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Deoxys-D Suspect Discussion

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Discussion' started by Sinclair, Aug 11, 2014.

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  1. Sinclair

    Sinclair Call me the Pokemon Demigod

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    [​IMG]

    Discuss the possibility of Deoxys-D being banned from the XY OU tier. Use this thread to discuss Deoxys-D's effect on the metagame. Talk about the different sets it can use, good partners and potential checks/counters. State your opinion on whether you think Deoxys-D should be banned or if it should stay in the XY OU tier but make sure your posts are backed up by experience and knowledge. Anyone who makes post based on theorymon risks being infracted. This thread will be up for a minimum of two weeks.

    Important notes:
    -Stay on topic.
    -Post intelligently.
    -Make meaningful posts. If your post doesn't contain any content, it is prone to being deleted. For example, posts that agree/don't agree with a certain point without any justification or explanation.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2014
  2. Rohail

    Rohail Active Member

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    Hi, so I have been very vocal about a Deoxys-D ban, and I'll explain why.

    IT'S JUST TOO GOOD AT SUPPORTING TEAMS. Deo-D's huge bulk, decent Speed, and expansive support movepool makes it THE supporter for offensive Pokemon. Deo-D sets up at least two layers of hazards most of the time, and those hazards go a long way in supporting offensive behemoths like Mega Mawile, Bisharp, Thundurus, Landorus, Keldeo, Greninja, etc. in breaking down their checks and counters to be able to easily sweep. Furthermore, Deo-D doesn't have any universal check because it has a way to fuck up everything that can potentially stop it.

    Deo-D's movepool always consists of Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Taunt, and the last slot goes to screwing up Deo-D's checks or providing the team with more support. Magic Coat destroys Aegislash and Gengar while Superpower with the right investment OHKOes Bisharp. If you use Red Card Deo-D, you can avoid using these moves because Deo-D is guaranteed to survive at least one hit barring a crit, which makes it so that Red Card shuffles the team around to hopefully land a Pokemon which Deo-D can continue to set up on. This means that you don't need to worry about the Pokemon above too much and can go with either Thunder Wave or Recove; the former slows down Pokemon for Mega Mawile and the like to sweep through, while Recover lets Deo-D heal up in front of a slow/weak Red Card shuffle victim while letting Deo-D continue to set up throughout the match if it comes in on the right Pokemon (anything slower that can't 2HKO it, which OU has a lot of). Deo-D can also even use Skill Swap to beat random Magic Bounce mons, but it's too inconsistent given the rarity of said mons. Lastly, Deo-D has the potential to avoid faster Taunts from the likes of Thundurus, Terrakion, Gengar, Sableye, and Deo-S with Mental Herb, so that's also not a reliable way to beat it either.

    Now, removing the hazards Deo-D sets up late-game seemingly balances it out, but it's wayyyyy easier said than done, because Deo-D offense teams can easily prepare for hazard removing tactics, and if you do manage to remove the hazards, you practically give the opposing team a free turn, which is devastating because of the offensive nature of Deo-D teams. Gen 6 gave us Defog to make hazard control easier, but we have perfectly viable ways of using the opponent's Defog against them: with Defiant. OU has two excellent Defiant users in Bisharp and Thundurus, both of which are viable in their roles and can put a dent in the opposing team at +2, even if you carry specific checks. Bisharp has excellent coverage in its STABs, but more importantly, it has priority Sucker Punch to dismantle offense while also having STAB Knock Off to destroy defensive builds. Thundurus sits at an amazing Speed tier, while it has the coverage and power to steamroll through teams at +2. Even Rapid Spin doesn't get the job done, because Deo-D teams almost always carry Air Balloon Exca to wall it and effectively prevent the spin. Even if Excadrill predicts the Aegi switch and goes for Iron Head + EQ, it will have given the deo-d user a free switch into anything to force Exca out, and because of Exca's poor bulk, it will find it very difficult to some in again and remove the hazards.

    Overall, the cancerous HO environment that Deo-D creates with its support is too much for OU to handle, especially because removing Deo-D's support has devastating consequences that can potentially lose you the game. For these reasons, I think Deo-D is broken and should be banned from OU.
     
    Finchinator likes this.
  3. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    Deoxys-D is not overwhelming in the OU tier. At only 90 speed, it is a rather slow offensive suicide lead, outsped by many viable Taunt users such as Gliscor and Mew. Psychic is not an ideal defensive type in a tier rife with U-turn, Knock Off, and Aegislash, and Deo-D will struggle to get into play if forced out. There are a few items such as Mental Herb and Red Card that can be used to ameliorate its weaknesses once, but it is not guaranteed to actually help if the team your facing has other means for stopping it than the one you prepared for with your item. The synergy with Defiant Bisharp is undeniable, but it isn't game-breaking; in fact, I think it would be a shame to lose that part of the metagame. Deoxys-D can be stopped before setting up more than 2 hazards (at worst) by most teams, and many can run anti-leads, or simply strong attackers, which stop it altogether. 2 hazards isn't overwhelming, and with a little counter-pressure, spinning them away, or Defoging them - Bisharp can't switch in on Mandibuzz / Latios etc forever - isn't as challenging as it is made out to be. Deoxys-D almost lacks offensive presence altogether, and a Taunted Deoxys-D is dead weight. In this tier, medium-fast Taunts are not hard to come by, and strong Ghost/Dark attacks are common. Hazards can be removed, and if that's all Deoxys-D can contribute, then it lacks the impact to be a consideration for ban.
     
  4. Rage.

    Rage. [Hero] and [LGI]

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    [Hero]Zapdos.
    it happened, we must be strong now

    Deoxys-D @ Mental Herb / Red Card
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 24 SDef / 232 Spd (most people run 252HP/Spd Timid but this one is better)
    Calm Nature
    - Taunt
    - Thunder Wave / Magic Coat
    - Spikes
    - Stealth Rock

    This is our lovely suicide DeoD set. Access to SR and Spikes make it one of the top tier pokemon. In addition to that it has a great bulk, helping it set up against defensive teams. Taunt can suppress Defog users and Thunder Wave makes it outpace Latios. Spikes allow sweepers (often priority-based ones like Lucario and Bisharp) to kill revenge-killers, which SR alone wouldn't be enough for and get past defensive checks. Balloon Aegislash is found on many Deoxys-D teams to spinblock Excadrill. It also fixes other weaknesses of Deoxys-D, being Swords Dance Focus Sash Garchomp, for example. With Bisharp to benefit from opposing Defog, they form the standard DeoAegiSharp core which supports Deo-D and allows keeping the hazards up more easily. Bisharp isn't obligatory though, since Taunt on Deo-D can pressure defoggers on itself, but it's a lot safer to carry a Bisharp or Thundy. The leftover 3-4 slots are filled with mons that are all focussed on pressuring the opposing team, revenging sweepers, balancing the synergy and pressuring defoggers. By the way, Mental herb is the better item in general because Red Card + Twave sucks (i.e. Greninja stands in front of Deo-D and gets out with the help of red card. Wanted to para? Oh, fail), having Twave is always nice though.

    Checks? Anything able to 2HKO can lead against it and limit to SR or SR+Spikes. Landorus, Keldeo, ZardX and Y, Greninja, Aegislash (BallSneak), NP Thundurus, MMawile, MPinsir, CB Talonflame, Bisharp, MTyranitar, LO Drill (is played with sand rush), Mega Heracross, SD Garchomp and iirc Breloom all can 2HKO.

    One may argue that it still gets hazards up, which is true, but hazard removal is still possible, since Deo-D teams often rely on choicers like Keldeo to build up pressure and a Latios just needs one free turn. Even if Bisharp gets the defiant boost you just need something to RK it at +2. Stall also has a realistic chance after defogging and then having Quag wall Sharp. Having used Deo-D a lot I found out that most wallbreakers are still walled by one stall member that they can't really kill or 2HKO or anything. Mega Hera has a huge attack but it still must bow down to Gliscor and Clefable. This isn't the best example because these mons aren't susceptible to hazards, but you get my point. The pokemon has a high attack but still doesn't get past a certain wall. The next argument would be have a mon to kill this wall. It still gets walled by another wall. The hazard stacking allows the wallbreakers to play around this problem. That and the fact that enough 'mons can 2HKO it easily and are quite common in the tier, and the predictability, unlike Deo-S which I'm pro-ban for only because unpredictable, are the main reasons why I want to keep DeoD.
     
    Liarliarpantsonfire likes this.
  5. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    Is this really the time to do this?

    Not that this isn't controversial or anything, but is this really the time to Suspect this?

    I mean, we are already Suspecting Deoxys-S, who is much more unstable as both a supporter and staller than Deoxys-D. Don't you think we should take care of DeoS THEN take care or DeoD?

    Aside from that, I can't say anything that's different from what's being said and I'm neutral for this. However, the timing for this Suspect is just too early.
     
    Rage. likes this.
  6. meeps

    meeps administrator xd

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    lol

    @Whereabouts Unknown why are you bringing up gliscor and mew as taunt users?? while there are some taunt users capable of shutting down deo-d (thundurus is probably most notable, some other leads like terrakion and deoxys-s too i guess. sableye could be mentioned too but im not really a fan of it, the ou environment is too hostile for it honestly. gliscor literally never runs max speed and taunt isn't even seen that much, gliscor doesn't even come close to shutting down deo-d. mew like gliscor, is never seen with max speed (generally no more than to outspeed max speed excadrill) and it also isn't too common period. running taunt makes it forego a move like defog, stealth rock, or an attacking move (ice beam is really nice on mew). seems to be a common misconception that deo-d always has to be a suicude lead, it doesn't need to stay in vs pokemon which can harm it, and it doesn't have to lead if there are pokemon that harm it (team preview is really nice!!). with its bulk, deo-d can find instances to switch-in on some attacks and proceed to setup hazards. also sr and spikes is extremely threatening, i dont get where you're coming from saying "2 hazards isn't overwhelming", it makes it a shitton easier for offensive pokemon to 2hko potential switch-ins. for example standard stall is more likely to be destroyed by knock off lando with sr and spikes up, given chansey (typical lando-i check on stall teams) cannot survive knock off (switching in) + focus blast with sr and spikes, when it could potentially stall it out without hazards on the field. another example is cb dragonite almost always 2hko max hp heatran with outrage with hazards unless heatran has protect, and it still has a great chance to be 2hko. these are just some examples there are plenty more, also something to take note of is if hazards aren't removed the hazard damage will just stack up, and hyper offense teams with deo-d are easily capable of forcing switches. so yeah, add up all the hazard damage and potential damage which may be taken on switch-ins, it's pretty obvious even sr and just one layer of spikes can be overwhelming (also not to mention sr is one of the best moves in the game). mandibuzz still has problems against deo-d offense teams considering the offensive pressure makes it tough for it to safely switch-in (dont even bother bringing up it can switch into deo-d cuz it'll just get taunted and let deo-d setup more hazards for free) and may need to switch-in by means of coming in after a teammate has died to attempt to defog. if bisharp comes in, mandibuzz is virtually forced to die or switch out, and nothing in the tier will like switching into a +2 bisharp bar like quagsire i guess. latios/latias can be more effective when it comes to defogging against deosharp teams considering they're fast and strong, latios will generally run hp fire or fighting, but latias usually doesn't so it's easier to bring in bisharp vs latias, but if one does defog against bisharp, they're probably going to have problems with it unless they have something like keldeo and predict well i guess. also you seem to completely disregard magic coat is standard on deo-d (afaik sr / spikes / magic coat / taunt is standard in high level tour play) making it tough for taunt users to effectively shut down deo-d (thundurus is def the best in this case tho, as it forces deo-d users to predict well vs it).

    @Rage. deo-d gets up hazards easily on stall teams, skarmory and mandibuzz are the common defog users which may be found on stall teams (skarm is more common), deo-d can taunt them if left alive, and deo-d's partners generally provide offensive pressure making it tough to safely bring in defog user, bisharp doesn't necessarily need to come in and take advantage of the defog boost always. most stall teams generally have problems with lando-i especially if hazards get up, sd heracross is capable of breaking through clefable and gliscor, like in the uu suspect discussion for deo-d, the fact it gets 2hko'd by x doesn't mean much, deo-d is still perfectly capable of getting up sufficient hazards.
     
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  7. MUMU

    MUMU Just a random Haxer nOOb

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    What the others already said, it runs Mostly Predictable sets , suicide hazard lead with either red card or mental herb, Red Card set often being taunt bait. It has a speed below almost every "fast" pokemon in the tier , offensive non set up pokemon such as charizard y and landorus outspeed and 2hko , where pokemon such as charizard x can outright set up on it , as it's basically set up bait in those situation in case of mental herb, powerful super effective attacks like dark types and attacks from scizor and aegislash are quite common too and 2hko it with ease. Magic Bounce Destroys it, it has negligable attack power , meaning usually next to no offensive threat outside of the rare superpower to hit specific pokemon , it has a decent match-up against stall , however stall teams usually have a reliable way to deal with both itself and it's hazards , as defoggers can defog hazards away after it fainted , and stall team defoggers easily have enough bulk to do so consistently . In addition, it is also checked (bar magic coat) by the rare (but viable) fast taunt users in some stall . It's a good support pokemon , but clearly not broken.

    No-Ban
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2014
    Liarliarpantsonfire likes this.
  8. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    Imo Deoxys-D, as every Deoxys in every OU gen past this, deserves to be banned (and I always wonder why all forms get unbanned every time ._.)

    When Deo-S can set hazards easily thanks to its speed, Deo-D can do the same job thanks to its bulkyness. Magic Coat can prevent being taunted by faster stuff (though there aren't many faster taunters in this tier besides Thundurus, not so used w/Taunt, Terrakion, not so common cuz Aegi), Taunt cripples every other slower mon (sticky setters, slower sr setters etc), Twave nerf almost everything statupping on it, Red Card shuffles boosting stuff and can prevent a sweep in many occasions. There's also Rocky Helmet set w/Recover that has a huge staying power so that means huge chance to setting hazards everytime. Deo-D can help vs Stall thx to Pressure, tho it's not surely one of its best qualities but that's it. If you don't want to let it set more than 1 hazards 100% u always have to lead w/certain mons (Bisharp, Aegislash, the disappeared CBZor..) but that's too predictable and can help Deo-D user to be threatened.

    Ban
     
  9. Undefeated

    Undefeated .To hax, learn to be haxed.

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    Undefeated.
    Uhm, Deo-D should not be banned.

    Deo-D is a good setter, but let's think for a moment and analyze a game in mind.
    the opponent starts with deo-d and sect sr and 1 spike, we use an offense with Latias / keldeo / genies / mvenu / Heatran.
    once dead deoD We are looking for to get with Latias to use defog and the opponent will come with Bisharp obv, but Latias die When we can enter with keldeo and kill it, then the opponent will be at -1 to -2 while we, I made an example of why it is keldeo top usage, but let's not forget that Terrakion stops him completely as if Bisharp uses sucker punch, Terrakion receive a +1 atk and if it's scarf, gg.
    talking about the fellow would say that the best known are the genies, mega Manectric, Bisharp.
    these can be stopped well enough Latias + keldeo, a core pretty well known, not to mention the stall that does not particularly suffer from these types of teams, except in cases where there was a cmind Landorus, then again, I am against the ban.
     
    Liarliarpantsonfire likes this.
  10. Sinclair

    Sinclair Call me the Pokemon Demigod

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    After reviewing this discussion with @MetalGross we have decided to ban Deoxys-D from XY OU.
    Hazard stacking with one pokemon creates an unhealthy metagame. While Deoxys-D is almost never OHKO'd by anything in the metagame it can get up at least 1-2 hazards and sometimes more. It can taunt most defoggers as it's faster than all but two, and can cripple faster defoggers with Thunder Wave in order to keep hazards up. It can shuffle around a team with a Red Card as it's item, and can also reliably get up several layers of hazards with a SR/Spikes/Recover/Taunt set so we have deemed this pokemon broken in XY OU.
    Locking thread.
     
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