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September + October XY NU Tier/Potential Suspects Discussion

Discussion in 'Gen 6 NU' started by Afro Smash, Sep 1, 2014.

  1. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    XY LU->XY NU
    Ditto
    Goodra
    Granbull
    Milotic
    Noivern
    Rotom-C
    Rotom-H

    XY NU->XY UU
    Chesnaught

    XY NU->XY LU
    Aromatisee
    Banette
    Shuckle

    Looks like a very interesting cycle is coming our way. Probably the most notable of the drops are the 2 strong Special Attacking dragons Goodra and Noivern, with Goodra packing great coverage and insane Sp Def and Noivern being able to outpace virtually everything in the tier. This happens to coincide with Aromatisse rising up, one of the best Special Walls and Dragon Counters in the tier.

    We also gained 2 very powerful Rotom formes, Rotom-C's dual STAB leaves Ground types hoping to block Volt Switch running, and is also a fantastic Water type Check. Rotom-H also has incredible coverage with dual STAB and HP Grass, and has an amazing defensive typing allowing it to run defensive sets with Will o Wisp to great effect. Both are obviously incredibly effective choice users with access to Volt Switch and Trick.

    With Banette leaving we lost a very powerful opkemon and NU's only Mega, and we also lost our best Sticky Web setter in Shuckle, so Smeargle will likely see a rise in usage.

    Oh and RIP Chesnaught.

    Have fun discussing these new drops and the impact they may have in the tier, but remember to stay away from theorymoning!
     
  2. Galblade

    Galblade FAT PRINCESS

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    Been using Goodra and this thing is waaay too good at taking special attacks and then hitting hard back with either special or physical attacks. Paired with Vaporeon or other wishers, this thing is unkillable almost on the special side. Obviously requiring more use first before I say for certain but I'm leaning towards wanting a suspect discussion tbh.
     
  3. AmourShipper

    AmourShipper meh i'm bored

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    Poor poor Goodra...the first and only pseudo-legendary Pokemon to go as low as NU. Kinda sad especially since it's not even half bad in OU. That said I think it will be a dominant force in the tier. It takes special hits like an absolute champion and has a wide offensive movepool with good offensive stats to back it up. It also has a lovely Dragon typing to back up its bulk, and with Assault Vest it will be the ultimate special tank in the tier. I wouldn't be surprised at all if this thing get suspected and even banned from NU.

    Noivern is also kind of funny to see in NU. It'll be pretty good though, it has a sick speed tier and it's decently powerful, so I'd expect it to do pretty well down in NU.

    Both Rotoms will be pretty good, being able to spam Volt Switch, and Overheat/Leaf Storm to hit hard. They should be decently annoying Pokemon to face overall. They have good coverage in their STABs too.

    Other than that, the rises aren't too surprising. They are huge losses, but Chesnaught is honestly excellent in UU and it deserves to be there (Idk why it didn't see the usage it deserved a while ago??). Aromatisse is the best Fairy in LU and a very good cleric, Shuckle has a very good niche, and Banette is an annoying Pokemon that can also spinblock. Losing a spinblocker and a Webs setter definitely are big losses, but eh. Without Aroma though, and Goodra and Noivern joining, I guess it's time to spam Slurpuff.
     
  4. topah

    topah Active Member

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    I'm going to miss you aroma-chan, especially with 2 strong sp attack dragons comming :c
    Milotic is coming back so its nice to have another potential thing to help against defog (if competetive)
    and we finally get Ditto which might help against all this Stored Power Xatu

    also we still have wobbuffet \o/
     
  5. Locket Rauncher

    Locket Rauncher New Member

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    Yes goodra is coming down, but at least we get granbull too. Another fairy type for the tier is good, right?

    Max attack granbull can solidly OHKO, and standard goodra sets can't OHKO back.

    Granbull gets intimidate too so I guess you could run it tanky. 90/75/60 isn't... horrible...

    Specs noivern is a different story. I'm not happy to see boomburst back down here again, especially on a pokemon that can use it just as effectively as exploud.
     
  6. Galblade

    Galblade FAT PRINCESS

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    Chatot's been around and was a damn good replacement on sticky web teams. Though Sticky Web is really nerfed now, without having a reliable setter that also has SR besides frail ole Smeargle its easy removed.
     
  7. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    A pseudo legendary in NU...this'll be interesting. It's either going to be a top tier threat or just plain broken.
     
  8. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Noivern is barely even good. That shit doesn't hit hard enough. Even with specs. Its Boomburst is non-scrappy and non-STAB, it's literally incomparable to Exploud. It's also weak to rocks. Neat speed tier though.
    252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 214-253 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 154-182 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 244-288 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    Weaker and it loses attack from its only good STAB.

    Goodra I'm not sure about, it's good but it hasn't been over performing yet imo, maybe because everyone's running things like SpDef Milotic atm to prepare for it, but idk, seems easy enough to play around.

    Milotic might be a little too fat. Specs Magneton doesn't OHKO it :[
     
  9. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    I've been trying Super Fang Noivern, its pretty cool :] Super Fang+a follow up Draco Meteor+LO KOs pretty much every special wall with a layer of SR up. U-turn Noivern to Wobuffet also pretty much eradicates any steel/ice type/fairiesand this gives Noivern a lot of free room to spam Dmeteors or slowly weaken the opp with super fang. Glad that cancerous banette is finally gone, that shit was cancerous.
     
  10. Trakyan

    Trakyan Member

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    Ariados was better anyway.

    That aside, sorta looking foreward to granbul, if only he had a 100 acc stab... otherwise this tier is looking less and less like the NU of generations past.
    Where do we go to find NEU this gen?
     
  11. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Ok now that people have had a chance to play with the new drops and experience the new meta, there are 4 potential suspects we want discussion on.

    Druddigon:
    Life Orb Sheer Force sets are exceedingly hard to wall, having great coverage, priority and enormous power in one set. Drudd also possesses good bulk that allows it to almost always live a at least one hit, making it win in most 1 on 1 situations with offensive pokemon, and can 2hko the vast majority of NUs Walls. CB sets are also very strong, and open up the option of running Mold Breaker to circumvent Levitate users like Bronzong and OHKO Stealth Rock leads, however are a lot more prediction based in a meta with Hippo/Steels/Granbull.

    Milotic:
    Quite simply with Milotic is the incredible walling capabilities, incredibly high Special Defense and Marvel Scale for boosting Defense combined with Rest Talk sets make Milotic exceedingly hard to break, it also packs a decently powerful Scald to punish switch ins. Offensive sets with competitive are also viable not only for their surprise factor but Milotics natural uninvested bulk and surprising power with a Life Orb.

    Goodra:
    This will mostly focus on the Specs sets since AV isn't difficult to Wall. Specs Goodra on the other is very hard to wall in this NU meta. Specs Draco Meteors deal humungous damage to mostly everything in the tier, the only resists, being Fairy and Steel types get decimated by Sudge Bomb and Fire Blast respectively, though frankly Granbull and Slurpuff can't really stand up to Specs Fire Blast anyway. Only 2 Special Walls in the tier can live 2 Draco Meteors really, and they're Milotic and Lickilicky, and both have the chance to lose to Thunderbolt and Focus Blast respectively. On top of this Goodra hits a good speed tier for an NU wallbreaker and has that naturally immense Special Defense + Dragon typng to find many opportunities to come in during a match.

    Porygon-Z:
    Porygon-Z is not only incredibly powerful, but also very versatile. It boasts 125 Sp Atk and a good speed tier at 90, combined with Adaptability Tri Attacks and perfect Normal/Dark coverage, all this considered its easy to see why PZ is currently the most used pokemon in NU. Versatiity wise Porygon-Z can run a myriad of sets, from Choice Scarf/Choice Specs/Agility/Nasty Plot/Double Dance with the option for bolt beam coverage and Trick. The initial scouting of Porygon-Z is very very difficult, since stayig in could mean sacrificing a key mon, but giving a Porygon-Z a free turn as you switch out can allow it to set up an agility or nasty plot and shred through Offensive and Defensive teams respectively. (probably the most likely candidate at this point)

    Discussion on all 4 will be appreciated, remember to base opinions off of experience in the meta as opposed to theorymon, though try to stay away from anecdotal evidence as the basis for your arguments e.g. 'I beat Goodra once with Patrat therefore not broken'.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2014
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  12. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Druddigon
    I think Druddigon is a borderline mon personally. But if I had to choose I'd probably say it doesn't need the suspect atm. I don't think it's as prediction heavy as you might make out, the CB sets simply have to click Outrage if your opponent isn't packing a Granbull. Bronzong doesn't want to take Outrages since it lacks recovery and can only really Toxic back since Gyro Ball is weak vs Druddi. Steelix takes them better but still isn't a big fan. Its speed is a hindrance though. The thing that makes me not think it needs a suspect over any of the mon below at the moment is that it needs to pick its moments well. It can often find itself unable to come in for risk of losing too much health and being unable to do damage due to its low speed. This is not such a problem vs stall, but in the offensive metagame we currently have I think it's noticeable.

    Milotic
    It's stupidly fat and respectably strong. It has 2 good abilities and an ample movepool. Simply put it's a top-class Pokémon. You need some fiercely strong pokemon to break through a wall Milotic on its invested defense, Modest specs PZ is barely 2KOing with Rocks and Tri Attack on a special defensive Milotic. It feels weird to argue that a defensive set is broken because it feels like all you can really do is say "holy shit look what it survives what a fucking god", and it's not something we get to practice often. But really what I see it coming down to is that Milotic is just not breakable without either a Taunt, a decent super effective STAB or an attacker in the leagues of PZ and Druddigon and you cannot use it as setup fodder because it's not an offensive pushover.

    Goodra
    AV sets are underwhelming, although they're still a big problem for offensive teams that rely too much on special attackers. But for balance and well-made offensive teams it's not so much of an issue. Specs doesn't get walled, Life Orb can also perform really well to allow it to not have to try and fire off that Sludge predicting the Granbull or that Fire predicting the Zong. Gooey and Sap Sipper can both be disruptive to an opposing team, if only a minor point in Goodra's overall catalog. It has all the coverage moves it could ever want too. Goodra's combination of disgusting special bulk and painful offensive presence makes it too much for NU imo.

    P-Z
    Pory-Z is cool, I like it a lot. Double Dance allows you to take on stall and offense incredibly well with the same Pokémon just by clicking the other boosting move. Choiced sets are both really effective in their respective roles. It has every special move you will ever need. It has one of the best abilities it could ask for that even lets it go mixed if you're not a fan of Goodra or special defensive Milotic. Its speed tier isn't exactly good but it's fast enough for a lot of its potential needs. It can bluff choice really effectively with Silk Scarf or even Lum Berry if you're feeling adventurous (I'm not). Pory-Z is probably the most bannable on this list due to its extraordinary power, myriad of different sets and all round lack of anything that comes close to being a check. (Sorry Proof :[ I'd be sad to see it go too)
     
  13. Nicehat

    Nicehat PO client damage calc: preview.tinyurl.com/o8e7hss

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    I think Vaporeon is a better Pokemon than Milotic. Milotic does gain an extra moveslot with Protect, which makes it more versatile (can run two out of Ice Beam, Dragon Tail and Toxic), but Vaporeon is simply more effective even with a constrained moveset. Access to Wish and possibly Heal Bell give it far superior team supporting abilities and Protect is actually a very good move by its own merits when facing choiced wallbreakers like Sawk and Goodra or Toxic Orb users like Zangoose. Roar is also a superior phazing move compared to Dragon Tail as it bypasses Substitute and Protect.

    Basically if a bulky water has to get suspected I'd rather see Vaporeon get suspected than Milotic.
     
  14. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Milotic has offensive presence that Vaporeon lacks and its ability to gain big defense when using rest is really neat. Wishes and Heal Bell are helpful team support that are somewhat rare in NU now that Aroma is gone. However Wish healing has its downsides, namely that you're not able to heal against anything with a Phasing move. But that's not such a big deal.
    Roar is superior to Dragon Tail, yes, but you have to sacrifice Scald or Heal Bell to use it. Also Haze Milotic is better anyway :^]

    Milotic has slightly superior special bulk and almost identical physical bulk, which is then made superior by the ability to use Rest and become 50% bulkier.
    Although that said, I think the ability to spread wishes is something that may make Vaporeon more worth a suspect than Milotic. While its bulk is lesser to Milotic's, wish support and protect healing can all make stall really difficult to deal with. Which I think may be more apparent if my personal go-to wallbreaker of PZ is banned. It's something worth considering.
     
  15. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    Vaporeon actually has 110 base SpAtk to Milotic's 100 and gets pretty much the same offensive moves. Vappy can also absorb Scalds and not be crippled by burn unlike Milotic. Overall Vaporeon does the job as bulky water just as good as Milotic but provides team support on top of that with Wish and Heal Bell.
     
  16. Arceus_17

    Arceus_17 Avoid eye contact

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    Actually Vaporeon has more Special Attack than Milotic (110 > 100). While it's true that Milotic has an interesting ability in Competitive , it's use is very situational. It also means you're giving up one of Milotic's main perks over Vaporeon - Marvel Scale.

    Couldn't agree more.

    Vaporeon also learns Haze :D Although, like you said. it is a difficult task to find a space for that move, having to sacrifice either Protect or Heal Bell (or even Scald)

    True. However the difference is neglectable.

    252 SpA Life Orb Raichu Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vaporeon: 221-265 (47.6 - 57.1%) -- 35.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Life Orb Raichu Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Milotic: 187-221 (47.4 - 56%) -- 23.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    As you may note, Specially Defensive Milotic appears to be a fantastic user of Mirror Coat, a particular nasty surprise for a electric/grass type.
     
  17. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Vaporeon does indeed have a stronger base Scald. But Vaporeon simply doesn't go offensive due to the nature of its healing and its bad speed tier. Milotic can run a competent LO set, which is indeed supplemented by Competitive. Milotic has the offensive function that Vaporeon just doesn't. However I did word that poorly.

    Haze and Roar are comparably decent, although I like Haze more. But the point was that Dtail Milotic is ass.

    The point is that I'm not wanting people to assume that Vaporeon is fatter, because until I calced it all out, I did.
     
  18. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    This is a double post. But it's been like a week so w/e.

    Wondering what people think of Stoutland or Hippo as a potential suspect after the current lot. Obviously the meta will be a little different but at present sand offense (Double Rush or just Stoutsand) seems like a really effective team style. Personally I think it's at least worth discussing.
     
  19. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    I do think that Stoutland could do with a suspect. 110 Attack combined with not-so-terrible STAB and coverage options is extremely powerful when you're essentially non-revengekill-able and completely capable of running an Adamant nature (essentially gives Stoutland the power of Jolly Heracross). Stoutland also has a considerable amount of bulk (85/90/90 is pretty great for an offensive Pokemon in NU) to stop most priority from really stopping a sweep.

    Obviously, Stoutland requires some form of Sand Support to get so fast, but Hippowdon is very easy to fit into essentially every team style (from stall to all but the heaviest of offenses) and is by itself a great pokemon. So that isn't really that much of a hindrance. I think Stoutland's biggest problem is the not-so-small number of dedicated physical walls that can tank an attack or two. Things like Weezing, Hippowdon, Steelix, etc can take at least one attack from the LO set. The band set has other problems with prediction but does remove a number of these checks, like Seimitoad.

    Stout's typing is a double edged sword, since it's STAB has no real coverage, but has decent neutral coverage otherwise and thanks to the buff to Crunch, has pretty perfect coverage with just two moves (and actual perfect coverage with three a la superpower). It doesn't offer any useful resistances (yay ghost immunity), but doesn't have many major weaknesses, just fighting, which is semi-common.



    Defensive Calcs:
    252+ Atk Iron Fist Hitmonchan Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stoutland: 164-194 (52.7 - 62.3%)
    252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stoutland: 87-105 (27.9 - 33.7%)
    252+ Atk Technician Hitmontop Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stoutland: 63-75 (20.2 - 24.1%)
    252+ Atk Technician Hitmontop Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stoutland: 188-224 (60.4 - 72%)
    252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stoutland: 148-175 (47.5 - 56.2%)

    Offensive Calcs:
    252+ Atk Life Orb Stoutland Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 177-211 (44.9 - 53.5%) - Guaranteed 2HKO with SR and Sandstorm
    252+ Atk Life Orb Stoutland Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 208-246 (44.9 - 53.1%) - Guaranteed 2HKO with SR and Sandstorm
    252+ Atk Life Orb Stoutland Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Hippowdon: 183-216 (43.5 - 51.4%)
    252+ Atk Life Orb Stoutland Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 136-161 (32.3 - 38.3%)
    252+ Atk Life Orb Stoutland Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 129-152 (36.5 - 43%) - Guaranteed 2HKO with SR and Sandstorm
    252+ Atk Life Orb Stoutland Return vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Vileplume: 175-207 (49.4 - 58.4%) - Guaranteed 2HKO with SR
    252+ Atk Life Orb Stoutland Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 200-237 (49.6 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO with SR
    252+ Atk Life Orb Stoutland Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 183-216 (44.2 - 52.1%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Life Orb Stoutland Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 134-160 (40.1 - 47.9%) -- 51.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Black Sludge recovery
    252+ Atk Life Orb Stoutland Crunch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Golurk: 268-317 (70.3 - 83.2%)
    252+ Atk Life Orb Stoutland Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix: 146-172 (41.2 - 48.5%)
    252+ Atk Life Orb Stoutland Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusknoir: 133-156 (45.2 - 53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery
    -1 252+ Atk Life Orb Stoutland Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 122-146 (31.7 - 38%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery
    [/spoilers]
     
  20. Trakyan

    Trakyan Member

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    Well I've already spoken my mind before about drudd, i'll have a go at the others.

    Milotic
    Not that often do things get banned for being too good a wall... And yeah, milotic is good, and no, i'll have to disagree that vaporeon is better, or even a match.
    What does milotic have? Well, for starters it has instant recovery in recover, rather than two turn, two moveslot recovery of wish (sometimes you just really need the recovery on that same turn, like if you're low on HP and about to be KOed)
    That opens up a crucial moveslot, letting you run the likes of toxic, dragon tail, haze, ice beam which makes milotic much more versatile and able to respond to a few more checks/counters/mons than vappy can.
    In any case, milotic has the all important speed factor. Whereas vappy is the sort of middle ground of NU, not among the base 50s, but not as fast as or faster than base 70s, milotic outspeeds them all and with no investment. This lets it come in much more safely to take hits and then recovery, especially at low health where vaporeon would risk being 2HKOed on the switch.

    However, I wouldn't call it broken as it lacks somewhat on the physically defensive side with marvel scale not in effect, because of which the likes of sawk, hariyama, druddigon, stoutland can all break through it, the likes of sub LO sceptile can also take advantage of milotic if it doesnt run ice beam. Vileplume, ferroseed, lapras etc can all handle and take advantage of milotic rather well.

    I'll say its good, but not broken

    Stoutland/Hippo
    Honestly I think these two are more broken individually than as a pair.
    Hippowdon itself is a solid physical bastion, rock setter and phazer. It doesn't nessecarily need to be in a sand team to support stoutland to be good, or to be used as a sand setter at all. It's merits are well known, so I'll stop that there.

    Personally I think stoutland's best set is the CB retaliate set with scrappy which lets it hit hard and punish KOes. With sand no longer being permanent this gen it's role as a hit and runner with CB for sand teams is somewhat compromised as you have limited sand turns and need to make use of them, hit and run just isn't as effective. In terms of LO or work up to try and sweep, I just don't think its feasable or effective (missing too many OHKOs, wearing itself out, being prone to revenge kills and lolworkup). There are too many ghost and steel or rock types for the sand rush version to be a top tier threat, as ghosts wall it very well, with the except of crunch I guess which can be played around, and rock or steel types feel the same way except with superpower (plus with some rock or steel types being neutral to super power, they handle it just fine anyway). However, the scrappy set does away with its ghost type counters and leaves just things like armaldo and bronzong which can comfortably take any of its hits, however they can both be brought down as they have no recovery, armaldo is weak to rocks and bronzong doesn't pose any offensive threat so stoutland doesnt mind taking a few turns to KO him with something like fire fang.

    Maybe last gen, then it would have been broken, i guess. Right now I think hippo is just an excellent wall and stoutland is just an excellent hard hitter.
     
  21. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Hi! Now that Goodra suspect is over I think it would be worth taking a look at Druddigon in the tier, for pretty similar reasons to Goodra but a different end of the spectrum. While it has a less world-endingly huge special bulk it is still very bulky and takes hits better on the physical side, as well as actually hitting harder overall than Goodra.

    Outside of comparing it I just think Druddi is stupidly ridiculously powerful and very hard to handle for both defensive and offensive teams in NU. Its bulk allows it a number of switch in opportunities in every game and when it comes in, unless you predict perfectly something's going to die. It does have the problem that locking into Outrage means it's easier to handle for a number of threats but the problem is finding a pokemon that can actually ohko Druddi is rare - you have to spend a lot of time whittling it down, frequently having to trade pokemon on your team for a chance to stop it from destroying you. It's also a very credible threat as a defensive and support pokemon but if it were those sets alone I think it would be fine. I definitely think it's too much for the tier - not as much as Goodra was for various reasons but still.
     
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  22. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    Why is goth in NU? I think that should be suspected before anything else. Insert @ThatMushroom 's arguments about shadow tag etc etc.
     
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  23. Trakyan

    Trakyan Member

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    Gothita probably wont get suspected or banned, i'm pretty sure most teams can effectively revenge kill or handle it, stall included, even if it can score a KO or two (even at +6/+6 its still pretty vulerable physically)

    Anyways i think magneton or gallade should be suspected,
    Both have great coverage (steel hits many electric resists, psychic hits many fighting resists), solid attacking power (magneton has analytic, high satk while gallade has SD), decent speed and can effectively use specs/band respectively to break through teams. Not much in the tier can take two hits from either of those two (those that can dont tend to be very durable pokemon, i.e. no recovery etc)

    That being said i'm not opposed to a druddigon suspect, i want to see how that plays out.
     
  24. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    Mr Snake
    The big thing about Goth is that it doesn't need to sweep. All it needs to do is get sent in on some defensive mon that it can handle, take it down, and (if lucky/played really well) score another kill or possibly even sweep.

    The reason why this is broken is because it allows offensive teams to wreak havoc. If you have one pokemon that keeps a powerful sweeper or Wallbreaker from ravaging your team, and that one pokemon is taken down by Goth, your team is now at the mercy of the powerhouse. Goth's ability to take out more than one Pokemon this way (as well as its ability to sweep) are just icing on the cake.
     
  25. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    After playing in Tournaments and the XY NU tours, I've noticed one very powerful force that can be very hard to take down if not handled properly, and that's the giant (when shiny) hot fudge sundae that is Slurpuff. Slurpuff has 2 notable sets that it can use, both of which are very deadly.

    First, there's the Belly Drum set, consisting of Flamethrower, Play Rough, Return, and, well, Belly Drum. After a quick boost from a Sitrus Berry, you're looking at a creature that's resistant to the main priority of the tier (Sucker Punch) and is able to completely destroy things that would usually be considered walls, threats to defeat it, or phazers. As you may note, I'm including Ditto because Ditto does not copy the Unburden boost and therefore is unable to outspeed Slurpuff after the Unburden boost.

    +6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Ditto: 513-604 (171.5 - 202%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Typhlosion: 431-508 (145.1 - 171%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 298-352 (70.9 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Return vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Vileplume: 288-339 (81.3 - 95.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Play Rough vs. 124 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Magneton: 162-191 (59.5 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 390-459 (98.9 - 116.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    What makes Slurpuff more of a force however is its unpredictability due to the equally powerful Calm Mind set. This set, consisting of CM, Flamethrower, Surf, and either Draining Kiss or Dazzling Gleam (usually Draining Kiss), works on the same priniciple: Get knocked down to half health, then strike away with coverage that hits everything for at least neutral damage. The beauty/terror with this set, however, is that most of its would-be checks are then turned into fodder, as the two Pokémon that could be considered the biggest answers to Slurpuff, Magneton with Flash Cannon and Vileplume with Sludge Bomb are no longer able to handle the adorable beast. Once again, here's a few calcs and once again, including Ditto because it does not copy the Unburden boost. Also, for these purposes, let's assume Slurpuff is at +1 from CM, as at that point Slurpuff is unable to be OHKO'd by Magneton (not Specs) and Vileplume and since Draining Kiss isn't in the calculator, I'll be using Air Slash to compensate.

    +1 252+ SpA Slurpuff Flamethrower vs. 124 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Magneton: 216-256 (79.4 - 94.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +1 252+ SpA Slurpuff Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vileplume: 264-312 (74.5 - 88.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +1 252+ SpA Slurpuff Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 316-372 (75.2 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    +1 252+ SpA Slurpuff Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Typhlosion: 276-326 (92.9 - 109.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +1 252+ SpA Slurpuff Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 84-99 (21.3 - 25.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    +1 252+ SpA Slurpuff Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Ditto: 213-251 (71.2 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    As you can see, besides Milotic, after a boost, Slurpuff is capable of destroying almost as much as the Belly Drum set with less of a risk of being shot down. Problem is, even so, there's not much Milotic can do, leading to Slurpuff just setting up again and ultimately killing it while being at full, or close to full, health due to Draining Kiss, barring Toxic. Ultimately, these two sets and the low amount of preparation one can do for Slurpuff is what I feel makes Slurpuff banworthy. Anyone else care to comment on this subject?
     
  26. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    why are you calcing with ditto when ditto's imposter copies slurpuff's stats except its hp? you only listed slurpuff's good points but you fail to acknowledge slurpuff's huge weakness and it's really frail while also being quite vulnerable to most priority. you only listed sucker punch for your own convenience when the tier also has rather decent priority users such as aqua jet feraligatr, quick attack zangoose/scyther, shadow sneak from gallade, spiritomb and also fake out users such as ambipom, kangaskhan and hariyama. Also milotic frequently runs haze which rubs slurpuff of its boosts and forces it to set-up again. I've played with slurpuff+dugtrio before, it is indeed a simple yet effective core but it requires a shitton of support which is honestly unreal, and unlike azumarill in OU, slurpuff is as really frail and without a single boost slurpuff hits weaker than a wet paper bag.

    As I said earlier, slurpuff is really frail and every offense team in NU packs very strong wallbreakers such as specs noivern/sd virizion and also having pretty strong priority users such as CB spiritomb/tb zangoose etc and also manages to exert enough offensive pressure to stop slurpuff from sweeping or hit hard enough to put it in range where their priority users can pick it off easily. balance usually pack either magneton or hippowdon, as well as a solid defensive backbone which has at least one member such as Rotom-H that also coincidentally deals with Slurpuff. Stall is rare but commonly packs haze milotic+steelix, both of which wall slurpuff. My point here is that while on paper slurpuff is a very threatening sweeper being blessed with the combination of a good move and ability but its own personal flaws really hold it back severely and every good team will probably always have a solid answer to slurpuff that can take a hit from it and 1hko back or prevent it from setting up easily due to sheer offensive pressure.

    I honestly dislike CM slurpuff a lot because it requires too much boosts for it to work and its frail defenses means it at most can't set up more than 2 boosts guarenteed without taking a shitton of damage. Furthermore CM slurpuff is so slow and gets rkilled extremely easily.
     
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  27. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Not everyone can run offense, and if you're running the Specs Noivern you mentioned. Oh you used Draco Meteor or Flamethrower, guess Slurpuff just got +6 ecks dee. Oh and let's not forget Encore Wobb or something that can help give Slurpuff a set up.
    Also the fuck you on using words like "really frail". 82/86/75 with Fairy typing isn't "really frail"
    Unlike Azumarill in OU?? It Azumarill has 100/80/80 defenses. That's not so different. Let's also consider that OU is a vast amount more powerful than NU.
    Also if you're trying to set Slurpuff up on Wallbreakers, you're an idiot. Although if you must;
    252 Atk Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff: 130-154 (40.8 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    You can get away with it :^]

    +6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 390-459 (98.9 - 116.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
    Good counter friend. Worked wonders for you.
    +6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 298-352 (70.9 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    Hey that's a little better I guess!

    Steelix is a counter but it's not hard to run Magneton and leave it at the very least holding on with Sturdy. But if you're running Magneton to trap Steelix and Zong for the sake of Slurpuff, run Magnet Rise. (Hint; don't run BD Slur without Magneton or Magneton and Dugtrio.)

    Strong Priority;
    252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Hitmonchan Mach Punch vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff: 55-65 (17.2 - 20.4%) -- possible 5HKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Aqua Jet vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff: 91-109 (28.6 - 34.2%) -- 1.7% chance to 3HKO
    252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff: 153-181 (48.1 - 56.9%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO (I'll give you that one :^])
    252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Quick Attack vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff: 112-133 (35.2 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (It'll do I guess??)
    252+ Atk Choice Band Spiritomb Shadow Sneak vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff: 97-115 (30.5 - 36.1%) -- 49.9% chance to 3HKO (Scratching at Zangoose's heels there!!)
    252+ Atk Dread Plate Spiritomb Sucker Punch vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff: 77-91 (24.2 - 28.6%) -- 98.7% chance to 4HKO (Truly earth shattering)
     
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  28. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    I don't get saying using Encore Wobb to help set up Slurpuff is a valid argument. With that being said, @Weavile , you do bring some pretty good points across. My issue is not with Slurpuff even though I personally don't believe it's broken, but I believe there are FAR more threats in NU that should be looked at before Slurpuff. Those include, but are not limited to Pyroar, Drudd, Sigilyph, Wobb, Ninetails/Drought/Heat Rock, Goth, and maybe Magneton.

    There are like 4 mons that can switch into Specs Pyroar, Drudd can be threatening Banded, Offensive, of Defensively. Sigilyph's CP+SP set is comparable to Slurpuff, but Sigilyph can be threatening without needing to set up. Wobb is just broken and I have no clue why it is in NU to begin with. Ninetails hits like a truck in the sun with the added ability of supporting a team that can abuse Chlorophyll which is broken in NU by itself. Goth does the same things big Goth did in UU, and Magneton is incredibly difficult to switch into and to kill (sometimes).

    I can expand on this later if I need to but I don't believe Slurpuff is the biggest issue for the time being.
     
  29. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    @Weavile

    lol oops my bad about milotic, just saw someone's milotic eat up a +6 play rough and didn't bother to calc but lol nice min roll. I think 82/86/75 is really frail when you take into account that you only need to do 62.5% damage to it (including SR) to kill it if it goes for bdrum and in the very offensive orientated metagame, most offense teams can usually do a solid enough chunk with a strong attack+priority to stop slurpuff from effectively sweeping a team. I compared Slurpuff to Azumarill as both have access to Bdrum and also share a fairy-typing but what azu has is also its water-typing which gives it even more resists and that in turn gives it more set-up opportunities. I also take into account the metagame, where every ou team is usually guarenteed to have either a dragon and/or a fighting-type, and this just makes bdrum azu such a threat because there are so many pokemon it can set-up on. Slurpuff can honestly based on usage alone only set-up on a choice-locked noivern locked into Draco Meteor, and even then specs noivern isn't really that good. Even in the calcs that you mentioned, let's take into account that Hitmonchan is your only prio user (which is shit but w/e) and at minimum does 17.2%. That means you only need to hit Slurpuff for 45.3% damage, and honestly even neutral hits can get the job done and prevent Slurpuff from sweeping an entire team alone. Even strong choice-locked resists are fully capable of pushing Slurpuff into range where it can easily be picked off by priority, such as CB Sawk's CC which btw even has a chance of doing more than 62.5%. Stall has many strong defensive pokemon which can definitely take a hit from Slurpuff and phaze it out. Slurpuff's problem is that it only has one chance to sweep an entire team, and it doesn't have the best defenses or typing to pull off a belly drum consistently and it is also extremely prone to being status'd. I just wanted to voice out that Slurpuff isn't neccessarily broken because it doesn't hit hard and as long as you can prevent it from setting up (which isn't difficult), you honestly don't have that huge of a threat in your hands. I'm personally a Slurpuff user myself, it's really fun to use but it requires a lot of support in taking out its counters which is quite difficult considering most of its counters can usually stick around until endgame or end up being the wincon for stall. I mentioned Hippowdon as a counter because of its ability to phaze, and as Slurpuff has only one shot to clean an entire team, Hippowdon can just be brought in as the Slurpuff user bdrums and just WW out, preventing Slurpuff from doing any more damage to the team. Hippowdon also commonly can afford to switch-in at full health vs Slurpuff because of its access to Slack Off.

    Also every set-up sweeper, not just Slurpuff, appreciates Wobbuffet Encore support. Wobbuffet simply gives a free turn to a set-up sweeper and honestly that's enough to be unhealthy because it just paved a way for the opponent to be swept lategame. What really pushes Wobbuffet over the edge for me is that it simply provides unparalleled support by trapping and killing whatever it wants and also providing a free turn to every set-up sweeper is just icing on cake. Almost every offense team uses rkilling as a method of checking set-up sweepers, and Wobbuffet prevents the set-up sweeper from being checked easily because it will almost always be at full health. Also Volt-Switch+Shift Gear Klinklang+Wobbuffet is a really cool core, volt switch on the predicted klinklang check switch, bring in wobbuffet safely and take out the klinklang check with ease and provide Klinklang a set-up opportunity to set up a SG for free.
     
  30. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    I can totally agree about Wob. Having played with and against it, I can say that Draconinja's analysis of it is pretty accurate. I'd also like to mention how easy it is for it to take down offensive pokes, especially those locked in via a choice item.

    I also still believe Goth is broken, for reasons I've already mentioned, so maybe to kill two birds with one stone we could do a Shadow Tag ban.
     
  31. Trakyan

    Trakyan Member

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    I don't think slurpluff is quite as good as people are making it out to be, it's not terrible but its not banworthy.
    Its defenses are meh (especially considering you dont invest in them, azumarill has considerably better defenses AND invests in them since it doesnt rely on speed), and saying NU is weaker than OU is a poor argument since NU has as many, if not more high base offense pokemon who have been neglected due to speed or typing which doesnt fit in higher tiers (i.e. last gen being water type was pretty much insta OU, and being fire type meant gtfo; see jellicent, vappy etc.). Also, it loses 50% of it's HP when belly drumming, that's no small amount, even if you recover 25% of it. 12.5% will likely be lost to rocks and you'll probably be taking a hit while you drum and possibly while you switch in, you may survive the hit but you'll be very low on health and it wont matter if you resist priority. That suckerpunch you resist? That's how i handle slurpluff, honestly.

    The CM set just seems to lack raw power, its low Satk needs several boosts it probably wont get in order to sweep.

    Wobbufet is interesting, when i play against it wobbufet often scores 1/2 KOes depending on how careful I play but often not much more, and I don't find myself screaming 'BAN IT' when it does. It's a good mon worth using and it does its job well, with countercoat, d bond (fun for all ages when used with custap) and encore but it's not broken. Even with encore set up sweepers pose a threat to it, if it uses countercoat turn one when they set up, then encore as they attack turn two it's probably gonna be KOed turn three and all it did was lock the boosted pokemon into one attack, granted that's usefull for checking it now but you just lost wobbufet. Anyways it's mind games sometimes, and wobbufet finds it hard to trap and kill walls, encore them sure, but KOing is harder, esp if they run Toxic/get a Scald burn/Will-o-Wisp and so on. It does wonderfully against offensive pokemon, though, especially those with no set up(most of them). Wobbufet is probably the one pokemon gamefreak got right; shadowtag with countercoat and high HP with low defenses.
     
  32. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    I do not find Wobb to be particularly unfair in the way some people seem to. It gets kills on offensive mon like Noivern or w/e fairly easily. But even with the Noivern example it has to be wary of U-Turn or Switcheroo that can leave it in a less than ideal situation. If your team doesn't pack something to deal with Wobb on an ideal switch-in, at the very least a Spiritomb. Then simply put, your team isn't metagame suited.
    @Trakyan tragically custap is completely illegal this gen so far (although who knows what ORAS holds).

    As for Goth, idk, I actually would quite like to see it gone. I think it's disruptive and cancerous in a way that Wobb simply isn't. But that's just my opinion with no argument yet formulated.
     
  33. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Shadow Tag (aside from the unique Wobb) is cancer in all tiers and always has been imo. To quote a once great man:

    'Switching is the fundamental basis of competitive pokemon' or at least something to that effect.

    As for Slurpuff I'm not convinced, It's far better on paper than in practice. As Trakyan said the BD set finds it difficult to set up without taking too much damage, and is left walled hard by Steel types not limited to but including, Steelix and Bronzong, which can beat the trappers Slurpuff needs to be paired with to be effective. CM is initially too weak, it has good coverage but more than enough Checks to not be considered broken. Another major point is that, since its so heavily reliant on Unburden to sweep, you can't even use it's defensive typing and decent defenses to full effect, since switching in on a marginally powerful attack/Knock Off will mean your unburden being activated early, turning you in to a less than mediocre mon.

    Overall:
    Goth - Would support a ban.
    Wobb - Suspect at best, very unlikely ban.
    Slurpuff - No Suspect.