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Suspect Discussion: Heracross (Banned)

Discussion in 'Gen 6 LU' started by Xdevo, Sep 10, 2014.

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  1. Xdevo

    Xdevo Some things can't be changed Tiering Administrator Tour Director Tiering Administrator Tour Director

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    Discuss the possibility of banning Heracross from the XY LU metagame.

    Post intelligently based off of experience in the tier. Posts based off theorymon risk forum infractions.

    Attempt to find the checks and counters (or lack thereof) for Heracross as well as its impact and power in the metagame. Do not simply say "it's broken" or "it's not broken". Back up your arguments on why you think it should be banned or not.

    Most importantly, elaborate on your points and try to think of counter arguments as you're posting. No one or two sentence posts will be allowed, and this will be strictly enforced.

    If a consensus is reached, the result will likely be implemented in the metagame.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2014
  2. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    I think that it is quite clear that Heracross is broken, but elaboration and a proper suspect is still necessary, so I shall elaborate.

    Heracross in LU is a metagame defining pokemon. To exemplify this, Gligar sees a massive usage increases solely due to Heracross now being present (not to suggest that Gligar was previously mediocre, but it certainly was not a top 5 pokemon in the tier). On a similar note, Nidoqueen and Aromitirasse have also seen increase use just to check Heracross, who is sitting at 42% ranked usage, himself. With this being said, usage statistics don't mean much and shouldn't be the basis of an argument; however, the reason heracross is receiving this usage and there are so many shifts in the metagame is also the reason why Heracross is broken.

    What is that reason? Well, with the solid dual STABs in Fighting (Close Combat) + Bug (Megahorn) in conjunction with coverage such as Stone Edge (for flying types like Tornadus, Yanmega and Moltres) and Knock Off (for ghost types such as Froslass, Jellicent, and Cofagrigus / general utility), Heracross is very hard to wall without something like the aforementioned Gligar being present on your team (which still doesn't like Knock Off, but will not have an issue walling Heracross with or without it). If you come unprepared, you aren't ever safe as once it gets one kill, it gains a moxie boost, spelling doom for (offensive) teams given proper circumstances. With that being said, Heracross can do other things besides being a Scarf moxie sweeper / revenge killer, which arguably isn't even Hera's most broken set, btw. One of these roles it can fulfill would be Swords Dance sweeping. Heracross with a Swords Dance is threatening to almost anything in the tier, barring a few things depending on the full moveset. It's not too frail and usual checks like Gligar find themselves being set up on unless they have the rare Aerial Ace (or pull out something like counter on the eventual boosted attack if it's not SubSD Hera). The SD Heracross variants that I've seen, albeit in a limited period of time, are SubSD (sometimes with Salac), SD Three Attacks, and the rare Toxic Orb Guts SD Heracross, which hits like a truck, but also has a short life-span. All in all, each of these has their merits, but they all play into the brokenness of Heracross as it's difficult to counter and normal counters can potentially struggle given the situation that they're in vs SD Heracross. Finally, Choice Band is the third general set that you'll see heracross using. While it's still walled by Gligar, nothing much else (maybe 1 or 2 things) can switch in on it and Hera isn't that slow for LU standards, nor is it that frail for an offensive pokemon, either. Burning it just makes it an even larger threat, thanks to guts, and revenge killing is how most teams have to deal with it unless they have one of the few checks/counters.

    So, I think that Heracross is very broken in LU and a ban of it would help the tier quite a lot. With that being said, this is based off of limited experience, but I don't think that will hurt the quality of this post too much.
     
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  3. Health

    Health Champion of LU

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    I agree with Finch on the basis that as it near outspeeds almost every major scarfer in the tier, and can OHKO most of them to boot! I got nothing else to say, since Finch has already said it fine.
     
  4. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Might as well give people more to go off, because, PEOPLE NEED TO ACTUALLY POST THEIR OPINIONS, and not just read on their computers for something to actually get done the way they might want to. Anyway, Heraboss, the mega power beetle.

    Heracross shares several things in common with our last suspect Krookodile in a lot of ways, but goes beyond what Krook is capable of. Heracross has a strong dual stab typing of Bug/Fighting, with a move set in tow of Megahorn and Close Combat being it's bread and butter moves with Knock Off access and filler move of Stone Edge/Earthquake for optional coverage against its checks. Base 85 speed isn't the best, but paired with a scarf it becomes one of the toughest to outspeed in any form to which there aren't many counters to it. Especially as Moxie pairing means a sweep is potentially happening. However, it's not limited to just a scarf, as Choice Band is a highly optional choice just to rip through teams, where the only negative drawback really is Megahorn's accuracy if you are locked into the move vs the need for speed. The idea of burning Heracross to cripple it usually is a nigh idea because with access to the ability Guts, there are times you are playing against yourself on deciding if it is GUTS or MOXIE Cross. Heracross is also a versatile pokemon, in that it's not limited to a choice set as finch said. Swords Dance is a huge benefactor to making Heracross as strong as it is in this tier. SD can be combined with as said SubSalac, 3 attacks, and apparently Toxic/Flame Orb type sets are gonna get some usage here.

    As far as checks and counters go:

    Gligar - Heracross has nothing to touch Gligar except trying to SD up and do something with like Knock Off + Stone Edge. Against CS/CB + non SD sets, you aren't touching it. Knock Off is a hinderance to gligar, but it's still going to be an incredible physical wall, which is what it's job is supposed to be.

    Aromatisse - If it had the option to Poison Jab stuff up, Heraboss would be even more broken if breaking through this was a trouble for it. Aromatisse just walls all it's main coverage moves and hits back 2x with Moonblast. Wish support for fellow teammates is a nice thing.

    Nidoqueen - Without having EQ on the set, Scarf Hera can do like 38% max to a somewhat bulky Nidoqueen, about 43% to a no invested at all Queen. A +1 from moxie would allow Hera to 2HKO queen, but fear of FB or just Sludge Wave doing massive damage should scare Heracross off. If you aren't coming in with this first and allowing something to die, you are obviously doing something wrong too.

    Mega Banette / Banette - Can come in on CC and Megahorn is a 3HKO, fears Knock Off, but with prankster destiny bond scaring it off, but that's basically going for a kill for a kill, especially for something as "lowly" as banette vs the powerhouse that is Heracross.

    Moltres/Yanmega - Resists both main stabs, Damage from Knock Off is average to 2hko range, doesn't like the potential Stone Edge, nor having SR in the tier. Really shaky checks, but one with speed boost to outspeed and both having strong attacks leave them really shaky as checks, as they need team support against those Hera's with SR support.

    Tentacruel - Check to scarf Hera. Resists both stabs to a 3HKO, and can toxic or scald burn them to shorten their live span. Can also use the turn for spin or toxic spike utility support as however it is used. Though EQ sets would ruin it.

    Granbull - Like aromatisse, can counter because of intimidate, but lacks any recovery, but uses the turn for either T-wave support, Heal Bell, or just attacking.

    Weezing - Starting to dip into the bottom. Weezing just walls Heracross. Just everything it does, and has a useful niche in LU, but nothing huge or something that's gonna wall a lot because it's only redeeming quality is Pain Split to recover and below average ability to do damage with random special attacks.

    As far as I've played, Heracross thanks to the ability to run a variety of sets is incredibly hard to counter, especially because be it Choice Scarf or Choice Band or Life Orb anything that attempts to come in is going to be potentially 2HKO'd. Banded sets act as a lure to stuff like Alomomola which can wish protect scarf Hera out, but can lose vs banded. Life Orb has it's fun with Bulky styles of play. Scarf ruins offensive teams due to their frail nature. With about 3 real counters to it, and only a small handful of checks to various bits of sets, it just feels like it's too much for the tier.
     
  5. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    I don't have much to offer to this discussion that isn't what's already been said but Heraboss is way too much for LU to handle. Between its huge amount of sets all of which destroy a large portion of the metagame (scarf, band, like 4 different SD sets, LO, etc) its very small number of "counters" become shaky checks and when Hera is in play it frequently becomes a guessing game about the set that if you guess wrong you lose a pokemon or get a sweep set up on you. Gligar and Alomomola are the most common "counters" but Gligar can be beaten by SD sets unless Aerial Ace and Alomomola is total set up bait for them when they have Guts. There are a few other pokemon that prevent Hera from washing over you instantly (Qwilfish, Nidoqueen, Aromatisse, etc) but most lack the ability to be a threat to Hera and Hera has a reasonably easy time coming in and out of play. Its main STABs wreck most of the tier and access to Knock Off eases prediction massively and allows residual damage to easily rack up on the few defensive pokemon that can touch it. Most teams have strong difficulty getting through Hera while Hera has ease getting through most teams, even those with multiple checks. It needs to go.
     
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  6. Proof

    Proof Well-Known Member

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    Banning Heracross from LU.

    All 3 tier leaders are in support for a Heracross ban, and over 2 weeks has past since the suspect was opened. There's unanimity between all 4 people who posted in this thread, and no one has stated that they're opposed to a Heracross ban. To reiterate what Celest and Finch said: Heracross is ridiculously powerful with near-perfect coverage, and only has approximately 3 counters in the tier. At a whopping 40% ranked usage, Heracross is simply too overcentralizing for LU. only 1 or 2 pokemon can really counter heracross efficiently throughout a whole game, and they can't status Heracross due to the fear of activating Guts. The Moxie set, in comparison, is a nightmare for almost every offensive LU team. Heracross can also use knock off to hit threats like alomomola, and weaken them for the rest of the game. Overall, Heracross has too many qualities that make it overpowered, and almost every LU team is based around it at the moment.
     
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