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[Monotype] Gengarite Suspect Discussion

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Side Metagames' started by sulcata, Aug 31, 2014.

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  1. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Discuss the effects of Mega Gengar (Gengarite) on the Monotype metagame and the possibility of banning it. Post intelligently based off of experience in the metagame. Posts based off theorymon risk forum infractions.

    Attempt to find the checks and counters (or lack thereof) for Mega Gengar as well as their impact and power in the metagame. Do not simply say "it's broken" or "it's not broken". Back up your arguments on why you think it should be banned or not.

    If a consensus is reached, the result will likely be implemented in the metagame. Happy suspecting.
     
  2. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    No one's posted so I figure I might as well.

    I think Gengarite should be banned from Monotype. Shadow Tag allows Megagengar to trap and kill much of the metagame with ease. Unlike Gothitelle or Wobba, MegaGengar has a great typing, amazing special attack, and speed. Combined, these increase the amount of things that Gengar can trap when compared to the other trapping options in monotype.

    What makes Gengar so broken in my opinion, is it's ability to single-handedly destroy any form of defensive team style or core. With access to Taunt, Destiny Bond, and extremely powerful attacks, Megagengar can either whittle away at special walls or simply destroy physical walls. This opens huge holes for things like Aegislash or Nidoking (essentially any sweeper) to come in and start getting kills with their counters removed. MegaGengar essentially makes any and all defensive pokemon a liability. MegaGengar doesn't just stop with defensive Pokemon, since it still has more than enough power and speed to take out offensive threats, without letting them even switch out, though it is limited mostly to revenge killing.
     
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  3. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Tournament Host Forum Moderator Tournament Host

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    Xdevo is completely right, it can also use Perish song but is more situational I guess, it has to go because it stops certain defensive Pokémon to breath in a so heavily offensive tier.
     
  4. lightningjohnesystrike13d

    lightningjohnesystrike13d Just call me Johnes, please!

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    I'm a new member to this websites but i already playing Pokemon since many years ago, Gengarite is pretty much take my attention. When i look at MegaGengar i notice these catchy looking stat :

    HP-60
    Atk-65
    Def-80
    Sp.Atk-170
    Sp.Def-95
    Speed-130

    that one amazing stat (which Xdevo already said that MegaGengar has great typing,amazing special attack and speed)+ Mega Gengar has a lot of move set to use, means it can "possibly" destroy entire team (i think). It can sure take down destructive tanks even the special ones (like Sylveon, Blissey, Mega Venusaur and even boosted Quagsire [with recover,amnesia,curse/toxic,waterfall/earthquake]) with taunt,destiny bond,sludge bomb, and shadow ball (or other Special attack move) and even take out some great Physical attacker and Special attacker such life-orb Greninja, mega Charizard X, and other Pokemon.

    what makes Mega Gengar weak is Focus sash user, choice scarf user and priority moves (ability prankster and Gale wings is included) can revenge kill Mega Gengar or simply weakening Mega Gengar so it can be easily to taken out but looking at the stat and move poll with considering Mega Gengar ability (shadow tag) and potential. I pretty sure that Gengarite will be banned from Monotype.
     
  5. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    In terms of a suspect discussion, Focus Sash and Choice Scarf users rarely create a strong argument (It seems like you were arguing for, but I wanted to address this anyway). Focus Sash users tend to succumb quite easily to residual damage and hazards making it incredibly unreliable in a tier where hazards are so widely used. Focus Sash users also cannot switch in to Mega Gengar lest they risk losing their item and being outsped in the next turn due to Gengar's superb 130 Speed stat. Choice Scarf users are slightly better in that most don't need to worry about being outsped, but they still will be unable to repeatedly take hits from Mega Gengar and have the downside of locking themselves into possibly unfavorable moves (think Scarf Lando-T EQ as one switches into Trevenant).

    Perish Trapping is an option, though I haven't found it quite as effective in the Monotype metagame as nobody seems to run stall or defense. I've found it quite difficult to deal with on my Fairy teams, which is to be expected. In theory and practice it should severely plague my MonoWater team, but I haven't really faced many who know what they're doing with Mega Gengar. Of course bad plays aren't a reason to not ban something.

    Against more offensive teams Mega Gengar can be a downright pain with its more offensive sets usually consisting of Destiny Bond/Shadow Ball/Focus Blast/Sludge Bomb or Sludge Wave. The coverage isn't great in the sense that it hits a lot super effectively, rather it is good in the sense that it hits almost everything for neutral damage with a 170 Special Attack stat fueling its onslaught. Immunity to Mach Punch and Extreme Speed, being only weak to Sucker Punch and the less common Shadow Sneak, and having slightly buffed defense stats make it difficult to revenge as well. These collective qualities make Mega Gengar an amazing stall breaker and revenger that can trap and remove its team's counters and checks. Not losing two or more Pokemon to it is nigh impossible if the other player knows what they're doing.
     
  6. [OG] Swanna Lady

    [OG] Swanna Lady Y.......Yo......You.....YOU'RE FAT!

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    I can safely say that MegaGar shouldn't be banned in Monotype. I have a MonoPoison with MegaGar on it and it doesn't really do much for me. The only thing it can really destroy are steel mono teams because ghost type moves do neutral damage to steel types in gen 6. That really is needed though as anything not called a MonoFire team can barely touch steel monos. Even with the buff against steel monos Mega Mawile is common on them and sucker punch is essential on any Mawile. Sure, sludge bomb can do a lot to fairy mono teams but once again, Mega Mawile. It can be an excellent stall breaker but if the opponent is running a special wall, it can't do sh**.

    In conclusion, Mega Mawile is so common on teams that it's a danger for MegaGar to even be used in mono. I think Mega Gengar should NOT be banned in Monotype.
     
  7. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    That just sounds like broken checking broken to me when it's the only one of a few things that checks Steel teams as you make it sound. Mega Gengar, as Xdevo pointed out, is dangerous in its ability to dismantle stall and get rid of a few key checks to its team. Mega Gengar itself does not sweep or try to take on Mega Mawile ever and Mawile would never switch into pre-Mega Gengar. Special walls are also crippled by a quick Taunt, making them not a sure fire answer, not to mention you cannot switch them in.

    Checks are very weak supplements to ones argument, especially if they cannot switch into a set's main STAB move.
     
  8. [OG] Swanna Lady

    [OG] Swanna Lady Y.......Yo......You.....YOU'RE FAT!

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    Paralyzing is another way to easily kill MegaGar and tbh anything with prankster (aka thundurus, klefki, sableye and anything with trace) can paralyze it without having to worry about taunt. When MegaGar is paralyzed it really can't do anything. Also, I forgot to mention priority moves, which tend to be theme here in PO. Bullet Punch is by far the most common in Mono and considering the fact that steel monos are so common it's not hard to see why. Scizor is the master of priority because of technician.
     
  9. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Again, you cannot switch any of these Pokemon in and Scizor does not OHKO. Trace users will not affect Mega Gengar as Shadow Tag traps all Pokemon except those with Shed Shell (which is basically a waste of an item) or those who are Ghost type; most Trace users are also Psychic type which is a problem. Thunder Wave is inflicted by Prankster users, and then they get OHKO'd/almost completely destroyed by Shadow Ball. Sableye also doesn't get Thunder Wave. Any other Prankster users you didn't list usually are very niche or completely unviable.
     
  10. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    My problem is that the answers that are given for Mega Gengar are extremely narrow options that aren't carried on the large majority of teams. It'd be a little different if the answers given were solid, but on top of being extremely narrow they are soft, at best, answers to Mega Gengar.

    I find Mega Gar to be one of the most effective Pokemon in the metagame to use. It has the pleasure of trapping opposing mons, having a fantastic Speed/Sp.A stat, and having the end all be all move in Destiny Bond that insures that the opponent doesn't win the trade off. There are tons of situations in which Gar just beats things and in order to beat it Scarf'ed users have to come into play. Gar doesn't have many disadvantageous matchups agains mon or Type themselves. 130 is a pretty blistering speed that 15 non-scarfed mons in the game can outspeed (through strict outspeeding or winning a tie). This in a sense forces revenging or taking hits to be able to beat it out. The buffed defensive stats are huge when it comes to taking hits as Gar is not so much of a glass cannon anymore.

    Carl MurrayXdevo hit the points right on the head. If there is much else to say it'll be in response to arguments. Mega Gar is definitely bad for the Monotype metagame and needs to be banned.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2014
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  11. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    Something I think might need a bit of clarification: When I said MegaGengar dismantles defensive Pokemon, I wasn't just talking about stall. MegaGar essentially dismantles anything short of Bulky Offensive teams, since Balance and Semi-Stall teams rely on at least one defensive Pokemon or a core of defensive Pokemon that Gengar makes obsolete. MegaGar doesn't just destroy one style, it's made an entire end of the spectrum take a massive hit.
     
  12. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    Mega Gengar definitely needs to go. What pretty much all of the anti-ban arguments seem not to notice is exactly what happens with Shadow Tag. It literally has zero counters after it megas, due to the fact that literally no pokemon can switch in unless the trapped pokemon has shed shell, switch/turn, or is a Ghost. This means that the correct way to use it is to switch in to something it can take out, and then after killing it, get out to something else. Even if you can't/don't get Gar to safety, you're still virtually guaranteed at least a 1 for 1. Key word here: guaranteed.
     
  13. gengar17

    gengar17 someone turn this nothing into gengar

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    as a guy who used mega gar a lot in both xy ubers and mono, i can safely say that even though on paper it looks like a pretty powerful pokemon, which it is, it is very overrated in monotype.
    I dont think people here are taking into consideration what monotypes are all about and are focusing on its role as a pokemon that just traps and kills.
    in monotypes, there are no defensive cores similar to regular tiers, where a couple of walls can cover each other's weaknesses. all pokes are sharing 1 type. even though mega gar has great stats, it just cant ohko most pokes used in several monos, due to most of those pokes not being weak to it, u really have to be a psychic or fairy or grass mono only to worry about being trapped. people cant afford to stall in monotype, in most matchups, mega gar will almost never ohko a pokemon neutrally affected by geng's moves, and most pokes will hit back, and hard. (think of ground, fire, water (azu hurting it a lot with aqua jet), fighting (knock off), steel (heck, even skarmory will do damage to it with sturdy + bb or whirl if u need skarm), electric,flying, etc etc) all these monos are popular, very offensive, and many of their pokes would take a big chunk off of gengar.
    going back to trapping psychic, grass, and fairies: most of the time, trapping doesnt even matter there, if your gengar-weak team is facing a mega gengar, ur gonna be sacking something anyway.
    poison and ghost monotypes are already under used because of the very limited options, and mega venu is a more popular mega than geng in poison monos, so a ban will only achieve the death of ghost mono, or maybe just limit it to trick room teams only.
     
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  14. [OG] Swanna Lady

    [OG] Swanna Lady Y.......Yo......You.....YOU'RE FAT!

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    I could not agree more. I actually have a poison mono without venu on at all and so far it's been very useful. I keep trying to say that but people don't listen. Most people are like "EARHGH! IT CAN DEMOLISH STALL! BAN IT!" But the thing is this, stall isn't a thing in monotype. People are arguing that you can't switch out pokemon when mega gar is in play but in monotype, switching isn't really used as every pokemon shares the same type. Actually, I doubt a lot of these people posting on this thread have ever played monotype.
     
  15. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Tournament Host Forum Moderator Tournament Host

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    @gengar17 , I think you didn't understand some things about Mega Gar. It can revenge kill any choice mon locked into the wrong move/ any mon not very offensive/ very weak specialy defensive mon. And you're talking about some mon that can take a hit, but in first place they need to be there and not another member trapped.
    The only type that can't be trapped is ghost, which is obv completely demolished by shadow ball. Also, with Destiny bond, it has the guarentee to have at least 1 kill. At least a kill per match is the definition of having no counters with Shadow Tag!
    As for Monotype having no defensive core, have you ever built a team with pokémon that cover others weaknesses? Like a Skarm/Aegi/Heatran core? Even poison can deal with their weaknesses with mons like Drapion/Mega Venu.
    Anyway, most of the time I faced a M.Gengar, I've lost 2 guys, one for the trap and the other with Destiny Bond usually.

    @[OG] Swanna Lady : Stall exists in Monotype, I've recently build a stally Monowater team that had kinda great results, so never say again "stall isn't a thing in monotype". Also "People are arguing that you can't switch out pokemon when mega gar is in play but in monotype, switching isn't really used as every pokemon shares the same type." . I laughed so hard when reading this. It's like building a Monoground without Gastrodon, and you can be sure you're 6-0ed by surf.
    And finaly you can leave your doubts for yourself, people like Sul or me reached #1 a tons of times, we played a lot the tier, and we know what we're talking about.

    Mega Gengar is an uncompetitive Pokémon, it is too powerfull for any metagame ( Ubers included). Ban
     
  16. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    Hi, if you actually read my latest post, I literally said it's not just stall. Any form of defensive core is dismantled, not just stall. Balanced, Semi-Stall, and even Bulky Offensive teams suffer from this trapping. If you aren't going to bother with reading post, and are just going to put words in other people's mouths, you should stop posting here.


    You're talking to; A past Monotype leader, Two current monotype leaders, the (at the time of this post) #2 of the monotype ladder, and then people idk.

    You have no right to even imply that we've not played even played monotype. Do so again and I will infract you.
     
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  17. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    @[OG] Swanna Lady @gengar17
    My credentials as a monotype player go into winning the Monotype subforum tour. User @Carlmurray was also in the finals. Other users have also given reasons for why they can speak on this topic, but this is just to get the idea out of the way that we "don't play Monotype".

    The first paragraph is in response to gengar. The 2nd is to Swanna Lady.

    I would like to mention that defensive cores do exist in Monotype. Think about Steel's Aegi/Ferro/Tran. Ground has Hippo/Gastro. Water can use Rotom-W/Empoleon/Tenta. Poison can do work with Mvenu/literally anything. Normal has P2 and Chansey/Blissey. I could list cores for every type in the game if you'd really like, but I hope you get the point with just those. I don't think being able to 0hko mons is significant when you have the bulk to live hits, the power to 2hko, and the ability to trap almost any mon in the tier. The thing about Gar is that it has the ability to beat one mon, and later Destiny Bond a revenge killer taking out two mons. This is an incredibly effective strategy and is incredible for the Mega Gar user. Generally speaking, Gar is going to be in on something threatening to the rest of the team and is almost guaranteed taking out one of the opposing mons. Poison and Ghost are both solid types that are underused for reasons other than the options they have. Leaving a broken mon in a tier to "prevent the death of a type" (while this statement is utterly ridiculous I'm still going to use it to make my point) is not how suspects should be handled. Ghost is a fantastic type and the recent Steel nerf makes it that much better. T Poison is one of the types that takes more dedication than most to do well. Without Mega Gengar Poison still doesn't suffer that much. Either way, leaving a broken mon in the tier is unacceptable as it doesn't solve any problems.

    The biggest argument about Mega Gar is not "EARHGH! IT CAN DEMOLISH STALL! BAN IT!". Stall as a team archetype is seen once in a blue moon, but Monotype does have a fair share of stall when it comes to cores. A big portion of Monotype is team symmetry. Despite sharing the same type, many mons on a team function well together and cover each others weaknesses. For instance, Aegi/Tran/Ferro, one of the most popular stallish cores in Monotype has incredible type symmetry. The same can be said with P2 and Chansey/Bliss in terms of physical/special defensiveness. Azu/Togekiss/Whimsicott also have good typing symmetry. The point I'm trying to get at is while Stall teams are not incredibly popular, these cores are seen frequently and Mega Gengar dismantles every single one of them WITH the added ability of being able to take on a plethora of offensive mons. Switching is one of the most important aspects of Monotype. Even though every mon shares the same type, weaknesses are not necessarily carried across all 6 members of the party. Think Landorus/Gastrodon/Nidoking for example. Nidoking takes Grass and Ice moves for neutral damage, while Gastrodon takes any Water move, as well as Ice neutrally. Landorus takes any Ground moves aimed at Nidoking. The assumption that switching isn't important is seemingly based on a fallacy that the move of choice will be super effective against all members of the opposing party.
     
  18. gengar17

    gengar17 someone turn this nothing into gengar

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    yes, i get that there are defensive cores in mono teams, i just meant that since they share the same type they usually have a common weakness, except the immunities from abilities, but those defensive cores can usually 1v1 gengar and win, unless they get destiny bonded, taking for example the defensive cores u mentionned, most of these pokes in those cores, bar chansey/bliss, can succesfully 1v1 mega geng and only lose by destiny bond, which is , since mega gar is apparently broken, a good trade off. I want to make something clear that i think i failed to make clear in my previous post, i wasnt talking about monos not having defensive cores, but more like defensive cores that are especially weak to gengar (again, bar the type advantage monos)
    and carl, since this is a mono, why would someone lock themselves in a move that is bad against gengar but good vs other pokes of the same type? can u maybe give an example so i wouldnt be missing something here?
     
  19. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    After review with the current side metagames leaders, we have decided to ban Gengarite (effectively banning Mega Gengar).

    Mega Gengar is not broken due to its ability to sweep entire teams. The ability to pick apart specific checks and counters to its team with Shadow Tag makes it an extremely potent force. Destiny Bond guarantees Gengar at least one kill in a worst case scenario with its blistering 130 speed. This applies to both Stall, Balance, and Bulky Offense, which forces the metagame to warp itself around hyper offensive play styles. Unlike other Shadow Tag users, Mega Gengar cripples multiple styles of teams and makes Monotype a one-dimensional form of strategy.

    Most anti-ban arguments were relatively devoid of solid arguments and listed highly questionable and situational checks such as Focus Sash and other Pokemon who could not switch in the turn Gengar Mega Evolves.

    The ban will be effective within 24 hours.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2014
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