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September + October XY UU Tier/Potential Suspects Discussion

Discussion in 'Gen 6 UU' started by meeps, Sep 1, 2014.

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  1. meeps

    meeps Well-Known Member

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    meeps
    Banlist:
    Aegislash, Azumarill, Bisharp, Blissey, Breloom, Charizard, Chansey, Clefable, Conkeldurr, Donphan, Dragonite, Espeon, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Garchomp, Gardevoir, Gengar, Gliscor, Greninja, Gyarados, Heatran, Infernape, Keldeo, Landorus-I, Landorus-T, Latias, Latios, Mamoswine, Mandibuzz, Manectric, Mawile, Pinsir, Rotom-W, Scizor, Skarmory, Sylveon, Talonflame, Thundurus, Togekiss, Tyranitar, Venusaur, Zapdos

    UU -> OU
    Donphan
    Manectric
    Latias

    OU -> UU
    Diancie

    UU -> LU
    Empoleon
    Heracross
    Houndoom
    Roserade

    LU -> UU
    Aerodactyl
    Doublade
    Entei
    Machamp
    Porygon2
    Snorlax

    NU -> UU
    Chesnaught

    Quantity-wise, these have been the more lackluster in changes in our Tier, with only 3 rises and 1 drop. However, you may notice one of our favorite Defoggers and overall beefy dragon Latias rose, taking along with one of our best special Mega Evos, Manectric. Since UU is a ferocious battle to see which pokemon will take the "Mega spot", this could help other Mega Evos cement their position in the Tier, like MegaCham and MegaToise.

    Like in the last period, the UU->LU drops and the LU/NU->UU rises are shown to catch the player's attention to some of the pokemon that have started to gone low-profile and once represented great powers in UU, like Heracross. I guarantee you they're all still fresh for use in the tier.

    You are encouraged to voice opinions about the new drops/rises in this thread, as well as potential suspects. In fact, those are the "only" two things we want you do to around here. Argumentation should be without backless theorymonning, ad hominem attacks or irrelevant pieces of information. Anyone that goes off the line will be infracted.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2014
  2. Beastly

    Beastly Active Member

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    Diance is very interesting and could be diverse at the beginning till we basically get the main sets figured out
    Latias manetric and donphan left damn. Latias was a great defoggers and a outstanding dragon type. Mega Man has left uu losing one of our best volt switchers in the tier. Donphan i didnt even see get used that much. Strange but eh whatever was nice for rocks and spin but thats not going to be there anymore.
     
  3. Virizion

    Virizion ~ Taste the Rainbow ~

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    So we've lost Mega Manectric, Latias, and Donphan, three great Pokemon in the UU Metagame. Mega Manectric had a fantastic Special Attack, Speed with just the right movepool to go along with it. It even had Intimidate to potentially cripple those physical attacking threats, and then grabbing some offensive momentum with Volt Switch. The loss of Latias and Donphan will probably increase Mew's stupidly high 15% usage even higher, due to being the best hazard remover in UU for sure now, thanks to it's overall good bulk, as well as it allowing to perform as a stallbreaker. I'll believe that Forretress and Crobat will get more usage as well, thanks to the lower competition.

    I don't have too much to say about the season changes this time around, but it looks to be a pretty interesting season.

    But Donphan in OU lol
     
  4. ZoroDark

    ZoroDark i know everything

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    I'm 100% sure meeps didn't write the OP.

    Fun to see Chesnaught get the usage it deserves because it's a great Pokémon that's never really let me down. Aerodactyl is a terrific Pokémon too and I feel like UU is where it really belongs. Doublade is really only because of Mega Medicham lol. Loss of Latias, Mega Manectric and Donphan (???) sucks but I'm sure we'll see most of them back in UU at some point.

    I'm amazing that Heracross dropped though. I guess if Mega Medicham gets the boot , it should regain some of its lost shine in UU.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2014
  5. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Meh nothing too interesting here, no idea why Donphan is being used in OU, shame to see Lati go as it was one of the best Defoggers in the tier and Healing Wish was fun with Offense, and RIP Mega Manecctric, possibly my favourite UU mega.

    Also UUTL suck for not banning Volc sooner cuz it meant ppl were spamming Aero/AV Entei/Lax/Psych Up P2(huehue) to beat it, now LU lose lots of mons and I have to build new teams, so fuk u meeps.
     
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  6. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    I still never quite understood why no one used Hera.... Perhaps he'll wreck shit in LU and come back home.

    Diance is an interesting little tool. Has pretty chill stats, as well as a workable move pool. We might see more Iron Tail/Head coverage on mons now.

    Latias is also leaving again. I hate everyone that plays OU for toying with my emotions. At least stop using Togekiss... Togekiss sucks.

    None of the other change I really care about. Its just funny to see everything that was previously used to combat Volc moved up. Sad, sad day.
     
  7. Windblown

    Windblown sable knight

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    OU literally taking away my favorite UU Electrics, at least I can use Raikou now and save the Mega slot, but Mega Manectric is just so useful for offense

    I also dislike losing Latias again because I personally absolutely hate Mew and would always use Latias/Zapdos as a Defogger, looks like I'm just using Rapid Spinners now

    ????? @ Donphan, at least that thing's not there to cockblock my Volt Switches I guess
     
  8. Enei

    Enei WAFSTB

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    imo Zygarde need to be suspected. Zygarde is incredibly potent offensively, being able to run Coil, DD, and a Para shuffling set. Each set is incredibly potent in the current metagame and Zygarde is fairly unpredictable in what set it chooses to run. The main problem I have with Zygarde is its great bulk and typing. 108 / 121 / 95 defenses make Zygarde very difficult to revenge kill on the physical side after it's gotten a DD or two, and is almost impossible after 2 coils. Zygarde also has access to (arguably) the best priority move in the game (Extremespeed) which it can pretty much spam at free will due to the lack of common Steel + Ghost types in the tier, allowing it to act as a revenge killer to if needed.
     
  9. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    Based on the fact that this thread is up I'm going to assume UU will still be having suspects. I do believe Zygarde deserves a suspect at the very least. It is one of the most threatening set up sweepers in UU. It has its way with most offensive/balanced teams, and can serve as an effective wallbreaker if needed. Its defensive sets are great but I believe they are not as effective as the sweeping sets based on the way the metagame is layed out. Fantastic bulk and great typing give Zygarde plenty of opportunities to set up as well as fantastic neutral coverage.

    Base 95 speed can either be seen as a curse or a blessing. You will ALWAYS need 2 DD's to outpace Scarf Mence, Dreigon, and Terrakion. You can see that as a downside, or a benefit because Zygarde can then place a good chunk of EV's into HP to improve it's already fantastic bulk.

    Zygarde is easily one of the, if not the best Pokemon in UU right now. It fits in well on every team archetype and doesn't require much support to work well.
    There is also more said in the last few posts of the July/August thread.
     
  10. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    A pokemon I've been using quite recently is Gothorita, and while I don't believe she's near as bad as her big sis was, I'd argue that she's unhealthy for the metagame.

    While she can perform a similar function to Gothitelle in trapping and killing walls, there are a few weaknesses of hers that make her not as powerful. Firstly, her power and speed suffer quite a bit, making all attempts to run a Specs (or as I've seen a couple times, Scarf) laughably weak. There's also the fact that her dependence on Eviolite not only makes her more susceptible to Knock Off, but also means no lefties and allows some mons that wouldn't be able to kill Big Goth to take her down. As a direct result of the aforementioned two weaknesses, she is less likely to sweep and is also less likely to be able to take out multiple pokemon.

    Unfortunately, even with all these weaknesses that big Goth didn't have, Gothorita still fulfills the wall-trapping role extremely well, almost always being able to pave the way for dangerous sweepers like Daunt, Mence, Zygarde, and Thundurus. It can set up on most defensive pokemon that don't hold SE attacks (and even some that do), some offensive pokemon that don't, and virtually every Choice user that gets locked into an ineffective move. It's best set IMO is:

    Gothorita (F) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Shadow Tag
    EVs: 248 HP, 252 Def, 10 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    -Rest
    -Calm Mind
    -Psyshock
    -Shadow Ball/Signal Beam/HP Fire or Fighting/Thunderbolt/whatever

    It's relatively simple to use: send in against something that can't kill it easily, CM as much as you can until it needs to rest. Repeat until it gets to +6/+6, then kill with Psyshock or whatever coverage move you gave it. Speaking of which, the coverage move depends entirely on what sweeper you intend to use. Really simple to use and takes down plenty of common pokemon, such as Florges, non-Taunt Mew, Tang, Chesnaught, Alom, and (depending on the coverage move), possibly some really powerful pokemon like Mega Blastoise or Mega Aggron.

    However, as I mentioned in the Gothitelle suspect thread, the problem isn't Goth nor its older sister. The problem is the broken ability that is shadow tag. Being able to prevent a pokemon from switching to a more favorable matchup defies one of the most fundamental aspects of competitive pokemon. And unlike pursuit, shadow tag doesn't take up a moveslot and doesn't leave it up to prediction. And the other legal shadow tag user Wobbuffet, while not as easy-mode and dangerous, is still a massive pain in the read to deal with specifically because of Shadow Taf

    So, long story short, I believe that Shadow Tag is broken as heck almost regardless of the user, and it should be suspected. And if it does end up getting banned, Goth should come free, as without Tag, it's just a semi-decent special tank.
     
  11. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    Completely agree with all of OUAzumarill's post. What made Gothitelle really broken imo was the CM Rest set, the Trick and the Specs set were fine but the point of using Goth I believe is to brainlessly trap and remove key walls from your opp's side of the field for something to rip through (for example, Goth traps Florges, Hydreigon gets a kill every time it comes in), and no set does that better than the CM Rest set, I don't get why you would ever use the Trick sets, I mean like vs a Mew..would you rather cripple it with Trick or set up to +6 and remove it from the game? I guess Scarf could help it trap and revenge kill something but it's weak as fuck and you're better of using another revenge killer.
    In regards to Gothorita, it actually pulls of the CM Rest set better with the help of Eviolite giving it much higher defenses, which lets it set up more easily on physical stuff like Arcanine. It sets up on a plethora of defensive mons in the tier which include Mew, Slowbro, Suicune, Goodra, Florges, VS-less Forretress, Chesnaught, Roserade, Milotic, Arcanine, Jirachi, WW-less Snorlax, Rhyperior, Quagsire, Tangrowth, Pory2, Bronzong, Alomomola, it keeps going. Physdef is easily the best set for it, as it allows it to take pitiful damage from stuff like defensive Rhyp and Arcanine and set up to +6 with ease. So yea, I think Shadow Tag really needs to get suspected because imo it's like the only blatantly broken thing in this tier.
    -----
    On Zygarde, I think there are more than enough viable/commonly used mons that can check or counter it. Aromatisse, Suicune (Ice Beam makes Cune a very good Dragon counter, you don't always need CroCune), Pory2 (if you're using it for Dragons, run physdef investment), Slowbro, Mew, Swampert, Chesnaught, Tangrowth, Quagsire, Mega Blastoise (a very solid check, OHKOes with Ice Beam) and even some lesser used (but still very viable) stuff like Cress and Bronzong all stop DD Zygarde with Moonblast, HP Ice, or Ice Beams. I think in the last discussion Weavile asked me if I was high for thinking Mega Blast is a good check.

    Vs. DD
    +1 252+ Atk Zygarde Earthquake vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 192-226 (55.8 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Mega Blastoise Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 464-548 (129.9 - 153.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    It seems like you're implying that Mega Blast comes in on a +1 EQ, not right when Zygarde sets up its first DD. When you see any set-up sweeper, you should bring in your check or counter immediately as the set-up sweeper comes in for fear of letting it get too out of hand. You giving it a free +1 is just a misplay on your part. Standard MBlastoise only gets 3HKOed by +0 Zygarde and only takes around 60 from +1 EQ and OHKOes back with Ice Beam, that's how a check should function more or less. Not to mention defense investment on Blastoise is also common, it helps it deal better with Crawdaunt and other Dragons, etc. In this case, Mega Blast checks it even easier as +1 EQ is a 3HKO on a 180/252+ Mega Blast (72 in Spe to outspeed Crawdaunt), and Ice Beam still OHKOes. Zygarde just doesn't hit hard enough imo, Life Orb is pretty rare as Lefties or Lum are just better in a lot of scenarios.

    -----
    I still think Crawdaunt needs to go, or at least get retested. You can tell how centralizing it is just by the recent usage increases. MBlast which is its main check is currently #1 in usage, Chesnaught rose from NU and is sitting at above 4%, Tangrowth is around 4.6%, etc. I've already rambled on about Crawdaunt forever so this is just to see if others find it also re-suspect worthy.
     
  12. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    This is why Mega Blast isn't really a good check
    252+ Atk Zygarde Earthquake vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 127-151 (36.9 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    +1 252+ Atk Zygarde Outrage vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 229-271 (66.5 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    After one switch, assuming no other damage, Blastoise becomes literally useless. Setting up willy nilly is also misplay on the Zygarde users part.

    Aromatisse is no better than Florges. With Crocune being the best set by a large margin, it is often times less effective to run another set. Even if that is the case (running a non-Crocune set), with just Rocks as prior damage, Suicune has a 64.5% chance of just losing. If LO Zygarde gets to +1, Suicune is 2hko'd. +1 LO Zygarde also beats Slowbro. LO Zygarde's EQ puts Mew into range for Outrage 2hko'ing. Mew would need to find a way to heal up within the next few turns it is in play. Swampert suffers from the same thing Slowbro does. Tangrowth gets 2hko'd by +1 LO Zygarde. Quagsire has trouble with LO Zygarde too. Chesnaught also loses to +1 LO Zygarde.

    Those mons are only good for checking standard DD/Sub Coil. Those two items (Lefties/Lum) are actually not better in a lot of situations. It's simply saying, do I want a wallbreaker or a sweeper? That's how you choose your item. LO makes the walls in the tier shudder, and Lum/Lefties help sweeping ability. You seem to only know how Zygarde effects defensively oriented teams. Against offensive teams, Zygarde just does work. They easily have the most trouble with it. I'm simply saying it deserves a suspect. I'm not arguing for its ban in this thread, although I will if a suspect comes out, I'm just giving reasons for why I think it needs to be suspected at the very least.

    Sub Coil, Sub DD, standard DD, and the defensive sets perform incredibly well against more offensive teams. DD + LO makes Zygarde an amazing wallbreaker, as well as having the potential to sweep just as well as the other DD sets.
     
  13. Baron Corm

    Baron Corm New Member

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    Choice Band Victini has similar wallbreaking power to Mega Medicham, and even counters him, yet the latter was banned while the former sits at #2 usage after the only good mega/spinner left (Mega Blastoise).

    Victini can also run an equally viable Scarf set, so don't tell me Mega Medicham was better as a revenge killer. You never know if that Victini can revenge kill you or not.

    Finally, Victini has huge bulk and nice resistances, making it difficult to OHKO. I know personally whenever I make a team, that's the one pokemon I have a hell of a time trying to figure out what to do. He learns Bolt Strike to shut down your idea of using a water type, and can even viably run Grass Knot or Energy Ball, in case you're thinking Swampert.

    His ability to U-Turn just adds to this, making him a constant and difficult Pokemon to predict and take down. Finally, he is immune to burns. Even that one guy, Sableye, isn't a counter. You need to Foul Play or Knock Off on a switch INTO Victini to take him out.

    I would say he is definitely both too strong and centralizing for this tier. I think he deserves a suspect.

    Throwing calcs down to support what I just said.

    252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 123-146 (31.2 - 37%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
    252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 119-141 (30.2 - 35.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

    0- SpA Victini Energy Ball vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 256-304 (63.8 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 318-375 (104.6 - 123.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252 Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 304-358 (83.9 - 98.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Blastoise: 226-266 (62.4 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 232-274 (57.4 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 238-282 (60.4 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252 Atk Choice Band Victini U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 130-154 (32.9 - 39%) -- 10% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery


    EDIT: This was moved from the Gen 5 UU thread, since it probably belongs here.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 29, 2014
  14. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Usage has little to do with "brokenness", and unless it's like 40% it shouldn't be brought up really.
    Blastoise 18.6995 7066
    Florges 18.6307 7040
    Victini 18.583 7022
    Florges is not broken.

    It can run a Scarf set yes. But then it can't 2KO Slowbro and Suicune with Bolt Strike, and similar things like that. But it is somethin' to consider if you're running offense I suppose. But you can't mention the scarf set and gloss over the fact that it loses about a third of its power.

    Victini's bulk is decent, don't try to pass it off as "Huge" when it is (almost) always uninvested and it is weak to SR AND V-Create makes it worse whenever its used. Also Fire is a bad defensive typing and a Dark weakness is a horrible thing to have, 7 of the top 10 Pokémon (Excluding Victini itself and taking number 11 in its place) commonly run moves that hit Victini for Super Effective damage, Mew can make it 8/10 if its an SD Sucker Punch set. It can indeed run Eball or Grass Knot if you're thinking of Pert. But not on a CB Set, Ebelt/LO Mixtini sure, CB Energy Ball, no thanks, I like not being setup bait for literally anything beyond Rock Polish Rhyperior.

    U-Turn is a great move, but it can't spam U-Turn if you make an effort to keep rocks up, which you should do when facing a Victini. Good to know that Sableye isn't a counter, I don't think anyone said it was.

    You forgot the most important calcs of all;
    -1 252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 102-120 (26.6 - 31.3%) -- 41.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    Yum
    -1 252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 212 HP / 240+ Def Salamence: 102-121 (26.5 - 31.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
    Yum
    252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rhyperior: 110-129 (25.3 - 29.7%) -- 20.2% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    Yum
    252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rhyperior: 146-172 (33.6 - 39.6%) -- 87.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    0- SpA Victini Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 180-213 (41.4 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (not that I advocate using CB Energy Ball Victini, that's dumb)
    Yum

    See the issue with your comparison to Mega Cham is that Mega Cham has that disgusting power with a resistance to rocks and the ability to actually switch moves, AND it has stronger coverage moves since the only reason V-Create compares to HJK is because it has 50 more base power, you cannot compare 2 Pokémon that are completely functionally different because they both hit hard. Victini has completely different attributes. Rocks weakness, much less offensive power without a CB or using V-Create which has its own drawbacks, Victini can go mixed or full special, Cham definitely can't, and Victini is bulkier without factoring in weaknesses or rocks and perhaps most importantly, HJK doesn't lower 3 of your stats when you use it.

    I'm not sure if Victini does deserve a suspect or not. But the comparison to Mega-Cham and the ignoring of some of the more reliable and completely viable checks is wrong.

    Enslave Zygarde pls
     
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  15. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    yea could we have a zygarde suspect. zygarde is simply way too bulky and has 2 excellent set-up moves that help it either dismantle offense or dismantle stall. furthermore ground/dragon typing is amazing both offensively and defensively, being weak to only 3 moves is pretty good and it also comes with a really neat set of resistances that gives it a lot of opportunities to set-up with its boosting move, such as victini/terrak/slowbro and most defensive mons. Even florges can't even solidly 2hko the subcoil set (200hp/252sdef) and that simply shows how bulky it is. zygarde isn't a slouch offensively either, 1dd is all it needs to clean offensive teams provided their scarfer doesn't have a super effective move to hit it hard or doesnt have weavile or packs many prio users.

    secondly, i would like to bring up scolipede as a potential discussion point. honestly scolipede is a threat that really went under the radar. with the lack of spinners and defoggers in the tier currently, lead scolipede is simply amazing as both mega blastoise and mew are completely stopped by sdef sableye. the ability to provide both spikes and tspikes cripples both offensive and defensive teams because both layers will accumulate over time and can really take a toll incredibly quickly. spikestacking punishes switches as you take a lot more damage even if you make a good double switch if you are unable to take away the hazards. scolipede is guarenteed able to get up a layer of either spikes/tspikes because speed boost+protect outruns every single taunter bar prankster sableye. endeavor is probably the biggest selling point of scolipede, if you knock it down to sash range you risk scolipede bringing all your health down to 1hp as well and with the layer of spikes that scolipede just set up on the previous turn, it acts as a pseudo-pursuit. lead scolipede is capable of getting up a layer of spikes + trading kills with the opponent and its a win/lose situation for the lead scolipede user. offensive scolipede is also really good currently, i've been trying it out along with SD+BP absol and it has never failed to impress me by sweeping whole teams. the only thing that can really stop +2 scolipede is mega aggron, and that is extremely easy to wear down because of its lack of reliable recovery or leftovers and that simply makes offensive scolipede such a potent threat. finally scolipede can also serve as a baton passer itself and pass its speed boosts and a potential sd boost to very threatening wallbreakers such as victini. it's honestly pretty difficult to guess scolipede's set correctly and each one of them have its way around punishing the opponent by setting up or sweeping them. sableye is the only universal counter i have played against that can really take on scolipede since it can burn it to prevent it from sweeping and taunt it to prevent it from setting up entry hazards or baton passing its boosts away. it's also why mega absol is an amazing partner with offensive scolipede, and people should use this two together more. I'll even drop off the core here:

    Scolipede (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Speed Boost
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Megahorn
    - Poison Jab
    - Earthquake
    - Protect

    Absol (M) @ Absolite
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Swords Dance
    - Play Rough
    - Sucker Punch
    - Baton Pass

    how to use:
    mega absol forces a lot of switches with its very strong sucker punch and the huge number of psychics only helps it set up a SD very easily. Play Rough donks stuff like Terrakion and other fighting-types. however mega absol still struggles to beat florges and aromattise, and this is where baton pass comes in extremely helpful, passing it to scolipede and going to town vs the opponent's team. Scolipede+absol+victini is fantastic together. Scolipede completely breaks offense-based teams while ebelt/LO victini decimates stall. nothing really wants to eat a +2 v-create and it just does a hugeeeeee chunk of damage to even physically defensive waters such as suicune and slowbro, and you still have bolt strike to play with and obliterate pretty much everything that is found on a stall team.

    would love to have discussion on these two pokemon, if you need a team to test out scolipede just hit me up.
     
  16. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    y0, its scolipede!
    scolipede is very broken in the x/y uu teir because of its incredible movepool, ability, and solid attack. These factors combine make it pretty much impossible to effectively check or counter giving the variety and effectiveness of each one of its individual sets;

    Lead hazards outspeed almost all viable non-prio taunt and almost garentees two layers of hazards with speed boost. This set individually can run multiple options while almost effortlessly giving powerful team support with baton pass
    Scolipede (F) @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Speed Boost
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - TSpikes/ baton pass
    - Spikes
    - Megahorn
    - endeavor/ swords dance

    Regular SD works as an unrevengable cleaner and outspeeds the whole tier at with one boost with no speed evs (needs 16 for max crobat). With access to SD and a wide movepool scolipede can basically pick and choose its counters. There are literally no limits to this mold of scolipede and is honestly one of the most versatile and threatening mons in the tier. Scolipede has the potential to sweep with its boosted speed or boosted attack while being a good revenge killer while supporting the team by potentially passing as much speed as it wants + attack or defense or (probably even best of all) a substitute. The threat of this mon with a strong offensive presence potentially passing any of these boosts to any powerful, synergistic threat (*caugh cough* Hydreigon, which resist scolipede's every weakness sans rock and flying) make it wayyyyy to much for the tier to handle
    Scolipede (F) @ Leftovers / Focus Sash/ Life Orb
    Trait: Speed Boost
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly (+Spd, -SAtk) / Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Substitute / Swords Dance / Protect
    - Baton pass /Poison Jab
    - Megahorn
    - Earthquake / Protect/ Iron Defense

    Useful calcs:

    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Scolipede Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Filter Mega Aggron: 170-201 (49.4 - 58.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
    +2 252 Atk Scolipede Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 398-470 (110.5 - 130.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252 Atk Scolipede Megahorn vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Blastoise: 327-385 (97.6 - 114.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
    +2 252 Atk Scolipede Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 277-327 (77.5 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Scolipede Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 360-425 (100.8 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252 Atk Scolipede Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 362-428 (106.1 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Scolipede Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 237-281 (69.5 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Scolipede Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 382-452 (108.8 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Sum it up/ things to keep in mind:
    Scolipede has the option of running Stone edge over poison jab for more perfect coverage. It allows it to beat out would be checks like salemence, Aerodactyl, Crobat and ballon Arcanine/Chandelure although running baton pass is usually much more effective because the threat of +2 attack(or +2 defense) and +1 speed to anyone on your team is way too good to pass up. In my opinion the most threatening set is simply sub/bp/megahorn/eq because it combines incredible speed and powerful attacks to potentially clean late all while supporting a team of a variety of physical and special attackers flawlessly by gaining momentum and boosting. This set also specifically gives victini trouble by forcing it to break subs with vcreate and then koing with earthquake (If its carrying zenheadbutt dark types will love the free pass). I think the efficiency and flexibility that Scolipede is able to support and sweep teams makes it broken in the x/y uu tier.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2014
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  17. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    Yea Victini doesn't need a suspect. Arcanine, Slowbro, Alomomola, Swampert, fat Mence, there's a shit ton of viable counters to it right now.

    On Zygarde, personally I've literally never had it kill even one of my mons, there are a lot of viable mons that shit on it that are multipurpose and I have them on my team anyway, stopping Zygarde is just one of the things they do. Ice Beam Mew, Tangrowth, Quagsire, Pory2, Aromatisse, Swampert, stuff like that just stops it. Aromatisse does have a pretty notable niche over Florges in being able to take physical hits much better from other Dragons and stuff like Terrak or Weavile while at the same time stopping Hydreigon, personally I always use Aroma over Florges. Some of you guys argue Life Orb but LO DD is pretty rare, Lum is overall a more useful item to not get crippled by Mew, Sableye, burned by Slowbro, etc. I've used stall, semi-stall, and balanced and I've had no problems with it. I haven't used HO so I'm sure it affects HO more, but Weavile for example does around 80 with Ice Shard and doesn't get KOed by +2 Espeed from Zyg. Other users of priority aren't so lucky though, stuff like Crawdaunt and Absol don't do enough with AJ and SP so I can see how it can ravage through offense, but that's the same with DD Mence. I don't get what makes Zygarde so much more potentially broken than like DD Mence or something, DD Mence gets a lot of opportunities to set up as well especially with Intimidate..it also has really nice resistances. I'm assuming it's Zygarde's dual STAB but that doesn't really give it anything that DD Mence's coverage can't cover. Espeed is weak af too so I don't think it's that either, I mean is it just its bulk? The same walls you guys say "have some trouble" walling LO Zygarde, DD Mence completely destroys, like Mew, physdef Florges, Chesnaught, etc. If you want to argue that Zygarde can run Coil, Coil isn't even remotely a threat to any of the aforementioned walls. It needs +2 to even 2HKO Florges and like +3 to 2HKO Mew, if you let it set up that much for free then you deserve to get swept. Zygarde threatens some HO teams that don't run a Mew or Weavile or whatever, but that doesn't make it broken.

    Regarding Scolipede, agreeing fully with PSM's post. Scol was something I brought up in past suspects but it got dismissed for more immediately suspect worthy mons. Now that the amount of potentially broken stuff in UU is almost nonexistant, it's good to see Scol being brought up. Don't really have much to add to PSM's post though, it just supports teams way too well, whether being one of the best hazard stackers in the tier (mainly cuz it destroys Mew), passing SDs or Speed Boosts to teammates, or sweeping late game, which is why I think it's suspect worthy.

    Also, Shadow Tag is still retarded..Gothorita does what Gothitelle did but better, I'd like to see people discuss that more because imo it's the most broken thing right now in the tier, even if its usage is low. Not only because it's good vs stall, it's good vs almost every team..even some HO. Almost all teams I've played have at least one thing Goth can trap, Mew, Florges, Slowbro, etc, these mons are not only limited to stall..so that argument of "it's dead weight vs anything other than stall" is bullshit. This of course opens up something like a Victini (with Slowbro trapped) or Hydreigon (with Florges trapped) to rip through teams.
     
  18. Baron Corm

    Baron Corm New Member

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    Few people use bulky mence. Most of them are Scarf Moxie. Not that you would dispute it, but just for fun:

    252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 220-260 (66.4 - 78.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 213-251 (64.3 - 75.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 Atk Choice Band Victini Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 196-232 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    I was ignoring his weaknesses in an attempt to create a discussion about it and bring his strengths into light. Yes those Choice Band calcs are just barely 2HKOs, a lot of them, but if the Scarf set surprise kills something and then heavily weakens another random thing with V-Create (or double V-Create due to extra speed), it has certainly done its job.

    Arcanine is a solid counter, but Sableye is a solid counter to Mega Medicham. It's really about, is the pokemon too powerful for the tier. It is a fact that V-Create and the rest of the coverage is stronger and more versatile than Mega Medicham's. Victini needing to switch out after V-Create, and being weak to SR is obviously its biggest weakness. I just don't think it's enough, especially since Mega Blastoise is a much better spinner than the UU tier has ever seen before, and Mew gets Defog if someone wanted to go that route instead of a standard hazard setter.

    Victini's ability to run a special set is interesting, and the reason that Salamence was banned toward the end of Gen 4 when people figured it out. I haven't seen it much but the versatiliy and inability to counter Mega Medicham was a large part of the reason it was banned as well. Victini gets an even larger surprise when you expect to be able to revenge or force a switch with that speed drop, but he sets off two strong Blue Flares instead.

    Finally,

    0- SpA Victini Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 375-444 (86.4 - 102.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    0 SpA Victini Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 417-492 (96 - 113.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    0 SpA Victini Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Solid Rock Rhyperior: 180-213 (41.4 - 49%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    He can run Energy Ball or Grass Knot depending on what you're trying to do. If he has a -SpDef nature instead of -SpAtk he gets a clear advantage over Rhyperior with the prediction. The special set will obviously defeat Rhyperior and any other physical walls, as well as Florges with Life Orb V-Create on standby - I don't know what other calcs you would want for that:

    252 SpA Life Orb Victini Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 212 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Solid Rock Rhyperior: 292-347 (68.8 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    0 Atk Life Orb Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Florges: 253-298 (70.2 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Life Orb Victini Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 231-273 (57.1 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Some examples of what it can do.

    @Other guy who chimed in: Slowbro is not a counter when it is decimated by Bolt Strike. Check earlier calc.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2014
  19. somerandomguy

    somerandomguy Active Member

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    a pokemon i feel needs to be brought up is mega alakazam/alakazite. a lot of people think that normal alakazam is better than its mega simply because it can abuse magic guard + focus sash allowing it to function as a check to a lot of pokemon. however, mega zam is more of a wall breaker which makes it more threatening to balance/stall while still being able to threaten offense even without a sash due to its high speed. mega zam loses magic guard (post mega-evo) and focus sash as its forced to run alakazite. it gains 30 base speed making it reach base 150 (399 speed), allowing it to outspeed anything in the tier that isn't scarfed (or speed boost + protect). it gains 40 base spatk giving it an absurd base 175 spatk (493 spatk). lastly it gains 20 base defense making it reach base 65, which may sound meaningless as 55/65 bulk is still bad, however it does allow mega zam to take priority hits better, notably crawdaunt's cb aqua jet which doesn't ohko at 100%. it also gets the ability trace isn't providing any use most of the time, only useful against certain pokemon, notably thundurus-t which gives you volt absorb which provides an immunity to electric which is nice. it also helps vs other things like sheer force nidoking, analytic magnezone, adaptability crawdaunt, etc. the first that comes to mind when using mega zam is that its no longer outsped by weavile, which is great as it can only go for ice shard doing around 50%-55%. and its disadvantage is that its revenge killed by any scarfer faster than chandelure as it can't use a sash. lets get onto the set it runs:

    Alakazam (M) @ Alakazite
    Trait: Magic Guard
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Psychic
    - Shadow Ball
    - Dazzling Gleam / Focus Blast
    - Calm Mind

    this is mega zam's best set, you don't really see anything else, just encore over calm mind. psychic is obviously its stab attack, which is almost always used over psyshock as it can hits things harder such as blastoise, zygarde, defensive mence/arcanine etc. psyshock hits a few things harder than psychic such as florges/snorlax/machamp/goodra, however snorlax and goodra aren't so common, and alakazam deals a lot of damage to machamp w/ psychic and sets up calm mind vs florges and goodra, and focus blast hits snorlax so psychic is generally a better option over psyshock. shadow ball is an important coverage move to hit mainly psychic types and chandelure, can also deal a good amount of damage to magnezone if its lacking focus blast. dazzling gleam hits dark types like weavile/crawdaunt/hydreigon/sableye, while focus blast also hits them (barring sableye), it also hits steel types like magnezone/mega aggron/empoleon. however from my experience, dazzling gleam seems to be the better option (if you have a fighting/fire/ground type) as you're not taking the risk whenever you want to take out a dark type. calm mind is used mainly to prevent florges from walling you, psychic is a guaranteed 2hko after 1 cm which is nice. encore can be used to stop crocune from doing anything, also helpful vs other things that like to set use stealth rock/substitute/defog/recovery etc. time to post some calcs to demonstrate its power/bulk (left out the obvious ones):

    standard florges:
    0 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Alakazam: 79-94 (31.3 - 37.3%) -- 83.5% chance to 3HKO

    +1 252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Florges: 208-246 (57.7 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    standard mega blastoise:
    252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Mega Blastoise: 180-213 (52.1 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    standard slowbro
    252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 288-340 (73 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    crocune:
    252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 180-213 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (can set up cm)

    spdef mew:
    252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 174-206 (43 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (mew loses 1v1 even if it has knock off as zam can take 1 and get off a cm and finish it w/ the next shadow ball)

    dragon dance zygarde:
    252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 211-249 (54.5 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    phydef mence:
    252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 244-288 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    av escavalier
    252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Escavalier: 115-136 (33.4 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    coil zygarde:
    252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 188 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 151-178 (37.3 - 44%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Dazzling Gleam vs. 188 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 180-212 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    weavile:
    252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 274-324 (97.5 - 115.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

    banded crawdaunt:
    252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Alakazam: 192-228 (76.1 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    specs magnezone:
    252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 131-155 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

    spdef mega aggron:
    252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 223-264 (64.8 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    spdef umbreon:
    252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 216-256 (54.8 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    av snorlax:
    252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 222-262 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

    spdef jirachi:
    252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 174-206 (43 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (very uncommon, jirachi loses unless it has u-turn as mega zam can finish it after 1 cm)

    as the calcs have shown, mega zam can 2hko almost the whole tier, and zam can set up at least 1 cm against anything that isn't. only exceptions are coil zygarde and av snorlax, zygarde can kill zam with 2 earthquakes (has a chance with earthquake + espeed) while still surviving 2 psychics/dazzling gleams if its at full health, and snorlax can take 1 focus blast and can ohko with return/crunch however both cannot many hits as they both don't have reliable recovery. the only solid counter in the tier is av escavalier as it can take any hit easily and trap it with pursuit, however esca doesn't counter much else which is why it has low usage, it only checks a couple of mons. spdef mega aggron / empoleon / umbreon and snorlax are counters if mega zam lacks focus blast.

    mega zam appreciates teammates who can deal with scarfers/steel types. banded weavile works well as it can check common scarfers like victini/salamence/hydreigon/staraptor and can also trap victini with pursuit (also can others with prediction). fighting types such as banded terrakion deal with steels/umbreon/snorlax well so they form good synergy with mega zam. so yea i feel that mega zam is a potential suspect, and id like to hear other people's opinion on this.
     
  20. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    Can we get a suspect so this thread doesn't keep dying, I think the most agreeable one would be Scolipede but a dual suspect of Scol+MegaZam (cuz it looks like a good amount of people want it suspected) would be good.

    Also agreeing on MegaZam after trying out a lot more teams, I've been trying to use balanced a lot more and what puts Zam over the top for me is its speed. Base 150 is really insane, it can just run Modest and still outspeed stuff like Weavile. Most priority can't kill it, Ice Shards, Bullet Punches and Aqua Jets at best will be doing half. Absol can Sucker it but it's going to be CM Sucker games which is annoying. As far as counters, the only hard counter I can think of would be like AV Escav but that isn't used as much. Umbreon can't OHKO with Foul Play and gets wrecked by Focus Blast, 2HKOes without boosts. My S tier spdef Milo can Haze/Toxic stall it if it has Psychic but Psyshock decimates it :[
    Things like Florges and Mew are just set up bait.
    So yea, a dual suspect of those two would be cool.

    Oh and please no one use the switching in argument (especially if it's your only argument) because it applies to almost everything offensive and is extremely vague in general..Deo-S had trouble switching in, doesn't mean it wasn't broken.
     
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  21. Enei

    Enei WAFSTB

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    Completely agree with the above post, imo a both are deserving of a suspect in the current metagame.

    Just voicing my opinion, if more facts / details are needed I can always add those in later.
     
  22. Baron Corm

    Baron Corm New Member

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    Suspect of Mega Alakazam to me is ridiculous as regular Alakazam is almost strictly better.

    Regular Alakazam deals more damage straight out (with Life Orb) or over time (getting 2 hits in with Focus Sash instead of 1). Anyone complaining about the wallbreaking power of the Mega is just totally off.

    Mega Alakazam gets an unnecessary speed boost when the regular one is already the fastest guy in 99% of games. Also, the speed boost doesn't apply the first turn it's out, and it doesn't commonly run Fake Out, Protect, or anything else to remedy this, so good luck using it as a revenge killer against a Scarfer.

    Finally, Trace is also best used as a switch in ability, to counter a Scald from Jellicent, or an Intimidate from Salamence, or what have you. Mega Alakazam cannot do this, it has to transform first. There is also a good chance that Trace will be totally useless, as you aren't guaranteed that your opponent carries such a pokemon.

    All this is totally ignoring the fact that it takes a Mega slot, and you can't use Mega Blastoise alongside it, which is another huge tick against it. It is much worse than regular Alakazam even ignoring this fact.

    252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 231-274 (35.9 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 217-256 (33.8 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
     
  23. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psyshock vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 149-177 (41.6 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psyshock vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 154-183 (43 - 51.1%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO

    every mega alakazam should be modest since it outruns pretty much everything with a modest nature and a timid nature isn't needed anyway.

    going to proprose that the UUTLs start making decisions and quickbanning stuff because if we do take 2 week long suspect discussions + ladder votes, we can only get to maximum 2 pokemon to be banned and won't have time to test out the metagame before ORAS arrives. If stuff is quickbanned, the community can have more time to enjoy the xy uu metagame before ORAS is released and I think the quickbans would be much more beneficial and the metagame would settle down faster and be ready for ORAS. It's your call but this is simply just a suggestion since UU is rather stale atm and a lot of broken stuff is starting to surface and it would be better to ban the broken elements in the tier instead of waiting and procrastinating.
     
  24. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    Mr Snake
    I'd honestly be more willing for just a plain Alakazam suspect. Magic Guard Zam is one hell of a scary poke as is, and mega Zam is just the same thing with more speed and more immediate power (than the sash set at least).

    With a life orb it is a better Wallbreaker than its mega form thanks to more power, a solid enough special defense to withstand neutral special attacks from most walls like Florges, the ability Magic Guard completely wrecking all attempts to burn, poison, or hazard it to death, and it's perfect coverage with 3 moves allowing it to use situational assisting moves like encore or CM. Its lower speed (which is still blistering fast) is almost negligible when taking into consideration how slow most walls are and how it gets the first strike on all but the best-predicted switch-ins. It also is far more than a Wallbreaker, since it can still outpace a very large portion of the metagame even when modest and it is able to do serious damage as a revenge killer.

    Speaking of which, the sashed version may be one of the best special attacking revenge killers in the game. It is unable to be OHKO'd by anything other than a skill link abuser and can almost always get in at least one hit from it's amazing 135 base special attack (that can hit both sides thanks to Psyshock). This, combined with its perfect coverage and the ability to outspeed almost all of the unboosted tier, makes it extremely difficult to be able to prevent it from getting a kill once it comes in.

    With all of this, I would say another huge problem with Zam is that the already shaky checks to a lot of its sets get annihilated by the others. The pokemon that can wall the sash set can't take on life orb or mega, and the pokemon that can revenge those two have trouble with the sash set. Not to mention that its list of checks and counters changes depending on whether that 4th move is some random and specific coverage move like HP Fire or Energy Ball, Encore, Calm Mind, Recover, or Sub.

    All in all I would say a Megazam suspect isn't needed when it could very well be that normal Zam is broken enough to warrant a ban.
     
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  25. JeyTheGrey

    JeyTheGrey PWRFL!! YOU NEED A REVIVE!

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    OK, I don't quite know, where to start. So let's start off with Barom Corms post:
    1.) Regular Alakazam does NOT deal more damage, because there is no need to run timid nature, with 150 base speed (see DracoNinjas post for calcs). Also, MegaZam gets a defense boost, which makes it able to survive some physical Priority, that it would have died to otherwise.
    E.g.
    252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 246-290 (97.6 - 115%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Alakazam: 187-221 (74.2 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 254-300 (100.7 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Alakazam: 192-228 (76.1 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    Alakazam in his megaform therefore is "bulkier" to an extend and does not really need the focus sash anymore, to get off 2 hits AND hit harder than Life Orb variants.

    2.) You can't just assume that it carries both Life Orb and Focus Sash at the same time. Sure, the damage output is increased with LO, but then it can not get off 2 hits for sure. If you put Focus sash on it, the damage output is decreased, making it muchmuch less powerful as MegaZam. You have to differentiate first between the viable sets.

    3.) IDK where you got the statement "Finally, Trace is also best used as a switch in ability" from. We know that Alakazam is pretty frail, therefore it would be a bad idea to switch it into any attack. Trace helps you in a lot of situations. It helps you Mega evolving for free on a Chandelure locked into fire blast, it is a very good switch-in to Thundurus-T, as it can take almost all the hits it has to offer. You can Mega evolve on a Nidoking /-queen, outspeed and trace its Sheer Force, boosting Alakazams attacks even more.
    All you gotta do is to make sure you mega evolve first, to use Trace as a "switch in ability" as you so call it. Since you stated that it outruns "99% of all pokes in UU", that doesn't look to be that hard of a task to accomplish.

    4.) Alakazam doesn't get an unecessairy speed boost at all. It can outrun (even with modest nature) Weavile, which could otherwise pursuittrap (and kill) it.

    5.) Not sure how to respond to this: "All this is totally ignoring the fact that it takes a Mega slot, and you can't use Mega Blastoise alongside it, which is another huge tick against it. It is much worse than regular Alakazam even ignoring this fact." Every Mega uses a Megaslot, obviously. You assume, that everybody uses Mega Blastoise as their Mega, which is totally untrue. MegaZam and MegaBlast both have its own utility and usage in a specific team, and can't be compared like that. You can also run a defogger alongside Mega Alakazam, or Forretress as a viable spinner in the Tier. It's like saying "Forretress spins and gets up rocks, while Blastoise can spin but can't set up Stealth Rocks. Therefore, Forretress is superior to Blastoise and saves you a Megaslot". You can't compare the 2 Pokes like that, because they serve a specific / different role in every team.

    Going on with OUAzumarils post:
    1.) As stated, LO variant does NOT hit harder than MegaZam. Again, you do the same mistake as Barom Corm. Either it runs LO or it runs Focus Sash. Pick one and not both to back up your arguement. Just saying, Alakazam doesn't have enough special defense to withstand Florges' Moonblast (as you said in your post). It can't switch in on a Moonblast because it has a good chance of even getting 2 hit KO'd.
    0 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Alakazam: 118-139 (46.8 - 55.1%) -- 67.2% chance to 2HKO

    On top of that, it is not guaranteed to 2 hit KO Florges back, unless it runs Calm Mind, especially because Florges usually runs protect to gain Leftovers recovery.
    252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 161-191 (44.7 - 53%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    2.) Again: Sash and LO are 2 Items... while it runs sash, it doesn't hit hard enough to kill pokes and with LO it gets revenged easily (especially with Weavile).
    252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 304-359 (120.6 - 142.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (and that's the damage without Alakazam switching out)
    Seeing as Scarfed Victini is in this tier, which is a good offensive pivit switch for Alakazam, it's not guaranteed to get a kill at all. Zygarde (Coil or DD) takes a hit or 2 from Sashed variants and revenges, Blastoise takes 2 hits, Florges takes it on, Priority is a thing... There are a lot more, which i'm not going to discuss in depth.

    Overall, i think the problem is MegaZam, not Alakazam in general. I do agree that it can be scary sometimes but it can be handled pretty easily in regular Form, while it poses a much bigger problem in Megaform and it can't get revengekilled that easily anymore. Don't get me wrong, there are still checks to MegaZam, but there are way less viable checks than there are for the regular form Alakazam.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2014
    Finchinator likes this.
  26. bugzinator

    bugzinator Well-Known Member

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    Mega Alakazam:
    It lacks switch ins; insane special attack + great coverage is enough to 2hko most of the tier, some calcs have already been posted but Snorlax + Umbreon are both 2hkod by Focus Blast while Florges takes 40% switching in and then Alakazam sets up with Calm Mind and beats it. Stall has an incredibly tough time as Alakazam can beat the main special walls, while having more chances than usual to boost it's special attack. Offense usually just flat out lacks switches, I'm also not a big fan of the scarf Victini pivoting argument as rocks need to be off for this to work and it still takes 70%+ from shadow ball, that goes for most scarfers trying to play around it as Alakazam has the coverage to hit just about anything.
    Outspeeds most of the tier; this makes it almost impossible to play around. With some powerful attackers such as Crawdaunt you can normally play around a little by switching into resisted attacks and forcing them out, but with Alakazam there is no way you can do this, it has good enough coverage to hit most of the tier and the only pokemon which outspeed are scarfed, so it instantly poses a threat and if you lose your scarfer it's probably faster than the rest of your team.
    Also a quick mention to trace ability, giving it more chances to switch in and sometimes trace abilities like speed boost, sheer force and adaptability which just make it ridiculous. Supporting a Mega Alakazam suspect.

    Regular Alakazam:
    While it's true regular benefits from sash + magic guard, without the attack boost of LO or Mega it's not nearly as much of a threat and can't get the key 2hkos, this set is normally better for revenge killing but definitely not broken.
    LO Alakazam is also a threat no doubt, but ultimately misses out on the key tools which push Mega over the edge being: Trace ability, the extra speed which is crucial to outspeed pokemon like Weavile, a little extra special attack and also misses a little extra bulk which helps it live some important priority attacks. Not supporting a regular Alakazam suspect.

    Zygarde:
    Runs multiple sets with a few differing goals, I believe the main one seen is Bulky DD, but it can also choose from Band, Special Def + Coil, more speed or even Life Orb.
    Here is the main set I've been running and would like to discuss:
    Zygarde @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Aura Break
    EVs: 232 HP / 252 Atk / 24 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Dragon Dance
    - Earthquake
    - Outrage
    - Extreme Speed

    First of all; with that speed you're outspeeding Terrakions and anything below at + 1.
    The main draw to this set is how well it sets up against any kind of team (particularly offense) and can often pull a sweep with one or two pokemon weakened. Here are some pokemon it sets up on and ohkos the next turn:
    Terrakion, Crawdaunt(band does 80% but Zygarde still gets the boost it needs) Victini, Alakazam, Darmanitan, Lucario(With no Ice Punch), Staraptor, Thundurus-T, Magnezone, Chandelure, Klefki, Heracross, Arcanine, Empoleon, Crobat, Houndoom and Roserade.
    I won't go over the top with this but a couple of calcs to prove my point.
    252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 166-196 (40 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 216-255 (52 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 225-265 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 292-345 (70.3 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 296-352 (71.3 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    As you can clearly see Zygarde gets a ridiculous amount of chances to set up and start doing damage with almost unresisted Dragon/Ground coverage and Priority. I don't know of any other pokemon that can set up on so many offensive threats and then proceed to outspeed and OHKO them the next turn.

    Now lets look at counters, it does have some but not a whole lot:
    Slowbro(Needs Ice beam), Mew(Needs Ice Beam), Quagsire, Tangrowth, Whimsicott and possibly a few others which aren't seen too often.
    There's also a few pokemon that do a decent job of checking it but aren't too reliable such as:
    Physical Def Mega Toise, Swampert and Chesnaught(Which lose to Sub Coil)
    If you look at these pokemon, I'd say only Mew, Swampert and Mega Blastoise are often seen on offensive teams and only Mew has reliable recovery to be considered a solid Zygarde counter.
    Also no I'm not even going to bother listing Florges as it only really wins 1v1, here's how it switches in on DD:
    +1 252+ Atk Zygarde Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 232 Def Florges: 229-271 (63.6 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    0 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 236-278 (56.8 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    To sum up; Zygarde has amazing Bulk + Coverage + Priority and a respectable attack stat (with adamant nature) which is pretty much everything you want in a sweeper. It gets chances to set up on much of the tier, and while it does have it's share of counters and checks, most of them generally don't fit too well onto offensive teams, this really restricts options when it comes to team building as in many instances you'll be forced to lose a lot of offensive momentum in order to run something like a Slowbro, to ensure Zygarde doesn't sweep you.
    Supporting a Zygarde suspect.

    will probably be posting on scoli and hydregion sometime soon so keep ur eyes peeled 6_66 #hiddenilluminatisymbols
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2014
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