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Suspect Discussion: Medichamite (Revisited)

Discussion in 'Gen 6 UU' started by Insane Soul, Aug 31, 2014.

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  1. Insane Soul

    Insane Soul Griffith did nothing wrong.

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    Insane Soul
    [​IMG]
    Credit to Gigabyte (somerandomguy) for the cool picture

    After popular demand and an untimely vote for Medichamite, which was put in the beginning of March and immediately after the rise of Sylveon and Latias, among other pokemon, which caused some significant changes in the metagame in which the discussion took place, it has been decided that Medichamite will be suspected again. As such, discuss the possibility of banning Medichamite from the XY UU Tier.

    Use this thread to discuss MegaCham's effect in the metagame. Talk about the different sets it can use, its best partners/team support and potential checks & counters. State your opinion on whether you think Medichamite (MegaCham) should be banned or if it should stay in the XY UU tier.

    All opinions are welcome to be presented, and arguments may be shared between players, as long as you back it up with knowledge and experience and refrain from making your entire points based on responses to others. Theorymonning is not a valid argument and anyone who bases their opinion in it risks being infracted. If you are relatively new to this kind of environment, i suggest you read these guidelines.

    Do not forget that, if a consensus can't be found after this discussions reaches its end, a vote will be held.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2014
    Virizion, somerandomguy and Daybreak like this.
  2. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    It is an offensive monster and hits so hard you could probably feel it through your computer/android screen. Fake Out essentially ensures a Mega Evolution and from there it can spam its choice of STAB moves. If you don't have a Ghost it literally spams HJK with almost no drawbacks. Beating Mega Cham generally means revenge killing it or having a mon take a hit and fire back with a WoW/Twave/Strong attack. Even with its painfully bad bulk, Mega Cham can still take its fair share of hits (Specs Keldeo's Scald has a 12.5% chance to 0hko.Scarf Hydreigon's Draco has a 43.8% chance to 0hko).

    Cham really only needs one set to put in work in the UU tier:
    Medicham (M) @ Medichamite
    Trait: Pure Power
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SAtk) <--------------- Adamant is more fun IMO. Jolly does just fine.
    - Fake Out
    - High Jump Kick
    - Bullet Punch / Fire Punch / Thunderpunch / Ice Punch
    - Zen Headbutt

    Psycho Cut and Drain Punch are generally seen as lesser alternatives to Zen Headbutt and HJK respectively. Baton Pass is a neat option in the 3rd slot, but is incredibly situational and is almost 100% useless if the opponent doesn't carry one of a handful of mons (listed below). Bullet Punch helps Cham vs more offensively oriented teams while the remaining 3 coverage moves handle the few mons that defensively give Cham trouble. It doesn't find itself in battle very easily, but when it does, mons just drop. Your choice of defensive answers is pretty limited as, off the top of my head, Slowbro, Defensive Mew, Sableye, Doublade, and Cofagrigus are really the only things that can switch into it defensively and threaten it out in some way. Otherwise something is going to be KO'd unless prediction is perfect (even then Mons just take LOADS of damage from any of Cham's STAB's). Protect also kind of works at whittling Cham's health, but the only purpose that serves is putting it into range for a Scarfed/Priority mon to get the KO.

    It does have it issues getting into battle, and a good portion of the offensive mons of the tier can threaten it out effectively, Cham still puts an immense amount of pressure on teams and teambuilding to a point where you basically lose a mon every time it comes in. Fake Out and BP hit surprisingly hard on neutral targets and can often take often take mons out while they sit ~50% HP. Staraptor loses at 62%, Salamence loses at 52%. Victini loses at 32%. Hydreigon at 50%. Shaymin at 42% There are all minimum numbers.

    Overall I think Mega Medicham is too powerful for the UU tier and Medichamite should be banned. The combination of its fantastic attack stat thanks to Pure Power, a great speed tier, reasonable bulk, and the lack of reliable switch ins is just too much.
     
  3. Beastly

    Beastly Active Member

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    Mega Medicham is a massive threat dont get me wrong and with the rise of latias its power greatens.
    Medicham (M) @ Medichamite
    Trait: Pure Power
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SAtk)
    - Fake Out
    - High Jump Kick
    - Bullet Punch / Fire Punch / Thunderpunch / Ice Punch/ Rock Slide/ Subsitute [thats alot of options]
    - Zen Headbutt
    This is the main medicham set you will be setting and it hurts, a lot. Let me show you some calcs

    252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 231-273 (57.1 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Blastoise: 225-265 (62.1 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 199-235 (55.2 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Those are some of the best defensive walls in the tier. None of them are counters
    For the counter side the calcs arent working for me right now I'll edit defensive calcs later but

    Mew 252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 180 Def Mew: 148-175 (36.6 - 43.3%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Slowbro
    252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 119-141 (30.2 - 35.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Sabelye [ What calc its not effective by zen or hjk only by bullet]

    Cresselia 252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 152+ Def Cresselia: 121-143 (27.2 - 32.2%) -- 56.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Defensive Mence [If not Ice Punch] -1 252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 121-144 (30.7 - 36.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Doublade 252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Fire Punch vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 128-152 (41 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO [Prob not even fire punch]

    And thats it That is a pretty short list for common stuff in uu that counters. Sure theres like granbull in nu but really thats not going to be used too much. Medicham is a problem. A BIG PROBLEM. People think victini is best psychic type in tier should think twice this is a monster. Medicham is a massive threat to this tier but I will wait to give desicion just yet but of right now. Ban
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2014
  4. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Time to prove Mega Medi isn't broken again.

    The set which is most common is:

    Medicham @ Medichamite
    Trait: Pure Power
    Jolly Nature (+Spd -SAtk)
    EV: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Fake Out
    High Jump Kick
    Zen Heabutt / Psycho Cut
    Ice Punch / Bullet Punch

    Defensive Mew - switches in on anything it does, cripples with Will-O-Wisp
    Sableye - immune to both STABs, cripples with Will-O-Wisp
    Doublade - immune to High Jump Kick, resists Zen Headbutt and Ice Punch, 2HKOs with Gyro Ball + Shadow Sneak
    Slowbro - is at best 4HKOed, while it can fish for a burn with Scald and heal off any damage with Slack Off. Thunder Punch can 2HKO though, although I don't think I've ever seen one running Thunder Punch.
    Defensive Granbull (LU by usage but still viable) - isn't 2HKOed by anything, forces Medicham out or OHKOs damn near every time with Play Rough
    Wobbuffet (NU by usage but still viable) - isn't 2HKOed by anything, traps and kills Medicham with Counter
    Cofagrigus (LU by usage but still viable) - immune to High Jump Kick, Zen Headbutt removes Pure Power thanks to Mummy while Cofagrigus can cripple with Will-O-Wisp

    Those are just the counters that spring to mind immediately. Doubtless I'm sure other people will find more, as well as good checks. Mega Medicham is not broken - it is purely a strong wallbreaker. Terrible 4MSS and poor bulk means it can never hit everything it wants to and can't switch in on much either. And don't give me the "it doesn't have to switch in" excuse. You can't always use slow Volt Switch/U-turn. It's a great wallbreaker, but that's all it is.

    Relevant Calcs
    Mew
    252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Mew: 129-152 (31.9 - 37.6%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    Then Mew burns it, and threat eliminated
    252 Atk Pure Power burned Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Mew: 64-76 (15.8 - 18.8%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Doublade
    252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Doublade: 64-76 (19.8 - 23.6%) -- possible 5HKO
    252+ Atk Doublade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Medicham: 146-174 (55.9 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    Even if Medicham's running Fire Punch, it still can't 2HKO
    252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Doublade: 128-152 (39.7 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    Slobro
    252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 119-141 (30.2 - 35.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
    0 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Medicham: 99-117 (37.9 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    So Slowbro KOs first, and can just Recover off any damage. It only fears the rare Thunder Punch
    252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 184-218 (46.7 - 55.3%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Granbull
    -1 252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 126-148 (32.8 - 38.5%) -- 4.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    0 Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Medicham: 258-306 (98.8 - 117.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
    And even if you prefer a more offensive build, Granbull can still avoid a 2HKO most of the time if no hazards are down
    -1 252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Granbull: 184-217 (47.9 - 56.5%) -- 31.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Wobbuffet
    252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 28 HP / 232+ Def Wobbuffet: 180-213 (34 - 40.3%) -- 40.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    Wobbuffet used Counter! Medicham fainted.

    Sableye
    252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 172-203 (56.5 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    Priority Will-O-Wisp, now he's useless
    252 Atk Pure Power burned Mega Medicham Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 86-101 (28.2 - 33.2%) -- 92.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
    And that's running a specially defensive build. Physically defensive IMO is much better.

    Cofagrigus
    252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 121-144 (37.8 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    Medicham's ability became Mummy! It's now useless.
     
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  5. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    Ok so @Dr. Doom
    7 mons that can "counter" Mega Medicham is enough to say it isn't broken? Cofagrigus, Doublade, and Granbull have no reliable recovery meaning they get worn down incredibly easy. Thunderpunch and Fire Punch make Slowbro and Doublade almost irrelevant. I don't know how I feel about using Wobb as an argument against something's brokenness.... it just doesn't feel right. Wobb does what it does to Cham to every Pokemon in the game. Mew's top set became so popular because it was such a great answer to Cham. Sableye is the only other reliable answer I'd say. It has 2 reliable counters in Mew and Sableye, Granbull and Cofagrigus are solid checks, and Doublade and Slowbro can be anywhere on that list depending on the set.

    I have seen Thunderpunch, Fire Punch, Ice Punch and Shadow Ball used on Cham as coverage options. They are in no way bad and help alleviate some pressure it gets from these defensive mons. The 4mss it has is never a big deal when it just drops 95% of the tier with a single STAB move. Offensive teams have an even worse time as Medicham will take HUGE chunks, if no just straight 0hko'ing, every mon that thinks about switching in.
     
  6. Accelgor

    Accelgor Active Member

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    @Dr. Doom


    So far you've listed pokemon like Granbull, Cofagrigus, and Sableye as
    surefire counters to Mega Medicham (let's refer to it as MM). The truth is that these 3 options all hold very precise niches in the current UU metagame, and that is to counter MM. Granbull has no reliable recovery and is worn very easily due to this. Other counters/checks such as Mew and Suicune outclass Granbull by far since they can serve a variety of other purposes while Granbull has very limited viable options.

    Cofagrigus does not have access to a reliable form of recovery as well (Pain Split is generally unreliable since it can be easily predicted and heavily depends on the opponent's health, which is hardly a safe option). Additionally, due to the presence of powerful Ghost/Dark type pokemon such as Hydreigon as well as the immense popularity of Knock Off, Cofagrigus will most probably have a hard time succeeding to fulfill its purpose.

    As for Sableye, its bulk is really deceptive as strong physical hits and many special moves can either heavily dent or even eliminate it. Spiritomb, which you forgot to mention, is a much more viable option as it can threaten MM, pokemon under subs, a host of physically oriented pokemon, etc.

    To put it simply, MM is extremely overcentralized in UU as of right now and the great majority of its checks and counters serve fairly uniform niches and purposes. Moreover, many of these pokemon limit teambuilding as each team is forced to carry at least 1 check or counter to MM. In most cases, one has to run a decent check or counter to MM otherwise they risk getting demolished by it.

    BAN Mega Medi plz
     
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  7. meeps

    meeps Well-Known Member

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    hi

    ok looking at dr. doom's post first

    mew are virtually forced to run physically defense sets for the sake of countering medicham, when it can run specially defense set for the sake of checking nidoqueen and nidoking more effectively and some other special attackers, like roserade and electric type like thundy-t too, while still being alright vs some other physical attackers

    granbull needs a lot of support to work well, it checks/counters like 8 pokemon in the entire tier, other offensive threats give it major problems, and as it's already been mentioned, it lacks reliable recovery

    doublade isnt that great honestly, medicham is def elevating its usage, a lot of special attackers and common fire-types and dark-types give it problems

    pure ghost is a really bad typing in the tier because of strong dark-types and ghost-types give it problems, also lack of solid resistances allows other offensive pokemon to do a lot of damage as well (referring to cofagrigus)

    medicham doesnt have 4mss lol, the fact it doesnt have pure checks but rather some pure counters so medicham honestly doesnt have anything to run other than fake out bullet punch hjk and psychic stab. if anything, ice punch should be the only other coverage option which can easily be ran over bullet punch

    accelgor i dont see how sableye is a niche option yet spritomb isnt give spiritomb is primarily used for countering medicham. it's alright doing solid damage to psychic and ghost types and really frail pokemon, and burning subcoil zygardes as well. sableye however is capable of countering medicham, making it really tough for the opponent to remove hazards, even giving blastoise problems (a spinner and defogger leaving helps sableye even more this cycle). it can also check numerous other fighting-types more effectively than spiritomb, preventing the opponent from setting up hazards, and it's a solid stallbreaker as well, so i would consider it more viable than spiritomb

    also when teambuilding literally every common pokemon needs to be be taken into account and have a check/counter (like example if i dont run a check/counter to houndoom i will be destroyed by it as well). but it is correct a lot of pokemon used to counter medicham struggle a lot outside of checking it and some other pokemon.
     
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  8. Virizion

    Virizion ~ Taste the Rainbow ~

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    I got ThatMushroom's opinions on Mega Medicham right here:
    ThatMushroom: medi isnt broken
    ThatMushroom: it's whatever, only thing that bugs me is that aids weav+medi core

    Anyways, time for my opinion on the Fighting/Psychic type Pokémon, Mega Medicham.

    Mega Medicham is an offensive threat to the metagame. While being suspected before, this time around with the changes completely changes my opinions of it. Fighting and Psychic is a great offensive typing and with 656 attack at max, MMedi hits like a truck, allowing it to have very few safe switch-ins. It's not even slow, as well. Base 100 Speed allows MMedi to outspeed non-scarf Hydreigon, Lucario, etc., and OHKO them with the respective move.

    Checks:
    Because of items great offensive presence, and due to most of it's worries now in OU, Mega Medicham has few possible checks. Psychic types and bulky Ghost Pokémon are probably the best checks to MMedi, namely Victini, Reuniclus, and Cofagrigus, being able to take advantage of speed control and lure it into their favour. Trevenant and Gourgeist are options, however are significantly weaker if Mega Medicham wishes to carry Ice Punch. Another somewhat check would be physically defensive Florges, but it still wouldn't enjoy a Zen Headbutt. Even then though, most of Mega Medicham's queries are now gone, and with Latias back to OU again, MMedi has hope to shine for another day.

    Counters:
    Again, Psychic and Ghost-types are really threatening to Mega Medicham, being able to take advantage of the situation. Mew is a great counter, being able to render MMedi useless with Will-O-Wisp and recover back with either Softboiled or Roost. For this reason also, Slowbro is a solid counter, thanks to it's somewhat unique defensive typing and also potentially burning with Scald and recovering with either Slack Off or Regenerator. Doublade is also a good mention, being able to snag an SD on a switch and turn the situation around completely. Sableye could also be considered, thanks to being immune to both of it's STAB and taking pitful damage from both Bullet Punch and Ice Punch, and can Recover right in it's face. Cresselia can be considered also thanks to fantastic base stats an access to Calm Mind and Moonlight, being able to safely set-up without worrying about any attack at all from it.

    Team Support and Synergy:
    Mega Medicham can be ran with a very powerful Special Attacker to clean up the dirty work. Hydreigon is an excellent choice being able to take down those Psychic and Ghost types with little to no worries, and can even run U-Turn on a Scarf Set (even though Specs is a fantastic option, Life Orb as well can be considered) to escape from Fairies, particularly Florges. Nidoking is also a good choice for coverage options, and being able to run Ice Beam for Gligar and defensive Salamence can be useful if MMedi wants to run Fake Out to gain that extra speed. It also serves decently against Florges if it wishes too. Knock Off users such as Mega Absol, Crawdaunt, and Weavile also help MMedi to ruin the opponents team thanks to their wallbreaking power also. As for support options, what Mega Medicham also really appreciates is hazards, especially Stealth Rock - this allows MMedi to deal huge amounts of damage to Pokémon such as Forretress or Focus Sash Pokémon such as Crawdaunt (?) and the like. Spikes and Toxic Spikes are also useful to whittle down the opponents Pokémon a little bit, as well as paralysis or even phasing support from Mega Aggron.

    All in then, Mega Medicham is more threatening than ever and deserves to be banned from the XY UU Tier.
     
  9. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    So I'll start off with checks and counters to Mega Medi. Concerning checks, there really aren't that many. Victini is probably the main check that comes to mind but it's taking more than half from Jolly HJK meaning it can only come in vs Medi once. There are a few other checks but they all require a correct 50/50 guess on your part. Ones I'm thinking of are Chandy (on the HJK), Crobat (on the HJK), and a few others, but these are not reliable answers to Medi in the slightest.

    Most people opt for counters to MegaCham because of how unreliable its "checks" are. The list gets more expansive here. Mew, Slowbro, Sableye, Spiritomb, fat Mence (cant take Ice Punches), Doublade (no one runs Fire Punch lol), Cofag, Cress, and from here on the list starts wavering into less viable mons like Granbull or Uxie.
    There's a reason why some of these mons are so common, Mega Medi is so insanely threatening that you are somewhat forced to run a counter to it on your team. It's easily the most centralizing mon in the meta atm. As meeps mentioned all these mons are also forced to run physdef spreads, and I agree that Mew for example is much better spdef or mixed. I also find that it's pretty easy to support Mega Medi.
    I know I've talked about this before but I think pairing Medi with Weavile (which is one of the, if not the most common offensive core right now) or another really powerful Pursuit user turns Medi into an even more serious problem. Weavile has a pretty good matchup vs the most common Medi counters which include Mew, Slowbro, Mence, and Doublade, and forces them to either switch out and get Pursuited or take a Knock Off. It is a 50/50, but either way the counter is going to be left at enough health for Medi to KO it the next time it comes in. With your only counter out of the way, Medi is getting a kill every time it comes in.
    With its excellent dual priority which does great vs offense, solid speed stat, the fact that it forces you to run physdef Ghosts or Psychics, and the fact that those only counters can be easily weakened or removed for Medi to rip through teams, I see it as pretty unhealthy for the meta. So I'll say ban.

    EDIT: Viriz stop hoarding my quotes, that's chools job.
     
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  10. Rage.

    Rage. [Hero] and [LGI]

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    I see MegaCham as a broken force in XY UU because the HJK spam is just so overwhelming, yes it does have checks which are solid and good in the metagame, but they are just quite few and HJK or Zenbutt kills almost every offensive mon by a single hit, while its bulk isn't much, but however enough to take most hits once and retaliate with a damn strong hit. Dual priority is very good against offensive teams aswell. defensive ones are prepared for it easily, but offense is affected a lot, even though many teams run mew for medicham. i think the main problem about mmcham is the way of forcing most teams to run this one of 4 counter to it, while nuking everything else with 130 BP stab @ 656 Atk and giving faster mons not directly an easy time. i vote ban.
     
  11. dayum son

    dayum son New Member

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    Aside from a small handful of very niche pokemon (Sableye, Granbull) all of Cham's (few) counters are weak to Dark, thus Pursuit. Combined with Cham's utterly unreasonable offensive prowess, I think Mega Medicham is unhealthy for the tier, as it puts an insurmountable strain on defensive teams. And while it's not hard to revenge kill, against offensive teams it's still often making anything under 100 base speed a liability.

    Also please no one bring up "it's hard to switch in." I'm not even talking a slow volt-turn, double switches are not hard to do lol
     
  12. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt. Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Ah yes the usual argument that comes up with a powerful fighting type in any tier: "You can pursuit its checks so its broken". Because a pokemon requiring support that's neither common nor otherwise effective (lol if you think a pursuit will take out slowbro) totally makes it broken.

    Medicham has lost 3 checks since the beginning of UU in Zapdos, Latias and Sylveon. Still present in the tier are pokemon that can check MegaCham and benefit most playstyles in the tier like Mew, Slowbro, Florges, Cofagrigus, Sableye, Doublade, Xatu, Starmie, Alomomola, Celebi, Hippowdon, Tangrowth, Cresselia, Slowking, Uxie, etc - most of whom are checks, some of whom are counters, some of whom are shaky at worst if MegaCham runs a move like Ice Punch or Fire Punch that outright gimp its own set to be less effective in order to deal with like 2 pokemon total in the tier (it absolutely requires Fake Out and Bullet Punch to be as effective as it can be in UU). MegaCham got better but almost all teams find it easy to pack pokemon -that they would have had in their team anyway- that prevent it from being overwhelming. MegaCham still requires solid prediction to be played well. MegaCham should not be banned.
     
  13. dayum son

    dayum son New Member

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    ^HJK, Cham's most spammable move, 2HKOs all of Alomomola, Hippo, Tangrowth, Florges (even 252/252+ which is a bad spread), and Starmie (ditto, it's faster but can't OHKO.) Ice Punch is on like every third Cham set so Celebi is not a good answer either (Bullet Punch is awful idk what you're talking about, Sub and damn even Baton Pass for delayed switch are better than Bullet Punch, not to mention Ice/Fire/Thunder Punch which allow it to get around some of its counters, and for a dedicated wallbreaker yeah that's not a bad idea.)

    Xatu, Uxie and Cofag are utter garbage, there's not point in bringing them up. Slowking is also irrelevant considering Slowbro's phys. bulk is more useful in the current meta (Slowking needs a ton of phys. def investment to survive 2x HJK anyway, and that defeats the purpose of using it over Slowbro in the first place.)

    Mew, Doublade, Cresselia, Slowbro, and Sableye are absolutely solid answers, but really the only ones there I would seriously consider appreciably useful outside of handling Medicham is Mew and Slowbro.

    And fucking lol @ Pursuit not being common or effective... Weavile on its own is one of the best offensive mons in the tier, and if that doesn't tickle your fancy there's also Honchkrow and Krookodile. Pursuit, LO Scolipede, who cares, fact is that Medicham's good counters are exclusively bulky Psychics and then one or two ghosts, which is really exploitable and you can very easily make a core of Medicham+[good check to Medicham's checks] considering Cham curbstomps almost every single physical wall you can think of.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2014
  14. Baron Corm

    Baron Corm New Member

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    So many fallacies in here that you wouldn't apply to any other pokemon.

    7 counters is a LOT!

    Slowbro, Victini, and Mew are extremely common in UU, and their presence in UU alone means that Medicham is fine. Got a problem? Use one of his direct, perfect, easy to use counters. Slowbro fits on a defensive team, Victini fits on an offensive team, and Mew fits on any. These 3 were all heavily used BEFORE Mega Medicham EXISTED, so it can't be said that MM is centralizing.

    And what do these pokemon have in common - Psychic type. Any Psychic type in the game resists both of his STAB moves, so if you're having problems, you can work around it with good teambuilding even without using one of his direct, perfect, easy to use counters.

    Hi Jump Kick makes you lose 50% HP against a Ghost type or Protect user, so clever play gives you another way to kill him. Personally I feel that Sableye is an amazing pokemon and not "only" a Medicham counter at all. He beats any non-tanky fire type and non-Guts physical attacker in the game, which is saying a lot. A few more exceptions are added to this but give me a break. He can beat Darmanitan, Xatu, or Victini just by predicting Foul Play on the switch instead of Will-o-Wisp. I use a 252 HP/252 Def/4 Spe spread which lets me beat these pokemon - the specially defensive spread is stupid, you just have no chance against special attackers anyway. But I digress.

    Mega Medicham does not centralize the metagame at all and you have plenty of options for defeating him. No you can't beat CM Suicune without running something which can beat him - does that mean CM Suicune "centralizes" the metagame? No, it just means build a good team. If you're going purely offense and don't want to use a pokemon you know can counter a pokemon you have trouble with, then be faster and stronger. He has 100 base speed and can't hold a Scarf. He does carry 1 or 2 *non-STAB* priority moves - but Mega Medicham won't be your only problem if you can't handle that.

    So the last fallacy I would point out is saying that he has all of these coverage moves which can hit many pokemon super effectively. It doesn't matter, he only has 4 moveslots. In addition to that all of the moves have 75 power, and so are very weak neutrally. This is not Genesect who gets Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Flamethrower and can actually make strong neutral hits. This is Thunderpunch, Ice Punch, and Fire Punch. This is like saying that Bronzong is undefeatable because it has both Heat Proof and Levitate. Guess what - figure out which one he's using, and act accordingly.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2014
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  15. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    Um. Counters was in quotes for good reason. If you read my posts, as well as others, you can see why I put them in quotes are they are generally not very reliable. As the poster above you stated, "Mew, Doublade, Cresselia, Slowbro, and Sableye" are most solid answers to MM. Everything else in the tier is getting nuked. I would even consider Doublade and Slowbro checks. Now I will respond to your paragraphs.
    @Baron Corm

    First:
    Slowbro is a check. Not a counter. It loses to Thunderpunch MM. Victini is a revenge killer. Not even a check. It can only switch into Cham ONCE because it gets 2hko'd. MM is the reason Phy Def Mew is standard in UU. It is the most reliable way and non-exploitable way of beating Cham.

    Second:
    Even at the highest level of tournament play players have problems with Cham because it just nukes almost the entire Metagame. You can't really work around Cham with good teambuilding as you generally see better teambuilding as the level of play goes up. Working around Cham consists of making plays and hoping it has the moveset that your team plays best against (i.e. no Ice Punch with Defensive Mence, or no Tpunch with Slowbro The amount of pressure it puts on teams, phys def walls, and players is just absurd.

    Third:
    Zen Headbutt is also going to take a giant chunk out of you if you switch in a non-Sableye/Spiritomb ghost into Cham (non-BP coverage moves take a nice chunk out of both). Prediction goes both ways and predicting HJK is incredibly unreliable as that AND protect, 3hko Cham. They are also prediction based. Beating those other Fire types is also prediction based and again goes both ways. Prediction is not a reliable method of getting rid of a Pokemon.

    Fourth:
    Outside of making Mew's Standard set Phys Def, making Doublade more viable than it would otherwise be, and making people dig up garbage mons that are almost never seen in UU to handle Cham means it definitely doesn't have some sort of centralizing aspect to it.

    Fifth:
    I didn't know base 75 moves coming off of a 598 attack stat ( essentially base 249 which is double that of Genesects offensive stats)
    252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Shuckle: 65-77 (26.6 - 31.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
    252 SpA Genesect Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Shuckle: 45-53 (18.4 - 21.7%) -- possible 5HKO
    +1 252 SpA Genesect Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Shuckle: 67-79 (27.4 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
    It is important to note how Genesect needs the +1 in order to hit as hard as Cham in the neutral game.
    Your Bronzong statement is utterly ridiculous. The fact that it isn't even directly comparable, to the fact that Cham doesn't reveal coverage moves unless it is absolutely necessary. Spamming HJK has basically no drawbacks against the vast majority of teams. When a Ghost is involved, it is all prediction and can go either way, but it is generally better for Cham to spam Psychic STAB. This entire paragraph was honestly just pointless as you didn't make a relevant point with anything you said.

    The argument that I and many others are making is not an argument of how centralizing Cham is. The arguments are based on the fact that you just don't have many options when it comes to dealing with Cham. You either carry one of a handful of mons, or use offensive pressure to your advantage. It is incredibly unhealthy for the metagame to force the usage of said mons as the only reliable way to combat Cham because it basically 2hko's the entire metagame bar a few mons.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2014
  16. Baron Corm

    Baron Corm New Member

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    252 Atk Choice Band Pure Power Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Shuckle: 186-219 (76.2 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Shuckle: 169-199 (69.2 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    His wallbreaking ability by spamming HJK is lessened when he decides to go Mega. Stop using that as an argument. You can also lose to bad prediction switching into the coverage move of a Choice Band Medicham. And it is just as frail as it was before.

    So what changed about this Pokemon to make people suddenly afraid of it - the speed tier and ability to use Fake Out before another move.

    This pokemon does not force certain defensive pokemon to be used any more than it did last gen. The speed tier doesn't matter against defensive teams. What you don't like about it is that you can't make a Hyper Offense team with no resistances and brainlessly plow through your enemy.

    If you ban Mega Medicham to OU, he will lose horribly to stronger defensive pokemon and faster/better offensive pokemon, just like he would last gen. UU is where he belongs.
     
  17. meeps

    meeps Well-Known Member

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    just some stuff really quick

    because a pokemon's checks/counters can be pursuit trapped doesn't necessarily make it broken as the same argument for other strong and fast fighting-type pokemon like terrakion which is really effective if pokemon like mew, doublade, slowbro, etc are taken out.

    knock off > foul play on sableye in most cases js. max spdef sableye is nice for wearing down blastoise as it can take hits and wear it down with wisp and recover, it's also pretty helpful vs some weaker special attackers, defensive pokemon sometimes too, it can handle scarf hydreigon as well. band victini ohko max physdef sableye, idk where you're getting that sableye beats victini, darmanitan does a lot too, physical attackers which are worn down by phys def sableye are also worn down by spdef sableye cuz wisp

    already mentioned medicham doesn't have 4mss lol

    doublade and slowbro are def counters

    band medicham can't switch moves making it extremely easy to check, hence that is why it is not seen. the damage difference really isn't that noticeable considering the pokemon which are generally 2hko'd by band are 2hko'd by mega medicham, pokemon that are generally ohko'd by band are ohko'd by mega medicham.

    a pokemon is banned based on whether it is broken in the tier which it is being discussed in, it's performance in another tier is completely irrelevant (medicham is solid in ou too lol)
     
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  18. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    Just thought I'd quickly mention this, the difference with Mega Medi vs other Fighting types concerning the whole Pursuit thing is that Terrakion for example has counters that aren't Psychic or Ghost types. A pretty big chunk of bulky Waters and Grasses (and defensive mons in general that aren't weak to its dual STAB) handle Terrak and other Fighting types with little trouble. Tangrowth, Chesnaught, Forretress, Alomomola, Amoong, Nidoqueen, Aromatisse, stuff like that are great answers to Terrak and other Fighting types. Mega Medi on the other hand completely decimates every mon on this list and is so insanely powerful that you need counters that resist or are immune to its STABs, for example HJK is doing around 60% to Alo. The only mons (excluding Granbull and the Dark/Ghosts which are used less often) in this category happen to be weak to Dark STAB, but more importantly Pursuit. This is what makes Pursuit+Mega Medi so frustrating to deal with, the only counters it has in the tier are all destroyed by Dark STAB.
     
  19. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    You made that "point" back in the last Medichamite suspect discussion. It didn't apply then, and it doesn't apply now. What's that move defensive Ghost types and defensive Mew use? Oh yeah, Will-O-Wisp. Enjoy the burn Weavile - now you're completely useless. While Doublade and Slowbro don't have Will-O-Wisp, Doublade still OHKOs Weavile with Gyro Ball, and fancy taking your chances on Scald? Hydreigon can beat those Pokémon without too much trouble, but they're hardly going to stay in on it. And the fact that a Pokémon has teammates that can deal with its checks and counters doesn't make it any more broken; that's basic teambuilding 101. That's like saying we should ban Mega Pinsir because Heatran can switch in on anything Skarmory and Talonflame do and OHKO them.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2014
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  20. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    Doom brought up the exact reason why I don't think Weavile/other Pursuit users are Cham's best partner. This isn't about Cham's partners though.

    @Baron Corm
    Band Medi is vastly inferior to Mega Medi. The ability to switch moves and the increase in Speed makes it significantly better than its banded counterpart. As meeps said, their wallbreaking potentials are largely insignificant when Band Cham doesn't score any significant hits Mega doesn't. And stop using what as an argument? The fact that Cham spams HJK in most cases with little to no drawback? The fact that Cham basically 2hko's everything in the tier? Everyone loses to bad prediction. Don't bring it up as an argument for or against a Pokemon. Also, the metagame last gen was not the same as this gen. The differences are significant. You can't compare this gen and last gen like that (Cham is also fucking fantastic in OU but that isn't what this is about either).

    Please do not put words into my mouth either. I hate HO teams to begin with. I very rarely build them in any tier as it doesn't suit my play style (its funny how you say I don't like Cham because I can't brainlessly plow through teams when that is EXACTLY what Cham does). What I don't like about Cham is how you are essentially put into 2 positions:
    1. Run Phys Def Mew/Doublade/Slowbro/Etc. (all of which are extremely similar and exploitable by the same mons)
    2. Don't allow Cham in. If it gets in and you don't have a solid answer something just drops.
    I can't stress how many battles I have seen or played in on the ladder and in tournament play in which Mega Cham just destroys 5 or 6 mons on a team. I feel like allowing Mega Medi to stay leads to an unhealthy metagame. Having wallbreakers is fine. I just think Cham is too much.
     
  21. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    I don't think you know how much an HJK does to a max max Mew. After the second time Medi comes in, Mew is forced to Softboiled if it wants to keep switching into Medi because after a second HJK Mew is going to be around 50% (it needs to recover because once Mew dies Medi gets a kill every time it comes in), HJK is a 4HKO on Mew. This gives Weavile or any Pursuit user the chance to come in. Mew Will-oing expecting the Weavile is really risky because you need to be over half to be able to switch into Medi's HJK and not get 2HKOed. Weavile or other Pursuit users easily take advantage Mews constant need to recover and force it to either stay in and take like 75% from Knock Off or Pursuit on its switch and do around 65. Doublade isn't that good right now, the only reason it rose was purely Mega Medi and it's already back down to 3%. It gets whittled down very easily due to lack of Lefties and recovery in general, but it does stop the Medi+Pursuit core decently. I want to say though that if the opp doubles into Weav on Doub it's pretty much over for that thing and Medi will steamroll you once Doub has been removed. I know doubles and prediction in general is a bad argument but Medi is so insanely powerful and forces so many switches that doubling is highly in favor of the user of Medi. And that Heatran Pinsir comparison is shit lol, does Heatran force Skarm or bird into a 50/50 of stay in and die or switch out and die? The whole point of my argument was Dark types being able to force Medi's only counters to basically guess.

    Anyway, Pursuit+Medi isn't my only reason for wanting to ban it. It essentially forces you to run a physdef Ghost or Psychic type on every team to not sack every time it comes in. Only a handful are really viable, and most teams just opt for Mew or Slowbro. Based on the usage of those two and the recent rise of Doublade (and Spiritomb just hitting 4%) it's obvious how centralizing it is. It performs amazing vs offensive teams because dual priority is really solid vs HO. Base 100 speed is also not bad at all, outspeeds stuff like non Scarf Hydreigon, Chandelure, Nidoking, Magnezone, etc. Just going to c/p my last sentence from a previous post. With its excellent dual priority which does great vs offense, solid speed stat, the fact that it forces you to run physdef Ghosts or Psychics, and the fact that those only counters can be easily weakened or removed for Medi to rip through teams (and Dark spam being extremely common in this tier in general), I see it as pretty unhealthy for the meta.
     
  22. meeps

    meeps Well-Known Member

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    medicham has excellent offensive capabilities with a base 100 attack stat which is boosted even further with huge power. along with this medicham also has access to high jump kick and zen headbutt which are both powerful stab attacks which allows medicham to ohko or 2hko and outspeed almost all of the uu tier as it also has a very good speed tier of 100. it also has access to fake out and bullet punch which are solid priority moves which may allow medicham to do extra damage to make a pokemon easier to ko or take down a weakened, faster foe. medicham doesn't really have 4mss as it can easily succeed with high jump kick, zen headbutt, fake out, and bullet punch

    medicham does has its counters, such as slowbro, mew, sableye, doublade, granbull, cresselia and spiritomb, but a couple of these pokemon struggle in the tier outside of being used to counter medicham, and not running one of these pokemon may allow medicham to rack up damage very easily. a problem with these pokemon is their abilities are also hindered by the many dark-types and ghost-types such as hydreigon, crawdaunt, weavile, chandelure, etc.

    so overall the pressure mega medicham applies in terms of teambuilding and in battle makes it an unhealthy force in the metagame, so it going to be banned in XY UU
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2014
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