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Baton Pass Suspect Discussion: Revisited

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Discussion' started by Sinclair, Aug 11, 2014.

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  1. Sinclair

    Sinclair Call me the Pokemon Demigod

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    Discuss the possibility of banning Baton Pass from the XY OU Metagame, if need it be, within Pokemon Online's tiering in general. Please make intelligent posts based on experience and knowledge of the tier. We will infract for poor posts if it does not fit the criteria asked for.

    After many long discussions, we have decided to allow a discussion on a complex ban. We are also going to allow you to vote on the biggest abuser of the move in BP chains(Espeon). Your options are:
    A) Ban the move Baton Pass
    B) Ban Espeon
    C) Complex ban of more than one or two users of Baton Pass per team
    D) No bans

    Key points to be noted within the discussion:
    • Discuss the effect of the move on the metagame, and cite good points on why or why not it should be kept within the tier.
    • Please do not just post battle logs as an argument, we are well aware of its performance in game. Doing so will result in infraction.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2014
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  2. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    As it stands, i would support 2 options in this suspect:

    B) Ban Espeon
    Espeon has long be held in the eye on many players as a bad mon being NU until gen 5 (and even then in the weather-war meta it was niche at best). Gen 6 would not be considered a friendly environment at all to our kitty cat friend, what with all the aegi and talon flame about, but despite this i would support an Espeon ban.
    My reason for banning espeon is simple; it provides game breaking support for its team by being able to switch in on all status, pass along boosts, and sweep with stored power. Although in most scenarios espeon's glaring weakness prevent it from realizing its true potential, given to proper team mates, it can ignore/sweep a huge part of the meta and makes lots of conventional ways of dealing with baton pass useless (roar, taunt, encore). Espeon fills such a big role so well that it overcentralizes the metagame and forced things like haze quagsire to become a thing due to a lack of viable phasing methods.

    C) Complex ban of more than one user of Baton Pass per team
    I think this is the most logically sound solution and one that gets at the heart of many competitive players issue with baton pass,
    that is: chain pass
    This solution argues that any sort of infinite pass chain you can make with pokemon uncompetitive because it allow continuous momentum grabbing while boosting. Similar to how we deem sleep clause necessary, it would seam that the ability to chain pass is something that as a community we may not want to exist or promote.
     
  3. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    At last!


    Okay, so I'll respond to all of the options given:

    A) Ban Baton Pass as a whole.

    lolno.


    B) Ban Espeon

    Interesting idea, but unnecessary.

    Not only is banning a perfectly good Pokemon just because of one reason unfair to the Pokemon, but let's be real here, you won't kill Baton Pass teams if you do this. You burden them significantly by banning Espeon, but do you kill them? They can just run Mr. Mime and still spam Stored Power with Baton Pass. They can run Ingrain Smeargle or more attacking moves to neutralize phazing and Taunt respectively. There are plenty of CM passers available, BP + Dual Screens is not important, and if you just want a Stored Power spammer, you got Sigilyph and Clefable and a hell of a lot more as solid recipients.

    So what happens if you ban Espeon in the end? You ban a perfectly balanced Pokemon for the only reason of nerfing an overpowered team that can (but not will) still function without it.

    Pointless.


    C) Complex ban so that there can only be 1-2 Pokemon that can have Baton Pass per team

    This is the best and I think only answer to this problem. If you limit the amount of Baton Pass users, you kill Baton Pass Chains, still allow the use of Baton Pass, and remove any redundancies that would have been done otherwise. This is why I've been advocating for this for months now.


    D) Scrap the Suspect and leave everything as is

    You ignore a problem that everyone is complaining about and let it keep on breaking metagames and hearts. Congratulations.


    So yeah, if you can't tell, limiting the amount of Baton Passers per team is the absolute best way to solve the problem, and doing something else will either be pointless, more harmful than beneficial, or solve absolutely nothing in the end.
     
  4. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    Definitely option C.

    Banning Baton Pass as a move would definitely fix the problem but it would be overkill, as it would nerf non-broken strategies such as smash-passing or even using it for scouting purposes.

    Banning Espeon is probably the single worst option listed. It would hurt BP chains, but ultimately it would not kill them. It would also be eliminating a pokemon that is not even remotely close to broken nor uncompetitive outside of BP chains from usage in any tier except Ubers. Espeon is easily checked/countered by a plethora of pokemon despite it's epic ability in magic bounce. Its lack of any usable physical bulk leaves it vulnerable to virtually any priority in the tier, it is outsped by plenty of pokemon both scarfed and non-scarfed, and most special/mixed walls and a lot of AV users can take it with ease. All in all not bannable.

    A complex ban of a limited number of Baton Pass users per team would be the best idea. It would solve the problem of BP chains while not actually taking anything else away from non-chain strategies. I would honestly say that I can't imagine a (good) team that would include more than one BP user for non-chain reasons. A complex ban would fix all of the problems with BP chains while not creating any new ones.
     
  5. Dreams

    Dreams Active Member

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    A- No
    B- No
    C- Full chains seem to be the archetype everyone is whining about. Well, full chains are mediocre at best and there are enough pokemon in OU which hit insanely hard from the get go , preventing chains from getting sufficient boosts as early game chains are comparatively frail;
    Baton Pass's only good matchup is against slower teams where smeargle manages to pull off an ingrain and even then it is not guaranteed a win.
    Arguments about how Baton Pass presents the futility of making a switch , @MetalGross mentions "switching " is what makes pokemon competitive, well he's grossly misinformed . If switching is what makes pokemon competitive , then VoltTurn defies this aspect of the game.

    Competitive Pokemon emphasizes an understanding of game mechanics, team organization, and battle tactics, rather than cramming four moves of differing types on your Pokemon and picking whichever one is super effective.Players play to win , and as such use pokemon which give them the best chance to win.You cannot use your favorite playstyle/pokemon and complain about being unable to defeat certain teams , use stuff that can work in the current environment .

    Prediction is one of the keys to a successful game, but it should not be heavily relied upon. No one can predict with even close to perfect accuracy, and even a single missed prediction often means that one of your Pokemon will be KOed. That is not to say that you should never take risks, but it is important to weigh the rewards and the potential consequences of each decision that you make. And the risks for the BP users are massive , as one misplay costs them the match every time in a level of standard play.
    Although it may be difficult to comprehend at first, it is important to remember that directly countering every threat in the game is impossible. Even if the X/Y metagame was not filled with more powerful sweepers than in any previous generation, the metagame is constantly changing, and players will quickly find ways to abuse common trends. For this reason, there are in fact very few Pokemon that can always be directly countered at all. Pokemon is more than just countering ,it is possible to play around any kind of threat with a well built team, through planning, prediction, and custom sets.
    If the above conditions were not met by any specific entity , be it an item , a move, a pokemon , a playstyle and such , they would undoubtedly be deemed noncompetitive .

    Baton Pass ( Full chains ) however , do not break even a single one of the above standards . In fact , Baton Pass stands out as one of the few play styles which has the misfortune of having not only complete hard counters and checks , but also numerous ways to play around them.
    It is a skill based playstyle and not everyone can use it and be successful thereby not being chanced by luck/non skilled factors as well.
    Listing an incomplete set of counters /checks
    Baton Pass is hard countered by - Prankster Taunters/Encore users/Phazers/Haze users- ( Thundurus , Sabelye , Heatran,Mega Gyarados, Quagsire)
    Baton Pass is checked by -Sticky Web, Multi hit moves ( which has strong users in Breloom, Mega Heracross , and others like cloyster)
    -Strong Priority users ( Azumarill, Talonflame , Scizor ( Mega and non mega), Mega Pinisr ,Dragonite , Aegislash among others)
    -Strong Hitters ( Mega Zard Y, Mega Alakazam , Landorus , Imposter Ditto , Mega Mawile , Gardevoir )
    Rarely seen ( nonviable) hard counters- Curse users
    None of the above, bar quagsire use a "custom"set to get past Full Chains .

    No other playstyle can "boast" having so many checks/counters where you can run just one of them and always have a high winning matchup against Full Chains

    Therefore, Baton Pass (Full Chains) is a non perfect, flawed strategy having numerous hard counters , which is quite rare in the game ( Mega Mawile/Aegis among others come to mind) and also requires a high level of skill from the user to execute it to victory and hence, is perfectly competitive and not broken or worthy of a ban

    I vote D
    No Bans
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2014
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  6. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    Honestly BP teams only require +2 in both defenses to already make an impact in the game, which honestly isn't terribly difficult to grab considering almost if not every single member on the BP chain actually carries a move that boosts either defense stat (or both in Mega Mawile's case via Stockpile). It is while true that faster and significantly offensive-based teams can exert offensive pressure and prevent Scolipede from grabbing too many speed boosts and may be able to break the chain before it grabs too many defense boosts. I agree fully with why switching makes pokemon competitive, smart double switches help improve your position over your opponent, even if he only had to take a layer of stealth rock damage, giving you the potential free turn to set-up or just push your opponent further backwards simply because you made a smart double switch.

    So you are saying that because stall is unable to touch or beat BP, therefore it is trash because it "cannot work in the current environment" as described by you? Stall may lack the offensive presence to deal with BP teams effectively, but it still holds its ground very well versus other archetypes, I do not see how it is terrible, in fact stall is still one of if not the most reliable and solid playstyles (what an irony when everyone at the start of XY thought stall is dead because of defog buff)

    I strongly believe in 3 factors in competitive pokemon: Luck, match up, prediction, of which the former two are not in control of your hands. What you can control however is the ability to predict and outplay your opponent. A good player will know when to make aggressive plays if the potential reward of opening a hole that may win him the game outweights the minimal risk involved and he will also know when to make the safer plays in order to guarentee the win, be it by foddering a pokemon or other means. Mispredictions happen, but this is exactly the case with playing against BP. One mispredict, the game is almost all but over because a single mispredict grants the BP user so much momentum which he can easily abuse by either setting up a boost/sub/scouting and passing with BP. I disagree that the risks for BP users are as large as the non-BP user, as usually BP teams have multiple boosts under its belt, and in the event where it doesn't have multiple defense boosts, it is usually because it is within the first 8 turns of the match where the game has barely developed. I have yet to see a game where a misplay costs the BP user the match, it usually only leaves the BP user open without a substitute up and he can easily just substitute to cover for it and protect himself from unfortunate crits.

    Precisely because pokemon is about playing around your weaknesses, however the way BP is played just makes BP so hard to play around. How are you supposed to play around BP when BP will almost always have the switch advantage because of BP's mechanics which allows the BP user to scout whatever you tried to switch to. What differenciates BP from Volt-Turn (which full volt-turn chains aren't even overly good currently because of its inability to touch stall effectively) is that BP can pass boosts alongside punishing smart plays while Volt-Turn simply punishes smart plays alongside a little chip damage along with it and gains momentum to the Volt-Turn user if used correctly. However Volt Switch does have a flaw in which it can be blocked by ground-types, which saps away the Volt-turn users momentum if the user does not hit the ground-type on the switch with an attack that hits it hard enough to gtfo. Again Volt-Turn comes down to the element of prediction, will he bring in his ground-type to absorb the volt-switch and should I Hydro Pump the incoming Excadrill with Rotom-W predicting his switch-in, or should I just volt-switch anyway which may give Excadrill a free switch-in to spin away the hazards or outright KO Rotom-W with a Mold Breaker EQ. BP differs itself from this in a way that BP cannot be blocked outside of Taunt, and even then BP has equipped itself to even fight Taunt, such as Mental Herb Scolipede and having the mandatory Espeon.

    How many Prankster Taunt users that are viable in OU do we have exactly? Only 2, Thundurus and Sableye. Of which if the BP user does BP off to Espeon on the switch where the opponent brings in Thundurus, the opponent is fucked because Espeon now gets up a CM and Thundurus can't do shit to it. Same with Sableye, predict the switch and bring in Sylveon, you can either CM or Hyper Voice and hit something for really hard damage. Multi-hit moves doesn't exactly defeat BP, it just breaks BP's sub and does a small chunk when the BP user can easily replace the Substitute. All the priority users you listed are defeated by Vaporeon+Zapdos, and this gives both of them a free turn to set up an Acid Armor and Charge respectively, both boosting defensive stats and making the chain on a whole even harder to break. All of the "strong hitters" you listed have their own personal flaws, such as Zard Y getting its sun stalled out by a combination of Protect+Substitute, and then BPing to Zapdos to eat the Fire Blast and start boosting with Charge. Landorus is also walled by Zapdos, however Zapdos can't do much to it other than boosting with Charge while Landorus may have the potential CM set, but even then it can be roared away by Vaporeon. Imposter Ditto can come in when a sub is broken, however it is limited to 5 turns and after that it must switch out or struggle and kill itself, and the 5 turns can easily be substitute stalled. Mega Mawile faces issues with Vaporeon in particular. CM/Taunt Mega Gardevoir is really the only one that can boast about being able to beat BP since it 2hkoes pretty much everything and can CM alongside the BP user and Hyper Voice still goes through Substitutes. Taunt also disrupts BP and forces them to hard switch out if they want to salvage the chain or just struggle and kill themself. BP doesn't have exactly "numerous counters", and like you said earlier you can play around anything, BP can also play around its counters with minimal difficulty and losses. BP has a low risk but very high reward, and it also punishes prediction which makes me think it is uncompetitive.

    Just to show how fucking strong BP is with stored power here is a calc:
    +3 0 SpA Espeon Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 307-362 (94.7 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
    It only takes a +2 defense, +3 special attack, +3 special defense and +4 speed boost in order to have a very solid chance of breaking 252hp Aegislash, and even 2 CMs alone+4 speed boost already 2hko Aegislash, just to show how strong Stored Power is when used in tandem with BP.

    edit: fucking bold fucks up the bb code
     
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  7. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    @Dreams
    You're misunderstanding the problem, like, completely.

    The argument you gave for switching and Baton Pass is.......just.........it goes exactly like this:

    If switching = metagame and VoltTurn = switching, but VoltTurn = not broken, then Baton Pass = not broken because Baton Pass = switching which is the same as VoltTurn

    *one facepalm later*

    That same logic can go into this statement:

    If a human requires two legs to run, then four legs can make something run twice as fast. Thus, a tortoise can run twice as fast as a human because it has twice as many legs.

    The logic is true, but the statement itself makes no fucking sense.


    Also, your main argument that because it has counters within the metagame it is not uncompetitive is not only wrong but ignorant to the definition.

    Something uncompetitive is something that has no place within the standard mold of the metagame and is deemed "unorthodox" compared to the other basic playstyles.

    That being said, UNCOMPETITIVE DOES NOT ALWAYS MEAN IT'S OP, BROKEN, OR UNCOUNTERABLE, and I am tired of seeing that misconception! FEAR sets, novelty sets, most Eviolite Pokemon, and a myriad of other Pokemon, moves, items, and abilities can all be classified as uncompetitive because it is literally not fit for the metagame, not because the metagame can't stop it.

    Baton Pass is one of the examples where uncompetitive derives into the unfair category, where the the main metagame just can't deal with it easily enough to specify it as a legitimate playstyle, exactly like Swagger Abuse.


    Oh, and the counters section you gave, you completely ignored the cold hard fact that NO Baton Pass Team is considered effective unless they carry Substitute, a Speed Booster, Espeon, and Defense ups. If they have neither of them, they most of the time are deemed ineffective.

    Yeah none of your counters can dent the team if they have the staples.
     
  8. Rage.

    Rage. [Hero] and [LGI]

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    I think BP chains can basically be seen like a set-up sweeper. How does one manage set-up sweepers? Revengekilling, take a hit and retaliate with KO'ing or PHazing. Pressuring it to prevent it from boosting is a viable way too. So, which of these work for BP chains? RKing works only if you have a strong Volt switcher slower than Scoli, combined w/ Talonflame. Taking a hit and retaliate with a KO? Taking Hits isn't necessary against BP, but they can take the hits fired off at them easily by switching to another booster. that means, you can't abuse the type weaknesses of the currently active setupper. The passchain can run switchins for any offensive type and boost on them. This is in general nothing broken, the problem is that they keep the Boosts when the active mon is forced out. Pressuring was my last point against boosters. Its basically the same issue as the forcing out-aspect. You can pressure one BP member or even five, but against a well-built chain you won't be able to kill every 6 mons, which you have to do. Unless Mane/Spexzone/w.e. + Talonflame. Taunt Thundy is a workable way too, the other prankster taunters are BS in the meta. MGyara prefers Ice Fang, not Taunt. This is why I see BP chains as overcentralizing and think some action must be done, i.e. d) is out for me. a) sucks because they are enough non-broken ways to use the move BP. b) would make the chain archetype harder to use, but however if we nerf it by c), espeon will simply get less usage in OU and possibly drop to UU, where it isn't as ass as in OU. So I vote c)
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2014
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  9. Proof

    Proof Well-Known Member

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    I say C, and I'm just going to paste my post from OU suspect discussion a while back.

    "I'd like to get the ball rolling on baton pass again. Baton pass has always been a pretty ridiculous strategy, and executed well, it goes against just about every aspect of competitive pokemon. Unlike stall, balance, hyper offense, bulky offense, or offense, baton pass doesn't rely on any regular strategies to do damage (no hazards, 1 or 2 offensive moves on the whole team). It, however, relies on setting up with 5 different pokemon and continually passing between them with defensive boosts, magic bounce, soundproof, and substitute to effectively make itself near-invincible. There are quite a few checks, however, there's no real "counter" to these baton pass chains, with the exception of haze. Taunt, roar, dragon tail, and whirlwind, and strong priority (banded Dragonites espeed, bdrum Azumarril, etc) get the most notable mentions as checks to baton pass. Roar and dragon tail are probably the least reliable answers to baton pass, and unfortunately, roar is the more common phasing move. Dragon tail has 2 problems, whereas roar has one. The first is, Mr. Mime and Espeon are on almost every baton pass team, preventing roar or dragon tail (due to mime's fairy typing and soundproof, and Espeon's magic bounce). Dragon tail's other hindrance is that baton pass functions with a substitute up the vast majority of the battle, so dragon tail will generally be blocked. Taunt is also very good, but flawed. Espeon's presence on baton pass means that they can lead with Scolipede, get at least plus one speed, and pass right back to Espeon to reflect taunt. As Espeon is used on almost all baton pass teams, and Scolipede passes it +1 speed so easily, the chain can begin easily, and taunt can be reflected. Also, a smaller side note, there may be 1 or 2 mental herb pokemon on baton pass at times, to prevent taunt. Finally, strong priority users can keep baton pass in check (azu likely being the best example, setting up to +6 in one turn with a powerful aqua jet), but even then, with the easy +2 defense boost users such as defensive vaporeon can use, it's shaky at best. Zapdos is commonly run on baton pass with agility to ensure safety against mega pinsir and Talonflame. The ultimate counter to baton pass, and probably the only thing (move or pokemon) that ensures you to beat baton pass with relative ease, is haze. Unfortunately, however, haze sees almost no use in competitive play due to the lack of pokemon that get it, and roar being a generally superior option (in every case except where you're dealing with the last pokemon, and when you're facing a magic bounce user). Baton pass ensures an easy speed boost turn 1 (or more likely a few), and with the use of a magic bounce user with stored power and defensive boosters, can be ridiculous to deal with. This, in conjunction with its uncompetitive nature, make me believe baton pass chains should be banned."
     
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  10. Luke Van

    Luke Van New Member

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    Well,I choose B, Ban Espeon.(I'm an Espeon-fan indeed.)
    Forgive me I'm a Chinese and not good at English.
    Espeon is the vital key of a BP team.Without Espeon, the risk of breaking the chain exists(Roar,Taunt,Encore).Another efficient method is the skill Haze,however,there are only two Pokemons can complete this mission safely(Qugsire and Murkrow),but these two Pokemons can't fit many teams for example the team of me.Then the skill Clear Smog,pitifully,the skill can't effect Steel-type Pokemons(like Mega Mawile) and the Pokemons which use this skill like Amoonguss and Wezzing obtain a weakness of Psychic.
    I can't imagine A or C,which mean the decline of Espeon.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2014
  11. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    Since I was one of the people advocating some bp action, I might as well say something.

    Baton pass is simply way too effective at accomplishing its goal of accumulating boosts and becoming practically untouchable. Traditional methods of beating bp consist of boosting alongside it, phazing or simply smashing the chain before it can properly set up. Everything else is limited to a select few users and/or is just plain bad. Boosting alongside the chain is in my experience the least viable way of checking bp as bp chains will be boosting their defences alongside you (So you're not exactly gaining an advantage) and have the luxury of phazing you out at their leisure.

    Phazing at least forces bp to make predictable plays as they rely on Espeon (and maybe Mr. Mime) to handle phazing. However even then, a good proportion of phazers don't have any method of preventing Espeon from setting up, while still others fear a Stored Power KO.

    Smashing through the chain is probably the best of the 3 main methods, but even then it's difficult to accomplish because of bp's access to practically guaranteed speed boosts, which firstly allow its members to invest fully in bulk and secondly ensures that they will always be able to boost their defences and absorb those powerful hits. Priority does alleviate the issue of speed, but there is always a tradeoff in power/type efficacy- often bp users will be able to take those attacks anyway and boost so that they deal inadequate damage

    So yeah, bp is simply way too difficult to stop, so I'm going to vote that the number of baton pass users on a team be limited (C)
     
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  12. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    A) Ban the move Baton Pass
    No. Baton Pass itself isn't broken for several reason. Just look at older gens..
    B) Ban Espeon
    No. Espeon itself isn't the (only) cause that makes BPass Chains broken. Espeon itself, w/out BPass Chain, is a quite good support mon outclassed by many other in OU.
    C) Complex ban of more than one or two users of Baton Pass per team
    Yeah. No more than ONE BPass user per team. I'll go with this
    D) No bans
    No lol

    My vote goes for C, one BPass user per team.

    I find redundant explaining AGAIN why BPass Chains are broken but that's a playstyle that u can't beat without a perfect matchup (Taunt Thundurus w/Knock Off? lol), then u just have to hope BPass User does many mistakes and u gotta play perfectly predicting every move..
     
  13. .Rawr!

    .Rawr! c(°3°)כ

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    Well, we have this thread again, so I start copy pasting what i said in the last discussion:
    Other ways to get about bpass I saw last weeks is Sticky Web itself, Hyper Voice megagardevoir and Critdra (although niche mon)


    Now, other factor to have in discussion here is: is Baton pass truly an issue? yep, i mean, in gen5 pretty much no one complained about it (different of other issues like swagger, which were discussed on gen5 already), so what have changed from gen5 to gen6 to make it a problem?

    Pros:
    Speed boost scolipede
    Sylveon

    Cons: Pretty much a lot what i posted in the quote, posting here for completeness:
    Sound moves bypass subs
    Infiltrator boost
    Megapinsir/Talonflame
    Lot of stronger boosting attackers

    Pretty much the pros and cons are balanced (if not the cons are more).
    At last if Baton Pass remain a problem for you, and complex bans are allowed, consider a complex ban for Scolipede, like its the main change of baton pass teams from gen5 to gen6.


    Tl;dr: My suggestion is to have a complex ban on Scolipede, otherwise if this is not possible i vote D) No bans
     
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  14. Avalugg_

    Avalugg_ I'm a table

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    Surprisingly there are people that use Baton Pass as a way to get momentum/avoid pursuit, instead of making giant chains and sweeping through a team. Although it's not as common this gen, it still occurs. Banning Baton Pass in a whole isn't necessary, however I do agree on only limiting the move baton pass to 1 Poke per team, this makes it so Baton pass chains cannot happen, but it also allows pokes to get out of situations and Shadow Tag, also on the ban espeon option, Mr. Mime can be used as a mon to stop roar/dragon tail. Since whirlwind is uncommon in the tier baton pass teams could be successful, banning espeon wont solve the big issue. I'm going with option C
     
  15. Linkin Karp

    Linkin Karp Reformed™

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    Option B is most logical. I don't see why Espeon shouldn't be broken as without it, Baton Pass would be managable for basically every team. Its ability and the possibility to pass on even further gives it a niche that is so broken it should be banned. Without Magic Bounce, the chain is completely vulnerable to Taunt (if it doesn't have full boosts yet) and above all, Roar and Whirlwind. Xatu or other Magic Bouncers cannot be compared to Espeon as they don't have access to Baton Pass, so the BP team cannot stop taunters early-game by passing to the Bouncer and then back.
    Option C is complete garbage. It destroys SmashPass teams (which are definitely not broken, neither are they the topic of our discussion), most of which bring more than one Smasher / Quiver Dancer. For example the combination of Gorebyss, Venomoth and 3 sweepers is pretty common and would die to Option C (if only 1 Passer is allowed). If Option C allows the use of 2 passers, we will see a lot of Scolipede - Smeargle - Espeon chains which are just as broken as a 6 BP users team.
    Baton Pass itself is not the problem, Baton Passing to Espeon is the problem.
     
  16. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    If a pokemon simply makes a playstyle viable, should we ban that particular pokemon? Going by your logic we should have long banned Tyranitar since it made Sand Offense possible, but is it really broken? Roar and Whirlwind are easily stopped by Ingrain anyway, and BP teams are pretty prepared for Taunt teams I guess in the sense that Scolipede runs Mental Herb and most other members on the team do run an attacking move that can easily 1hko all Taunt users with a number of boosts under its belt. Not sure how high you are up on the ladder but I honestly haven't seen Gorebyss or Venomoth at all in OU. Really the only time I saw Baton Pass actually being used was with Celebi, and that was to escape from Tyranitar. Option C only allows the use of 1 passer, which means atmost Scolipede can pass a speed boost to Espeon and Espeon has to attempt to sweep an entire team, which is extremely unlikely because of its subpar defenses and it requires multiple CMs and boosts for Stored Power to actually do damage. I don't see why we should ban Espeon at all.
     
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  17. Fixed

    Fixed Active Member

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    Even though I'm not convinced that it's necessary to ban anything at all, I'd like to explain why I think that if Baton Pass chains need to be nerfed, option B is far superior to options A and C.

    Option C is not a viable option in my opinion, we should not be introducing complex bans. Allowing complex bans will cause trouble when it comes to reasoning like "Blaziken is only broken with Speed Boost", or even worse, "Groudon is only broken with Earthquake". Allowing Blaze Blaziken is not bad in principle, but for every banned Pokemon we will have to pinpoint what exactly makes it broken and find a suitable complex ban and this is too impractical to ever be considered a serious option.

    All non-complex bans that nerf BP chains will cause some collateral damage, i.e. strategies that are not broken will also be nerfed. In the case of option A Smash Pass will no longer be possible, as well as using Baton Pass to escape Pursuit or Gothitelle. In the case of option B using Espeon with 4 attacks (possibly in a lower tier eventually) will no longer be possible. This does not mean that these options are not good, we have always been against using broken Pokemon in ways that do not make them broken (Blaze Blaziken, Choice Specs Groudon). As the strength of BP chains is caused by a combination of Espeon and the move Baton Pass, we have a choice of what to ban. It is obvious that we should choose the ban that causes the least collateral damage (i.e. we ban Groudon and not the move Earthquake). In this case, it is clear that Espeon has next to no use outside BP chains, while the move Baton Pass does have some niche outside chain passing. So I think banning Espeon is the way to go, if BP chains have to be nerfed.

    I still think no bans have to be made at all, and I'll argue this point later.
     
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  18. Rage.

    Rage. [Hero] and [LGI]

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    [Hero]Zapdos.
    bp dgaf about pinsir since they run zapdos, chandelure is ass in ou (noivern can work), azumarill can't really get past zapdos because of tbolt (+6 aqua jet and +0 play rough are weak against def zap), mawile gets boosted along by scoli, critdra gets substitute-stalled and spored (stabs are only 8 pp for both), sylveon ohkoes w/ unboosted hyper voice, prankster taunt is only viable on thundy (sableyes ou potential is limited but workable too), Roar / Taunt Mold Breaker mons, like Mega Gyarados, Haxorus, Dudrigon, Hawlucha are all uncommon and mgyara is better w/ ice fang, taunts other uses are limited (it can kill skarm but therefore loses to nite and mvenusaur) since it can break through unaware users w/ mb anyways, sticky web has to run galvantula against bp (however i sometimes consider running defog zappy on bp), idk about how viable the single sticky users are. Haze/Psong/ghost curse no comment, they are just not really integrateable w/o waste of slots, maximally song politoed on swiftspam teams. so haze/song/ghostcurse are not an argument because they have no use outside of dealing w/ bp
     
  19. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    I'm hoping this is a joke, as this is one of the biggest slippery slope fallacies I've ever seen. Saying "a complex ban to nerf a problematic PLAYSTYLE" is not the same as saying "a complex ban to prevent an otherwise broken POKEMON from being broken", and acting like allowing one would cause the other one to be a serious consideration is logically unsound, to put it nicely.

    Speed Boost Blaziken is a problem because with its ability, movepool, typing, and stats, it is overcentralizing and broken. Same thing with Groudon, except x100. Espeon is a problem because it is an extremely good pokemon to use on a problematic playstyle.

    To put into different words, Blaziken is broken on pretty much any well-built team that can support it, as is Groudon and pretty much every other Uber. Espeon is only broken with a relatively specific set of teammates who all have a relatively specific set of moves each.

    And finally, you're ignoring the fact that banning Espeon won't actually nerf baton pass chains. Thanks to Smeargle's Ingrain and the existence of Mr. Mime, phazing doesn't become a serious problem. There are plenty of others who can still sweep, either with Stored Power or via Calm Mind or the rare Bulk Up boosts. The only strategy that becomes significantly better against BP teams is Taunt, which arguably is only powerful with prankster users, as the BP teams can more often than not outspeed the taunter and either taunt in return or sometimes even KO the user.
     
  20. Fixed

    Fixed Active Member

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    Using different terms to describe similar cases doesn't prove that they are not similar. One could well argue that Espeon is a broken Pokemon because of the support it offers to BP chains, and in fact some of the pro-nerf supporters are doing exactly this.

    I don't understand why the amount of different teams on which a Pokemon displays its broken qualities has any relevance at all. On a not so important side note, and I can understand as you are a main OU player, you have no knowledge about the Pokemon Groudon. The support set is just a slightly modified Landorus-T, it would work well on different types of teams in OU, but is hardly broken. The set that is too strong for OU is the Rock Polish set (with either Swords Dance or three attacks), where Groudon sets itself apart from Landorus-T because it is not reliant on Intimidate to stop physical (priority) revenge killers. This set can't just be slapped on any team, and is not even close to as problematic for the tier as Blaziken.

    I have not seen these BP chains without Espeon you speak about, so banning Espeon does nerf BP chains, i.e. it will force them to use a worse version of what they are currently using. You do have a valid point though in that an Espeon ban is only a good solution if BP chains are not banworthy in a metagame without Espeon. I considered this to be the case, but of course it is possible to argue against this. I don't have much to say about it though, as I don't yet understand why BP chains would have to be nerfed with Espeon.
     
  21. Sinclair

    Sinclair Call me the Pokemon Demigod

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    I would just like to point out that if we were to use a complex ban here, the situation you are describing will not happen. We understand that complex bans are a slippery slope, yes, but we also understand that in some extreme cases it may just be necessary to allow a complex ban. I can pretty much guarantee that if we decide to complex ban baton pass it would be the only complex ban of this generation(unless ORAS brings some new game mechanic).

    Anyways, this has been a good discussion so far, continue on. :]
     
  22. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    A) It's not the move itself that is broken, it's the chains.

    B) While banning Espeon would hinder BP chains, it wouldn't solve the problem. Mr. Mime is fairly common on BP as it blocks Roars and Perish Songs if I'm not mistaken, Smeargle is too because of Ingrain which blocks Whirlwinds and provides residual recovery. As for Stored Power users, you have stuff like Clefable, Musharna (also gets BP), Vaporeon (also gets BP), Togekiss (also gets BP), etc. By itself Espeon is just a solid utility mon with Magic Bounce, it doesn't need to go because chains abuse it.

    C) This is the only way to do this imo. It was evident on Smogon that even limiting teams to only 3 BP users proved to still be problematic so they had to scale it back to 1 max. Even having 2 max could still be an issue simply because of Scol+Espeon being so strong.

    D) No, this is the most broken, brainless "playstyle" in the game right now. It requires very specific checks/counters like Haze for example, which distribution-wise is scarce, and the lack of which on your end can mean basically auto-lose in a large majority of situations, especially with more defensive oriented teams. And even if you have Haze, it doesn't mean you've beaten BP because they can actually stall out your Hazes (which happened to me and I lost, the most painful 209 turns I've ever played). Please ban it.
     
  23. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    To be honest I should have preferred an option E: ban BatonPass + One of these following moves in spoiler (aka stat-up moves):
    Acid Armor, Acupressure, Agility, Amnesia, Autotomize, Barrier, Belly Drum, Bulk Up, Calm Mind, Charge, Coil, Cosmic Power, COTTON GUARD, Curse, Defend Order, Defense Curl, Dragon Dance, Flower Shield, GEOMANCY, Growth, Harden, Hone Claws, Howl, Iron Defense, Magnetic Flux, Meditate, Nasty Plot, QUIVER DANCE, Rock Polish, Rototiller, Sharpen, SHELL SMASH, Shift Gear, Stockpile, Swords Dance, Tail Glow, Withdraw, Work Up

    With the right support a single bpasser (Smeargle) can do the same job bpass chains did all together: bpassing to Espeon enough stuff to let it be invicible and sweeping with Stored Power. Also ShellPasser or QuiverDancer are cancerous too. Tailwind+Screens+Memento+Quiver/Shell/GeoCotton passer+Espeon/Recipient(+Gothi filler to cripple sponges like Chansey/Blissey) that's the fuckin formula to give cancer to people and be uncompetitive, since everything but boost aren't phazable, Memento always give the freeturn for statupping, Smeargle Sashed at +2 speed can Spore/DarkVoid phazers and bpass to Espeon which is unphazable so Haze, once again, is the almost one and only chance to prevent this thing got 100% win vs a lot of matchups bar crits.

    That thing let me start changin mind about the fact that, if it's not possible this kind of complex ban, the option A can be reasonable. I think BPass itself is not broken cuz, besides passing boosts, it can be also a sort of "non-damagin U-Turn" which is only smart especially on mons like Celebi, or Espeon itself. But when u can give more than +3 stat-ups in just two turns (Statupping -> BPassing) to things like Espeon (Bouncers), well, u have to start thinking that is not so healthy. (At least ban bpass + quiver dance/geomancy/cotton guard/shell smash/tail glow)
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2014
  24. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    Would my statement have made more sense if I said something along the lines of "in any situation/most situations" instead of "on any team"? I would say the same thing applies to the three; Groudon and Blaziken are still broken in most situations/on most teams, and Espeon is broken in no situation except for when it is on a very specific team (and it's arguable that Espeon isn't even the problem). Or, even better, what probably encapsulates what I'm going for best is that Groudon and Blaziken have specific sets that make them broken, whereas Espeon has no specific set that makes it broken, more of the overall niche it fulfills on a teamstyle that is broken/unhealthy for other reasons.

    You do have a fair point about the fact that banning Espeon would indeed be a nerf, and these Espeon-less chains of which I speak do not exist now because of Espeon. However, that would be a viable solution only if the problem with BP chains was nothing other than being broken. Unfortunately, that isn't the case. From what I've seen, part of the problem with BP teams isn't necessarily that they're overpowered, but that they're somewhat uncompetitive as well. I won't go into the reasons why unless you wish to have a discussion about that specifically, but the problem is that even without Espeon, BP chains still have all the problems that they have with Espeon except they are slightly weaker.

    Also, I would argue that the same logic could be applied equally to banning Scolipede instead, as the decrease in overall power of a BP team would be roughly the same (maybe slightly smaller). And even if both Espeon AND Scolipede were banned, BP teams still would be viable, albiet weaker, and they would still have all the same problems as they would with those two.
     
  25. Dreams

    Dreams Active Member

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    I never said that switching=meta game.
    I pointed out the user who did say it and I proceeded to prove it wrong.
    I have my doubts wether you can actually read.
    You also ignored the fact that bp chains are beaten by breaking those very subs you keep whining about.
    The rest of your post if flawed, irrelevant and senseless.


    I'd reply to Draco's surprisingly good post but I'm weary of repeating my arguments as to why it isn't broken. No one uses mawile on a serious team and no one gives a fuck what gyarados prefers to run, ice fang doesn't let it beat bp, if it wants to run ice fang so badly, then run any one of the other mons I've mentioned on your team to smash bp. Ditto doesn't attack, it passes to something which smashes the opponent to bits. When have you last used ditto?

    Stall has a good chance of victory against baton pass especially ones which run heatran /mega Venusaur.
    However if it wasn't viable against baton pass then that's the risk the player is taking while running stall.
    None of those you've mentioned are reasons for claiming full chains are broken. If something isn't viable , you're a fool to use it.
    Full chains don't succeed against all styles, they struggle against offense and balanced teams and the only good matchup they have is against slow teams
    The theorymon as to how easily you get access to a 260BP stored power complete with a sub and a healthy espeon is almost as disgusting as the trash that is Geomancy + CG smeargle. I
    t requires an insane amount of support of to pull it off and it's ruined by a simple defog . even with all the memento and taunt it's still very Shaky and should never be a legitimate argument for brokenness. If you allow things to get that far, I don't see why you still play, it's the same as letting pinsir set up to +6 while you're busy typing a post about how broken pinsir is
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2014
  26. Rage.

    Rage. [Hero] and [LGI]

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    [Hero]Zapdos.
    lol
    >no one runs mawile if srs
    why does it have about 10% usage then?
    and taunt mgyara is really only used for skarm and bp, so unless the team has problems w/ skarm is it worth using? you display it like every bp-beating thing would be good in the rest of the meta.
    Thundy and maybe sableye, phazers wont do anything significant, encorers just don't exist in ou, same for haze
    No. Zapdos > tflame/scizor/azumarill/pins/aegi, Sylveon > dragonite, smeargle > aegi, and espy doesnt come near to getting ohkoed w/ the 252/252+def spread.
    zardy gets sun-stalled, alak loses against bold espeon w/ cm, charge zapdos > landy, any def boosts (its boost fodder for scoli and prolly for vappy) > mawile and mgard wins, against ditto safe play is necessary, aka going for sub whenever you have a mon w/ an attacking move up,bp has no problems to choose another of there mons to pass to them and get a free sub.
    no, espeon uses both as setupping fodder with the bulky spread.
    4 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Espeon: 114-135 (34.2 - 40.5%) -- 48.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    4 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. +1 248 HP / 0 SpD Espeon: 76-90 (22.8 - 27%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
    4 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. +2 248 HP / 0 SpD Espeon: 58-69 (17.4 - 20.7%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery (free sub range)
    0 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Espeon: 120-142 (36 - 42.6%) -- 95.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    0 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. +1 248 HP / 0 SpD Espeon: 81-96 (24.3 - 28.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
    0 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. +2 248 HP / 0 SpD Espeon: 60-72 (18 - 21.6%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

    feel proven this is the case for your arguments, mostly the "flawed" point, but senseless fits too.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2014
  27. Fixed

    Fixed Active Member

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    Then what makes Baton Pass an extreme case? I could understand a complex ban in a hypothetical situation where all other options severely impact the metagame, but banning Espeon seems a perfectly reasonable alternative, provided that BP chains without Espeon are fine in the resulting metagame.

    -------

    It's time to talk about the crucial question now though: Is it necessary to nerf Baton Pass chains? I will try to talk about all different arguments that have been used to justify a nerf to BP chains.

    Firstly, some people are claiming that BP chains are broken (i.e. too powerful). I don't agree with this, and I still stand by what I posted in the last thread.

    Although the part about counters beating BP chains instantly was an overexaggeration, I still think that BP chains cannot be broken because of the high risk involved.

    Another common argument used to justify nerfing BP chains is that they are uncompetitive. I do not like how this word is thrown around all the time, especially as there is no clear definition for it. I'll reply to the two posts in this thread that concern the uncompetitiveness of BP chains.


    A strategy with low risk and high reward would be considered broken, so this is not really a uncompetitiveness argument. I personally consider BP to be a playstyle with very high risks. At the start of the game you might be able to sponge some hits, but after a few turns when some of your Pokemon become damaged, you'll lose very quickly if you don't have your chain going with enough defensive boosts. It is also in general very easy to screw up the chain, for example by losing a 50/50 and having no answer to the opposing threat, or getting Taunted/phazed by surprise.

    You define 'uncompetitive' as 'unusual' and, as you have also noted, this makes BP chains uncompetitive but not necessarily banworthy. The main point of your argument seems to be the part where you claim that "the main metagame just can't deal with it easily enough", which again is a brokenness argument, not an uncompetitiveness one.

    The strongest argument in my opinion to nerf BP chains is overcentralization, or more specifically, the problem that BP chains would invalidate defensive/stall teams, as those don't have enough power to break through the chain before it gets enough boosts. This argument has been brought up by Zorodark in the last thread. The crucial point here is the matchup between stall and BP teams. One common Pokemon on stall teams that annoys BP chains is Heatran, which tries to force in Espeon with the threat of Roar and then tries to damage and burn it with Lava Plume. So it's logical for the BP team to try and get Ingrain up as soon as possible, especially as Smeargle will likely not be needed to stop powerful threats with its Focus Sash. Other members of stall teams that annoy BP chains are Haze Quagsire, Mega Venusaur and Mandibuzz. Haze Quagsire is clearly annoying, but can often be outstalled when Ingrain is up. It would mostly be used in combination with other Pokemon to break the chain. Mega Venusaur on the other hand uses its neat typing to hit many BP members super effectively and can try to poison opponents with Sludge Bomb. Zapdos deals with Venusaur quite well though, although Venusaur does learn Roar. Mandibuzz, like Heatran, carries the threat of phazing and also annoys BP chains by using Knock Off on their Leftovers.

    So far these are Pokemon that are standard on Stall teams and fulfil useful defensive tasks besides battling BP chains. What might work even better though is adding a Pokemon to a Stall team with the specific intent to beat BP chains. It is not uncommon for Stall teams to carry a wallbreaker or stallbreaker to get a better matchup against opposing stall teams. In that case it may be interesting to use something like Sableye with Prankster Taunt as it can force BP chains to start over. Gengar is another interesting option. Of course not all stall teams can easily fit a Pokemon to beat BP chains, but as long as there exist enough possibilities for stall teams that do beat BP chains, and I think they do, the overcentralization argument does not hold.
     
  28. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    .

    To be clear, uncompetitive technically means unnatural, but in a more extreme case. By unnatural, it means unnatural to the metagame it's used to. Because of this, if it's so unorthodox that it moves completely around what's normal with little issues, the metagame has a harder time dealing with it than other more commonly-known threats.

    My previous examples like Eviolite etc are all correct because they are not "meta" like Charizard etc, thus unnatural, thus can be classified as uncompetitive. However, my main argument was that not everything uncompetitive is broken or the other way around, but if something is too uncompetitive, the metagame cannot deal with it easily, making it unable to deal with it easily enough, making it broken.

    Everyone runs Stall in XY OU?

    Look, a lot of these examples are very theory-based (I've never seen Haze Quagsire nor understand the point of running it aside from Baton Pass). If you can use theories to build your arguments, so can we.

    In that case: as long as the Baton Pass team carries Ingrain BP Smeargle (fairly common) and Espeon (guaranteed) as well as a Sub and defense-ups set (almost all BP teams have this), the ONLY three things that can 100% stop the team is Haze, Clear Smog, and Perish Song, all of which uncommon. If every single team is forced to run either one of these, there is proof of overcentralization.

    Now, as you probably can tell, a lot of what I mentioned is pretty theoretical. This is to prove my point. You need cold hard facts in a Suspect Discussion, not just what can happen. Yes, you can run Mandibuzz or Haze Quagsire, but is it an ironclad stop or a theoretical stop?

    tl;dr, no evidence, no argument. Theory is nice, but it doesn't go anywhere without facts.

    If you're making a post to disprove overcentralization, you're using the topic wrong.

    Overcentralization isn't a reason to ban, it's a push to ban. Proving it helps ban something, but disproving it just says either the metagame can handle it without excessive need (seeing this is a Suspect discussion and most stops are theoretical, this is not the case) or the metagame isn't trying to overcentralize around it and is still broken because there's no focus on it. So, disproving it brings you back to the single question of broken or not broken, putting you back to start.

    Also, you just said what I was going to respond with: not all Stall teams can splash a BP counter. In that case, Stall's matchup isn't clear-cut. Also, what about offense? If you're going to say offense loses 100% to Baton Pass, that by itself is enough to ban it because offense is a GIANT part of the metagame and would force a complete shift, which is definition overcentralization. If you meant to leave that part out (and I am not accusing you in any way), you're hiding a pretty damn good reason to ban something!



    I'm still completely for limiting the amount of Baton Passers. Banning Baton Pass period is stupid, banning Espeon will not kill Baton Pass chains and will be much more harmful if anything, and doing nothing will not solve any problems because it's a problem that needs to be solved.
     
  29. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    What?

    We clearly used a different definition than this in past suspect such as Swagger and OHKO moves way back, in the sense that "uncompetitive" can be boiled down to "Let's flip a coin and see who wins!" Just because something is uncommon does not make it broken, it makes it uncommon. It's like suddenly losing to a Shedinja because you forgot rocks then wanting it banned. Go look at the Swagger suspect to see what I mean. It was mainly the coin flip aspect combined with very few things to prepare for it that made it too much for people to handle. Baton Pass isn't nearly as mindless(well, debatable to an extent as it stands with no pokemon banned) or luck dependent, as the term "uncompetitive" would leave people inclined to believe.

    There are very good arguments for and against banning Baton Pass, however being "uncompetitive" as we've used the word in earlier suspects is not one of them.

    Not going to comment on the rest because everyone knows I don't play OU, but people need to get their terms straight if they're going to throw them out. At least in terms of how they were used "correctly" in previous discussions.
     
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  30. Fixed

    Fixed Active Member

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    If I understand you correctly, your original argument was a brokenness argument. As I have said, I think that BP chains are not broken, mainly because of the extremely high risk involved (and implicitly, this means the metagame can deal with BP chains).

    No, but I was talking about the overcentralization argument, which goes BP always beats stall -> stall is not viable -> people are forced to run offense -> overcentralization -> BP has to be nerfed.

    I'm not exactly sure what you mean by theory-based, but Haze Quagsire is an actual thing used to break BP chains. It's not relevant if Haze is needed for anything else than BP. It can be discussed though how well Haze works against BP chains, as you can still get outstalled. The second part is just plain false, you can kill the BP mons before they boost their defenses.

    You aren't proving any point by writing false statements. I'm not sure what part of my post was too theoretical for you, but I'll rephrase my main point about Stall vs BP: I think Stall has enough resources to battle BP chains, including but not limited to common stall mons like Heatran, Venusaur, Mandibuzz and Quagsire as well as stallbreakers like Sableye and Gengar.

    I'm trying to show that BP doesn't have to be nerfed for the reason of overcentralization. If overcentralization isn't a reason to ban in the first place there is nothing left to prove.

    Offensive teams can easily use hard hitters to break BP chains, I thought that part should have been obvious. Stall teams are the 'problematic' ones as hard hitters (and especially multiple of those) don't fit on there.

    It seems that pro-nerf people are divided on the question whether an Espeon ban would be enough to nerf BP chains. It would be nice to see some discussion on this. I personally don't have anything to say, as I don't think there's anything wrong with BP chains even with Espeon.
     
  31. Hannah

    Hannah Come a little closer

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    So what I don't understand is now that Baton Pass has evolved to an actual playstyle rather than its previous position as a gimmick, people want it banned.

    Right now I'm seeing conflicting arguments of it being a playstyle then people arguing that preparing for this specific playstle is overcentralization? While baton pass did gain a bunch of buffs, it also opened up a myriad of offensive threats as well as counters to the playstyle. The key word in this argument is playstyle. This thread has now finally accepted that Baton Pass is one. Just because its win condition is linear does not invalidate the strategy. Does this mean that the 6 dragspam back then was fully acceptable despite being what you called brainless playing?

    The entire notion of having to nerf a playstyle that has consistently been a threat that has been dealt with through different generations is bullshit. The same groan people have when fighting Baton pass is the same groan a lot of the newbies have when they face stall. "I didnt prepare for this and I dont want to fight this because i want to win my way. " Now that it has been acknowledged as the actual threat it is, people want to excuse not adjusting to a playstyle to keep their mundane mindset than Baton Pass will forever remain taboo.
     
  32. Undefeated

    Undefeated .To hax, learn to be haxed.

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    Undefeated.
    Baton Pass... Not Skill.
    It isn't a playstyle lol.
    Honchkrow best counter.
     
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  33. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    Baton Pass requires a unique preparation that can be totally useless for any other playstyle -> for example, Haze: totally useless move for everything but BPass. A team without Haze or faster and powerful stuff that can kill immediatly statupping (not always possible tho, look at those screens+memento+geocottonsmeargle or anyway scolipede+vaporeon+mew+espeon can stop powerful threats themself - smeargle+mr.mime is needed just for psong+dtail+ingrain+sleep move+statupping, when zapdos is needed if u feel weak to MegaPinsir, Talonflame and Breloom) so you gotta run too much preparation for what should be a gimmick playstyle just to don't lose at the preview? This is what I call being broken so I think bpass chains are broken. Solutions to this? Ban BPass+boosting move should be the eradication of the evil root, ban bpass is a similar solution but too punitive, indeed bpass is also a "turn" move other than cancerous statup passing. Ban Espeon is too way crazy lol Espeon w/out BPass is kinda bad and BPass w/out Espeon will be surely weaker but not garbage. Xatu, Clefable, Sylveon can do a similar job, or just replace espeon with xatu as bouncer and add another stored sweeper (or a common recipient) so tl;dr banning espeon won't solve nothing.
    Reducing BPass user can quite be useful but the new "1-mon bpass" can work too: screens+tailwind+memento+gothi+smeargle+espeon and here we are back again. That's why I think banning bpass+boosting moves is the right solution (it also stops cancerous quickpass shellpass etc -always being considered "uncompetitive"/"lamer"/"dickstuff"-), at least reducing to ONE mon or at least ban Bpass.
     
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  34. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    I'm on board with some of the things Hannah said but I think what Cameltoed said is pertinent - that countering Bpass requires preparation that's so specific and situational and otherwise useless in OU. I used to be on the no ban side of things until I really paid attention to how out of hand it actually is and how specifically you had to prepare for a playstyle on a team in which moveslots are usually tight as is - having to gimp your pokemon to not auto-lose to an extremely specific set up is something I definitely think is indicative of something being highly unhealthy or broken. That a large majority of teams simply have to pray for a crit against a Bpass team that has managed to get going for more than like 3 turns is unhealthy, that a match vs a Bpass team makes it so that prediction is strongly skewed in favour of the Bpass team is unhealthy.

    I support banning more than 2 baton pass users per team, it's the fairest way because it prevents full bpass teams which are the issue here but allows people to use other strategies if they want to (attempting more than one baton pass to a sweeper in a game is not unfair nor is anyone considering it broken)
     
  35. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-17008

    here is a replay to show u how a single bpass user can work as a whole bpass chain (this is the reason why I changed my mind about reducing bpass user and now I think banning bpass+statupmoves is better)

    BPassChains only needs a thing to get always a 95% win (5% lose ratio consists in: Sableye / TauntKnockOff Thundurus / PranksterEncore / Trick / PranksterHaze / Hax): not being dumb.

    Only thing you have to hope when facing a bpass without prankster stuff (pretty unviable for every other matchup) is: "HAX" (but it doesn't let u win everytime lol) or "Do a bad move pls". If a player is almost decent and know what to do, he will always win with bpass in a non-haxed match vs every matchup ain't got prankstertaunt+darkmove/encore/haze. That's why it's broken
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2014
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  36. Rage.

    Rage. [Hero] and [LGI]

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    [Hero]Zapdos.
    banning BP as a move > banning BP + statup. Simply because the complexity of the ban isn't necessary when no one uses BP as a scouting move/escaping from pursuit anymore, especially since BP+statup is not a banning option in the OP.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2014
  37. hiphiphooray

    hiphiphooray New Member

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    @Sinclair, just to clarify, this thread is only for banning Baton Pass in the OU tier correct? So even if a complex Ban occurs, full Baton Pass chains will still be a viable playstyle in the remaining tiers?

    I see no reason why full Baton Pass chains should be eliminated from the game entirely. Just as a quick comment (I'll have a more detailed post later), I would like to say that the suggested complex ban is very unprecedented.

    When weather was introduced, we could have introduced a complex ban to eliminate those playstyles, but we didn't. Instead specific abusers of the playstyles we're banned. Likewise, there are many great hyper offensive threats and stall pokemon that have been banned, but both playstyles still exist.

    I think this thread needs to ask itself, are we really trying to eliminate an entire playstyle from the game?
    Is it so beyond broken that the entire playstyle should cease to exist? Is it really so annoying to face that we should never allow anyone to play it?

    Once we have answered this question we should begin to look for more ideal solutions.

    @Sinclair, are addtional ban options still up for debate?

    If a complex ban is required, there are much better options available that will not eliminate an entire playstyle, such as:

    Banning Magic Bounce on full Baton Pass chains.
    Banning Ingrain on full Baton Pass chains.
    Banning the combination of Scolipede and Espeon together.
    Etc.

    Most people will agree that Baton Pass is weak to Hyper Offense and very strong against Stall. Perhaps we should be looking at a solution that helps stall teams compete rather than eliminating the entire playstyle of Baton Pass all together.


    Thanks for reading. I'll be back with a more indepth response once these questions are clarified!
     
  38. Proof

    Proof Well-Known Member

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    @hiphiphooray If any of these bans occur, it will occur in the lower tiers as well.
     
  39. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Both Xatu and Smeargle are NU.
     
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  40. Rage.

    Rage. [Hero] and [LGI]

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    [Hero]Zapdos.
    lol

    @hiphiphooray only espeon, sylveon and zappy actually ou concerning the standard passchain. once espeon drops to uu, which will occur since espy has its main niche in ou on bp, bpchains will still be a problem in uu. mrmime will replace sylveon and zapdos isnt necessary in a birdspam-less tier. this is why we want to ban it from the whole gen6 metagame except ubers . any bans occuring in ou are for the metagames below ou aswell, however it will stay not banned in ubers, because this is an ou suspect, it will work just like it did w/ swagger (iirc its banned from ubers too, but was banned seperately).
     
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