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Vote

Discussion in 'Active Themes' started by VirajVora, Sep 13, 2014.

  1. VirajVora

    VirajVora VirajVora...

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    I'll make it look like Dethy for now in few hours... And that 100 Votecount idea is very bad I guess... First of all it win/loss ratio will be 9:1... Also, did you notice that Villager (-1) has +100 votecount which is the one who gets lynched... Even if I ignore that too, there is no way I could balance this thing in it...

    For the moment I am just keeping it as Dethy... But I still feel people must know what were their role when they died as this wont change the balancing issues... Anyways gonna wait for more comments and going to change in just like it in Dethy-like for right now...
     
  2. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    Mafia is lynched because they would have 99, which is greater than the 98.9 that the Villager would have. I don't think it would hurt balance because still no one knows what their vote count is. The only thing it averts is automatically losing when the 1 or 2 positive Voters are found. Up to you though.

    I don't recommend having the Vote flip on death. It removes any suspense or deductive reasoning, especially when it comes down to the last few players alive.
     
  3. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    It's possible to have a player that gets nightkilled being told what their actual vote was: Add some dummy commands to the nightkill action and have it send a dummytargetmsg for the victim. You will also need to set some evasions and stuff, similar to how the Bulbasaur/Charmander/Squirtle work in Trainers.
    As for lynched players, no idea how to set that so only the killed person would know. But in any case, if you use a setup similar to Dethy, then there's always the possibility of asking an MA to use /readlog to check their actual roles.
     
  4. VirajVora

    VirajVora VirajVora...

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    Ok, then I guess I won't keep dead players knowing their roles for now...
    I changed it similar to Dethy for now... The issue came is that in order to change it like Dethy, I need to add Curse role through which players change role N1... Now after I added the curse, the below bolded message comes...


    (06:06:27) *** ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
    (06:06:27) Times Up! :
    (06:06:27) The Roles have been Decided! :
    (06:06:27) ±Game: You are a Villager!
    (06:06:27) ±Game: You are a normal citizen of Village. You have to defeat the revealed Mafia with the help of your vote. However your votecount was altered by Mafia. So you can have any votecount between -3 to +3. You have to vote safely in order to remove Mafia.
    (06:06:27) ±Game: The Mafia is Lombre, Phione, Zubat!
    (06:06:27) ±Current Roles: Mafia, Mafia, Mafia, Village Elder, Villager (+1), Villager (+3), Villager (-1), Villager (-3), Villager (0).
    (06:06:27) ±Current Players: Castform, Cranidos, Emolga, Lombre, Metapod, Noctowl, Phione, Pikachu, Zubat.
    (06:06:27) ±Current Team: Village Elder, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager
    (06:06:27) ±Time: Night 1
    (06:06:27) Make your moves, you only have 35 seconds! :
    (06:06:27) *** ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
    (06:06:29) *** ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
    (06:06:29) Times Up! :
    (06:06:29) ±Game: Your curse took effect and you changed roles!
    (06:06:29) ±Game: You are a Villager!
    (06:06:29) ±Game: You are a normal citizen of Village. You have to defeat the revealed Mafia with the help of your vote. However your votecount was altered by Mafia. So you can have any votecount between -3 to +3. You have to vote safely in order to remove Mafia.
    (06:06:29) ±Game: The Mafia is Lombre, Phione, Zubat!

    (06:06:29) No one died! :
    (06:06:29) *** ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
    (06:06:29) ±Current Roles: Mafia, Mafia, Mafia, Village Elder, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager.
    (06:06:29) ±Current Players: Castform, Cranidos, Emolga, Lombre, Metapod, Noctowl, Phione, Pikachu, Zubat.
    (06:06:29) ±Current Team: Village Elder, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager
    (06:06:29) ±Time: Day 1 (Standby)
    (06:06:29) You have 25 seconds to debate who are the bad guys! :
    (06:06:29) *** ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
    (06:06:35) Game Paused


    I tried to find it out but am unable to... So in order to remove the above message, I need help... Sorry for troubling you guys :[
     
  5. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    "silentCurse": true
     
  6. VirajVora

    VirajVora VirajVora...

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    Ok then, I made it similar to Dethy...

    I also made it in such a way that now maximum one Villager with 0 votecount will be available and not more than that...

    I guess this sorts out all the problems till now except border which I just colored it and gonna wait to see reaction of people...
     
  7. Pangaea

    Pangaea resto en peaco

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    Hi, VirajVora:

    Your summary to me is a bit confusing. I understand, in some ways, what you are trying to say but I do think the grammar could be polished a little bit. Maybe English isn't your native language, and that's fine, but I just fixed stuff where I thought it had to be fixed.

    One day Villagers found that their votecount has been changed by Mafia players with some technology. They found who the Mafia were but their votecount was anywhere between -3 to +3. So Villagers went to Villager Elder who knows how to find the true votecount of players. However Village Elder had some memory issues and takes 24 hours to find their votecount. Will Village Elder help Village to defeat Mafia on time or will Mafia take control over the Village ? Best Of Luck... NEW PLAYERS PLEASE READ /TIPS SECTION... VirajVora...

    I fixed some grammar issues, and the end result was this:
    One peaceful day, in a small village, a group of villagers found that their votecount had been changed by Mafia players with some mysterious technology. They were able to identify the Mafia, but their vote count now varied anywhere between -3 to +3! The Villagers went to the Villager Elder, who knew the true votecount of each of the players. However, as he was growing older, the Village Elder developed some memory issues, meaning it took him up to 24 hours to remember the exact votecount of one person. Will the Village Elder be able to help the villagers defeat the Mafia on time, or will the Mafia take control of the village? Best Of Luck... | NEW PLAYERS PLEASE READ /TIPS SECTION |-VirajVora...

    Feel free to use the summary if you'd like. I didn't change the story or summary in any drastic way, I just fixed some grammar stuff. Good luck with your theme, and hopefully I can play it sometime soon.
     
  8. VirajVora

    VirajVora VirajVora...

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    Thank you so much... You solved the biggest issue I had... Updated with this new summary :)
     
  9. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    Can you update the roles so what they have "startup": { "revealAs": "villager" }, but have "Villager (#)" as their translation? Again, Dethy shows how to do this. The main benefit would be troubleshooting, as currently the read log only shows:

    (14:07:50) *** ::: ::: Log for Vote-themed mafia game ::: ::: ***
    (14:07:50) Players: Natalie (Villager), Miki Sayaka (Villager), Pain (Mafia)

    Edit: Here's what you would need to do with every role.

    Code (text):
    1.  
    2.         {
    3.             "role": "Villager(+1)",
    4.             "translation": "Villager(+1)",
    5.             "side": "village",
    6.             "help": "You are a normal citizen of Village. You have to defeat the revealed Mafia with the help of your vote. However your votecount was altered by Mafia. So you can have any votecount between -3 to +3. You have to vote safely in order to remove Mafia.",
    7.             "info": "Has Vote between -3 to 3.Sided with Village.",
    8.             "actions": {
    9.                 "inspect": {
    10.                     "revealAs": "Villager with +1 votecount"
    11.                 },
    12.         "startup": {
    13.           "revealAs": "TrueVillager(+1)"
    14.         },
    15.                 "vote": 1,
    16.                 "startup": {
    17.                     "revealRole": [
    18.                         "Mafia1",
    19.                         "Mafia2"
    20.                     ]
    21.                 },
    22.                 "initialCondition": {
    23.                     "curse": {
    24.                         "cursedRole": "TrueVillager(+1)",
    25.                         "curseCount": 1,
    26.                         "silentCurse": true
    27.                     }
    28.                 },
    29.                 "onlist": "Villager (+1)"
    30.             }
    31.         },
    32.  
    The 'translation' part needs to have the actual vote value. This is concealed to the player by the startup: revealAs function.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2015
  10. VirajVora

    VirajVora VirajVora...

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    Done and updated...
     
  11. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    You may need to balance spawns betters. I've seen games with 2 positive voters and 2 mafia, and even some with 2 positive and 3 mafia. Those are pratically guaranteed that Mafia will win unless Village strikes lucky and get a perfect vote right from D1.
    The reason for that is that at least 1 Positive Villager will die for each Mafia they lynch (considering mafia is not ridiculously stupid), so with number of Mafia = Number of Positive Villagers that count is way too tight. That can get even worse once Mafia gets kill2.

    Some people suggested /kill with a recharge, and someone even suggested Silent Vote. I don't know if those will actually work and which approach you think it's better, but the ideas are there for discussion.
     
  12. Fiery Espeon

    Fiery Espeon The fire never bothered me anyway ~

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    By someone, he means me. I also suggested a kill every 2 nights or a limited amount of charges.
    Don't think a silent vote will make a move that would make it more balanced, it's still up for discussion/consideration.
     
  13. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    Silent Vote won't make much difference in terms of gameplay. It would just be much more annoying to keep track of things because everyone would have to claim their votes.

    I'm less concerned with balance than with strategy. Knowing the mafia on startup removes the automatic suspense of the game, so there has to be something to balance it out by making it interesting in some other way. But, every time I've played this theme it's been straight-up a guessing game. You can increase your odds of guessing right based on vote patterns, but if you count correctly the skill cap is extremely low. I wish there was more private information available for everyone, on both sides.
     
  14. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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  15. VirajVora

    VirajVora VirajVora...

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    Ok, the major thing I find is that, every now and then Village chokes and Mafia wins... For starters, I would like to remove the Mafia's kill2 as they are still winning even without that...

    Second this is that villagers have only 1 positive voter and more amount of Mafia... So there is combination of 2 things I would like to do which will balance the game... (or so I suppose...)

    I will add a cap to max and min votes... When there is only 1 mafia in the game, the maximum and minimum vote a Villager can have is +1 and -1 respectively... Right now, its not so and even +2 vote villager comes in 1 mafia game... I will do same with others i.e. +2 and -2 cap for 2 mafia and +3 and -3 cap for 3 mafia...

    This thing will solve the issue where team was +3,0,-1,-2,Mafia,Mafia which will not happen again...

    Second thing I add which also solves the above issue which Rice Kirby's latest log had...

    In Spawn list, and at 5 villagers, the total votes of all positive Villagers and total votes of all negative villagers is 2 and -2 respectively...
    Similarly at 6, the total votes of all positive Villagers and total votes of all negative villagers is 3 and -3 respectively...
    And so on...

    Now I will change the max votes of positive and negative votes in 5 players to +3/-3, in 6/7/8 players to +4/-4, in 9 players to +5/-5, in 10 players to +6/-6, in 11 players to +7/-7 and at 12 players to +8/-8... Increased one at all...

    Now after making the above changes, lets see the possible spawn list at 8 players and 9 players respectively as an example...

    At 8 players, 2 mafia, 1 village elder and 5 villagers... The votes of 5 villagers in 8 player game can be,
    +2,+2,0,-2,-2
    +2,+2,-1,-1,-2
    +2,+1,+1,-2,-2
    And no other combination can be added in this spawn list due to the above to two rules...

    At 9 players, 3 mafia, 1 village elder and 5 villagers... The votes of 5 villages in 9 player game can be,
    +3,+2,0,-2,-3
    +3,+2,-1,-1,-3
    +3,+2,-1,-2,-2
    +3,+1,+1,-2,-3
    +2,+2,+1,-2,-3
    And no other combination can be added in this spawn list due to the above to two rules...

    Thus adding these two rules will change the balance hopefully and make it even...

    If issue stays I'll change it again to make it more balanced...

    For now gonna wait for QC and ask permission to change the 3 stuff...
    Remove extra kill of Mafia...
    Add 1 cap vote at one mafia and 2 cap vote at two mafia...
    Add +1 max and -1 min total votes of all Villagers in all players...
     
  16. VirajVora

    VirajVora VirajVora...

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  17. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    IMO, just make the changes. The theme is in a testing period anyway, so unless it's a big conceptual change, you should just test what you can while it lasts.
     
  18. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    Make changes at your discretion. We'll make suggestions and respond to your changes but ultimately the choices are up to you.

    I think the changes will help balance, but won't help strategy, which is what I'm more concerned with.
     
  19. VirajVora

    VirajVora VirajVora...

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    Well when I pmed Miki Sayaka on forums and said about this, Miki said that she would get on it... Then left and hasn't been online ever after that...

    So adding this for now... Please reply for any suggestions and mistakes...

    I added a Mafia Boss... Mafia Boss will be there in every role list and there will be maximum 1 Mafia Boss... Mafia Boss can Inspect/Fake Inspect every day which can be seen to everyone just like Moon in Zelda or Pen Kirby in Rotom... Also I am removing 2nd kill of Mafia...

    Earlier the whole theme and specially small games were only based on luck... This will give a twist to game and sometimes will need to trust Mafia for true inspect... This will be equally helpful for both sides... Village would always be confused in which is true inspect and which is false... On the other hand, Mafia will always have to take risk while doing a true inspect hoping Village don't take use of it on their side...

    Added and updated it for the moment... Thanks for Pangaea for such a suggestion...
     
  20. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    I've been busy, etc. Even LQC have lives from time to time.

    My concern is, most games can be won by exposing the + voters without giving a chance to the village. The increases the existing problem of the game completely relying on 1/2 ~ 1/3 of the village to win. Now the mafia have two shots per turn to find them: a kill, and an expose. If they expose a - then they can randomly guess again on the next kill. The problem is too much randomness. It's not like anyone can bluff their way through having a + vote, so all that the village can do is methodologically vote in groups to increase their chances of winning. But this is problematic, because at best they end up with a set % of winning that can't be increased or decreased.

    Village won't be confused if it's true or not, because why would you fake it, finding the + voters will basically end the game. Something more gimmicky is probably required to make the theme intriguing; otherwise, you could just make the Mafia hidden and work from there. (Giving them 0 votes or something.)

    If you play with the spawn, you could also put the /add command I told you about in. This would allow village to triangulate what their individual votes are based on the numbers their commands return. E.g., Villager (-2) + Villager (+1) = -1, Villager (-1) + Mafia (0) = -1. It would also make scum hunting possible (they're the only ones that return an addition identity property value). Mafia being hidden would allow them to make up ridiculous values to throw off the village (e.g., "I got -3 on [Name], we must both be negative!").
     
  21. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    I believe the idea is to make Villager believe someone with 0 or negative votes has positive votes, which would make them rely on that person during the voting phase.

    The thing is that even that tactic is hard to use correctly since 1) Mafia themselves will not know if they didn't fake someone with their actual role and 2) Village knowing that can be faked will most likely ignore it, which would make it the same as it is without Mafia Boss.
    Not that those are actual issues. I think something similar to that approach could work, but it may still need something else to create the mind games you want.
     
  22. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    I understand the idea, but the fact that Mafia have an even greater chance of finding + voters makes it ridiculously hard for the village to win. A single mislynch would do them in. Though this is already a problem. It's not the mafia that needs more information, it's the village that needs more "soft" information, and probably less "real" information.
     
    Fiery Espeon likes this.
  23. Pangaea

    Pangaea resto en peaco

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    The Mafia Boss can use this tactic in a few different ways:
    a) He can truthfully expose someone. This will allow him to find any positive voters and kill them off. You may say "well, why wouldn't he just do this?" Well, him exposing truthfully is also helpful towards the village, and can help them win as well. If they decide to believe him, then they may be able to coordinate a vote and be able to vote off a mafia member.

    b) Faking exposes. This would most likely be used in smaller games. Faking exposes can actually be useful if applied correctly. Making someone seem like they have a negative vote is a useful thing. Normally, when you find a villager with a negative vote, you have them vote for whomever the mafia is voting for. However, exposing someone as a negative voter would make the village paranoid. They wouldn't be able to safely vote for their teammates in order to save them, because the Mafia Boss could be lying. Fake-exposing people as having a negative vote could essentially keep a person from voting at all.

    However, I do think that the Mafia Boss should be removed in larger games. I only suggested him to appear until the Village Elder appeared (meaning only from 3 to 6 player games). However, it is completely up to you. My idea was to originally have the Mafia Boss be alone in every game, though.

    @Miki Sayaka
    Exposing villagers with + votes can actually help the village if they decide to believe that the Mafia Boss exposed truthfully, especially in small games, because in small games they can easily vote off the Mafia Boss. This is also why I believe fake-exposing with a negative vote could be useful because that is the main thing that throws the village for a loop. In the case where a villager is exposed as having a negative vote, they may have to not vote at all for that phase, because the Mafia could have fake-exposed that person. This means that the person who was exposed would not be able to safely vote for a teammate. Also, the Mafia Boss was added because small games were just guessing games. You also said you wanted strategy, which the Mafia Boss does bring.

    @RiceKirby
    I see fake-exposing finding more use in exposing someone for having a negative vote because as I stated above, it throws the village for a loop and begins to play mind games with them. Also, ignoring an expose would probably not be a good idea for village because the Mafia Boss could possibly be providing them some important information.
     
  24. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    The problem I see with this Mafia Boss is the same one I see with most Pen clones: they fail to understand how that role truly operates. Pen only works because it's not sided with anyone in specific. Because of that, there's no way to tell why the Pen would lie or why would they tell the truth, as they don't need to compromise with any side.

    Once you put a fake-exposer on a mafia side, those reasons are pretty much obvious, so there's absolutely no much to discuss regarding the exposer's intentions, which in turn makes the role lose most of its advantage. Yes, Mafia Boss could very well be telling the truth, but Village has no reason to blindly believe any expose unless they got further proof. As such, Village would most likely play the same as they do without the Boss around, since most of the time they will simply assume Boss is messing around with them to break their concentration.

    If I had to suggest something to improve that aspect, it would be to force in some way to have true exposes around too (either with Boss itself or with some other role), so village would be more inclined to pay attention to any expose.
     
  25. Fate Testarossa

    Fate Testarossa Unbreakable Bond

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    Agreeing with both, though I'm not exactly sure how to get the latter to work, but I had an idea or two that maybe you'd like to consider or discuss. You could limit the ability to fake expose to every other day (not sure if the same should be done regarding real exposes), so that if there is an expose every day, the village could at least have an idea that one of the exposes has to be true. The other idea was to give a small amount of daytime hax on the real (and maybe the fake) exposes, so there is a chance that a member of the village is able to confirm whether an expose is real or fake. Of course, this hax introduces a luck factor, so you may decide against it.
     
  26. VirajVora

    VirajVora VirajVora...

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    Well I can do your first suggestion EjayQuiz to make 1 in 2 day expose, but right now (before I made Expose changes) number of wins of Village > Mafia... Of course this win includes the previous changes I made i.e.
    Add 1 cap vote at one mafia and 2 cap vote at two mafia...
    Add +1 max and -1 min total votes of all Villagers in all players...

    This made Village wins greater than Mafia and game was Village sided... After adding expose I think this made a little mafia sided and I thought this might balance the game...

    I really disagree on points given by Whereabouts Unknown specially "The increases the existing problem of the game completely relying on 1/2 ~ 1/3 of the village to win." because lets consider a 2 mafia game... When 1 mafia is lynched around 2/3 villagers get to know their role... So negative voters can further help to save the villagers...

    So I guess I gonna wait sometime to see whether it becomes balanced or too mafia sided... If it gets too mafia sided I will make exposes once 2 days... We just gotta wait and see how it goes...
     
  27. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    You're missing the point. When 1 mafia is lynched, 2/3 villagers have their roles exposed. This makes it really easy for mafia to kill the positive voters. And the village is literally dependent on their survival, even though they comprise 1/3 ~ 1/2 of the population. It's really luck-based, and decreasing the playability imo. Otherwise the fake expose is a workable idea.

    I'm going to renew my review for this soon, not too much in depth since most of what I said before is still relevant, so I want to give you time to make nay final changes. Any way you could make it less dependent on a fraction of the villagers would be the best edit you can make imo.
     
  28. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    Creativity - Still 4/5, overall the text is decent, and it's an original concept.

    Cohesion - Up to 3/5. The elements mesh together well, the premise is simple. But there is a serious problem in that a majority of the roles being unable to even vote off the bad guys. I cannot stress how problematic this is. Otherwise the cohesion is fine.

    Craftsmanship/Balance/Tactics - Again, the fact that most of the village can't directly threaten the mafia without assistance from a positive voter (which may be revealed by an Expose or by a successful vote) is really problematic for balance. Furthermore, the vote phase is entirely luck based. Moreso than Vanilla, because in Vanilla there is human factor. In Vote, Simultaneously there is too much information (who the mafia are) and not enough information (what the votes are). I understand that it's the theme's gimmick, but there has to be more ways to bridge the gap to make mind games or creative tactics possible. Otherwise, it's just voting and hoping you have the right vote count. 2/5

    Course - Once again, even the Course is damaged by 1/3 ~ 1/2 of the roles comprising the winIfDead for the only mafia. The game can end ridiculously fast if a lynch goes bad, because it can end up backfiring and not only failing to lynch a mafia, but also expose the positive voters. On the other hand, pure luck has no counters, so the mafia might play their best and have no chance of winning. As for learning curve, it's not hard to learn, if anything it's too easy. 2/5.

    Concept doesn't need updating, 5/5.

    Total: 16/25
     
  29. VirajVora

    VirajVora VirajVora...

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    Ok Sorry I've been busy for the previous month... I have a few things in mind... So, major post coming up in a couple of days...
     
  30. VirajVora

    VirajVora VirajVora...

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    Oh I really forgot about this...

    Ok so, I discussed stuff with Whereabout Unknown and we came to conclusion that @Whereabouts Unknown is gonna be another author for this theme...

    As of now I am only going to update and make changes in author of theme adding Miki Sayaka's name to it... Update and stuff will come soon... (Sorry again for being late because life's a shit...)
     
  31. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    Voiding my own review for obvious reasons, so three more reviews are still needed. I'll do my best to co-author, please share your suggestions with me.
     
  32. Fiery Espeon

    Fiery Espeon The fire never bothered me anyway ~

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    Increasing Cohesion to 4/5.
    You have fixed most of your summary and messages for the most part. You have clearly worked on this to make this part of the theme better.

    Curve to 4/5:
    After playing it and going it through the game, it became easier for me to play and understand the theme better. Also, the addition of /tips also helps. New players would likely be able to quickly understand how the theme flows and how it works.
    New Total: 19/25
     
  33. HellobyexD

    HellobyexD New Member

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    Perspective
    Let's move this along...

    Creativity- 5/5
    This theme displays uniqueness in presenting a system where the mafia are revealed and can only be lynched by a small portion of the village. While it can be considered the compromise of Vanilla and Default, there is also an acceptable reason for why there is a change in votes which is the solid differentiation from the two themes.

    Cohesion- 4/5
    Most of the theme components blend together nicely. However, it seems Village Elder was added to make this game less luck-reliant (guessing your vote-count as villager). Village Elder added more order to the theme though the player can easily be killed which gets rid of the whole purpose. The Mafia Boss was a nice addition in order to be able to play mind games.

    Craftsmanship (Balance, Tactics)- 2/5
    Mafia has a clear advantage here. They have nothing to do but kill positive voters who are easily identified in the voting phase if somebody they never voted for got lynched. Village must guess what their votes are and act accordingly. There are not much tactics to be made considering the theme is so straightforward. The classic strategy of everyone all voting a revealed scum just doesn't work here. While all the mafia can do is hope that the positive voter mistook his own role, villagers are less likely to actually guess their vote power correctly. Village Elder was added to try to balance out the difference but mafia can use up one night of killing to restore the imbalance of the sides. Adding a bodyguard to guarantee the elder sustainability can also give the village more power to compete with the current mafia.

    Course (Learning Curve, Flow)- 4/5
    This clearly isn't a theme that you can suddenly join without knowing the rules like the RNG series. On the contrary, the role info given out to the villagers already tell them they have a random vote. The tips is more or less a complete theme guide which is not what it's supposed to be. Giving an optimal strategy for everyone to follow as a tip seems a bit boring and restrictive. The Mafia have almost no change from their usual job: kill people. Of course they have to make obvious kills on revealed positive voters but there's hardly anything new to learn for the mafia. The village will struggle as there is still not enough visible emphasis about not voting blindly. Putting the warnings in the role info under caps rather than the tips which just tells you how to play the entire theme might help out a bit.

    Concept- 5/5
    The reasons behind the theme make sense. The fact that you have to think in this theme contributes to the fun factor of the theme.

    Total: 20/25
     
  34. Shazan

    Shazan Obey to Kyubey

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    From what I understand the biggest problems are the bigger advantage of mafia and the lack of deep gameplay by the mafia players.
    I have 3 possible solutions on my mind but they are more of a draft then complete idea:
    1) Make the mafia players unable to know they partners from the begin and remove the broadcast from their shared kill, this way they will know their partner only when the village will vote them.
    Bonus: We will gain some deception, because the villagers can try to vote another villager to make the mafia think that they are their partner, so that player will not be randed by the mafia's /kill command.
    Malus: The situation will be reversed by the common mafia themes, where it is the mafia unable to know their partners.

    2)When a villager dies all the other villagers will converts again, so that the total vote power will be always 0;
    Bonus: It will be solved the problem where the mafia will target the positive voters which is the main motive why the village has hard time trying to win.
    Malus: Coding it is possible but difficult and probably doing it will require to remove the Spawn Pack feature.
    3)When a villager with positive vote dies all the villagers with less then +3 vote power will gain an extra +1 vote power and when a villager with negative vote power dies all the villagers with more then -3 vote power will gain +1 vote power;
    Bonus: Easier to code then the idea number 2, mafia has a good motive to kill negative voters, if too much positive voters dies some of the negative voters will become positive too unless mafia didn't kept a balance between how much positive and negative voters killed .
    Malus: Probably could cause confusion, as idea is nothing more then a draft and needs to be perfected, the village will lose their starting vote balance when they will start dyieing .

    3Bis)Adding a special villager which start with 0 vote power , knows to be a special villager and he adds an extra +1 vote power for every dead positive voter and an extra -1 vote power for every dead negative voters.
    P.S. The game doesn't reveal their current total vote power but they can guess it if they understand what type of villager died ;
    Bonus: Same Bonus of idea number 3 but whit less confusion and ubalancements .
    Malus: If the special villager dies then the villagers will have again the same problems of when there was no Special Villagers .

    Sadly i played only a few times this game so for now i am still unable to change my pre-trial phase judgement.
     
  35. Pangaea

    Pangaea resto en peaco

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    A /multiply command for the villagers could be a helpful way for finding votes of other players, and could also be more precise. A positive product either means positive x positive or negative x negative, negative vote is positive x negative, and 0 just means one of the two persons has a vote of 0. Just a suggestion.
     
  36. Fate Testarossa

    Fate Testarossa Unbreakable Bond

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  37. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    (11:16:44) ±QueryBot: virajvora was last seen: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 20:01:29 GMT [13 weeks, 2 days ago.]
    (11:16:51) ±QueryBot: black heart was last seen: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 20:00:58 GMT [13 weeks, 2 days ago.]

    I killed Vote and overwrote it with Vote2 because a) I'm a co-author and the original author is AWOL and b) tyranny, so @VirajVora if you ever come back and want the theme back, we'll have to discuss it then. For now I'll act as the author.
     
  38. Fate Testarossa

    Fate Testarossa Unbreakable Bond

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    Creativity
    There's no change I intend on making for this criteria's score, but I did want to mention that in addition to figuring out how to vote the mafia off, the village will need to figure out who the mafia are. This could make the theme less creative, but I have an idea as to why it doesn't, which will be discussed in the Craftsmanship section.
    Score: 4/5

    Cohesion

    The summary was cleaned up to be brief and concise regarding how the theme works.
    Score: 4/5

    Craftsmanship

    One of the problems with the older theme was how each time the village confirmed a positive voter (via a lynch), they would be killed off the next night by the mafia. This made it too difficult for the village to safely find positive voters as the mafia would learn everything the village learned. With the introduction of the /combine command, villagers can now figure out their own vote without having to rand and have a chance to figure out the mafia. Furthermore, with compulsory lynch added, villagers with negative votes can lynch the mafia. However, the mafia was also able to gain an advantage as well. Bussing is probably easier, and the mafia will need to coordinate kills better, as it is no longer a 'kill the person that voted off a mafia' strategy. Given what has just been said, mindgames are easily possible on both sides. The removal of the Village Elder means that each villager will need to rely on /combine for information, but also means they don't need to wait to be inspected (as well as not worry if the Village Elder is killed or lynched). There's a lot of "soft" information to work with (your vote when combined with another player's vote, reading who voted who when someone is lynched), and with careful thinking and attention to detail, it can become "hard" information (you figure out exactly what your vote is or what the votes of other players are, and who the mafia are).
    Score: 5/5

    Course

    I think the pace of this game will be improved since the mafia's second kill was removed. I wonder if the village is more likely to vote day 1 as anyone can lynch with the compulsory lynch or if they will wait a day to use the /combine information (depending on the size of the game). I initially wanted to judge this on some actual gameplay, but that hasn't been possible for a while. For the time being, I'll leave this score as is.
    Score: 4/5

    Concept

    I'm essentially repeating part of what I mentioned in Craftsmanship, but the amount of strategy and ways of handling the soft information going around is what makes this theme very exciting. The addition of compulsory lynch makes every villager feel valued, regardless of their vote. This also removes that luck-based factor of randing to find positive voters, only to have them die the next night. Coordination is necessary for either side to win, and there are a few ways to carry this out.
    Score:5/5

    Total: 22/25
     
  39. VirajVora

    VirajVora VirajVora...

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    Yes, you better take it for now... I wont be back for a long long time...