteon, etc. A- seems to be the most appropriate.
    Being the only other Heal Beller and coming in basically for free vs. electrics is amazing. You can pass light screen, and apparently reflect too, to support drumlax, marowak, etc. Sing and Twave are both great options for cutting your opponent's momentum (blissey gives up a lot of momentum). Flamethrower and Ice Beam are both good for keeping out annoying pokemon like Steelix, Forretress, and the occasional Zapdos looking to absorb the sleep. It literally dies to no pure special attacker sans vaporeon.

    It's always going to let things in like Machamp, Snorlax, etc., but the amount of support it gives is at least as good as Starmie.

    edit: Scizor probably/definitely needs to fit in somewhere. Probably in B or C rank idk. Any ideas? B-?
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2015
  39. MoxieInfinite

    MoxieInfinite Member

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    Suicune should be A.
     
  40. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    Meh.

    Reflect and Thunder Wave are incompatible with Heal Bell (Heal Bell is a GSC move that Chansey only learns by breeding; Reflect and Thunder Wave are learned via RBY TM). If they weren't, Blissey would be a lot better. Particularly Reflect.

    Light Screen is nice, but the problem is this.

    The problem is that you have to phaze CurseLax; it has zero actual counters. Which means you're already close to running out of Light Screen turns by the time special attacks are actually in the cards. Not to mention the hell you're in for if DrumLax comes in for free.

    And while Blissey doesn't die immediately to special attackers, it also can't kill them; it will literally run out of PP first. And it can't phaze them, either. So actually, quite a few specials are capable of defeating Blissey either by PP-stalling it out of Softboiled or Spikes/Toxic shuffling.

    But the most basic problem is that if you want a good switch-in to Electrics, RestTalk CurseLax and RoarKou are already available. And they're two of the best Pokemon in GSC OU.