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[Monotype] Drought Suspect

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Side Metagames' started by sulcata, Aug 21, 2014.

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  1. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Discuss the effects of Drought on the Monotype metagame and the possibility of banning it. Post intelligently based off of experience in the metagame. Posts based off theorymon risk forum infractions.

    Attempt to find the checks and counters (or lack thereof) for Drought teams as well as their impact and power in the metagame. Do not simply say "it's broken" or "it's not broken". Back up your arguments on why you think it should be banned or not.

    If a consensus is reached, the result will likely be implemented in the metagame. Happy suspecting.
     
  2. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    This is gonna be a fun suspect. Mainly because it forces me to go into the workshop and play mono fire more to get a better grasp on some type match ups, but for the most part I have seen and used this enough to get where this goes.

    The big keys with Drought to keep in mind are:
    There are 2 auto setters. One has access to Heat Rock and the other hits like a friggin' 18 wheeler. Manual users... well. lol
    Although the Chlorophyll abuse is not present, the boost to Fire type STAB moves decimates every neutral match up Fire has.
    Water teams suddenly become manageable with reliable Solarbeams and the weakened power of Water moves when the Sun is up.
    It is WAY too easy to maintain Drought for the entire duration of matches.
    Under the Sun (so easy to set up and maintain), Fire has two of the SCARIEST Pokemon in the game being Victini and Chari-Y (as well as countless others).

    This leads me to the point where I discuss how you handle this offensively and defensively. I'll keep it short and sweet because there isn't too much I need to expand on.
    Defensively - Hope you live hits and make plays. Set up Rocks to get mons into KO range for your offensive pokes. (Use weather if you have it. Still risky, but that risk is EVERYTHING)
    Offensively - Outspeed and hope you get KO's. Abuse Rocks. (See what is in parenthesis above)
    It is honestly that simple. I'm not gonna do my Fire vs (insert type here) post yet because I need to get a a bit more knowledge on some match ups and would rather do it all at once.

    Also, a note, SR weaknesses have nothing to do with Drought if people decide to bring that up.
    And this. Dragon is probably the hardest match for Fire.
    This too. Sp.D Chari Y is a solid Defogger.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2014
  3. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    After trying a fair bit of mono-fire myself, I'd like to share my opinion on Drought in this post. I mostly agree with what Celebi has said; Drought is an amazing ability for Fire-type teams, not only does it boost Fire-type attacks by 50% it also halves the damage taken from water-type moves. Mega Charizard Y is the primary threat, as with 159 Sp.Atk and Drought it's Fire STABs decimate everything that doesn't resist. It also carries Solarbeam to destroy opposing water types. Ninetales is the other auto-setter and can also carry Heat rock to prolong Drought's duration to 8 turns, providing even more team support. With sun on, Fire teams possess dangerous threats like Victini, Darmanitan and Chandelure which can KO opposing mons with their STAB fire attacks, even if they resist. Drought makes neutral matchups and Mono water much easier to handle for Fire-types.

    The absence of Chlorophyll abusers definitely hurt it's prospects, and considering none of the Drought abusers possess high speed stats, they are prone to be revenge killed. The SR weakness also doesn't help, as it hurts both of the Drought-setter's chances of switching in and out repeatedly (Celebi mentioned Char-Y as a solid defogger, but it takes 50% damage from SR while switching in, and considering the fast-paced nature of monotype matches you rarely get 2 free turns to defog + roost).

    I'm really on the edge regarding this one; I would like to listen to other opinions.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2014
  4. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    I've had a few people ask me why Charizard-Y isn't being suspected instead of Ninetales. Obviously Charizard-Y is a lot bulkier and a ton stronger with arguably better support moves in Roost and Defog. Not going to bother elaborating, but in my opinion Zard-Y is broken itself, whether on Fire or Flying.

    The reason Drought is being suspected is because of Fire monotypes. Already powerful Pokemon like Darmanitan, Chandelure, Victini, Entei, and so on have amazing attacking power boosted to ungodly levels. Most Monotypes (as I'll elaborate below) can't stand up to onslaught of attacks and almost always have to fodder something off to get a safe switch in. Being forced to fodder off parts of one's team so often leads to a really one-dimensional and unhealthy metagame in which both sides simply spam attacks attempting to be the first to KO.

    Without Drought most of these Pokemon miss out on important 2HKOs which dramatically increases the number of checks (and counters) available.

    Ground - Sand Rush threatening to sweep, Stealth Rock everywhere along with sandstorm damage, and Hippo threatening to catch you mid solar beam means Ground still has the advantage.

    Water - Loses pretty badly since its one way have hitting fire types super effectively is more or less taken away and not much can take repeated Solar Beams to the face. The reason this is so much more powerful than regular Sunny Day teams is that you don't have to worry about outspeeding. All that's required is switching into a "neutral" STAB move, which Ninetales can do pretty well with its special bulk and Zard-Y with its recovery. Sap Sipper AssVest Azumarill I guess?

    Normal - Unless Chansey is has Eviolite knocked off or tricked away it can sponge pretty much all of the special attackers in and out of the sun. Physical attackers are a different story though. I don't see anything that can reliably switch in to Victini, Darmanitan, Entei, etc. while sun is up. Almost all of them are 2HKO'd. I guess you could use Thick Fat Snorlax or physically defensive Porygon2, but Entei can burn both while Darmanitan can just Superpower (which is a great move for taking down rocks as well).

    Fighting - Terrakion and Infernape can spam Stone Edge and Earthquake I guess. Stone Edge is sort of awkward to be locked into with the 1/5 chance to miss and EQ is just Talon bait. Rocks go a long way for that as long as Fighting can keep them up. Fighting has to play Terrakion really, really well to force plays while keeping rocks up, which personally makes me think Fire has the advantage since Fighting is essentially relying on one poke that takes heavy damage from Talonflame. Once terrak is out of the picture it's downhill from there.

    Flying - Strong Flying/Rock types to threaten a counter offensive. Dragonite can set up in front of just about anything assuming multiscale is intact. Gyarados is pretty helpful with EQ/Waterfall and Intimidate. I'd say Flying has a pretty good advantage here.

    Fairy - A little bit of the same situation as Normal. Decent special walls. Sylveon and Togekiss die to any crits though, so not nearly as reliable. Klefki can help mitigate their speed and Azumarill and Mega Mawile can go a long way to clean up. If you get Rocks up early with Diancie or Clefable you could force them to switch some obvious pokemon in such as Torkoal or Charizard-Y and act accordingly to get off paralysis or heavy damage. In terms of physical attackers you really just have Diancie who is on a timer without reliable recovery, though to be honest Fire doesn't have a whole lot to damage it. I'd say the matchup is leaning towards neutral.

    Dragon - Can't really spam Fire STABS and you don't have a whole lot of super effective moves to hit them with. Fire's only Dragon resist is Heatran who's weak to the omnipresent Earthquake on Dragon teams. Strongly in Dragon's favor.

    Psychic - Relies on Latias and Latios. Deoxys-D/S can really help in getting Rocks and Spikes up which will rapidly wear down the team. Volcarona can be dangerous if the Psychic team isn't hyper offensive as one setup turn is almost always fatal unless Victini is high on health or scarfed. Psychic has enough checks and pivots to wear down Fire pretty quickly.

    Ice, Steel, Grass, and Bug obviously lose pretty hard with or without Drought. Only Steel has a decent chance with Heatran and Empoleon (Drought hurts Empoleon a lot though). Crustle can set up for Bug, but it's almost always revenged by Talonflame or Infernape.

    Poison, Ghost, Electric, and Dark are pretty hard pressed to get a good Fire resist. Most of the fire resists (Tentacruel, Rotom-W, Greninja, Jellicent, etc.) are either weak to EQ or Solar Beam (both of which are moderately common on Fire monos) or they are just frail and can't take Sun-boosted Fire STABs regardless of their resistance. If Dark can get Rocks up, then Hydreigon can spam Dracos or Surfs to muscle through. Sucker Punches from things like Bisharp and Honchkrow can help pick off the weaker users. I haven't really faced these a whole lot with Fire (outside of Electric), although the few I have faced lost pretty bad.

    Obviously this list has a lot of opinionated points and shouldn't be taken as an absolute truth. I do believe based on my analysis that Fire has way too many 'neutral' matchups turned heavily in its favor by Drought, not to mention gaining an absolute advantage over Water.
     
  5. Raducan

    Raducan Well-Known Member

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    The reason why Drought is so effective is because of the overwhelming power that comes with the Pokemon that can abuse it.

    There is also no shortage of Drought starters. Ninetales / Charizard-Y do a great job. Obviously the main problem with Drought teams is Stealth Rock. However, not a lot of Mono-teams can force many switches, which is what Stealth Rock is mainly effective for. It is extremely hard to force a switch when you're pinned back by a Sun-boosted Fire Blast or Flare Blitz. You can also run a support Charizard-Y set for Defog, however uncommon.

    Drought teams forces the course of the plays to be really linear. For most Monotypes, there is really no solid answer for Sub-boosted STAB attacks. There are the Sand and Dragon-type teams that do have a favorable matchup against Drought, but for the most part, Drought is really effective against most types in the tier.
     
  6. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    You should get those people to contribute to the discussion! I was going to do something similar with my opinions on Fire vs other types but this didn't get as much discussion as I would have hoped. Fire definitely gets most, if not all of its neutral/slightly disadvantaged match ups turned in its favor. I'd really only give the advantage to Dragon. Ground is a noticeable advantage, but Hippowdon must stay healthy at literally all costs. With that being said I have found that match up (Dragon) incredibly easy to work around spamming random Ice moves of mons that it can fit on (i.e. Glaciate Victini, HP Ice Volc) From my testing teams just can't take hits and it becomes a "fodder my mon and hope to KO one of yours to even the playing field" match. This often times puts Fire teams at a massive advantage.

    A lot of the mons chosen have naturally high base speeds in combination with that crazy power boost. It is like a slightly nerfed Drizzle. The only difference being the lack of a speed boost from the weather of choice.

    Also, @Draciel
    Defensive Zard X and Y both function pretty well as defoggers, but I find Zard Y to be better because it sets up the sun to support the team. It also takes hits like a monster. It's rather scary. It isn't incredibly difficult to keep healthy and puts quite a bit of offensive pressure on teams despite having no Sp.A EV's.
     
  7. .Rawr!

    .Rawr! c(°3°)כ

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    Well, like i was one user pushing for a drought (or at least char-y) suspect in the general discussion thread, i can as well post my thoughts here:

    Weather in monotype was always a controversial point, not for nothing in gen 5 politoed, ninetales, hippowdon were banned from monotype for the inherent help they brought to their types with permanent weather, while abomasnow and tyranitar were left only because their types were already bad without them.
    This gen instead weather in general was nerfed: weather abilities only last 5 turns now (8 if holding a rock), weather moves as well. This brought to the death of ice stall, a new push for sand rush excadrill like hippowdon was unbanned, while drizzle was deemed broken again for bring walbreaking potential for water move and speed to its abusers.

    And now drought, the only weather which can use 2 setters in the same team for monotype, so 5 turns of char-y + 8 turns of ninetales = potentially 13 turns of sunlight again no-weather opponents (and it can be longered by switch-ins)
    The advantages it bring specially to fire monotype are not bad at all: while it don't give the speed boost of drizzle, it gives wallbreaking boost for fire moves, and what its better it gives neutrality to water attacks, amazing feature. Also, it allow fire monos to spam solarbeam with no drawbacks again water, rock and ground opponents.
    If these traits alone make drought already broken, the icing in the cake is Charizard-Y. Its fire blast in sun hits like a fucking meteor everything no being dragon type, again water and rock types it have solar beam so yeah...

    Tl;dr: if it wasn't clear enough, ban drought, or what is better ban Charizard-Y
     
  8. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Alright, the general opinion seems to strongly lean towards banning Drought and I haven't really seen good arguments against banning. As such Drought will be banned in Monotype whenever @Crystal Moogle gets the chance to update the tiers.

    Thank you all for participating.
     
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