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Mawilite Suspect Discussion

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Discussion' started by Sinclair, Sep 1, 2014.

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  1. Sinclair

    Sinclair Call me the Pokemon Demigod

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    Discuss the possibility of Mawilite being banned from the XY OU tier. Use this thread to discuss Mega Mawile's effect on the metagame. Talk about the different sets it can use, good partners and potential checks/counters. State your opinion on whether you think Mawilite should be banned or if it should stay in the XY OU tier but make sure your posts are backed up by experience and knowledge. Anyone who makes post based on theorymon risks being infracted. This thread will be up for a minimum of two weeks.

    Important notes:
    -Stay on topic.
    -Post intelligently.
    -Make meaningful posts. If your post doesn't contain any content, it is prone to being deleted. For example, posts that agree/don't agree with a certain point without any justification or explanation.
     
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  2. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    Hello. I believe that Mawilite is broken in the XY Overused metagame. Mega-Mawile has two main sets: swords dance and substitute+focus punch. Each of these sets have some merits that bring out the brokenness in Mega-Mawile in conjunction with some other noteworthy factors. I will elaborate on that and justify my opinion on the matter in this post.

    In general, Mega Mawile is a monster. With Huge Power and 105 attack, Mawile is the single most hard-hitting pokemon in the metagame after mega-evolving. While hitting hard is indeed beneficial for any offensive pokemon, it's the ability to hit and effect on the metagame that truly matters. Thanks to the Steel+Fairy typing, intimidate in the pre-mega form, and 50/125/95 bulk, Mawile is able to switch in fairly easily and isn't frail in any sense. In addition, Mawile is very hard to check (and impossible to counter) considering it has powerful Play Rough STAB, priority Sucker Punch, and Fire Fang or Focus Punch to hit problematic pokemon like Ferrothorn, Skarmory, etc.

    The SD set generally runs a fair amount of speed (anywhere from enough for Clefable, enough for Skarmory, to Max speed), max attack, and throws the rest into HP. The moves that are staples are SD, Sucker Punch, and Play Rough. The last spot can be Fire Fang, Knock Off, or Iron Head. In regards to counters, there are a couple less to the Fire Fang variant (which is also the most common) than to the others, so I'll base my post generally off of that. Bulky Heatran and Defensive Lando-T are the only solid answer to SD Mega Mawile with Fire Fang. To exemplify the power of Mega Mawile, Skarmory gets OHKOd by +2 non-STAB Fire Fang after rocks, Gliscor's most common defensive spread takes at least 59% from an unboosted Play Rough, and hardly anything can switch in on a Mawile, yet alone withstand any boosted attacks. Overall, SD Mawile is a top sweeper in OU and only has a handful of checks.

    The SubPunch set fulfills a slightly different role, but it's effective and adds to Mawile's brokenness nevertheless. Pokemon like Heatran and even some other steel types (skarm, ferro, etc.) can be lured in by Mawile on occasion and then they won't live to see another day when Focus Punch smacks them. Specifically, this is a lure to Heatran, which is otherwise a solid check to Mawile if it's bulky or has Wisp. In general, sub is a nice utility and with priority, sucker punch, a strong stab, play rough, and focus punch - you have pretty spectacular coverage. I won't elaborate too much since I mainly use SD, but overall the overlap in counters between the two sets is practically nothing and there aren't to many to begin with.

    Furthermore, due to lack of checks/counters, Mawile is broken in xy ou.
     
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  3. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    MegaMawile needs to go. Tho its lack of speed it has got too many advantages which consist in:
    -Massive Atk (basically over 200 base atk that means stronger than mega Mewtwo X wtf)
    -Intimidate + decent Bulkyness -> while it's true that certain mons can deal it several damages, its also true that the majority of ou tier can just 2hko it (or 3hko and over) when it cab always reply with an OHKO or at least a 2HKO (just many hippo and Heatran can survive decently, and this last one got scared by SubPunch)
    -Priority -> SuckerPunch got really few weaknesses and they are all weak to its stabs...
    -Many good coverage moves -> Focus Punch, Fire Fang, Knock Off, Iron Head can kill some of its checks (yeah there aren't counters)
    -Lack of counters - there is not a single safe switch in on this
    I can't stand a thing that can OHKO Garchomp with +2 SuckerPunch unstabbed lol this is too powerful, and not frail enough to be balanced so it is broken and it deserves the ban
     
  4. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    I should clarify that Mega Mawile's Sucker Punch, while not STAB, has similar power to than Silk Scarf Arceus' ExtremeSpeed:

    +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 344-405 (96.3 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
    +2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 339-400 (94.9 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

    And that is Adamant Arceus, which is generally not too common. If you want Arceus' ExtremeSpeed to be stronger than Mawile's Sucker Punch, you need Adamant + Life Orb.

    Mawile's non-STAB Sucker Punch is far from weak.

    I will probably see some really bad arguments like the ones we had with Landorus last generation, so let me answer some of them now:

    1. Mega Mawile isn't unbeatable. It has weaknesses. Keep unbanned please.
    *If it was unbeatable, it wouldn't even be suspected. It would have been quickbanned. Also, Arceus isn't unbeatable. It has weaknesses. Yet, it is banned from OU.
    2. Why can't I just use Heatran / Skarmory to wall Mawile's STABs?
    *Focus Punch is a viable move on Mawile, with or without Substitute. Without a Substitute, you just need a little prediction. Also, just some calcs on Skarmory and Heatran:
    **252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 175-207 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    **252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Focus Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 588-692 (152.7 - 179.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    3. Mawile's low HP stat hampers its bulk
    *That is somewhat true, but Regular Mawile has Intimidate and solid Steel / Fairy typing. Once Mega Evolved, it has 50 / 125 / 95 bulk, which, while lackluster in HP, is still respectable.
    4. I can just burn Mawile with a faster Will-O-Wisp user; Mawile's speed isn't that great.
    *A smart Mawile user usually won't let you burn their Mawile unless it is so weakened that it isn't worth it to keep it around. There is the bulky Mega Charizard Y set, which resists Play Rough + Iron Head + Focus Punch and can respond back with Will-O-Wisp, but you can scout for that before you let Mawile reign terror.

    Again, I feel like these bad arguments are going to come up just like the one we had with Landorus last gen, so I felt I should address some of them now.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2014
  5. Rage.

    Rage. [Hero] and [LGI]

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    I think MMawile fares less easily than it looks. Its speed is somewhat lackluster, which is in my opinion the main problem. Facing any boosting sweeper that you can't outright revenge from 100%, it is quite self-sufficient that you weaken it during the statupping turn. This is literally the same against Dragonite, which also sets up easily, but still it is very manageable. I think the lack of counters makes Mawilite so annoying to everyone, but Landorus-T is quite solid, and Sub Gliscor doesn't even care about being OHKOed. Hippowdon also is a good check to an extent. Revenging is generally a valid option, which is used for any set-up sweeper aswell. Here mons like Keldeo, Lucario, Greninja, Dragonite, Tyranitar, Mega Gyarados, Terrakion etc. are workable. They are indeed not capable of OHKOing (except Keldeo), but as my previous point states, you don't have to OHKO it if you weaken it before. This isn't really hard since offensive teams boast a lot of pressure. The 'free kill' argument is not that much of a deal for offensive teams, since Mawile is not the only situation when HO sacks a mon. I think Mawilite should not be banned.
     
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  6. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 357-420 (85 - 100%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Hippowdon: 394-465 (93.8 - 110.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 228-269 (79.7 - 94%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Nice checks. I will give you the benefit of the doubt on Keldeo / Lucario / Mega Gyara / Terrakion / Tyranitar, as they have no chance to be OHKOd by Swords Dance sets after Stealth Rock, but Hippowdon and Greninja are shaky checks. That calc on Hippowdon is with maximum defense, which is only good on stall. However, all of those offensive checks will lose to SubPunch Mega Mawile, which you must have forgotten / don't know about or didn't mention.
     
  7. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    ok

    While it has very low speed, you still outspeed some walls with proper investment. More importantly though is the absurdly powerful Sucker Punch - being more powerful than Arceus Extremespeed, as noted above, means that you can almost disregard the low speed versus offensive teams. You can switch around Sucker Punches (and take damage from Rocks!), but what does that help you?

    1. With an attack stat of a whooping 678, additional boosting is almost overkill. To put that into perspective, if you were to slap a Choice Band onto any physical attacker, the only Pokémon that would reach the same power level would be Deoxys-A, Kyurem-B, Rampardos, Slaking and Regigigas. You don't need to set up Swords Dance to be threatening with that level of power!
    2. You won't always have the opportunity to weaken Mega Mawile. Disregarding the fact that your entire post is coming from a Hyper Offensive point of view and fail to mention how stall is supposed to deal with Mega Mawile (and no, not every Stall Pokémon can burn or otherwise threaten Mega Mawile, far from it), you're more than likely going to run Choice Band/Scarf on your team. If you're ever locked into the wrong attack, you'll be attacking with a -1 (Intimidate) Pokémon that is also likely using a resisted attack. An example:
    -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 64-76 (23.3 - 27.7%) -- 78.3% chance to 4HKO
    Let's pretend that Talonflame decides to stay in and attack as Mega Mawile sets up a Swords Dance. OK...so you willingly lost one Pokémon simply to weaken the opposing mon in order to be able to revenge kill it reliably. Isn't that how you have to check broken things in Ubers simply because of how absurdly powerful they are? Besides, it's not like Mega Mawile can't come in afterwards!
    Besides Choice locked Pokémon you can still enter on things like [email protected], Breloom once sleep is thrown etc. etc...

    Dragonite has a Stealth Rock weakness whereas Mawile has a Stealth Rock resistance.
    Dragonite has an offensive typing where you can't even use one STAB and the other STAB has one weakness (itself), one resistance and one immunity whereas Mawile has an typing that's at the very least decent offensively (hitting Dark, Fighting and Dragon is superb tbh) and has the option to use it's other STAB (which admittedly is fairly poor).
    Dragonite has a defensive typing leaving it with four weaknesses, one immunity and five resistances. Mawile has a typing that leaves it with two weaknesses, two immunities and nine resistances.
    Dragonite's main attack allows threats (SUCH AS MEGA MAWILE!) to set up for free for one turn, Mega Mawile's main attack allows almost nothing to switch in.
    Dragonite isn't as good as Mega Mawile. Naturally it's easier to manage - it doesn't have essentially base 259 attack!

    Landorus-T can switch in once before succumbing to +1 (SD-Intimidate) assuming the 252/252+ HP/Def spread and doesn't even have a guaranteed OHKO back. Landorus is also one of those mons that are rarely seen at max health because it comes in frequently on various threats to deliver an Intimidate.
    I quoted this an extra time just to try to understand what this means but I failed, so please clarify

    Mega Mawile is faster than Hippowdon and survives an Earthquake. Mawile can even take the opportunity to set up to +4 on Hippowdon if Earthquake comes instead of Whirlwind, and just like Landorus, Hippowdon is a Pokémon that is fairly frequently not at full health.
    +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 357-420 (85 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
    0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 198-234 (72.2 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Everything can be revenged. This is not a valid argument in any suspect thread - "it can be checked by revenge killing" ok so it killed something already, mission accomplished??

    So you bring in some of the most dangerous threats in the metagame and use a super effective attack against a physical power house, and it doesn't OHKO unless you have prior damage - how is this balanced? All of the mons you're mentioning die to a Play Rough as well so they can't fail to KO or you're a goner.

    So you think that it's no big deal that a Pokémon gets a free kill whenever it enters the playing field? If so, what should ever be banned from OU??
    And just like I mentioned previously, you fail completely to think from a stall or even balanced point of view.
    I am of the completely opposite view.

    Mawilite should be banned.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2014
  8. Rage.

    Rage. [Hero] and [LGI]

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    When I have a defensive Gliscor with Substitute, I go for sub after switching into SD from Mawile. This way I try to stall out Mawiles PR PP's. Hippowdon is as I said on myself, a good check to an extent. I think we are looking for defensive counters/checks, so physically defensive hippo only fitting on stall is not a big problem. I didn't mention SubPunch in my post, since the offensive pressure suppresses the sub simply by staying in mawile. and mawile boosting on outrage from nite can be a problem, but this is simply a basical way of playing aka becoming no set-up bait. i will stop comparing nite and mawile though since they are different mons w/ different weaknesses.

    @ finch i mean that when you see a very dangerous set-up sweeper, then you try to suppress this threat a bit. mawile just won't reliably get subs vs offensively pressuring teams, since they will know what could happen and try to make it not happen etc, offensive teams will always play like this.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2014
  9. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    Ok, that's how SubTox Gliscor works and makes sense, but it still takes a ton of damage from PR and is OHKOd by +2 PR, so it's not really a solid check.

    Imo, Hippo is even usable on bulky-offense, but that's just me, but regardless Hippo is much more common when SDef (for Thundy and others) and physdef Hippo still is only one "check".

    ??? What does basical mean and what's the point you're getting at here

    good

    ps: i agree with basically everything isa said and still think maw is broked
     
  10. Fcheerleaderjoan

    Fcheerleaderjoan New Member

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    we don't need to hurt the viable of megas more then we have already meage mawile is indeed strong but its not impossible to beat

    weakpoints:

    only a mere base 50 speed stat which most walls outspeed and all HO pokemon outspeed meaning nearly everything moves first and can threaten it if there able to take its sucker punch ( yes it can sword dance but no saying they will i seen people no use sword dance or when they have it simple use a attack )

    its weak special bulk means that the common fire attacks will force it out ( most users can handle a sucker punch i'll add that later )

    no recovery ( not that big a deal but a weakness on HO teams )

    lastly it has rather low HP stat only 50

    now onto strong points.

    a monsterous attack stat at base 105 ( effectivly 210 thanks to huge power ) meaning not alot of pokemon can handle its hit in theory but note its not a dark type so its most common means of attacking sucker punch isn't boosted

    Amazing late game sweep power

    strong wall breaking power ( provided its not one with wil-o-wisp or scald )

    and decent typing



    one damage counts

    for some possible stall pokemons

    glisor is one of the best counters to it heres some damage calc


    252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 124-146 (35 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Poison Heal
    ( since alot of people will agure that mawile will have a sword dance up by now )
    +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 246-290 (69.4 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

    while it would be a 2 hit KO remeber that you have poison heal and protect and sub meaning mawile can't hurt you ( you have EQ too )
    0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 170-204 (62 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ( that HP stat showing itself )



    infernape ( which while not being very common is easily useable in OU ) can beat mawile with mixed attacker and mawile can hurt you but not beat you infernape outspeeds 100% of the time heres what happens if they try and stay in on you

    +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 218-256 (74.4 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 218-256 (74.4 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    while you may need to sake something thats common in competitive play so a weak reason in banning it that being said you could just swap this in if you think they'll sword dance and KO with:

    0 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mawile: 330-393 (120.4 - 143.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO ( keep in mind thats 0 evs )
    0 Atk Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 283-338 (103.2 - 123.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO ( again 0 evs )


    rotom-w doesn't care about anything mawile does with wil-o-wisp sadly anything with wil-o-wisp easily handles it and makes otherwise sure KOs weaken heres some exp.
    ( do note these are with +2 which is assumeing don't always assume it'll be at +2 if you do this whole suspect is then based on fear not facts )

    +2 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 201-237 (67.6 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 402-474 (135.3 - 159.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO


    +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 300-353 (101 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 150-176 (50.5 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


    +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 417-491 (108.5 - 127.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 208-245 (54.1 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    ( though politoed can't hurt mawile too much on its own this is just showing the power lose burning does )

    also just to show something fun


    252+ SpA Koffing Fire Blast vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mawile: 170-200 (62 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    ( noone would use koffing but i found this funny )


    so long as the majority of teams have a wil-o-wisp user or scald user mawile has to fear burns and even without them theres many pokemon that can beat it since it only has blunt power nothing else ( the sub build being the only one that i see being a big issue since it can force a swap if used by a skilled player and almost get a free sub everytime )

    if anything ban f-punch on it since then it can't beat its biggest ( if that happen ) counter heatran

    ik i only listen 2 checks but thats because i didn't want to make this too long first post here hope i cleared up at least the assumptoins its too broken
     
  11. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    If you have to resort to PP stalling it every time I would advise you to rethink what you consider as "overpowering". Also what if it decides it has had enough of your shit and uses PR on the switch. You take a big ol' chunk of rekt and Mawile switches out. As it should vs Defensive Gliscor anyway.
    Isa already demonstrated with calcs that PhysDef Hippo is an ass check.
    You never should have started comparing Nite and Mawile,,,

    OK I was unsure about Mawile until I got used to using a team with it that wasn't bad, now I am more or less convinced. We all know that Mawile's attack is dumb, it does horrendous amounts of damage to everything with neutral moves alone, its sub-punch set beats its most common check (tran) in a non-1v1 scenario. Mawile has an immunity to a fairly common move that locks its user in. Yes you probably shouldn't be killing with Outrage while Mawile is still alive, but sometimes it's unavoidable, if Mawile has forced you to either make some ridiculous sac to kill a threat without using Outrage or lose the game because you gave it a single free turn, that pressure is some indication of how dumb it can be and probably a sign that it shouldn't be around.

    Mawile's speed tier is ass, we do not need this repeated in every anti-ban post but it will be anyway. It still out-speeds almost all walls with appropriate investment, it can come in on a choice locked mon with its crisp set of 2 immunities and 8 resistances or any wall with its decent bulk (and intimidate where appropriate). Once it does that it gets a free whack at something, or a Swords Dance. If your opponent has a healthy-looking Lando-T or Gliscor probably best to take a whack and make it not so healthy-looking anymore. The sheer volume of things Mawile can come in on and threaten to OHKO (thus forcing a sac or a switch into something else that is more than likely 2KOd by simply clicking the Play Rough button) is sickening. Not gonna pretend that bulky W-o-WTran is ass or doesn't exist or w/e since I quite like it, but the sub-punch set destroys it so hard that I find it hard to consider it a significant point in the suspect discussion. If your only solid chance to stop this mon tearing huge holes in your team is beaten by an alternate set of that same mon that's equally viable I am not convinced it's a good shout.

    I recently posted to ban Toxicroak in NU and I find myself coming to similar conclusions about Mawile, although Mawile is much worse for the metagame. It's a Pokémon that can create its own opportunities against all but the most offensive teams, and against those offensive teams its priority turns encounters into strings of 50/50s (always fun)
     
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  12. Cosminerul

    Cosminerul New Member

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    Okay , Mega Mawile suspect , at first I was like : ''Eh , it's not that broken''. But been doing some research because I wanted to get a post going on this suspect and imma start with some cons:

    -Pretty bad HP and speed but as Weavile said it can outspeed most walls

    -Its special bulk is pretty decent but the low HP stat cripples it

    Pros:

    -Tremendous base 259 attack which can pretty much punch holes through offensive and even stally teams

    -Access to a attack boosting move -SD- which makes its allready dumb attack to go even higher

    -Decent-ish recovery move in Pain Split

    -A stronger priority move than even Gods *Arceus* ESpeed while holding a Silk Scarf

    The checks depend on the set it is running.Not even the allmighty phisicall wall *Mega Aggron* can deal with this powerhouse.

    252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 178-211 (51.7 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 154-183 (44.7 - 53.1%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO

    As everyone else said Tran is the only true counter it got but SubPunch deals with it.
    Maw being at +2 most times Lando-T comes in to fire an Intimidate it has a high chance to OHKO it with Play Rough.

    +1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 322-379 (84.2 - 99.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Mega Mawile can just destroy most offense that isn't prepared for it.Here we have the Pokemon that can check both sets that Mega Mawile has :

    +1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 173-204 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    -1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Focus Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 171-202 (44.6 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    But for Arcanine to check Mega Mawile it needs spin support.

    From what I allready said , Mega Mawile should be banned from the OU tier.
     
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  13. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    It's true that Infernape can outpace and OHKO mawile while resisting sucker, but I disagree with it being easily usable - Infernape is pretty awful in OU and doesn't really fit onto many teams in general. Also, if you have to sack something every time Mawile comes in, then isn't it doing its job? And if you're foddering something every time Mawile comes in, then eventually you'll just be left with Infernape and Mawile will have done so much work that your "check" in infernape is more of a liability and you'll notice that Mawile actually is broken! So yea, your logic is kinda off and Infernape isn't a solid check, but it's a revenge killer - meaning that at best, it'll be a 1 for 1 trade.

    Why are you calcing with these pokemon and not Rotom-W, which you were just talking about? That makes no sense. Also, Rotom-W can switch in and take one Play Rough, but it's easily a 2hko. It will force Mawile out, but I wouldn't call it that great of a check considering that it gets hit so hard and cannot switch in multiple times unless it gets a timely pain split / rest off before Mawile gets in again.

    If you're saying that Wisp and Scald are why Mawile isn't broken, then doesn't this apply to any non-fire type physical attacker? Does this mean we can unban Groudon??? I don't think so.

    You listed two "checks" that aren't actually checks. Also, banning Focus Punch is a hilariously bad idea - we ban pokemon, not moves. Banning moves only happens in very rare circumstances (i.e: Swagger).
     
  14. .Rawr!

    .Rawr! c(°3°)כ

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    Writing only a bit becos from mobile:

    First, im not pro ban or anti ban, im just gonna put some info i have of my average use of mega mawile these last weeks.
    Well everyone here already stated its features: highest attack in the game, okish bulk + pre ability, nice defensive typing, bad speed, good boosting move (swords dance) and acceptable priority.

    Now to its counters:
    - Im very surprised no one here mentioned the mawile premier counter, mega venusaur. It can resist play rough very well, have leech seed like okish recovery and sleep powder to sleep megamaw. Also hp fire is a 2HKO. (Only iron head versions dent it)
    - Landorus-t was already mentioned, and is in fact a good counter.
    - Bulky char-y with w-o-w can put its weight too, specially if it have roost too

    Well, thats it for now, maybe later i expand my post
     
  15. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 307-363 (84.3 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 156-184 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    I dun like Iron Head but it's common.
    -1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 144-169 (37.6 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    It has no recovery, good counter.
    252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Mega Charizard Y: 129-152 (35.9 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    Rocks

    Yes these are checks, none of them are counters.
    This is a /very/ important distinction to make since literally all of Mega Mawile's proposed "counters" are checks. (You have a counter to the SD set but it doesn't counter SubPunch at all)
     
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  16. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    Just want to say that MegaMawile is literally the strongest Pokemon in the entire game without an obvious stat-up (I said MegaMedicham was stronger before; I lied, 100 < 105. My mistake).

    Either way, that's not the reason I'd say to get rid of it. If that's anyone's only reason, that reason means nothing in the long run seeing that many others could have been sent away for the very same reasons (MegaHeracross has the strongest Bug move in the game...............instant Ubers?)


    My reason for banning it is because of its unbelievable setup capability. This is the kind of Pokemon that can set up on almost anything it wants: Walls, Physical attackers, some Special attackers, Dragons, Poisons, Fairies, and quite a few high-tier Pokemon that don't go under the previous categories. While it may be true for many standard setup sweepers, there are two gigantic differences between the generic killer and Mawile.

    First off, unlike some other high-risk high-reward Pokemon that can set up and cause fear, MegaMawile has almost no risk instead. I'll be frank, it's ABSURDLY EASY to pull off. Intimidate allows it to pop up against a lot of physical threats, its typing makes a complete halt to common Pokemon like Dragons, most Fairies, MegaVenusaur, Scizor, and a ton more, and its sheer power scares the rest off. The easy setup goes mostly like this:

    1. Check opponent's team to find what Mawile scares and is scared of. Prepare battle strategy accordingly.
    2. Switch into Pokemon it scares (sounds hard, right?).
    3. Mega Evolve, force a switch with very little fear, set up with Substitute and/or SD for free.
    4. Check again if the opponent has a way around the setup. If they don't, you win without any obvious doubt.

    Oh, and if we were to assume the tier was split into 50% Special attacker and 50% Physical attacker, MegaMawile can scare around one half of all of the Special attackers and close to 100% on Physical when regarding Intimidate.

    So that's a Pokemon that has approximately 75% effortless win-condition in the tier. Sound broken yet?


    Second, most setup sweepers are rather easy to revenge kill with things like priority, specific walls, phazing, and moves that kill the Pokemon immediately.

    You know what Pokemon in that category matches MegaMawile after being set up? Physically Defensive Hippowdon, Sheer Defensive Landorus-T, Gliscor, Skarmory...........yeah that's just about as close as you can get.

    Sure there are a good amount of checks, but most of them are coinflips in the end because of the other perfectly-reasonable things it can do as well, and having Sucker Punch on the most powerful Pokemon in the game just doesn't seem very fair as after one Swords Dance, you out-prioritize and kill anything that wants to revenge kill you afterwords (true, Sucker Punch isn't a real reason to ban something, but given the circumstances it kind of does here...)


    Simply put, Mawile is a forced win-condition that can be used almost any time. The unrivaled strength that Mawile has only makes it easier to accomplish that said win condition because it makes just about any Pokemon scared shitless of it either before or after setup. It's an easy win for a normally hard battle, and something that can do that shouldn't be in the tier.

    I'm going with the crowd on this one and will say that a ban would be for the better.
     
  17. EJ27

    EJ27 New Member

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    Many people have some valid points here, but in my opinion I am anti-ban. I wont bring up statistics because their are plenty already up. But in my experience on PO IN facing both ho and stall teams i have never had a whole lot of trouble dealing with Mawile. Hell ive had more trouble dealing with sheer force Landorus. Allow to me to reiterate that with the sheer amount of will-o-wisps flying around is easy to force a switch of Mawile. Indimitate forces switches. A counter that i have been using that i have also noticed on other teams is a support CHAR-X.

    Charizard (M) @ Charizardite X

    Shiny: Yes
    Trait: Blaze
    EVs: 248 HP / 140 SDef / 120 Spd
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    Will-O-Wisp
    Roost
    Dragon Claw
    Earthquake

    Thats the set that I use very Effective. When used in a good core can not only

    Destroy Mawile but other Poke's as well.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 3, 2014
  18. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 255-300 (71 - 83.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Clean counter that can't even switch in. Even if Stealth Rock isn't up, you can't OHKO, and burned Mega Mawile is still strong enough to kill your Charizard after it switches in on Play Rough:
    0 Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 148-176 (54 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 255-300 (71 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 127-150 (35.3 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
     
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  19. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt. Tier Leader Server Administrator Tier Leader Server Administrator

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    Before if you'd have told me that MMawile was broken I'd have laughed at you. Sure, it hits really hard and is a scary threat to most teams but it has a couple decent switch ins that aren't KOed if it clicks an attack, and can outspeed and KO or burn it. It's less simple than that obviously and what SD Mawile has is generally checks at best but it on its own is pretty manageable IMO.

    I think it's the emergence of the SubPunch set in particular that has dragged me kicking and screaming into the pro-ban camp. The ease with which that set beats the few things that stop the SD set, as well as clearing things up for MMawile to do its usual job of punching huge holes in pokemon, is actually kind of insane and there's little to no way to scout out the set without losing a pokemon for it. MMawile only needs 2 sets to be overwhelming for the tier and though I am loath to say it, it needs to go.

    PS Im mad that gamefreak took one of my favourite pokemon which they'd forgotten forever and instead of just making it good they made it ridiculous and most likely uber. Now it probably won't even be great in NU :[
     
  20. EJ27

    EJ27 New Member

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    I apologize as I suffer from something so simple as writing a well written and coherent thought. I failed to explain they way I most often go about dispatching Mawile as well as the way that Charizard-X set functions. We can all pretty much agree that most opponents won't expect to see will-o-wisp on a Charizard-X or that set specifically. The way I usually proceed is to bait out mawile by switching a check to a pokemon that the opponent currently has on the field one that Mawile can easily switch into. Then Mawile expecting an easy switch would come in thinking it would boost or sub for free. That is when you employ what I call the "double Switch". Switch out to check and bait, then switch to counter. This is essentially you bring out your counter or check against Mawile or that Char-X set for free barring stealth rock damage. But it does not stop their if you for example apply the "double switch" and summon a definite counter like Landorus or a pokemon Mawile can not beat with prior damage you know the opposing player will attempt to switch to deal with your counter or check. That is when you knowing that and being observant of the team preview then predict the pokemon the opposing player will switch to and move accordingly. Either switching to another counter or check, or hitting hard with the pokemon currently in battle. Another thing I understand the need to put up damage Calculations but that shouldnt be the "be all and end all" in determine a pokemons status in a tier. I feel that often times the skill of the players are often left out of the factoring of a pokemon's placement and the numbers overshadow it in that regard. Again I apologize for my noobiness, as this is my first time essentially posting on PO let alone any forum. So bear with me and thank you for taking what I have to say into consideration.
     
  21. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    I'll be gentle since I am posting from my phone, but if the premier check has to switch in on one of the moves that aren't the most frequently used (Play Rough) and you have to make two correct predictions (meaning that if your opponent surprises you, you're toasted) to get there, I would take that as a sign of a broken Pokemon.

    PS. WoW Zard X is not uncommon at higher levels of play.
     
  22. Axily

    Axily PO chick

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    Nothing can switch in directly if the op has mawile. Moreover mawile thanks to intimidate has good switch-in on phisical sweepers (that are a lot in this meta).
    Landorus can check it but even if it has intimidate play rough has a powerful damage to switch-in it directly.
    Ferrothorn, aegislash , skarmory and steels in general (except heatran) die with Fire Fang.

    I wanna focus on Aegislash : it can help with king's shield to drop the atk and use shadow ball (if it is max speed) to try to damage it hardly:
    252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mawile: 168-198 (61.3 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    But it gets okhoed by fire fang.
    Even if you are running a life orb and you have srock setted, OKHO is not guarantee.
    252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mawile: 218-257 (79.5 - 93.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock.
    U can try to outspeed mawile with the priority but...4 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 66-79 (24 - 28.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock.
    And these calcs are based on 132 evs in hp. People is still using mmawile full hp.

    Another check: Venusaur.
    Even if it resists to his stab a and it doesn't OKHO mmawile with HP fire...
    0 SpA Mega Venusaur Hidden Power Fire vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mawile: 108-128 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
    And +2 Fire fang..... +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 170-200 (46.7 - 54.9%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
    Even if venusaur has synthesis, it has hardly life to stall it.


    And if it dances? We can try to use Unaware Quagsire?
    252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 222-262 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 160-189 (40.6 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    and even if quagsire's earthquake gets 2okho....
    0 Atk Quagsire Earthquake vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 156-186 (56.9 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    we must remember sucker punch... 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 132-156 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- 22.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Another check can be Keldeo.
    +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 179-211 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    It resists to his powerful sucker punch, and okho mmawile with Hpump (but we must hope to not have a miss).


    Bulky grounds like Lando-t , Hippwodon and Gliscor are always damaged by play rough.

    The only good check for sdance can be Heatran, but if mmawile has sub punch set it is in trouble.

    Other checks are pikès fro UU like Arcanine and Mega aggron.... But if they're UU i think there's a reason lol.

    I think that Mega Mawile is too powerful for the ou metagame, so Mawilite should be banned.
     
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  23. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    About Heatran being a good check to SD Mega Mawile...

    +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 313-369 (81.2 - 95.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Ofcourse Heatran could Roar on your Sucker Punch but hind sight is 20/20... Brick Break is also a thing I've seen used on Mawile:

    +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 414-488 (117.6 - 138.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Brick Break vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 294-348 (76.3 - 90.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    SubPunch is cool and all, but if you can't get a free Sub half your set becomes invalid which is a risk you're taking compared to the SD set. 4 attacks Mawile is also a great lure; Fire Fang for Ferrothorn/Scizor, Ice Punch for Landorus-T and Gliscor and then Sucker Punch for priority and Play Rough for STAB.

    I'm not sure if Mawile is broken or not so I'll leave it at that.
     
  24. Alexander.

    Alexander. Active Member

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    mega mawile has an insane attack thanks to huge power combined with sword dance, a ton of good coverage moves (focus punch, iron head, fire fang, knock off) which allows to bypass its already few checks, a good bulkyness for a sweeper, a really good typing both offensively and defensively and a good base form ability in intimidate which makes setups even easier. checks like landorus-t, heatran, skarmory and venusaur are or easily to wear down (landorus-t) or can be destroyed by the right coverage move (the other 3) so they aren't reliable at all. also, while it's really slow it can count on a sucker punch which is stronger than silk scarf arceus's extreme speed so even if it's unstabbed it deals lot of damages. i wouldn't call a sucker punch that 2hkoes garchomp at +2 weak. finally, i wanted to add that while mons like arcanine and weezing can deal with it pretty nicely, it's also true that they're quite useless against the rest of the metagame as well, so people use them just for mawile. that is another evidence of how much mawile is centralizing in the metagame right now and therefore it needs to leave for all the attributes it has i mentioned before, which makes it just unhealthy and too strong for the xy oy tier itself.
     
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  25. Rage.

    Rage. [Hero] and [LGI]

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    [Hero]Zapdos.
    pls, stop arguing that sucker punch from mawile is stronger than arc's espeed. talonflame's bb, bisharp's sucker are so aswell, and a drum-boosted azumarill's jet (compared to +2 eka) too. any of them are about as strong or stronger than eka and non of them is even controversial in the metagame (excluding mawile). i agree that mawiles prio is strong, but comparisons to a mon that has never even been tested for ou are not really that valid. you can argue 'strong enough to ohko x', but not 'stronger than uber mon y' since ubers don't concern this discussion at all. plus 120 base atk w/ 80 bp isn't overwhelming at itself(don't misunderstand me, arceus would be overwhelming, but the reasons are other ones), and sucker's dark typing is different from espeed's normal one.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2014
  26. Alexander.

    Alexander. Active Member

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    i'm not comparing mawile with arceus. obv arceus has always been in the uber tier for a reason. i compared mawile's sucker punch with arceus' extreme speed just to make clear that mawile's priotity isn't weak, even if it's unstabbed since i have seen around lot of people that still think that mawile's priority move is weak. sorry for misunderstanding
     
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  27. Rage.

    Rage. [Hero] and [LGI]

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    [Hero]Zapdos.
    i didn't really misunderstand your post, since you gave a reason why it isn't /weak/, but i see some people saying that, quoting, 'it is stronger than the GOD itself', (which is just a 120 base atk mon). they use the pokemon arceus to make it look overwhelming. maybe it is, but it must have other reasons than this. the arguments are fine in general (even though i personally disagree), but arceus (and any other ubers) should just remain unmentioned.
     
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  28. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    I was trying to point out that Mega Mawile's Sucker Punch is far from weak as well. I was trying to deter the argument that Mega Mawile's Sucker Punch is not STAB, and therefore, weak.
     
  29. SilentYoshi

    SilentYoshi Future Pokemon Master

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    It's not definitely that Mega Mawile will set up a swords dance as Mega Mawile has super high attack however has low speed+hp which limits it's sweeping abilities, but it can run 2 different sets which both the SD+3 attacks and subpunch are very powerful, however pokemon like mega manetric can beat SD mega mawile and defensive rotom wash can will o wisp it, crippling it, but it has a good defensive typing+decent bulk excluding hp, other pokemon like mega charizard y and max defense skarmory can beat or whirlwind mega mawile, but mega mawile has decent coverage with the moves of:
    Play Rough
    Sucker Punch
    Swords Dance
    Iron Head/Fire Fang

    Another set is subpunch which I use more than the SD set and finds it more efficient of sweeping however I have fought a +5 sub mega mawile and beat it with kyurem black by winning the prediction game but that doesn't prove anything and as Sucker Punch is not STAB many things can survive it so I think Mawilite should not be banned.
     
  30. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Round 2!

    This is very true and means that when you plan your switches you must always check not only if you can tank a +2 Sucker Punch, but also if you can switch in on a +0 Play Rough/Focus Punch/coverage move.
    Right. That's why Mega Mawile isn't a sweeper, rather it's the most fearsome wallbreaker the tier has seen. Wallbreakers aren't meant to sweep - what's dangerous about Mega Mawile is that it actually can sweep in a lot of cases, despite not being intended to do so.
    Very true. This makes scouting Mega Mawile incredibly difficult.
    This is where you fall off the track.
    -1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 222-262 (79 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - Sucker Punch obviously kills here.
    +1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 295-348 (104.9 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO - so you can't switch in on its main STAB, nor can you switch in on a Swords Dance.

    Rotom-Wash can switch in once and WoW versus the SD set, but what good does that do?
    252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 192-226 (63.1 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 96-113 (31.5 - 37.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

    With Stealth Rock up, that's a guaranteed KO, so you devoted an entire Pokémon slot solely to burn - not kill - your opponent. If Mega Mawile has a Latias with Healing Wish or Chansey with Heal Bell on its side, you've wasted Rotom-W for very little.

    Back on track. With arguably the best defensive typing in the game and a solid offensive typing as well, Mega Mawile can deter its opponent from using certain attacks just through its existence.
    Both succumb to Stealth Rock.
    252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 169-200 (56.9 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 304-358 (91 - 107.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (with leftovers, that's a ~87.5% chance to KO, but yeah)

    Phazing out Mega Mawile only postpones the problem either way.

    Back on track. This is the most common set, Fire Fang becomes more common the higher up the ladder you come though. Knock Off is also an option, but in my posts I am assuming Fire Fang.
    SubPunch is mostly a way to get around the most common would-otherwise-be counter, Heatran. I wouldn't argue that it's a sweeper either way, but it's a valid set and one you must be able to counter somehow if you want to call yourself a counter.
    Nail on the head - that does not prove anything.
    Mega Absol has a weaker Sucker Punch and has STAB on it. Same goes for Bisharps using Focus Sash or Assault Vest or similar items.
    +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 344-405 (96.3 - 113.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock <-- this is not weak.
    [​IMG]
     
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  31. SilentYoshi

    SilentYoshi Future Pokemon Master

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    Im not saying rotom, zard y, skarmory, and manectric are checks, my thought process is that they switch in after a pokemon faints. Another thing is that Mega Mawile can't run all it's good moves at once, I still think Mawilite should not be banned.
     
  32. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    So what you're saying is: Mawile gets a free kill every time it gets in the game and then another pokemon can either force it out or get weakened in return for killing Mawile. I don't see how anyone can believe Mega-Mawile isn't broken if they, admittedly, have to fodder something every time it comes in. That literally plays right into it being broken and scenarios like this lead to it getting 2-3 kills per match, hypothetically.
     
  33. SilentYoshi

    SilentYoshi Future Pokemon Master

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    Use a defensive pokemon like landorus_T or hippowdon, besides, I thought the teirs are based on usage, not usefulness or power, another think is most of these calculations include stealth rock damage, you're not always gonna get stealth rocks up.

    Edit: After much time, of research and looking through the thread again, this may be the last post, Mega Mawile is impossible to check and has to much bulk and power and this is proved by many calculations, I reconsider that Mawilite should be banned, end of thread.

    Note from Sinclair - Don't double post. :]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 11, 2014
  34. Rage.

    Rage. [Hero] and [LGI]

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    impossible to check is nonsense. it does have solid checks, and even a p much counter in landy-t or hippo. mluc also was checkable, yet it has been banned. same goes kangask, deo-s and even deo-n. having no checks (no counters mons exist, no checks mons don't really) would lead to a quickban, yet has the community needed about 9 months to figure out that mmawile is even controversial in the metagame. thus, having no checks is faaaaaar away from reality.

    /e: my point was that he says its impossible to check. nothing is impossible to check, and mawile isnt either. i don't really bother arguing well since the discussion is almost entirely pro-ban so it wouldnt even change anything.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2014
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  35. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Isa
    Why do you keep saying that Hippowdon is a check or even close to a counter? What part of "not OHKOing while being outsped and almost OHKO'd without any prior damage" makes Hippowdon a counter? Hippowdon doesn't even want to maximize its defense stat - and it's also residing in NU as of now, so there's that too...!

    Landorus-T is the best overall response to Mawile - but a Pokémon needed to set Stealth Rocks will have to take damage at some point previously in the game, assuming it to be at full health is naive. You can switch usually in once but not twice. That's not a counter and it's a shaky check as it has no reliable recovery.

    And just like with Genesect, where one counter (Heatran) isn't enough to keep it in the tier, having one shaky check isn't enough.
     
  36. MetalGross

    MetalGross gems…

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    After reviewing this with Sinclair, we've decided to ban Mawilite. Mega-Mawile has a great typing coupled with the ability to run 2 different, viable sets that are able to take on the counters of each other sets meaning that there is no safe switch in to Mega-Mawile, while it can easily find opportunites to come in. In the free turns that Mawile gets due to its typing and reasonable defenses, it could either set up a Sub or get its Attack stat raised by 2 stats. This meant that most of the time you needed to sacrifice a pokemon just to get a shot at revenge killing Mega-Mawile. Therefore we concluded that Mega-Mawile was too much for the metagame. Thanks for participating.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2014
    Oh So Penspin, meeps, Isa and 5 others like this.
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