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[BW2] Suspect Discussion: Shandera

Discussion in 'Gen 5 Discussion' started by Cake, Nov 24, 2010.

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  1. Cake

    Cake Member

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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]/[​IMG]
    60 HP / 55 Atk / 90 Def / 145 SpA / 90 SpD / 80 Spe
    Weak to: Rock, Water, Dark, Ghost, Ground
    Resists: Bug (4x), Fire (sans Flash Fire), Grass, Ice, Steel, Poison
    Immune: Fighting, Normal, Fire (with Flash Fire)

    First things first, things you need to stop arguing about: Spikes, and it being fragile. It's bulkier than Starmie. But it's HP when uninvested won't let it live for too long. Still, it can take a hit if needed.
    It should be noted it's weak to Stealth Rock(25%) and Sandstorm does wear it down. But it's still going have 4 switches in if Stealth Rock is in play and you come in after kills. It's less if Sandstorm and Stealth Rock are both up but it's still 2, maybe 3.

    From Lee of Smogon. I find four of these hard to believe but the fact he said after Stealth Rock leads me to believe he ran calcs. So it's whatever.

    A few things not listed above that are still viable that Shandera gets are Slowbro, Swampert, Roobushin(some), Azelf, Weavile, Alakazam, Celebi, Scizor, Roserade.

    Ah yes, Shandera. Something everyone seems to be talking about. With good reason. It can trap walls to let your sweepers sweep, AND revenge kill, with the same set. There are two forms of defense against Shandera. Pursuit, and Shed Shell. Shed Shell means you kiss your Leftovers goodbye and residual damage will add up eventually, especially if you're not immune to Sandstorm. Also it's protection for the single mon you gave it to. Then there is Pursuit. Forcing you to use a specific set of mons with a specific move just to stop Shandera. Tyranitar is the most used for the act of this. Your only real option is for it to trap something that can Paralyze it which makes it worthless.

    It's got Mach Punch immunity. The most common priority. Plus it only comes in on what it wants to. Azumarill isn't going to get Shandera. He'll just switch. It can either gamble and come in on attack it resists/are immune to or come in after something dies unharmed.

    Need I say more? I think not. Have at it. Anyone who's had experience with it as an anti-lead do explain in full. I have used it to back my suicide lead but that's it.

    Oh and if I see one person who comes in talking about Shandera is not broken because you've never had a problem with it taking more than one of your pokemon because YOU use Pursuit I will come and find you and stab you 87 times over the course of 60 seconds.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2010
  2. Stofil

    Stofil Hello Miss Galaxy

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    I'd like to point to statistics for dream world. Shandera is on an insane amount of teams for a very good reason, unlike the two other shadow taggers Shandera has an offensive presence with the highest special attack outside of ubers as well as immunities and a lot more common resistances with which to switch in if needed. The case here is not that the two other all-trappers are inadequate, Shandera is just way easier to use as a revenge killer against anything other then choice users (and even then he still performs that role well, just not as well as wobbufett). He eliminates walls and attackers with extreme ease thanks to these traits and I would definately say he is broken under the support characteristic, use him right and what you want dead is pretty much dead with a near 100% chance of succes because NOTHING can escape unless they give up a valuable item-slot or constantly u-turn/volt-change. Even then U-Turn only means it has escaped momentarily, and it has to be on the switch and THEN it's still a 4x resist.

    It is also worth to note that all of Shandera's "counters" has to switch in after it has done its job save for shed shell, and even then the only viable pursuiter for coming in (as far as I recall, don't quote me on this) is Tyranitar. When you have to run one specific Pokémon to reliably get rid of a 100% trapper that can viably pick off 54% of OU at its leisure tells me that this thing might just be overpowered.
     
  3. Count Typo

    Count Typo Member

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    Some calcs:

    252 Sp. Atk/252 Speed Timid Shanderaa VS 252 Atk/252 Speed Jolly Tyranitar

    Pursuit vs Shanderaa = 57.5% - 67.4% (6% chance to OHKO)
    Boosted Pursuit vs Shanderaa = 112.6% - 133.3%
    Crunch vs Shanderaa = 112.6% - 133.3%
    Stone Edge vs Shanderaa = 140.2% - 165.5% (80% chance to OHKO)
    Earthquake vs Shanderaa = 93.5% - 110.3% (62% chance to OHKO)
    Shadow Ball vs Tyranitar = 13.7% - 16.4%
    Flamethrower vs Tyranitar = 16.4% - 19.3%
    Fire Blast vs Tyranitar = 20.8% - 24.6%
    Overheat vs Tyranitar = 24.3% - 28.7%
    Energy Ball vs Tyranitar = 36.8% - 43.9%
    Hidden Power Ice vs Tyranitar = 16.4% - 19.3%
    Hidden Power Fighting vs Tyranitar = 65.5% - 77.2% (6% chance to OHKO)

    EDIT: Got bored and decided to some some more

    252 Sp. Atk/252 Speed/4 Sp.Def Timid Shanderaa VS 252 HP/252 Def/4 Sp.Def Impish Snorlax (Thick Fat)

    +0 Flamethrower vs Snorlax = 14.5% - 17.4%
    +1 Flamethrower vs Snorlax = 21.9% - 26.0%
    +2 Flamethrower vs Snorlax = 29.2% - 34.5%

    +0 Fire Blast vs Snorlax = 18.9% - 22.3%
    +1 Fire Blast vs Snorlax = 28.1% - 33.2%
    +2 Fire Blast vs Snorlax = 37.4% - 44.3%

    +0 Energy Ball vs Snorlax = 16.8% - 19.8%
    +1 Energy Ball vs Snorlax = 25.0% - 29.6%
    +2 Energy Ball vs Snorlax = 33.4% - 39.3%

    +0 Psychic vs Snorlax = 18.7% - 22.1%
    +1 Psychic vs Snorlax = 28.1% - 33.2%
    +2 Psychic vs Snorlax = 37.4% - 44.1%

    +0 Crunch vs Shanderaa = 52.1% - 62.1% (6% chance to OHKO, 57% with SR and 2 layers of Spikes)
    +1 Crunch vs Shanderaa = 78.2% - 92.7% (6% chance to OHKO, 100% with SR, 33% with one layer of Spikes, 76% with two)

    +0 Earthquake vs Shanderaa = 65.1% - 77.4% (6% chance to OHKO, 21% with SR, 100% with one layer of Spikes and SR)
    +1 Earthquake vs Shanderaa = 98.1% - 115.7% (88% chance to OHKO, 100% with SR, 100% with one layer of Spikes)
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2010
  4. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    This is just an honest question: what's the point of these calcs? We have already talked about Tyranitar being able to Pursuit Shandera 100% of the time. Stone Edge/EQ calcs are worthless, because the thing is going to try and escape anyway. If it's an argument for Shandera not to go uber, one specific pokemon that puts a full stop to the suspect is not enough to prove your point, especially when it needs to revenge.
     
  5. Count Typo

    Count Typo Member

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    Not in this thread, which is the official suspect thread.

    So then what is.
     
  6. Stofil

    Stofil Hello Miss Galaxy

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    Because when T-tar gets in, Shandera will already have filled the support characteristic a large amount of the time, if accompanied by stealth rock the user can easily tell whether Nattorei has shed shell or not and plan accordingly which just means T-tar has to take the chance of standing face to face with something like Roopushin/Zuruzukin who will enjoy his switch and start setting up. There's also the thing with Shandera running hp fighting, which does a decent amount to many of the things fearing Shandy and will 2HKO Tyranitar a good amount of the time if it has not invested in bulk.

    A good way to prove Shandera would not be uber would be that something could come in and threate- Oops, no switching out. Seriously though, plenty of things force Shandera out, but only T-Tar can do the same thing Shandera does to a large portion of the metagame, a guaranteed kill. Pretty much everything else either doesn't like being crippled by overheat while hitting Shandera with a weak pursuit or lacks it, which means Shandy is free to switch out and come back later to kill something with a near 100% efficency.
     
  7. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    kyogre cant touch gastrodon, that make kyogre less uber? no... im not going to give my argument about shandera yet, im still undecided
     
  8. Stofil

    Stofil Hello Miss Galaxy

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    ... I'm not entirely sure if you're aiming that on me or Typo.
     
  9. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    that was for typo, but my point apply for everyone who think because a pokemon is countered by a poke (or a small group of pokes) means he isnt uber (thats why the gastrodon/ kyogre thing)
     
  10. N8theGr8

    N8theGr8 Member

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    The fact that it 1HKOs half the metagame with Stealth Rock disturbs me. There's a pretty big fucking problem there. Even without Shadow Tag, being able to outspeed and 1HKO 54% of the metagame is a really impressive feat, but Shadow Tag is what breaks Shandera completely. You don't need any skill or prediction if you slap on the standard set that's probably used on 90% of all Shandera (I salute that 10% that don't). There's no counter to Shandera because the entire point of Shandera being broken is that you can't switch to a counter. And I'm pretty sure if you can't reliably stop your Pokemon from being raped just because it's weak to a type Shandera has without overcentralizing it, there's a major problem. And, having used Shandera as an anti-lead along with Espeon, it really lacks any skill to either completely destroy the opponents lead and then flee, or flee first to Espeon who bounces back the Rocks that Shandera hates, status, etc. He may not make the best anti-lead, but it's all worth it when your opponent is carrying Nattorei as a lead and there's nothing they can do from stopping their Pokemon from getting killed on Turn 1 (That's just an example). And Pursuiters? Really? The two biggest Pursuiters of Gen 4, in my opinion, were CB Scizor and Tyranitar. I haven't seen any new real Pursuiters show themselves, either. CB Scizor isn't even close to a problem because not even an idiot would switch in a Pokemon 4x weak to whatever Fire move Shandera's packing. Tyranitar's a problem, but because of his 4x weakness to Fighting, if you're really afraid you can pair Shandera up with Blaziken/Roobushin/Kojondo/any fighting type and stop Tyranitar from coming close to Shandera. People said Doryuuzu would shape the metagame of this generation, when in all actuality it's Shandera that's done it.

    tl;dr Shadow Tag is a broken ability and throwing it on Shandera makes it way too overpowered.
     
  11. cosmicexplorer

    cosmicexplorer SWAG

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    I disagree that Tyranitar is anything but a foolproof Shandera counter, and I question its viability as a lead, but the fact that it can outspeed and OHKO much of the metagame with Steath Rock is pretty important.
     
  12. evolutia

    evolutia Member

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    Shandera "cannot" be countered unless your using Shed Shell. Tyranitar can however "revenge" kill Shandera. Revenging =/= countering.

    Just popping into say that Shandera shouldn't be banned, only dream world Shandera should be banned unless someone has a very good argument as to why Shandera without Shadow Tag should be banned.

    I think that Shandera is a better Dugtrio/Magnezone. It's trapping trait is much better then those too, it also have two abusable immunities to switch in on. Even if you revenge it, if Shandera killed a pokemon, it's done it's job. If it was more defensively oriented like the other two users of Shadow Tag, I don't think we'd be having this discussion.
     
  13. Cake

    Cake Member

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    I agree evolutia but the majority disagrees with banning specific abilities which is why I said anyone who likes it enough to use it without Shadow Tag people probably won't even care. Which raises the question why did people vote yes? Banning a specific ability was mainly if not only for Shandera.
     
  14. Galblade

    Galblade FAT PRINCESS

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    Banning abilities also applied to Drizzle, Snow Warning, Drought and Sand Stream too. There are valid reasons for them to be suspect this gen.
     
  15. evolutia

    evolutia Member

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    I dislike banning a pokemon due to a completely "optional" trait. Players have to put in a substantial effort to even earn certain dream world abilities. It's different than the Wobbuffet situation where it had to "earn' something in order to get Telepathy. Shandera, if found to be broken, just gets banned because people put effort into finding it on the dream world? Something just doesn't sit right with banning a pokemon just because of that. Still, if that's what the majority wants, as much as I dislike it, I guess their isn't anything I can do.
     
  16. yiran

    yiran Become a Magical Girl!

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    Snow Warning? What the...

    Anyways, Shandera is broken as it gurantees a kill each match unless you have six Heatrans / Houndooms / whatever. The fact it is revenge killed by Ttar does not make a difference - you still did you job, and that definitely is centralising the metagame around pursuit even more.
     
  17. Cake

    Cake Member

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    Fair enough. Was a bit tired when I posted. Didn't really think about it. Shadow Tag is still the most obviously suspect imo.
     
  18. Crystal Moogle

    Crystal Moogle Ayaya~

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    If one weather ability gets banned, then they should all be banned.
     
  19. Ginku

    Ginku Banned

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    Why?

    If one weather is not broken, I don't see why it should be banned just because it's about weather.

    Also I still don't think shandera is uber, but can't really explain why. It's simply...I don't know, it just doesn't feel like uber material. Characteristics still suck.
     
  20. Cake

    Cake Member

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    You best not be getting at what I think you are.

    I can't seem to get the right word for why Hail should be banned if the other 3 are but it should. : / it'd just be the new center for weather if the other 3 were gone.
     
  21. Drigger

    Drigger Fabula Nova Crystallis

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    I'm of the opinion that Shandera just ends up being just another scarfed pokemon. Barring it has the best trapping ability without choise scarf it really gets pwned by alot fo other speedy pokemon which makes Shandera predictable! There are far more threatning pokemon that are abusing weather that arent locked into one move and can KO multiple pokemon without fear of needing to be switched out because a counter came in.

    Fine Shadow Tag makes it the best trapper but in the current metagame you need a pokemon like Shandera if you want to compete or you just wind up gettign 6-0'd by a weather abuser who si free to kill switch and counter your team till kingdom comes
     
  22. Mew

    Mew Member

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    I think shadera should be Uber. As a lot of people already said, it can OHKO more than half of the probable metagame with SR (a la scarfChomp) and is only countered 100% by Tyranitar.

    That would mean pretty much every team will have to pack a Tyranitar if you don't want to have at least 1 kill. Which would mean Doryuuzu will get extreme usage numbers, which would mean OU could become a "sandstorm tier". I don't like the idea of that...
     
  23. Cake

    Cake Member

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    I'm sorry, what?
     
  24. Ginku

    Ginku Banned

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    I don't have it with words today, so
    +my general "deal with it" mentality, shandera being easy to set up on, weak to SR, most likely not getting more than 1 kill (yes I know one kill is enough but well look at the quote) and having rather bad defenses (it may be bulkier than starmie but it's 2HKO'd by bullet punch after SR). Can't seem to find a fitting last sentence.

    "Ban it because it's weather" doesn't seem like the right way to handle tiering if you ask me. Not at all.
     
  25. Stofil

    Stofil Hello Miss Galaxy

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    Switching into Scizor has never been wise anyway, 50% of the time he just u-turns out and checkmates you with t-tar. Also should we really discuss weather here? Shandera does not need the sun boost to do its job and rain puts a damper on it. Setting up on Shandera after he has killed is not really an argument either, because it means you get a free switch into whatever scares Shandera off the best. Name one 'mon that has not had its counters removed/is on a sweep with boosted stats that after a kill is not forced out by something that isn't already uber.
     
  26. Galblade

    Galblade FAT PRINCESS

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    There should really be a discussion on whether Shadow tag Shandy is broken, as it's pretty clear that FF Shandy isn't. FF shandy actually does have some use on my TR teams and I would prefer if Shandy isn't banned all together just because of Shadow tag.
     
  27. Stofil

    Stofil Hello Miss Galaxy

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    We'd be going against smogon then I guess, but it would of course be nice with a shadow tag clause just overall for DW or something.
     
  28. coyotte508

    coyotte508 Well-Known Member Administrator Server Owner Administrator Server Owner

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    This is a suspect thread. Everyone knows Shanderaa is fine without Shadow Tag, and the possibility of banning one ability only from it isn't what's discussed. Focus on the subject.
     
  29. Galblade

    Galblade FAT PRINCESS

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    I suppose I should begin another thread now that we have a Pokemon that is only suspect because of one of its abilities. Sorry for going off topic.
     
  30. Drigger

    Drigger Fabula Nova Crystallis

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    hmmm just saying that shandera is fine as it is and should not be uber just because its the best at what it does i.e Trap/Revenge Pokemon

    Kingdra and Doryuuzu are free to change moves without having to switch out... Shandera cant so in any event shandera comes in Kills latios with shadow ball then oppoent sends out Porygon2 ... Shandera is forced to switch so who ever comes in better be able to ko pory, wall pory or prevent it from setting up. compared to Doryuuzu who can kill latios and then further SD/ or jsut deal a huge chunk of damage on Porygon2 or anything for the matter inside of SS

    all i'm trying to say is that is not broken and has just what it needs to compete right now! atleast you get one kill before Tyranitar comes in traps you then dory sweeps the rest of your party :D lol
     
  31. N8theGr8

    N8theGr8 Member

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    You're not making any sense at all. In the instance you provided, Shandera kills a Pokemon and is free to run. That's why it's broken. Because it comes in on what it wants, takes it out, and then runs. You could switch out Latios and send in Skarmory or something against Doryuuzu, but not against Shandera. You're missing the point of why Shandera is even suspect in the first place.
     
  32. Drigger

    Drigger Fabula Nova Crystallis

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    I'm not missing the point... I'm saying that hit and run is shandera's purpose and it should not have to go uber becvase it gets the job done. just deal with it

    There will never be a case where shandera KO's all six of you pokemon in full sussesion unless its really really late game and you have severly worn down all of the opposing team.

    There are even greater threats to be worried about rather than shandera IMO
     
  33. Stofil

    Stofil Hello Miss Galaxy

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    You still do not seem to get it, something that can reliably kill everything it switches in on bare a miss without the opposing player being able to do anything about it is broken because it removes checks or counters to the 5 other 'mons in your team. Shandera is not supposed to be banned under the sweeper classification, but in the support characteristic. Shandera's job is not to kill all of the 'mons in your team, its job is to remove key parts holding the team together to allow for a sweep. Is Shandera a 100% win button? No, but the support it gives on the basis of once being in which isn't hard to do because he is immune to one status, does not care for another and has 2 immunities and a lot of resistances to switch in with, he can kill over 50% of the popular OU metagame with SR on the field.

    I'll say it again, Shandera will dismantle and there is close to nothing you can do about it. There's nearly no reason to not run Shandera on your team unless you're using drizzletoad because it is an amazing supporter that traps and eliminates both walls and sweepers with efficency unlike anything else save for maybe Wobbufett.
     
  34. N8theGr8

    N8theGr8 Member

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    No, it should go uber because it always gets the job done unless your team is specifically designed to counter Shandera. It doesn't KO all six of the opponents Pokemon, but its role isn't a sweeper. Its role is to revenge kill, which it does better than any other Pokemon I know, unless someone would like to correct me. Even then, I've gone through 4 Pokemon on my opponent's team just by switching in Shandera, picking them off, and then running. Just because Shandera's role isn't a sweeper and it doesn't 6-0 teams does not mean he's broken, it just means that his role isn't a sweeper. He's a revenge killer, which he does way too well because you CAN'T switch to a counter, unless you have a Shed Shell.

    And if you're going to say Doryuuzu is more of a threat than Shandera, get out now because this isn't the place to discuss that.

    EDIT: It appears, for the most part, that I've been ninja'd by Stofil.
     
  35. Drigger

    Drigger Fabula Nova Crystallis

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    I'm in support of Shandera not getting banned to Uber so yes it guess I dont get it.
     
  36. mibuchiha

    mibuchiha Was yea ra chs ieeya.

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    I don't know what kind of team you played against, but it gotta suck if shandy managed to revenge 4 of the team. Assume the scarf/specs set. After it killed 1 (with overheat presumably) just switch in something that laughs at its halved SpA and/or moves it's locked in, and set up merrily as it scurries away. And that would mean tremendous advantage to the opponent. Sure, you might switch in a counter to the pokemon that set up, but hey, that's just back to our good ol' gaming. I see nothing broken there.

    It may has great SpA, but it lacks the move to fully utilize it. 0/200 Rob survives anything unboosted Shandy can whirl at it, even after rocks, and I've never seen a Shandy that survives payback just yet. Not to mention Sazan, it goes :3 to all of those bar hidden power.

    Considering what happens AFTER it revenges a pokemon, I can't see what's uber about it. No ban is my vote.
     
  37. Stofil

    Stofil Hello Miss Galaxy

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    Everything has something that forces them out which garners set-up, but guess what? You can carry checks and counters to things that force Shandera out! If everything was decided on forcing something out just once there wouldn't be much strategy to Pokémon as a game to begin with. Before you argue the same about Shandera, he completely nullifies the chance that you can do anything about your switch-in, there's no switching to counters, what you have out there either should hope it is really bulky, because if the Shandera player has switched in their chandelier at you oddses are things are not in your favour.

    EDIT: Also even if Roopushin survives he is still crippled and slow, and guess what? Shandera probably trapped and crippled your Clown so something else wouldn't be bothered by mach punches in sweeping.

    EDIT again: You also seem to forget that once you send Shandera away with the tail between its legs it has still done what people want to ban him for, murdered something without a chance to escape.
     
  38. mibuchiha

    mibuchiha Was yea ra chs ieeya.

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    My point is, if 1 pokemon is about all he can kill, then he doesn't deserve the ban. Shandy can't OHKO that much part of the meta, and i doubt I think highly of those whose team ruined just by having 1 pokemon (probably weakened) taken out.
     
  39. Stofil

    Stofil Hello Miss Galaxy

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    He OHKOes 54% of the popular metagame with SR, and unless you have a pursuiter it will have the chance to OHKO several of your members easily just because it picks its battles. While it might seem strange, the amount of things that can be killed by a base 145 special attack coupled with a scarf is actually a lot (as evident by the 54% of the popular metagame going splat) which means that, as mentioned, there's nothing stopping shandera from switching out and then coming back in.

    The thing with Shandera is not that it gets a kill, it is that it gets a kill against PRECISELY what you want dead, nothing aside from trappers and pursuiters can claim this option, and pursuiters has to hit the opposition with a 40 BP move while the other trappers without shadow tag has a select few targets or are hindered by lackluster offensive stats.
     
  40. coyotte508

    coyotte508 Well-Known Member Administrator Server Owner Administrator Server Owner

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    54% ? Can you provide details? This seems really too much. Can you give calcs for each pokemon it supposedly kills? And define the popular metagame? (and not just quote lee's post, Garchomp is in it...)
     
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