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Official Shadow Tag Suspect Discussion [EDIT: Vote, please read]

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Ubers' started by Fixed, Oct 8, 2014.

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  1. Fixed

    Fixed Active Member

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    [​IMG]

    Hello there. Firstly I'd like to announce than I am now a Ubers tier leader, and I will be leading the tier together with @ZoroDark.

    There has recently been some discussion about a possible suspect test for Shadow Tag or Gengarite, especially after the Gengarite suspect test on Smogon. As with the Geomancy suspect test, we will start with an unofficial discussion thread to collect everyone's thoughts. So please use this thread to discuss the possibility of banning Shadow Tag from the XY Ubers metagame.

    EDIT:
    It's time to make this official now. This suspect discussion will run for about 3 weeks with a deadline set at November 9th. We intend to do a test ban, but that will only happen the last 2 weeks of the suspect test. We do this to give everyone the opportunity to play with certain Shadow Tag abusers some more to get to know their strengths and weaknesses. Unless a consensus is reached, a vote will likely follow, but details will be communicated when we're closer to the deadline.

    Keep in mind the following:
    • Stay on topic.
    • Post intelligently, and base your posts on your experience and knowledge of the tier.
    • Make sure you have read the tier policy.
    • Feel free to argue for the suspect of only a specific Shadow Tag user (like Mega Gengar).
    ----

    EDIT: WE WILL HAVE A VOTE READ BELOW

    We will be deciding matters on Shadow Tag with a vote. The Shadow Tag abusers are all very different from each other, so we will be having four separate votes, namely Gengarite, Gothitelle, Wobbuffet and Gothorita. Unfortunately we cannot do a test ban because that would mess up OU and all lower tiers. This shouldn't matter too much though, as you should be deciding on whether or not the Shadow Tag abusers are a problem in the current metagame. To qualify for the vote, you'll need a rating of 1350 or more on the XY Ubers ladder at Sunday 9 november 23:59 PM GMT. The ladder won't be reset, we only did that last time to clear a year old ladder. We'll post specifics on how to vote later this week. You will be expected to send a paragraph explaining your vote, so you can start thinking about that already. In the mean time, it would be nice if there were some more discussion in this thread.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2014
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  2. ZoroDark

    ZoroDark i know everything

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    So yeah just kinda use this thread to say whether you think Gengarite or Shadow Tag should be suspected. If you don't think either of those need a suspect, of course you're free to argue for that as well.

    Just make sure you include reasoning that strokes with the tiering policy and then we'll likely get an official suspect running in the next week or so :)
     
  3. DSM01

    DSM01 Jammin' out

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    I don't have an opinion one way or the other right now, but if we are going to suspect something I think it should be Gengarite and not Shadow Tag as a whole. In short, Gengar can threaten all team archetypes through its combination of speed, power, Taunt, and Destiny Bond. D Bond specifically allows it to usually get at least 1 kill per match, even if it's not a trade in the Gengar user's favor. Gothitelle is far more situational and can only trap defensive Pokemon or mons with little offensive investment. It's great against stall but versus offense it's pretty much dead weight. Goth isn't a mon you can slap on a team and have it pull its weight and I think it has a fair balance between risk and reward.
     
  4. mibuchiha

    mibuchiha Was yea ra chs ieeya.

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    Oh god what is happening with people these days wanting to ban anything remotely good.

    I'll start. Shadow Tag is not broken enough to be bannable. Let's go through the common users.

    Gengar

    170 SpA sounds impressive, yes, especially with an ability that allows it to pick its matches. However, first, it needs to mega to get that benefit. This is quite a problem, because Gengar is such a frail mon that has negligible switch in ability and can't lead for shit. Any attack, even if resisted, hurt it significantly. And since Ubers is where even offensive mons are naturally fat, it has virtually no OHKOs and that matters a lot for something as frail as it. 2HKOs are cool but not really if after the kill it walks out damaged beyond help or crippled to uselessness, that's just an equal exchange. And many matchup for Gengar in this tier is just that. Granted, it has places where it can shine well, but that's just what it's supposed to do. Without benefits, we wouldn't bother. Yes, it can use Destiny Bond when it's done attacking, but this necessarily demands predictions which is an element of skill and not a problem of Gengar itself. Not to mention this requires it to score a KO and come out not crippled too hard, which is more difficult in practice.

    And for Perish Song shenanigans, well, again, this demands Gengar to stay in for 3 turns spamming Protect/Subs. This is trickier to handle but similar problems arise. It cannot fully invest in bulk as its speed is too important (not that it's bulky with full investment anyway) and as it cannot protect itself during the Perish Song turn, this set isn't exactly easy to use.

    Gothielle
    A disclaimer: I've never used it. I've only had it used against me. This is better than Gengar in some sense, like against more defensively oriented teams where it can boost or help in removing key walls to pave way for the mates. But its stats is very poor. Against anything offensive, Gothielle has virtually no place. And Ubers has a lot of such powerhouses. Sure, it gets to choose its game, but the pool of choices is very small due to its horrid stats. In some games, it might not get a chance at all, essentially making you go 5v6. Whether you want that tradeoff is up to you, but I'd argue for consistent performance it's not worth it. I'd like to be proven wrong.

    Wobbuffett
    Quite bulky, but not enough to actually wall anything notable. Learns too few moves to actually be able to perform any role. Extremely predictable, and it has a lot of problems with mindgames. Abysmally slow so Encore isn't as cool as one wish it to be, and Mirror Coat/Counter shenanigans demand it to actually stay alive. Maybe it will be somewhat better when we have Custap, but now isn't that time. Not that it'll be that good anyway.

    Other Goths/Wynaut
    Why bother smh.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2014
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  5. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Here guys I wrote all your posts for you so you dont need to post! aren't i good

    "ubers is a ban list dont ban" :] if it can get accepted for xerneas vote it can get accepted here

    MGengar + Shadow Tag in general is fundamentally uncompetitive in Ubers but w/e you guys want
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2014
  6. Email

    Email reformed xd

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    Shadow tag alone isnt broken enough to suspect it , its fucking destiny bond and shadow tag, 99% guaranteed a kill,
    Start of turn 24
    The foe's Gengar used Destiny Bond!
    The foe's Gengar is trying to take the foe down with it!

    Kyogre used Water Spout!
    The foe's Gengar lost 100% of its health!
    The foe's Gengar fainted!
    The foe's Gengar took the attacker down with it!
    also extremely annoying when you set up cm +6 on arceus then this shit comes out
    Without dbond shadow tag is somewhat useless and vice versa, i think a complex ban is in order here
     
  7. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    I'm anti-ban. I really don't consider it uncompetitive. It's something you can readily prepare for when teambuilding, either by not making your team STag bait (e.g. running heal block on Klefki) and you can play around it to a certain extent with pursuit support. As for brokenness, MGar's frailty and the fact that it requires a turn to MEvo make it fairly manageable, while Goth is more limited in what it can trap, especially against offensive teams. Everything else is practically irrelevant.

    That said, if this goes to a suspect (which it probably will), I don't think we should suspect anything besides STag (ie. Not MGar, not any kind of complex ban). To do anything else is to really dance around the issue. For MGar, the fact that it requires a turn to MEvo makes it a lot easier to play around than Goth, while Goth still traps things and sets up on them, but because it already has STag you're given a lot less leeway in terms of eliminating it before it can come in on whatever it is that it can set up on.

    Sorry Email, but I think the idea of a DBond+STag ban is laughable and wholly unnecessary. STag presents far more issues than just DBond, and frankly if a mon needs to sac itself to gain a kill, I really don't consider that broken
     
  8. MUMU

    MUMU DNR KILLED IT

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    Basically what @mibuchiha said, also being ohko'd by every common attack other than Moonblast means it loses to most scarfers, and even when it does manage to use destiny bond the Gengar user is basically trading his/her mega.It does give stall team some problems but it is in fact possible to build stall around it, without the said stall being damaged as a team, not to mention it often needs to play its switch flips right to trap key Pokemon anyway.

    lol
    At this rate people will ask for destiny bond suspect next
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2014
  9. Dreams

    Dreams Active Member

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    I was going to save my paragraph for the potential vote thread but thanks to @Aurist with his incredibly insightful post based off experience, I've felt obliged to add a post of equal standards of my own
    I added some material from my older posts because I'm lazy but w/e
    I'm against a ban

    The tiers serve a dual purpose. The first is to promote balanced gameplay and the second is to create an environment where weaker Pokemon can be used.
    Ubers however are Pokemon that are considered too powerful for the OU metagame. The Uber tier is not meant to be a balanced tier, and therefore isn't the main metagame.
    The entirety of competitive Pokemon strategy is focused on damage -- the ability to deal damage, withstand damage, and avoid damage. Damage is the end-all-be-all of battling.
    Prediction is one of the keys to a successful game, but it should not be heavily relied upon. No one can predict with even close to perfect accuracy, and even a single missed prediction often means that one of your Pokemon will be KOed. And the risks for gengar user is pretty high as one mispredict often results in a dead gengar as it is frail and cannot withstand more than one hit when switching in.
    Although it may be difficult to comprehend at first, it is important to remember that directly countering every threat in the game is impossible. Even if the X/Y metagame was not filled with more powerful sweepers than in any previous generation, the metagame is constantly changing, and players will quickly find ways to abuse common trends. For this reason, there are in fact very few Pokemon that can always be directly countered at all.Pokemon is more than just countering ,it is possible to play around any kind of threat with a well built team, through planning, prediction, and custom sets.
    If the above conditions were not met by any specific entity , be it an item , a move, a pokemon , a playstyle and such , they would undoubtedly be deemed noncompetitive .
    And this applies very aptly to Ubers which is teeming with overpowered forces with no direct counters , primary reason being why they are in this tier.
    Firstly ,Mega Gengar ,as you might have noted, does not break any of the standards I have mentioned above.
    Secondly , is the one turn it requires before it megavolves into the threat it actually poses. This turn is very crucial as it lets you
    1)send in something which can kill it or something you are willing to let go down with it. ( akin to how we "sack" certain mons which have fulfilled their roles/deadweight ---> This makes it apparent that "losing a mon/ forced to let something die " isn't limited to Mega Gengar)
    2) pursuit trappers ( obvious)
    3) scarfed users ( again , obvious)
    4) ghost type pokemon
    The very definition of Ubers implies that most(not all)of the pokemon residing in this tier have little to no direct counters and "playstyles" ( horrible term) hinge on playing around said Ubers.

    Switching.
    As I have already noted , Switching / being unable to switch does not make pokemon
    competitive or non competitive.
    It is merely one of the many mechanics such as typing/output formula ( for damage)/items and many layers of depth in speed / priority / status and so on.
    Gengar certainly does choose what it switches into ( as do you choose what to send in against gengar the first time gengar enters the field. ) Upon mega evolution , gengar can trap and take down one mon with it almost always. But then , this isn't a distinctive trait limited to Gengar as many ubers "take down one mon with them " purely due to the sheer power of the tier. This doesn't push gengar over the edge , nor make it non competitive.

    Team Support
    The team support Gengar offers is tremendous . This is undisputed. What is meant to be debated is if this support makes it truly noncompetitive. To this , I'd say no. Gengar is certainly capable of taking down a minimum of one pokemon with it. Therefore it removes one of the "checks" you run on your team to prepare for the Overcentralized threats in Ubers. However , this trait is not limited to gengar as a mispredict also causes un-calculated losses and you find yourself bereft of a check you need to play safely against the opponent. This is more of a fundamental teambuilding flaw ( impossible to counter every threat with six mons) than a point highlighting the nature of competitiveness gengar brings to the field.

    I will not be addressing poor arguments on over centralization as that doesn't apply to Ubers; Kyogre/ExtremeKiller Arceus/Xerneas etc etc are the very definition of 'Over-centralization' .

    Finally, there is enough leeway to exploit when facing Gengar and it shows no traits which pushes it into the selective non competitive list of bans Ubers has. ( OHKO , Swagger , Moody, being the most prominent ones )

    I vote No Ban

    Finch edit merging double post:
    zoro edit: then at least unbold it smh

    Edit: Sry and ty for unbolding
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2014
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  10. Slayer

    Slayer The Beast Incarnate

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    Not being able to run something like a support arceus form or stall in order to not lose to shadow tag is really annoying and bad for the tier.
    You'd need to double switch to bring in your Pursuit user against your opponent's shadow tag user. That's risky and pretty predictable. HP Fire on Mega Gengar is decent as well.

    It also forces you to run as many Pursuit users as possible on stall to revenge kill it because STag users will most likely kill more than 1 of your pokes if you run stall.
    A good player will remove your counter to Ekiller or Geoxern and sweep your whole team. That makes the tier very matchup based which is really bad for a tier. You can't stop or counter Shadow Tag either: If your opponent is good he will know what counter to remove with Shadow Tag and sweep. It takes the game out of the player's hands and that shouldn't happen at all.

    And yeah, DBond + STag ban is dumb n_n
     
  11. mibuchiha

    mibuchiha Was yea ra chs ieeya.

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    "A good player..."

    "If your opponent is good..."

    And then,

    "It takes the game out of the players hands..."

    Yeah, count me unconvinced. Being good at using something shouldn't count toward that thing being broken. A broken thing should give results even if you're not so good.
     
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  12. Slayer

    Slayer The Beast Incarnate

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    An average ubers player can see that a team only carries 1 check/counter to 1 of his pokes.
     
  13. Lord Outrage

    Lord Outrage Banned

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    Xerneas was more broken than mega gengar and got unbanned.If we go for a vote it's just a waste of time people will vote unban because most good players doesn't want to ban anything from ubers and i think the xerneas vote proved that as well.As of mega gengar it can be very annoying i agree because of the number of threats we have in ubers we can barely afford one counter for each poke.so if a threat is paired with mega gengar,mega gengar can lay down the counter and die maybe but it will give a free way for the threat to rape the team.It's also a big problem to most stall teams so yeah for me it's broken.
     
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  14. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    First off, forget Shadow Tag. Mega Gengar is the only good user of it in the tier (Gothitelle is irrelevant in Ubers and Wobb just isn't broke). Focus on that.

    Second off, I never found it broken in Ubers. At all. It's main purpose is to checkmate Pokemon that can't hurt it and turn them into easy fodder/setup bait and Destiny Bond threats that prove to be a problem...

    ...how is that being unfair in the tier again? Really, if you look at the current tier, tell me the percentage of Pokemon that have no way to damage it, because all I can think of are Mono-attackers and pure support Pokemon. The point of the set is to kill off obscurities that mess with the strategy like Chansey and long-shot Ferrothorn. It traps specific threats and makes them useless. How many Pokemon do we have that do that in lower tiers and are not considered broken? Quite a few, main ones being Dugtrio, Gothitelle, Wobbuffet, and Magnezone for the similarity of preventing switches. Are any of them even considered overpowered for trapping niche Pokemon? No, they get a free pass. If Mega Gengar has the same niche, same basic perks, and same share of weaknesses that the mentioned have, why does it get all of the hate?

    Okay, I'll understand the reason that it's extremely strong and fast with good STABs and coverage for the tier. While that's a fine reason, there's a problem with that regarding the current tier it's in: no boosting. 170 Base Special Attack is outstanding by all means, but in a tier that specializes in easy setup/boosts for more damage, Mega Gengar has Substitute........and that's it. It has no way to boost its stats to match with the likes of Mewtwo, Aegislash, Deoxys-A, Blaziken, or Rayquaza. It's not even allowed to hold a Choice item or Life Orb while, guess what, the others can. In comparison, Mega Gengar isn't all that powerful in Ubers because the metagame is one that obsesses over power, which forbids it from showing off its actual strength.

    Oh, and as for the Destiny Bond Trap argument, while I agree that it's a bullshit KO, if that's your reason to ban it, then please tell me why MegaBanette hasn't been brought up yet. It ensures Destiny Bond always goes first with Prankster in situations where for the most part preventing a switch makes no difference anyway, is almost just as strong, it's bulkier, and it shares a similar support movepool. It's also a RU Pokemon. I'm not saying Mega Gengar should drop by any means, but if Mega Banette has the potential to do almost everything Mega Gengar can in a tier lower than it honestly should be in and is told to be not broken, you'd have to give me a really damn good reason why Gengar is said to be broken in the tier it belongs for nearly the same reasons. If you don't think that makes sense, it's because it doesn't.

    It's not a Pokemon that prevents playing, it's a Pokemon that enforces playing. Being trapped by a Mega Gengar sucks, but it doesn't make the metagame go crazy. If anything, it's a Pokemon that says "know what you're doing or die." A broken Pokemon in a tier is one that it doesn't matter if you know what you're doing or not, you lose anyway. Mega Gengar is the opposite of the case. In the tier it resides in, it's depressingly weak and makes its own niche. If a Pokemon is really good at its job, that doesn't make it broken, it makes it really good, especially when its job isn't destroying a tier rather than picking off specific threats.

    Quite honestly, if you're losing to Mega Gengar for reasons other than what it's supposed to do, I feel bad for you. If you lose to Mega Gengar because it was doing its job and you happened to be carrying easy targets for it without one of truthfully plenty of good ways to stop it, I don't feel bad for you there; that part you should have prepared for and it's not that hard to prepare for in Ubers anyway. Wanting it banned for the reason that it kills your team is just lazy.

    No ban, there's just no proof that it needs it.
     
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  15. Fixed

    Fixed Active Member

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    Can everybody please stop exaggerating the strengths and weaknesses of the Shadow Tag Pokemon? It doesn't help you prove your point at all. I don't want to see any more of "You can't bring a support Arceus or you lose to Shadow Tag" or "Gothitelle is irrelevant in Ubers" in this thread. Most of the discussion has been useful though, so carry on.

    As for making this official, we'll be deciding soon.
     
  16. C AllStar

    C AllStar Member

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    Ok it finally happens after waiting for so long.

    In my opinion Shadow Tag is fucking cancer for the Ubers tier. I have written walls of text on the Smogon forums and my opinion haven't changed till now. I will be linking you to my first post to avoid writing the same thing over and over again. I will add on something that I haven't said in the original post.

    I heard someone saying that Shadow Tag is something that can be prepared from the teambuilder. In fact, the opposite of it is true. The 'ways to prepare Shadow Tag through teambuilder' includes packing Pursuit trappers and non-tag weak sets. Howeever, none of these can guarantee that you are safe from Stag. I personally use AV Infiltrator Spiritomb which is considered the most reliable Pursuit trapper for Mega Gengar due to not being 3hkoed by Mega Gengar's most common moves and the ability to bypass SubGar. However, this doesn't mean that my team is safe from Stag. Mega Gengar with Will-O-Wisp or Reflect type can fuck over my Pursuit trapping while the more common SubDisable makes Pursuit trapping a 5050. Not to mention Goth and Wobb can easily survive a Pursuit and I need to guess when it will come in right for two times in a row in order to trap and kill it. Other Pursuit trappers face similar situation and can only trap Stag users with a certain moveset while being fucked over by others. For preparing for Shadow Tag through altering movesets, it seems work but it is still matchup reliant in reality. You may think that your Heal Block Klefki is safe from Goth until it gets hit by Charm Goth. Punishment Arceus formes become a liability that wastes a moveslot to accomplish basically nothing. The worst thing is that you have no freedom to bring more than one answer to it unlike other huge threats like GoeXern or so since you are TRAPPED. Even if you can pack two Pursuit trappers that covers all varients of Mega Gengar. However, in reality you can only send in one of them at the same time. If the Mega Gengar escaped, you are forced to guess when would it enter the field again. Goth and Wobb which doesn't need the turn to Mega evolve only makes the issue worse. The outcome of the game no longer depends on the skill of the player but rather the matchup of the Stag pokemons' sets with the target they are trying to trap. There isn't a way to prepare for it since the possibility of sets that Stag pokemons can run is numerous. No matter how you prepare for Stag you are still bait for some Stag pokemons' sets.

    @NidoTheKing I don't think you have much understanding to the Ubers tier. Saying that Gothitelle is irrelevant in Ubers is the most obvious flaw of your argument seeing that Gothitelle is one of the hugest threats in the Ubers tier currently especially due to the introduction of Arceus formes and people starting to develop its untapped potential. Arguing weather Shadow Tag is broken of not is also pointless since the main reason for Stag to be considered as a suspect is its uncompetitiveness rather than its brokenness, not saying that it isn't broken at all tho. It isn't about the power behind Mega Gengar's attacks or not but rather how it can choose its targets and create a 1v1 situation to remove threats for sweepers to sweep when their checks are trapped to death.

    Stag does more than just limiting stall builds. For example, many offensive teams rely on Klefki to slow down GeoXern and kill it but Stag users can simply trap and snipe it off without a single thought. Now the offensive team is in the huge threat of a GeoXern sweep seeing how its good bulk and typing helps it to set up pretty easily and shrug of priority as strong as Ekiller's LO Extremespeed with pretty ease. Stag allows the users to rather than weakening the opposing checks with plays, simply take the shortcut and force a kill. There is no way to play around it unless you win every coin flip with the pokemon the opposing team is intending to trap. The team against Stag has an inherent disadvantage if there is an important pokemon that the Stag user is trying to trap. Stag basically makes team matchup are more major factor to the outcome of the match rather than the players' skill level. This shouldn't be something that exists in a competitive tier. Stag should therefore be BANNED.
     
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  17. mibuchiha

    mibuchiha Was yea ra chs ieeya.

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    I find it amusing that you completely ignore how you assume Gengar walks out unscathed after trapping things every time. Sure, that Groudon won't like WoW, but it wins 1v1 almost all the time regardless of set even after rocks and full spikes. Even against Perish Song sets as all attacks even when burned break subs. Same as MMX, or y'know, since it ties, it can just murder it outright. Special mons don't really care about burns and I don't know what can Gengar actually OHKO. Klefki, oh yeah Gengar will love that para. SubDisable can actually trap what, Band and Specs users. Rarely seen to say the least, and if you have those and see a Gengar then you should know better to adjust your plays. Now tell me, what does Gengar actually trap and kill without it dying or getting heavily crippled itself? Won't bother counting lategame situations where everyone is already weak and so Gengar cleans easily since if you can go 5v6 while keeping Gengar uncrippled but somehow already mega'd to trap things then that's awesome and you deserve the win. Remember, it has very small switch in window and it sure ain't good pre-mega so there's no additional utility of mega-or-not mindgames too.

    Gothielle. I wouldn't call it irrelevant, but I've never had trouble with it, ever. I can see that it limits stall quite severely, but as I've said in my GeoXern vote, when a set adopts a purpose it lets go of another, due to limitations in moveslot and EV. As such, it is the players' responsibility to manage their own risks. If this 'untapped potential' of your Arceus happens to have a glaring Gothielle problem, well, that's what you've chosen to do and don't be crying foul if that weakness makes you get walked on. And again, there's this major issue that Gothielle is piss weak with terrible defensive typing so it can't do much else...

    On eliminating checks to sweepers, well duh that's the whole point. In the past gens MagDrag is a legit strategy because of that and I don't see how Gengar/Gothielle is any different. You never needed to run obscure shit to get past them, all you need to do is to ensure that your team is not too Shadow Tag prone, which is not as ridiculously demanding as running Infiltrator Spiritomb that's for sure (nice job greatly biasing the argument by mentioning such obscure mon btw). And a para or being left at 25% HP sure don't sound like 'sniping without a single thought' to me btw. In GSC (which is called the finest skill play in all gens I know) it is very common to have multiple partial responses to many threats (some of which involve purely pressure, not even checks), so why suddenly you who flaunts skill don't wanna do that here? Did the word somehow degenerate to ability to execute stall well sometime ago and I missed it? Sure, it's not easy being unable to switch, but then again Gengar ain't trapping you if it got no time to mega and come in is it. Ditto for Gothielle, it takes skill not just to use Shadow Tag but to actually create the window in which it is usable.

    All I see is Shadow Tag actually demands you to adjust plays accordingly to the myriad of threats available. It is competitive at its finest and involves great skill both to use and to respond to. Ok, maybe my definition of skill doesn't exclusively involve playing mechanically in a boring as hell game of attrition called stall war you love so much, but then again I'm an advocate of balance of playstyles (NOT balanced playstyle) and so I don't need every damn threat to have 10 perfect counters to all possible sets it can possibly dream to run. Especially in Ubers. Adjusting your plays such that you can win in the lowest amount of time is even more of a skill and while indeed, I agree that some things allow you to do that consistently in many different situations with much ease (and therefore is broken), Gengar, Gothielle and Wobbuffet, the relevant users of Shadow Tag, is not that.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2014
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  18. MUMU

    MUMU DNR KILLED IT

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    Between all the discussions about Gothitelle, it's probably worth noting that while Gothitelle itself has above average match-up against some stall builds, it's in fact next to dead weight against offensive teams and as such the use of it is in fact somewhat questionable as starting every game against offensive teams with what is almost equivalent of a 5 against 6 match-up is arguably not worth it, considering how it effects the teams overall success.
     
  19. ZoroDark

    ZoroDark i know everything

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    It's time to make this official now. This suspect discussion will run for about 3 weeks with a deadline set at November 9th. We intend to do a test ban, but that will only happen the last 2 weeks of the suspect test. We do this to give everyone the opportunity to play with certain Shadow Tag abusers some more to get to know their strengths and weaknesses. Unless a consensus is reached, a vote will likely follow, but details will be communicated when we're closer to the deadline.

    Keep in mind the following:
    • Stay on topic.
    • Post intelligently, and base your posts on your experience and knowledge of the tier.
    • Make sure you have read the tier policy.
    • Feel free to argue for the suspect of only a specific Shadow Tag user (like Mega Gengar).
     
    Fixed likes this.
  20. Fixed

    Fixed Active Member

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    Bump. [Hint: post more]

    We will be deciding matters on Shadow Tag with a vote. The Shadow Tag abusers are all very different from each other, so we will be having four separate votes, namely Gengarite, Gothitelle, Wobbuffet and Gothorita. Unfortunately we cannot do a test ban because that would mess up OU and all lower tiers. This shouldn't matter too much though, as you should be deciding on whether or not the Shadow Tag abusers are a problem in the current metagame. To qualify for the vote, you'll need a rating of 1350 or more on the XY Ubers ladder at Sunday 9 november 23:59 PM GMT. The ladder won't be reset, we only did that last time to clear a year old ladder. We'll post specifics on how to vote later this week. You will be expected to send a paragraph explaining your vote, so you can start thinking about that already. In the mean time, it would be nice if there were some more discussion in this thread.
     
  21. DSM01

    DSM01 Jammin' out

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    Maybe I'm out of the loop, but why are we voting on Gothorita?
     
    Rioku likes this.
  22. Fixed

    Fixed Active Member

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    Gothorita can replace the role of Gothitelle in case only the latter gets banned.

    0 SpA Splash Plate Arceus-Water Judgment vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Gothorita: 81-96 (25 - 29.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
     
  23. Linkin Karp

    Linkin Karp Reformed™

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    @DSM01 Gothorita outclasses some Gothitelle sets, for example Leftovers RestTalk (tho no one uses that in Ubers).
     
  24. Fixed

    Fixed Active Member

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    Time to vote.

    Ladder screenshots:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    To vote, send a forum PM to ZoroDark and me. Please use the following format:

    Name + rank: your name + rank in the screenshot above
    Gengarite: (ban/no ban/abstain)
    Gothitelle: ^
    Gothorita: ^
    Wobbuffet: ^
    Paragraph: A paragraph (or more) explaining your votes.

    You'll have a week to vote, so the deadline will be 16 November 23:59 GMT.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2014
    Finchinator likes this.
  25. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    Not that I am relevant for this, but I'm noting that the ban is specified for XY Ubers. Will the ban(s) be extended to ORAS, if it/they goes through, or is it strictly for the soon-to-be-dead XY Ubers metagame only?
     
  26. mibuchiha

    mibuchiha Was yea ra chs ieeya.

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    I would assume them to be extended. Ubers have no bans thus far so there's nothing to retest, one simply needs to consider the new changes to the meta.
     
  27. Fixed

    Fixed Active Member

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    The suspect is for XY Ubers because the ORAS games are not out yet. Should anything get banned, we will start the official ORAS metagame with those bans when the games are released. We will then let the ORAS metagame stabilise for at least around two months before thinking about new suspects or possible retests.
     
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  28. TCMK

    TCMK Member

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    upload_2014-11-15_11-32-45.png To end confusion, somebody should probably move the Shadow Tag suspect to XY Ubers section lol
     
    Fixed likes this.
  29. Fixed

    Fixed Active Member

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    Done.
     
  30. ZoroDark

    ZoroDark i know everything

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    So yeah after talking about this with Fixed, we've decided to scrap the results of this thread. To be clear, this means that nothing is going to get banned from the current Ubers metagame, which is ORAS. A big reason for that decision are the massive changes that ORAS has brought to the Ubers metagame and it'll likely change even more once Mega Rayquaza gets released.

    As for the results, no majority voted for ban so we don't ban, but not enough people voted to conclude that the community is against a ban. That's it for XY Ubers tiering, so see you all around in ORAS :)
     
    DSM01 likes this.
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