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Aegislash Suspect Discussion

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Discussion' started by Sinclair, Sep 19, 2014.

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  1. Sinclair

    Sinclair Call me the Pokemon Demigod

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    Discuss the possibility of Aegislash being banned from the XY OU tier. Use this thread to discuss Aegislash's effect on the metagame. Talk about the different sets it can use, good partners and potential checks/counters. State your opinion on whether you think Aegislash should be banned or if it should stay in the XY OU tier but make sure your posts are backed up by experience and knowledge. Anyone who makes post based on theorymon risks being infracted. This thread will be up for a minimum of two weeks.

    Important notes:
    -Stay on topic.
    -Post intelligently.
    -Make meaningful posts. If your post doesn't contain any content, it is prone to being deleted. For example, posts that agree/don't agree with a certain point without any justification or explanation.
     
  2. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    Hi, this is what I post in potential suspect discussion (editted out parts about mega-maw so it would fit this thread):
    still have the same opinion on the matter and believe it's broked, so yea reposting this is fine and sums up what i have to say
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2014
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  3. Scatterbrain

    Scatterbrain You only live once*

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    Main points (for both sides):

    Pros:
    150/150 attacking stats in Blade forme
    Gets Sacred Sword, ignoring any stat changes on the target's Defense stat (such as Baton Passed Iron Defense boosts from Scolipede)
    Ghost/Fighting provides unresisted coverage (aside from the nonexistent Ghost/Normal)
    Priority STAB move in Shadow Sneak
    Steel-typing provides good defensive prowess despite being nerfed, and hits Fairies like Sylveon pretty hard with Iron Head
    Immune to Normal and Fighting-type priority like Diggersby's Quick Attack, Dragonite's Extreme Speed, and Conkeldurr's Mach Punch
    Immunity to Poison status and moves, which is always good against stall
    King's Shield allows it to physically incapacitate some Pokemon, and sometimes even entire teams
    Can run Weakness Policy to get +2 from a SE attack

    Cons:
    Low HP and Speed
    Defensive capabilities reliant on status moves
    Physical variants can be burned by Will-O-Wisp (even behind King's Shield, because it doesn't protect from status)
    Extremely limited special movepool and no way of boosting it outside of Weakness Policy, practically forcing it to run at least one physical move)
    Lots of weaknesses to common moves like Fire-types (Talonflame's Flare Blitz), Ground-types (shoutout to Earthquake for not making contact), Dark-types (Knock Off users should be careful though), Ghost-types (other Aegislash and Gengar)

    I'll add more, feel free to elaborate
     
  4. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    Okay, we all know that Aegislash is not perfect. It has weaknesses, it is slow, it has no recovery. But Arceus isn't perfect either; nor is Kyogre or Mewtwo. Let's put that aside.

    Aegislash in OU is ridiculous. Putting it on your team allows you to check the half the meta with little opportunity cost. It generally revolves around Tank, SubToxic, LO 4 Attacks, and Swords Dance; okay, so I never really try to guessed what Aegislash set the opponent has, but the ability to run four sets extremely well with so little support while still checking half of the meta is not a good sign. However, I have seen the Smogon ban on Aegislash and have a good idea on what the PO metagame will look like if Aegislash is banned, so I would like to address some recurring ideas I have seen on an Aegislash ban:
    *Mega Pinsir, Heracross, Gardevoir, and Medicham are not going to be too overpowering if Aegislash leaves. The metagame can easily adapt to these Pokemon. Mega Gardevoir can easily be checked by Mega Scizor and Jirachi, the latter of which is only unviable because of Aegislash. Mega Medicham can easily be checked by a bulky Psychic of choice. Mega Heracross is checked easily by Unaware Clefable. Teams will become a lot more Mega Pinsir weak, now that it can run Close Combat > Earthquake to hit Rotom-W and Skarmory, but a competent player will not let Pinsir sweep its team.
    *Aegislash does not need recovery or a good base speed to be an unhealthy force in the metagame. The lack of recovery / low speed arguments could still be made even if Aegislash was moving between 255/255 offenses and 255/255 defenses with King's Shield. Thus, please do not make this argument.
    *We try to avoid banning moves, unless they are inherently broken, such as Swagger and Double Team. Therefore, banning King's Shield is not a good counterargument.
    *Banning Aegislash would allow a good amount of diversity into the metagame. Starmie, Celebi, and Jirachi in particular, three former OUs, would be really good if Aegislash was not everywhere. If you do not believe me, go to Smogon and ask about these three mons. But overall, a lot of Pokemon, like Terrakion, Conkeldurr, Mega Heracross / Gardevoir / Pinsir / Medicham have a free slot now that they do not have to worry about Aegislash WITHOUT BEING INHERENTLY BROKEN.

    With these factors in mind, I support banning Aegislash.

    Sinclair edit(don't double post)

    False. Aegislash learns both Swords Dance and Automotize. Also, Aegislash prefers a Leftovers or Life Orb instead of Weakness Policy, W.P. is unreliable and only works once.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 20, 2014
  5. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    I've already posted my thought in suspect discussion
    BUT

    I have reconsidered some things
    Aegislash's flaws still exist of course, but I came up to the conclusion that we can't only ban "broken" things just cuz they're broken (they must go of course), but we have to think to these following points:
    -1 Power of the mon itself -> Really good stats, god typing, KS, low hp, low speed, average stabs, shield reliability.. 8/10, surely good but we ain't goin to ban it cuz it's powerful... there are mons more POWERFUL that can run free (MegaPinsir, MegaHeracross, MegaGardevoir, Charizards..)
    -2 Support needed -> This is a point in favor to ban Aegislash.. It doesnt even need support! (In its main mixed pivot set), it can get past through almost everything dealing damages. It has counters yeah but it doesnt need particular mons to get its job done. It's a support mon to help many other getting their job done instead!
    -3 Utility in the metagame-> Well. This is the main point and it's so so so so relational to every player itself and its view of game. I mean, a lot of stuff can't be used due to Aegislash, and its utility is so big that gained to it a lot of usage, granting it the top 5 usage (before smogon ban). So if u find using all these mons "chained" by Aegi, u should think it's unhealthy, on the other hand u may think it's healthy cuz he balances the metagame. Do u prefer Aegimeta or Aegisless? I have tried both and I have found Aegisless meta better, though I don't think Aegislash is broken.

    So, at the end of this, I changed my mind about Aegislash and I think he should be banned, tho it isnt op as Mega Mawile, tho an Aegimeta is still runnable, tho it isn't unbeatable. Aegisless meta is just more funny ^o^
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2014
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  6. Khristophoros

    Khristophoros New Member

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    Actually, this is a solution which should be seriously considered. Normally we don't ban moves because many pokemon would be affected. The difference between King's Shield and other moves is that only Aegislash learns it.

    Why ban Geomancy instead of Xerneas? Same reason. And yes I know Smeargle. Beside the point.

    I won't bother to argue against the ban because A) I admit Aegislash is extremely annoying and I don't use it, and B) I'm pretty sure the ban is gonna happen regardless.
     
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  7. Fuzzysqurl

    Fuzzysqurl baa baa mareep I do what I want Server Owner Developer I do what I want Server Owner Developer

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    From my little time I actually dealt with Aegislash in OU before I stopped battling (aka, disregard my opinion if you want), and reading through the Smogon suspect thread back when that came out, I've come to the agreement that banning King Shield would be a better solution to start. You can always go back a week or two later and ban Aegislash if Kings Shield wasn't enough.

    Sure Aegis still can hit like a truck, but it can't be a tank too now. There's no Kings Shield "50/50" (as the Smogon buzzword was) anymore without Kings Shield being allowed. Aegis gets a nice switch-in boost being able to take a hit with 150/150 defenses, then can attack back with 150/150 offenses, but without Kings Shield, Aegis loses a large part of the reason why it is getting suspected and a major point in all pro-ban arguments is completely removed.

    Its ability becomes useless after the first turn and can't abuse increasing defenses easily to soak hits except on the initial switch in. It's like a whole new pokemon without King's shield. You can hit pretty hard, but without Kings Shield and Stance Change, you won't be able to soak up damage like before and eventually end up fainting.

    Further more, new counters/checks can show up because they no longer fear getting -2'd by King Shield. Mega Absol could be a check for Aegislash, for example. Viable in OU, you still get KO'd by Sacred Sword, but you can outspeed and OHKO with Knock off without having to worry about Kings Shield. Maybe it will jump from UU to OU, who knows.

    Let's stray from the "pack" (aka Smogon) and try a King Shield suspect first maybe. Without that, I agree that Aegislash is a bit too powerful for OU and turns predicting into a whole game of WIFOM, with the user of Aegislash pretty much always having the advantage. No KS might deal enough of a blow to Aegis to drop it back down to manageable levels.
     
  8. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    Even without King's Shield, Aegislash contains so much raw offenses in its Blade forme that it is not funny. You have to be really smart when playing Aegislash without King's Shield, but banning King's Shield is just taking the shortcut around the real problem.
     
  9. Khristophoros

    Khristophoros New Member

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    I am doubtful that banning King's Shield would greatly impact Aegislash's presence in the meta, but as Fuzzysqurl said we can always ban the pokemon itself later on if that doesn't work. That's why I suggested that this solution should be considered.

    However, I think removing his ability to revert back to Shield Forme would help bring him under control by focusing on his strength as a glass cannon pokemon and taking away his unneeded ability to go into a defensive mode. If we could have done something like this to reduce the unpredictability/versatility of Genesect don't you think we would have instead of banning it? The pokemon would still have a big presence in the meta due to its main strengths being intact but it would support itself less and require more team support and better play by its user.
     
  10. dayum son

    dayum son New Member

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    Plenty of things hit much, much harder. Without KS, Aegis would be a great deal easier to revenge kill, and it wouldn't have the ability to bullshit its way through situations where any other pokemon would need to switch out or sacrifice itself.

    Though on the other hand, banning KS instead of Aegis itself really feels akin to banning Sacred Fire instead of Ho-Oh.
     
  11. [OG] Swanna Lady

    [OG] Swanna Lady Y.......Yo......You.....YOU'RE FAT!

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    I honestly think Aegislash shouldn't be banned. It's main source of power comes from it's attack stat, which means any pokemon with burning moves can easily kill it's attack stat as kings shield doesn't block status moves. Also, earthquake can hit it hard especially if you have a normal type faster than Aegi (As shadow sneak wouldn't effect it) and earthquake doesn't do contact so no worry for kings shield. If Aegi is a special set then there are a whole lot of special defenders in OU (aka Vaporeon, Blissey and Chansey with eviolite)
    Hippowdon would also be a great counter to the physical set and Swords Dance will make Aegi vulnerable for that turn.
    It's ability is where it's Downfall really is. If anything walls Aegi then it will stay in Sword form therefore making it vulnerable to any attacks, and given Sword form's terrible defenses it will probably die.

    To sum it up, Aegislash has too many counters which shapes my opinion for it NOT being banned.
     
  12. sulcata

    sulcata cory is #1 bae Tier Leader Server Administrator Tier Leader Server Administrator

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    King's Shield itself isn't really inherently broken. If it was on say, Smeargle or Swampert, people would have no issues dealing with it as these Pokemon would be prone to status effects and set up sweepers. The problem of King's Shield and Aegislash is that due to its immunities and ability to run mixed offenses, status generally won't have a huge impact on the commonly run sets with Shadow Ball. Not only that, nuclear 150 attacking stats make almost any set up an extremely risky gamble as opposed to a safe option. In fact, attacking could be a very risky option as well as it could give the Aegislash user a green light to start firing off Shadow Balls for little to no consequence to itself.

    Comparisons drawn to a newly transitioning ban list to metagame and attempting to use it as a precedent is really not a good idea, especially when no final decisions have been made yet on whether or not to ban Geomancy (it's a test ban at the moment). Ubers is also just a tinge different in that it is/should be trying to avoid banning Pokemon at all costs due to its perceived status as an "any Pokemon is allowed" metagame, which is why a Geomancy suspect was more well received.

    Someone mentioned that Swords Dance makes Aegislash vulnerable. I don't know if they meant that it'd give the opponent a free turn or if they meant it'd put Aegislash in blade form. Aegislash only goes into blade form when it uses an attacking move, not a set up move. Hippo also doesn't like to switch into Aegislash's most commonly run mixed set and the less commonly run SubToxic set, which makes it hardly a counter.

    Amazing typing, tanking almost all non-STAB EQs in shield form, and hitting like a small nuke would be why I think it should be banned. There's so few downsides to adding it to almost any balanced or offensive team that it seems foolish to not run Aegislash.

    P.S.: Stop talking about SDSlash please, it's generally very weak and bad compared to the sets that make it broken :(
     
  13. [OG] Swanna Lady

    [OG] Swanna Lady Y.......Yo......You.....YOU'RE FAT!

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    Yeah I meant it would give the opponent a free turn. Sorry the only Aegislash set I've ever really encountered is Swords Dance/Sacred Sword/Shadow Sneak/Kings shield. Hippo has great physical Bulk and if you switch into it after you have just had a special defender in it would give you a nice switch in. Hippo could probably take at least 1 special move giving it enough time to EQ the Aegi.
     
  14. sulcata

    sulcata cory is #1 bae Tier Leader Server Administrator Tier Leader Server Administrator

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    252+ SpAtk Spooky Plate Aegislash-B Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP/252 SpDef Hippowdon: 186 - 220 (44.3 - 52.4%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO

    If for some reason you run max Special Defense Hippowdon, you have a 73% chance of being able to take a Shadow Ball from the standard mixed Aegislash after factoring in the 10% chance to drop your Special Defense. Full Special Defense Hippo also seems like it'd be really bad in that it needs all the Defense it can get in the current metagame, but I've never tried it personally. Quiet Aegislash still outspeeds Hippo by the way.

    Shadow Ball/Sacred Sword/Shadow Sneak/King's Shield is the most common/versatile set if I recall correctly by the way.
    Aegislash (F) @ Spooky Plate
    Trait: Stance Change
    EVs: 232 HP / 24 Atk / 252 SAtk
    Quiet Nature (+SAtk, -Spd)
    - Shadow Ball
    - Sacred Sword
    - Shadow Sneak
    - King's Shield
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2014
  15. Khristophoros

    Khristophoros New Member

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    I don't think that's really the problem. There are plenty of moves which are good against Aegislash which avoid the -2 attack trigger from King's Shield. What really matters is that Aegislash switches to Shield Forme when he uses King's Shield. Suddenly his defenses are 150/150. Even if he's running a moveset that only has attacks + KS, that allows him to reset to Shield Forme and then switch out so that he's ready to switch in with the defenses later.

    I'm not trying to argue in favor of banning but I want to point out that the special set is very difficult to defend against because it has Secret Sword which kills normal types including Blissey/Chansey.
     
  16. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 334-394 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 246-290 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Okay, Blissey is 2HKOd, the problem is that neither of the blobs can do much to Aegislash. Chansey cannot do squat to Aegislash, Blissey is undersped by Quiet Aegislash and cannot even do 70% to its Blade forme with Flamethrower, nor can it do at least 30% onto the Shield forme. The blobs could not even beat Aegislash if it lacked Sacred Sword, because it could just PP stall their recovery with Iron Head + King's Shield.
     
  17. Sinclair

    Sinclair Call me the Pokemon Demigod

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    Meaning, stay on topic of the original post and discuss banning Aegislash, not Kings Shield
    It's fine to use the move as a part of your argument, but the topic of discussion is the pokemon Aegislash not the move Kings Shield
     
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  18. Khristophoros

    Khristophoros New Member

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    Hmm ok lemme try this.

    Although it is a problematic pokemon in OU, it's not because of lack of counters/checks. It's because of too much versatility. Multiple movesets that do not sacrifice enough. However, it is a pokemon with a signature move which gives us the potential to limit its versatility rather than outright ban it. Because of that I believe an outright ban is excessive. My opinion is that Aegislash should not be banned.
     
  19. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    I've been doing some suspects posts lately and I try to keep civil but this is by far the worst I've seen so far.

    Here we have an example of, in your mind:
    1. a broken Pokémon
    2. a broken move
    You are obviously new, because you believe it's a possibility that King's Shield will get banned. Let's make it even more clear than what Sinclair did: There is no chance of a possible King's Shield suspect or ban. Moves aren't suspected on PO unless they're absurdly, ridiculously broken (Geomancy) or cause a dramatic rise in coinflips (Swagger). OK, you want a suspect of King's Shield but believe me, this is not happening. We're not banning single moves to make certain Pokémon OU legal - Skymin without Seed Flare might be OU material by the same idea, or maybe Reshiram without Blue Flare, what do I kn0w? But I hope you see what I'm getting at - customizing move sets of individual Pokémon to get them legal in OU creates a ridiculous tier and suspect environment.

    But what's the most absurd notion in this scenario is that despite believing that Aegislash is broken - since it has King's Shield, which you argue is broken, Aegislash is broken by definition - you vote against a ban for Aegislash simply because you're too high on your unrealistic idea of suspecting King's Shield. This is flat out idiocy.

    I'll just make it clear again:
    Aegislash is getting suspected here and now, it's not getting canceled, and King's Shield is not getting suspected ever.

    Also Aegislash is broken due to versatility as has been noted by everyone who has ever seen it above 1200 on the ladder. If you have only seen one set, chances are you haven't been touching the higher parts of the metagame.
     
  20. Khristophoros

    Khristophoros New Member

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    Your words, not mine.

    I do not believe he's broken. I said he's problematic.

    By the way since you mentioned ladder rank, I'm currently at 1388 as of this post. I don't use Aegislash, I don't have problems beating teams that use him but I do admit that he is somewhat problematic compared to most of the other strong OU threats.

    Also I must clarify this... I have seen all the sets. I started to almost always see the special set as I got a higher rank. I have seen the other sets. I used to see the SD set all the time.

    And even if there's no chance of KS being suspected I have to be honest about my opinion. I think it would be excessive to ban him.

    BTW I only proposed the KS suspect as an option in the event that Aegislash is not banned. I never suggested canceling the Aegislash suspect discussion.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2014
  21. Axily

    Axily PO chick

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    His unpredictables sets and his 150 base stat that can change quickly with King's shield made this mon a big threath for the ou metagame. It resists to stealth rocks, and his peculiar move creates a lot of 50/50 with his stats switches between attacks and defences.

    There are a lot of sets. This are the most common:
    -Swords Dance (specially in early XY)
    -Life orb 4 attacks
    -Air Baloon anti-spinner
    -Mixed Pivot (that becomes unbeatable with Weakness Policy)
    -Sub toxic

    With the steel nerf in this gen Ghost type is really cheap to use in this meta. The resistors are only normal and dark types, that are both hit by his sacred sword.
    Chansey and Blissey are forced to switchout. With the steel/ghost type the pink eggs can't use toxic or hit with seismic toss.

    Now i wanna post some calcs with his most common checks, that are few...

    And even if u wanna use use sucker punch with Bisharp...
    252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 198-234 (61.1 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 257-304 (79.3 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    you are going to die with sacred sword. Even if u can use knock off thanks to defiant, aegi max speed outspeeds it.

    Now we can try Mandibuzz. The bone-bird is his best counter.
    (4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 71-84 (16.7 - 19.8%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
    4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 94-112 (22.2 - 26.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery)
    His foul play is terrible for the blade, but the sub toxic set walls it, 'cause if aegi is generally specially defensive the ivs in atk are 0. So:
    0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 66-78 (20.3 - 24%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery.

    An underrated poké as Umbreon? Same problems as mandi with the sub toxic set. Even if it "resists" to sacred sword:
    4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 170-202 (43.1 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Sableye can burn it, but...
    252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 151-178 (49.6 - 58.5%) -- 68% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    The blade can stall his recover pp, and sableye is too weak to a lot of pokes in ou, so it isn't a good check.

    They have already metioned Specially defensive Hippowdon, but the Air Baloon anti-excadrill set can create some troubles.

    Assault vest Azumarill? This water bunny this time can be considered a check. Even if it hax knock off... It is stopped by king's shield.
    Here some calcs:
    4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 148-175 (42.8 - 50.7%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
    252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 99-117 (28.6 - 33.9%) -- 0.7% chance to 3HKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 129-152 (37.3 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 446-526 (137.6 - 162.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    -2 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 224-264 (69.1 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery.

    Specially defensive venusaur is a good check, but HP fire/ Earthquake aren't so poweful, even on the blade form.
    0 SpA Mega Venusaur Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 178-210 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    0 Atk Mega Venusaur Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 248-294 (76.5 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Keldeo (specs) can shot it with scald.
    252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 226-266 (69.9 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    4 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 87-105 (26.9 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

    Heatran can check it and use lava plume but ....
    4 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 229-270 (59.4 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 152-182 (46.9 - 56.1%) -- 27% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.

    Without needing any particular support in the teams it can win alone a lot of matches. I think that Aegislash should be banned from OU.
     
  22. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    Nobody is even mentioning how pretty much every team has to have a way around at least 2 of 3 of the Aegislash sets, or else they are going to have a hard time around it. Just compare Aegislash to Keldeo and Charizard for a second. Keldeo has universal checks, such as Azumarill, Latias that can check almost every set. Charizard is universally checked by Azuamrill and Heatran. Aegislash is not universally checked by anything because it can get past every single of its check very effortlessly. However, I will admit that I never give Aegislash much thought when teambuilding.
     
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  23. Khristophoros

    Khristophoros New Member

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    I think the main reasons Aegislash was suspected were 1) People say he centralizes the meta because they're forced to bring certain pokemon and/or moves, and 2) unpredictable because each of his movesets do a lot without giving up much. Those are valid complaints in my opinion but not enough to ban it. I could make the same complaints about other pokemon that nobody seems to care about.

    Keldeo may have some universal checks but there aren't that many and his offensive coverage is very good. I don't have a good way to deal with Keldeo because I'd have to give up other things on my team to bring those pokemon. But I don't complain about it.

    As for whether or not Aegislash has universal checks, well I can't think of a single Aegislash set that Charizard Y cares about.

    And in general Aegislash can't afford to switch into neutral moves very much because he lacks recovery.
    I believe your analysis is skewed because for Foul Play you've only considered Shield Forme's stats. In actual practice I've found that Foul Play is one of the best moves against Aegislash. The sub/toxic set is the only set that can sit in shield forme and tank Foul Play. So you can't spin it like Aegislash is going to have all this offense, but once Mandibuzz comes in now it's the sub/toxic set. A pokemon can only run one moveset per match.
     
  24. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    So basically, being so overcentralizing to the point where you need 3-4 checks to Aegislash just so you have a safe response strategy to it, and every offensive Pokemon needing a move to hit Aegislash or they outright lose to it is not bannable whatsoever?
     
  25. Axily

    Axily PO chick

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    I've considered foul play with a sub toxic set that can wall and contrast the use of foul play. Foul Play is one of the best things that can stop aegislash with offensive sets, but use it with all defensive mons (mandi, sableye etc.)
    Aegislash has a little advantage with HO teams and can check a lot of sweepers, specially whit king's shield drop, that helps a lot in this basically phisical meta.

    @Celebi. , we have only differents points of view. But the idea that nothing can counter it completely and few things can shot it is a bit sad for me.
     
  26. mibuchiha

    mibuchiha Was yea ra chs ieeya.

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    I honestly don't understand how can you say Aegislash is the problem, not King's Shield when that is the very move it uses to switch forms, which makes it so deadly that you guys are suspecting it.

    It's really not just the 50/50 or potential -2. It's also about allowing it to take hits with a new set of stats. Without this freedom, Aegislash is not as good as it needs to switch out to regain its tanking abilities, which means exposing other mons to damage etc.
     
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  27. Sinclair

    Sinclair Call me the Pokemon Demigod

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    So, allow me to touch up on something here. Suspecting Kings Shield and potentially banning it in order to make Aegislash more manageable is like complex banning in order to make a pokemon OU viable by altering it's moveset. We are not going to alter movesets in order to make a potentially broken pokemon usable in OU. It would be similar if we said "ban swords dance/Nasty plot" on Mega Lucario to allow it to stay in OU, or testing Kyogre in OU by saying that it will be allowed if we banned all Water type moves on it.
    Kings Shield is a part of Aegislash's moveset and it's as simple as that. Kings Shield will not be suspected separately and should be looked at as a tool that only Aegislash can abuse.
     
  28. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Lol ban King's Shield... the real problem is evidently Stance Change. Ban the ability and give Aegislash inner focus or smthn.
     
  29. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    If one Pokemon:
    • makes a lot of other Pokemon unviable (Terrakion, MegaCross, MegaCham),
    • restricts the use of certain moves on Pokemon (EQ is sort of a must on Mega Pinsir)
    • has a couple of good sets it can run with different "counters"
    • checks a large part of the metagame
    • threatens the metagame both offensively (with a very spammy Shadow Ball coming off a great SpAtk) and defensively (great typing + King's Shield)
    It is obviously overcentralizing. Ban would be the most logical thing.
     
  30. SilentYoshi

    SilentYoshi Future Pokemon Master

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    Aegislash is a regular strong pokemon, it can run 3 sets, first is the SD set, it has aegi try to set up a swords dance to sweep teams, another set is Toxic+Sub which almost nobody uses, the last set is the most common set which is:
    Sacred Sword
    Shadow Sneak
    Shadow Ball
    King's Shield

    Good moves with amazing stallbreaking abilities, it has base 150 def and sp.def in shield form and 150 base atk and sp.atk in blade form, however aegi is very frail in blade form and lacks recovery making it more frail, aegi also can get beat or take a lot of damage by almost any pokemon with earthquake, such as garchomp and landorus T, it's main move is king's shield which can't block status moves allowing a burn or paralysis to come it's way, I vote NO BAN...
     
  31. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    Of course Aegislash loses to Earthquake users. Arceus-Normal loses to bulky Fighting-types and Terrakion too. Aegislash isn' t perfect, but it doesn't need to be perfect to be an unhealthy force in the metagame. Also, be realistic; you are not switching Aegislash into Garchomp or Landorus-T, and you are not switching Arceus-Normal into a Fighting type either (I am assuming Arceus-Normal to make a point here, pay attention to it) You also do not switch any Pokemon into anything, so be smart and not switch Aegislash into most burn or paralysis inducers. When do you switch Aegislash into Rotom-W or Heatran? I warned about this type of argument during the Mega Mawile suspect, I should have done it again for this suspect.
     
  32. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    Aegislash is NOT frail. Amazing 50/150/150 defenses + an even better typing are God-like on a poke that can deal a ton of damage. Combined with King's Shield an its ability to generate "free turns", it's actually very easy to grt HP back just using lefties.
     
  33. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    6.125% leftovers recovery is honestly really small and minimal. Furthermore even resisted attacks will do much more than that puny leftovers recovery, but that's besides the point.

    I think Aegislash is broken because of a couple of reasons, firstly because it is so versatile and has options to deal with its common switch-ins, meaning that there isn't a universal counter to all of its sets. Secondly, Aegislash's typing, stats distribution and amazing ability just makes it so much larger of a threat. Thirdly, because it forces a huge unhealthy amount of 50/50s. Lastly, Aegislash is by far the most overcentralising pokemon the metagame has seen, no other pokemon's presence influenced the metagame such that many otherwise solid pokemon dropped tremendously in usage and even went to UU.

    It's such an irony that most users when XY came out everyone immediately went to abuse SD Aegislash despite being good on paper but terrible in practice. Aegislash's movepool is fairly diverse, however it has all the tools it needs to make a huge impact and also make multiple sets which deals with different switch-ins. This is further amplified when you factor in its great distribution of stats and an amazing ability, and makes Aegislash an offensive powerhouse and a very strong offensive pivot. Shadow Ball coming from 150 base special attack is just so fucking strong, especially when you factor in only dark-types resist it and normals are immune to it, and anything else that doesn't resist it will take a huge chunk of damage which severely limits the amount of things that want to switch into it. Any defensive switch-in like Mandibuzz/Hippowdon is beaten by SubToxic varients. Aegislash is a very flexible pokemon, you can even run Air Balloon/Shuca Berry + HP Ice to deal with its checks like Landorus-T/Garchomp. Of late, Air Balloon is being widely used so that it can switch into Excadrill and prevent it from Rapid spinning or doing heavy damage to Aegislash. The use of Sacred Sword also limits dark/normals from sponging Shadow Ball and does a metric ton to them.

    Aegislash also forces so many 50/50s, the first would be deciding which set Aegislash would be running on a team. You honestly can't accurately judge Aegislash's set based on your opponent's team, you could still end up switching in on the wrong set and losing a pokemon because of it. I honestly see a lot of Genesect in Aegislash, both have unrivaled power, but its true strength lies in being unpredictable and being able to beat switch-ins with a different set. Aegislash's set however aren't completely different or completely from the opposite spectrum unlike Genesect, but it is still noteworthy that you can't blindly switch a Mandibuzz into an Aegislash packing Head Smash. King's Shield further alleviates the problem, and usually King's Shield is significantly in the favour of the Aegislash user. King's Shield makes it impossible to trap with Pursuit except Bisharp, except you force YET another 50/50 to go for either Knock Off or Pursuit. If you go for Knock Off as Aegislash switches out, you couldn't kill Aegislash. If you go for Pursuit as Aegislash doesn't switch out, you just lost Bisharp to Sacred Sword. Sure you can also nail the Aegislash by hitting it on the switch or going for Knock Off as it stays in, but as I said, its a 50/50, its a coinflip. 50/50s are in general unhealthy because it gives the "weaker and less skilled" player an equal chance to beat the "better" player, despite obviously the "better and more skilled" player should be winning the game. Aegislash's amazing bulk also forces you to hit Aegislash with either a very strong SE attack or at least 1/2 very strong choiced attacks. The problem with choiced pokemon vs Aegislash is King's Shield scouts what the choice pokemon locks itself into. Losing the 50/50 is usually not as harmful to the Aegislash player as the opponent unless they use it against a set-up user which is still fairly easy to pick out from the team preview itself. King's Shield is a factor which makes it unfair to the opponent, and just makes Aegislash harder to kill.

    Aegislash is probably the reason why pokemon like Mega Gardevoir/Mega Medicham/Mega Heracross/Starmie/Terrakion (I probably forgot some) still aren't being used in the first place. Aegislash was literally everywhere in the first stage of the XY meta and this caused the aforementioned pokemon to dip drastically in usage because of Aegislash's usage alone, and hence they went to UU despite being otherwise very viable and strong pokemon in OU. I'm going to make a comparison to Smogon's OU, bulky Starmie (Reflect Type/Recover/Rapid Spin/Scald) is currently their most used rapid spinner after Aegislash and Mega Mawile was banned, and this simply shows that Aegislash's presence alone caused Starmie to not see much use in OU despite being a very viable spinner but its inability to get past Aegislash meant it can't fulfull its spinning duties well. Because of Aegislash, we also have to run worse off options just to be able to do a decent chunk of damage to Aegislash. Take for example Earthquake on Mega Pinsir and Dark Pulse on Greninja. Earthquake on Mega Pinsir is greatly overshadowed by Close Combat because running Earthquake means you can't touch Skarmory or Rotom-W (assuming Pinsir has already mega evolved). However, Earthquake is still a standard on Mega Pinsir currently on PO because of Aegislash, and the only use of running Earthquake outside of Aegislash is 1hkoing Heatran, while only Close Combat can 2hko it. Is it really worth the trade off when +2 Close Combat does a huge ton to Skarmory, nearly 1HKOes Rotom-W with a small bit of damage and also 1HKOes Heatran? Using Earthquake just to hit Aegislash isn't just limited to Mega Pinsir so that it doesn't activate King's Shield js. Dark Pulse on Greninja is also vastly inferior without Aegislash since Greninja definitely wants HP Fire for Ferrothorn, Extrasensory for Keldeo/Mega Venusaur/to a certain extent Toxicroak, HP Grass/Grass Knot for Rotom-W/Mega Gyarados/Slowbro/Alomomola/Suicune. Aegislash has a negative influence in the tier as we end up having to use worse moves and otherwise very viable pokemon don't get to see much usage in OU because it is simply walled by Aegislash. If a pokemon can influence things such as running inferior sets to accomodate its presence, I think that alone is enough to warrant a ban.


    tl;dr ban

    I've yet to see a good anti-ban argument :x
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2014
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  34. SilentYoshi

    SilentYoshi Future Pokemon Master

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    I meant in it's blade form it's frail.
     
  35. JinLong88

    JinLong88 Golden Dragon

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    I'm against banning Aegislash and below is why in three parts (really not that much to read):
    Part 1
    I'm seeing some unfair justification in the posts above:
    on one hand, people are listing all the reasons why pokes can't switch into Aegislash,
    but on the other hand saying what Aegislash has difficulty switching into is irrelevant.

    I disagree. How Aegislash fares against incoming offense and offensive tactics is totally relevant.
    It's not just how Aegi affects the metagame, but also how the metagame affects Aegi.
    Seems that too many are forgetting that evaluating a poke follows a two-way street.

    Just because a Pokemon has no true defensive counters, does not mean that it is broken.
    It's just as important to consider the metagame's offensive effects on Aegislash.
    Aegislash is more or less a wallbreaker, that depends on maintaining bulk to make up for it's lack of speed.

    With a metagame that is more offensive than past gens; constant pressure, momentum, and double switching by strong offense teams are more common than ever.
    Offensive coverage in OU is varied enough that Aegislash's dependence on maintaining bulk is often under pressure.
    I'd argue that Aegi's need to maintain bulk, is often under pressure more than other top pokes with awesome offensive coverage.

    Why? Because Aegislash is relatively slow, and dependent on King's Shield and Stance Change.
    Which means while it has an awesome combination of offense and bulk,
    it's also vulnerable to the weaknesses of KS/SC.

    Part 2
    Here are the offensive attacking moves that Aegi won't like to switch into, and/or stay into:
    - Obvious stab earthquake coming from both Landorus', Garchomp, Excadrill, Gliscor, and Mamoswine
    - Obvious flare blitz/flamethrower from Talonflame/Charizard
    - Coverage earthquake from Tyranitar, Pinsir, Gyarados, Dragonite, Heracross, Terrakion, and Conkeldurr
    - Obvious special moves it's weak to, coming from Greninja, Heatran, Gengar, and other Aegi
    - Thunderbolt and Hydro Pump from LO Thundurus and Keldeo
    - Knock off from Bisharp, Scizor, Thundurus, Azumarill, and Conkeldurr
    - Sucker punch when Aegi does not have substitute
    - Foul play from Mandibuzz, Umbreon, and Amoonguss
    - Less common but not rare coverage moves such as Fire Punch from Medicham, Flamethrower from Manectric, Earth Power from Kyruem-B, and Shadow Ball from Alakazam/Gardevoir

    Here are other tactics that Aegi won't like:
    - Setup moves that take advantage of KS/SC dependence
    - Will-o-Wisp from Talonflame, Rotom-W, Bulky Charizard X, Sableye
    - Potential scald burns from Keldeo, Quagsire, Suicune, and Vaporeon
    - Leech seed from Venusaur, Ferrothorn, and defensive Breloom
    - Substitute users that can absorb a hit and put Aegi into blade forme
    - Combination of momentum-preserving VoltTurn and above moves/tactics
    - Less common: incoming taunt. Puts it in risky position, due to inability to Shield after attacking

    (Note: Substitute is an amazing move on Aegi because it protects from the tactics above, and future double switches.
    However, sub Aegi loses priority and a coverage move for Fairies or Darks,
    and also Aegi can't really afford to have both sub and an offense-boosting item)

    Part 3
    Three points:

    1. Most of the pokes, moves, and tactics listed above are effective against a wide array of pokes in OU, so I don't think Aegislash is overcentralizing offense teams.

    2. Aegislash's lack of speed is both a blessing and a curse. It allows it to tank hits due to SC, but it also makes it more susceptible to a larger list of offensive tactics. While it has wide offensive coverage, the lack of speed is what puts it in a offensive level below from past pokes such as Deoxys-S and Genesect.

    Having great coverage, those pokes also had the speed and/or revenge killing capabilities to have another turn to make up for their own or team's mispredictions. While they couldn't switch into moves like Aegi does, due to their lack of resistances and bulk, they also had the speed to worry less about pokes that outspeed them and especially indirect damaging tactics.

    3. I would guess that many players are too quick to use Defog with the most common hazard-remover: [email protected] Of course, this has probably given many Aegi a free switch-in, which might be a considerable factor in the suspect being brought up. But having a free switch-in doesn't mean Aegi is broken, since many of [email protected] teammates can employ the tactics I listed above while likely still threatening Aegi's teammates. Thus the user of [email protected] can and should double-switch effectively.

    ------

    My last point, and yes a semi-relevant one: "Sometimes the best defense is strong offense."
    This statement applies especially to techniques for checking Aegislash and mixed attackers, since their natures threaten the traditionally defensive way of Pokemon battling.

    Personally I feel that there needs to be more open-minded questions and discussions about battling styles. Instead of only thinking, "what 1 or 2 pokes can I put on my team to wall this offensive Pokemon X", perhaps it would be a good exercise to think "how I can vary my offensive tactics to put momentum on my side, and take advantage of slower pokemon and their dependencies?"

    Many pokemon in OU are vulnerable to Aegislash's onslaught and often struggle to break it's bulk.
    But at the same time, coming from top pokes in OU are a combination of common Ground/Fire/Dark/Ghost moves, outspeeding, and varied means of indirect damage that overwhelm Aegi, unless it sacrifices offensive coverage/power for defensive support.

    For this reason and the ones above, I'll point out one more obvious thing:
    I'm against the ban of Aegislash from the OU tier

    Thanks for reading -- JinLong
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2014
  36. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt. Tier Leader Server Administrator Tier Leader Server Administrator

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    I think a lot of people are failing to realise Aegi has much more of a field day against offense teams than bulky teams. Bulky teams can pack pokemon that aren't 2HKOed by most Aegislash sets like Clefable, Mega Venusaur, Mandibuzz. Offense doesn't have such options - as soon as Aegislash is out in play something dies, and usually Aegislash has the option of coming in and out of play. This really isn't about "oh no my wall can't beat it". Most pokemon that have the option of getting around Kings Shield also can't switch in on a Shadow Ball.

    Anyway I'll probably make a better post detailing my thoughts later but I'm strongly pro-ban on Aegislash in OU. It's incredibly limiting to the tier as a whole and has little to no actual switch ins, it's incredibly versatile and easily takes advantage of bluffing its different sets as well as the Kings Shield mind games. Sub Aegislash is an absolute menace and almost impossible to handle for any playstyle, standard mixed wrecks most of the tier, Weakness Policy sets sweep with near-impunity because you need an SE move to even 2hko it and it has priority to back it up, LO pursuit sets are great too, even the reviled SD set is actually good, just outshone by most of the other sets in most circumstances. Aegislash is a detriment to the tier, limiting the usage of otherwise good pokemon simply by virtue of teams having to put more effort into checking it than any other pokemon, and even teams with multiple checks can be broken through with relative ease. It needs to go.
     
  37. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    The problem with your Part 2 statement is that a lot of Pokemon like "Tyranitar, Pinsir, Gyarados, Dragonite, Heracross, Terrakion, and Conkeldurr" carry Earthquake just for Aegislash, only Gyarados, Dragonite, and Tyranitar would need Earthquake outside of Aegislash for hitting other threats. Same thing with Mega Scizor and Conkeldurr (Azumarill carries it to mess with some of its defensive switch-ins). Dragonite wants to have the option of Fire Punch, Conkeldurr another coverage move rather than just defensive utility, and Heracross Swords Dance to break down defensive cores much easier. And of course Aegislash cannot switch into everything.... usually physical attackers like Dragonite and Terrakion have bigger troubles with Aegislash than with
    special attackers like Keldeo and Thundurus, because of King's Shield... though this is not always the case. Your argument is flawed because you fail to recognize that Pokemon carry Earthquake just because of Aegislash, and very few of them need Earthquake for anything else. This alone shows how effective Aegislash can be.

    Also, you do not switch Aegislash recklessly into a Pokemon like Talonflame or Rotom-W; that is just making a really bad play. Would you switch Mega Mawile into Rotom-W? Of course not, because it would get burned by Will-O-Wisp. Yet, we banned Mega Mawile. You do not switch Aegislash into Rotom-W either. Aegislash has flaws, but it does not be a perfect Pokemon to be bannable, geez louise.

    I see what point you are trying to make, but you are ignoring some critical points about Aegislash, and trying to point out that it is not perfect. If it was perfect and unbeatable, it would be quickbanned. You could have at least read the posts when I pointed out that even broken mons have flaws.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2014
  38. Wasabifold

    Wasabifold New Member

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    Alright, let me just say that this suspect in particular irks me because I'm a firm believer that the line right now between what is "truly OP" and what can be considered "really good but not OP" has been lost. Why? I don't know but suspects like this only reinforce this belief for me.

    The way I interpret the metagame is that the tiers seek to differentiate the really good pokemon into their own tier (OU) and come further down as we go, increasingly using pokemon not as good or viable as we go down the lower tiers, based on many factors such as effectiveness in a certain tier, overall stat spread, good/bad abilities, movepool and so on and so on. So by that logic, OU, the main tier should contain the pokemon considered to be the best competitive pokemon in the game. The ones most people use, because they are the best to use. The ones that meet the above criteria better than the rest. I'm not referring to ubers here.

    When I look at OU, I see this. Talonflame, Heatran, the Mega Charizards, Garchomp, Dragonite, Scizor, Greninja, Mega Venusaur. All of these are really good pokemon and they deserve to be OU. Each has something that makes them more desirable to the majority of other pokemon when picking a team, (ability, stats, typing, movepool, offensive power etc)

    What I can't fathom is why Aegislash is being considered above those powerhouses that I just mentioned? I can't see anything about Aegislash that makes him anything more than a good solid OU strength pokemon. And let me explain why. HUGE WALL OF TEXT NEXT. PROCEED AT YOUR OWN RISK. DIDN'T REALIZE IT WOULD BE THIS LONG WHILE I WAS TYPING. SORRY

    First let me address the popular 50/50 argument born out of the smogon suspect. This is to me a completely inaccurate statement to make, that tries to feed off the 50/50 argument used in the Swagger ban, but really the two aren't even comparable. The only thing Aegislash's King's Sheild/Stance Change does is call for players to use the skill that the competitive metagame has been developing ever since it first started. That is prediction. There is no special 50/50 luck draw created by KS/SC that doesn't already exist in the meta. Every turn you have to try and predict what your opponent will do, and I say predict deliberately, not guess.

    The best players and even good players all have this skill to predict, to varying degrees, what your opponent will try and do next using factors that you observe throughout the course of a battle. KS/SC is just another application that requires that skill. There is no inherent luck to it that is out of a player's control, like the confusion hax from the swagger ban, a mechanic completely controlled by the game and impossible to predict. This mechanic deals with making players try and predict what you're opponent will do and even further what your opponent will predict you to do. These are all perfectly acceptable skills used in any strategy-based competitive environment (e.g chess). And it makes me mad that people wanna shoehorn, incorrectly I might add, a luck based reasoning into this argument where it has no place.

    Yes you will sometimes get it wrong on what Aegi intends to do, but that is the name of the game. At any turn during any match it's possible for you to get it wrong, and KS/SC is no different.

    Now moving on to aegi's stat spread and the power it gives him. Yes, it's an amazing stat spread. No denying it. 150 defenses one minute, 150 offenses the next. The likes of this never seen before in competitive play and it brings a unique challenge to the game. that imo is welcome. There is an originality to aegislash and the way to play him and I for one enjoy using him even when I get it wrong. And I haven't used him in months FYI.

    But this amazing stat spread has it's down sides and that is the real point made to offset such advantages. And he has more than enough.

    1. Gamefreak removed steel's ability to resist ghost and dark, giving Aegislash 4 very common and advantageous weakness. All four types that are SE against aegislash, (ghost, dark, fire, and ground) are common and great offensive types, they all have attacks that pack significant power that can OHKO aegi even in sheild form, and have great coverage being resisted by few things. Dark especially is great this generation, needless to say. Adding these moves as coverage to pokemon is not a bad idea as they will serve other purposes other than beating aegi, and shouldn't be lumped into the idea that aegi overcentralizes the meta. I'll get to that later.

    2.When Aegi goes blade form, most importantly his defenses go boom, he's OHKO by anything SE and anything neutral but sufficiently powerful. Aegi isn't a setup sweeper either, so being mismatched when he comes in isn't gonna instantly leave you in a panic unlike other OU pokes that only need one advantage to make sure something dies.. Mega Zard X/Y for example.

    3. He has no recovery besides leftovers and that's important. He can be worn down by significant offensive pressure at best he can secure 12.5% hp back over the course of 2 turns without taking damage, but that's a short term. He'll take damage at some point and it would take him 8 full turns of no damage just to get back 50%. Understand that is an eternity in competitive play.

    4. His movepool. Aegislash is very predictable, the one thing all his sets have is a ghost stab. Every aegislash set has that. You can then pretty much guarantee thatKing's Sheild will be there. The difference in the final 2 slots depends on Aegi's role. Mixed? Sacred sword, Iron Head, Sneak. At least 2 of these will be there. Special? Flash cannon/S-ball and KS all guaranteed. He has very focused options, I won't say limited. He has 2 viable special attacking moves, one of which isn't even that good due to steel being pretty poor offensive coverage and usage. His physical attacking options, while more in number are again not that diverse. Limited to his stabs and one viable non stab Sacred sword. This means that at least it is easy to understand just from looking at an offensive aegislash, the basic makeup of what attacks will be there. The stall set is slightly different.

    I would mention the speed tier and such but I'm just a little tired so I'll wrap this up. All of those are limiting factors to Aegislash and his effectiveness. For something that I can best describe as a counter-tank, who's job is to take hits, then hit back but be a glass cannon while doing so, aegi is really good. But that's all he is. Is he too good for the tier? Hell no.

    There are tonnes of things in OU that can take aegislash, and a lot of them aren't there because of aegislash at all. Earthquake has always been a popular move, scratch that probably the most popular attack of every past gen really. Maybe not this gen with knock off being so good, but definitely still top 2. It has a huge spread with SO many pokemon getting it with STAB and without. It's almost the only ground move worth using, if it can learn earthquake it needs nothing else. Most of OU will have access to this move. That's just the way it is. Yes t-tar runs EQ just because of aegislash, I won't deny it, but then again last gen it ran fire blast+fire punch just for skarmory and ferro. Running a move to get past something that would otherwise check you doesn't make the check OP.

    For counters, he has Mandibuzz, solid counter for every non flash cannon aegi, and if it has taunt, even the sub toxic set presuming mandi can come in on anything but toxic. Foul play does damage irrespective of king's sheild, and excellent typing and speed tier that will most importantly outspeed aegi all the time as they both are usually uninvested in speed.

    Chesnaught counters again all the offensive sets not running flash cannon but it won;'t counter the stall set. Swords dance may be a problem as well especially if paired with sub as ches would be using spiky sheild/leech seed to beat aegi.

    Revenging and checking is much easier to pick out pokemon as usually anything faster that can OHKO aegi shield isn't gonna care about anything aegislash does period. Hydreigon, Both Char megas, Victini, Heatran, Garchomp, Excadrill, Landorus both forms, Bisharp, Volcarona, Mamoswine, Greninja......

    The point I'm trying to make is that it's insane defense stats are betrayed by it's base 60 HP patred with no recovery. Base 60 speed makes him a punching bag for higher speed tiers that are ALL OVER OU. The only thing is to get past King's sheild in which there are tonnes of options. Predict with contact physical moves and get past it, the hardest way, run special, do physical without contact, namely earthquake. Incapacitate via status.

    It's insane offense sacrifices any bulk it has, without king's shiled to revert back it will die, which u can stop with taunt, or predict and take advatage of the loss of momentum that aegi forces the user to make and donk it after setting up in shield or blade form. Diggerbsy etc etc.

    I think the biggest argument right now here is the centralization factor. Well , it's not over centralizing. It doesn't bring a bunch of pokemon from lower tiers or make pokemon run niche sets just to withstand it's assault. The only poke I can think of that rose because of aegi was mandibuzz, but I'd like to think mandibuzz stayed because it's one of the most reliable defoggers period, with excellent bulk and reliable recovery and a great physical check to many strong setup physical sweepers in the tier because of ability to take boosted physical attacks and foul play OHKO with no investment. But maybe I'm mistaken?

    Bisharp now has no steel to resist his knock off can capitalize on defog and intimidate for a deadly defiant boost. So I would say he's not there for aegi either. Everything else in OU was there last gen besides the megas.

    Aegi doesn't force the common OU veterans to run new pokes either. So where is the overcentralization? What playstyle is Aegi making completely impossible to play like mega kanga crushed stall into oblivion? What uncompetitive mechanic has he introduced? I don't see the warrant for a ban. Aegi is a just good OU pokemon, deserving of OU.

    I know in the end he's probably still gonna get banned, too many people that frequent these suspect threads share similar thought processes with smogon, some come from smogon directly and it's usually those people that come to the threads to argue. I don't feel like the full views of the entire community are ever really represented here as most people don't bother joining the forums. I had to make a new account(couldn't get back into my old one), just to say this. I really feel this aegi suspect is uncalled for. It really is.
     
  39. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    Alfalfa
    Read inside to see my critiquing of your argument (spoiler too)

    We have seen these types of arguments on Smogon as well. That does not make them any better of an argument. "Pokemon X has weaknesses, let's unban it" could translate to "Giratina has weaknesses, let's unban it" or "Shaymin-S has weaknesses, let's unban it".
     
  40. Wasabifold

    Wasabifold New Member

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    Way to sum up my argument so incompletely.

    No one is worried about how these pokemon are gonna be checked with aegi gone. How other pokemon fair after an aegislash ban shouldn't be reasoning to support an aegi ban. Aegi should be banned on his own merits.

    And why not? I fail to see how this argument should be dismissed just because it can be made? These arguments are sound. They speak to the downsides of the poke and how it is handled. Which is the point, is aegi too much to handle or not? Making arguments meant to highlight the inherent flaws of a pokemon are a vital part of the counter-argument process in the first place.

    I don't think King's Sheild is even on the cards. Why would anyone call for a King's sheild ban? To completely stunt aegislash's effectiveness? He wouldn't even be worthwhile in OU without it.

    The effectiveness of psychic types against aegislash in particular is definitely impaired. But why should aegi be banned just to allow these pokes in? We could make the same statement that grass types and the majority of fighting types have been scared away from OU because of talonflame, with literally only 1 grass type, mega venusaur even trying to be OU. But the truth is, some types will be used more than others for varying reasons. Grass already has tonnes of weaknesses and poor offensive coverage, with a lot of them having bad stats. Those three things alone make for most grass pokes not getting into OU. Fighting now has a new type that resist them and their common coverage on top of that. (Dark/fighting was perfect coverage last gen, but not now with fairies). The same can be said about psychics this gen. With dark and ghost now rampant due to steel nerf, even the steel psychics like jirachi and metagross have been forced down the tiers with knock off everywhere. Aegi is not to blame for alienating this type, that's just the way this gen's metagame has developed, with dark being a more preferred coverage type, psychics are bound to drop as they were very susceptible to them before. Fairies with the similar type coverage and effectiveness against dark and resistance to it, is gonna be preferred over psychic usually due to better typing and similar roles. One pokemon isn't to blame for Jirachi, Starmie and Celebis falling. It has been a collection of reasons that all stem from the changes made this gen.

    And OU is all about working out what works best for every gen. So in the terms of XY OU, where mega pokemon with ridiculous stats, effectively introducing at least a dozen more pseudo legendary-level pokemon into the game are running rampant and steel defensively getting nerfed, pokemon like aegi capable of standing up against them are welcome.

    And moving on slightly, I'd like to talk about the statement "unhealthy for the metagame". I see this used a lot in these suspect threads but no one really elaborates on what qualifies as unhealthy. The statement alone is usually enough to scare away rebuttal. Since no one bothers to define, I'm gonna attempt to define it.
    Imo, there are several criterias for which a pokemon can be tested for "unhealthiness".

    Offensive presence - How big an offensive presence is the pokemon? Does it crush 95% of the metagame with little easy, smashes through all walls, lacks any or one counter, forces the use of niche checks that can still die. That's what I expect from a pokemon who's offense is so devastating it is literally cancer to the metagame. Pokemon like Arceus, Mewtwo, Kyogre that annihilate pokemon with ease almost instantly. These are unhealthy. Now does Aegi qualify here? Do his attacks OHKO +2hko 90-95% of all pokemon. Does he have the ability to come in on any and everything and threaten it out, but also threaten any switch in as well? I think you'll find the answer to those as a resounding no. His offense, while good, is limited in range of what it can do, due to his ability and restrictions in when he can safely use it. Lots of times attacking and faling to OHKO can spell death for aegi.

    Overcentralization - Does a pokemon force the use of particular types of pokemon to combat it? Alienate entire types from a tier? Are specifically engineered pokemon from lower tiers brought up simply to combat it? Again the answer is no for Aegislash.

    Yeesh, long again and tired. Finish this up later. Don't close the thread before I get back.
     
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