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Hippowdon Suspect Discussion [Closed]

Discussion in 'Gen 6 NU' started by Weavile, Oct 16, 2014.

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  1. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Hi. Our topic today is Hippowdon.

    Hippowdon is being suspected as a "solution" to the called for "Sand Suspect". We chose Hippowdon over Smooth Rock as we figured that Smooth Rock ban would not have the desired impact and would not sufficiently hinder the sand play-style if the playerbase wished to address the problem.

    So. Discuss Hippowdon's impact on the metagame as both a sand setter and or a wall/tank if you feel it is appropriate to mention those attributes.

    Arguments must make logical sense and be reasonably well presented. Don't post calcs alone, post an argument with calcs to support it if appropriate. Do not argue for "alternative suspects" such as Stoutland or Smooth Rock in this thread. That's not what it's for.

    Anyone is welcome to post, but anyone is also welcome to deconstruct anyone else's post if they feel they are capable of doing so and that it is worth doing. However personal attacks are unacceptable.
     
  2. EvilDingoRobot

    EvilDingoRobot HELLOOOOOOOO

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    I am totally not a fan of hippowdon.
    Hippowdon has access to stealth rock, and an unbelievable bulk. Once getting worn down, slack off can just heal it more. Hippowdon also has whirlwind to take out set ups to a sweeper, while also hitting fire and flying types a bit with stealth rock. Also, this sand does 12.5% damage per turn, while hippowdon also has access to toxic, allowing for stall. Earthquake can also do some decent stab damage.

    Here are some examples of hippowdon's bulk

    224 Atk Scrafty Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 78-93 (18.5 - 22.1%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 117-138 (27.8 - 32.8%) -- 77.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

    252 SpA Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 192-226 (45.7 - 53.8%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Typhlosion Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 141-166 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- 18.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Typhlosion: 290-344 (97.6 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

    In all, I believe that hippowdon should be banned.

    EDIT: Right, sand does do 6.25%, but enough to kill someone in 16 turns without toxic add.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2014
  3. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    Sandstorm damages for only 6.25%, not 12.5%... I really don't know where you pulled that number from. Anyway, that's not the topic at hand here.

    Hippowdon is a bit of an interesting case. A bulky Stealth Rock-setter that's was able to rival Tyranitar for a spot on the team until Tyranitar's Mega Evolution came around, there's no doubt that Hippowdon is able to resolve issues that a team can have defensively just with its bulk and not-too-shabby attack stat. What my worshipper (and I'm not using this in a negative context) failed to mention, however, is which set is the one that actually gets used. The most common set according to the statics page is an Impish, 252HP/252Def/4SpD set with the moves Stealth Rock, Earthquake, Slack Off, and Whirlwind, and therefore should be the bigger context here than a Specially Defensive set.

    As beautiful as a tank Hippowdon is, there's plenty of things that are able to handle it that are laying around in the metagame, and I personally haven't run into a single team that hasn't run at least one, if not two or perhaps 3, of these Pokémon. In the spoiler, you'll find some calcs just to see how this guy can really hold up. For these purposes, I'll be using the most common or second-most common sets from the statistics page, ruling out hax items such as a King's Rock.

    252 Atk Life Orb Cinccino Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 195-235 (46.4 - 55.9%) -- approx. 2.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    0 SpA Seismitoad Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 198-234 (47.1 - 55.7%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ SpA Life Orb Milotic Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 556-658 (132.3 - 156.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    0 SpA Vileplume Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 230-272 (54.7 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 282-333 (67.1 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Typhlosion Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 207-244 (49.2 - 58%) -- 60.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 Atk Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 150-176 (35.7 - 41.9%) -- 83.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 328-385 (78 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Hitmonchan Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 156-185 (37.1 - 44%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Choice Band Druddigon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 195-231 (46.4 - 55%) -- 10.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ SpA Mesprit Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 242-286 (57.6 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Life Orb Mesprit Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 382-452 (90.9 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
    252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 339-399 (80.7 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Magneton Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 266-314 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 177-211 (42.1 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Now, we go into the practical side of things and figure out what Hippowdon can do in response. Pokémon he cannot even touch, outside of Whirlwind, are Sigilyph (not even effected by Whirlwind onto Rocks), Mesprit, and Noivern. On the flipside, Magneton and Typhlosion both get OHKO'd by Earthquake. Cincinno isn't quite safe either, with an ensured 2HKO if need be and odds are while Cincinno is firing off seeds, Hippowdon will be slaking off and recovering to put Cincinno, and otherwise potent threat, to rest. Same thing goes for Hitmonchan, taking a 2HKO. Everything else on this list is either resistant (Virizion) or takes hits from Hippowdon rather well, either only taking 3HKOs or 4HKOs.

    Looking over all of this, while Hippowdon may be a massive force, there are very simple ways to work around it that are common in the metagame. As such, my opinion is... no ban.
     
  4. Trakyan

    Trakyan Member

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    I may be wrong here, but I believe the argument is that sand itself is broken not just hippowdon, so it's not just a matter of answering hippowdon.

    Let's look at what hippowdon brings to the table.

    Sand
    This seems to be the main argument or reason for people wanting to ban hippowdon, however I honestly fail to see the merit here. Sand is rarely used for it's defensive advantages (passive damage, spdef boost to rock types) due to the duration nerf this gen, which all makes sense (cradily could be used more, though). As such, sand is used and deemed broken offensively. Sand's offensive potential lies in sand rush (possibly sand force, but for some reason no one notices the ability of LO sand force dugtrio) so I'll cover the two sand rushers available in the tier.

    Sandslash:
    75 HP /100 Atk /110 Def / 45 SAtk / 55 SDef / 65 Spd
    Offensively, 100 base atk isn't stellar for sweeping teams, he gets swords dance to make up for it but still. Also, ground isn't a stellar offensive type in NU, sure it hits stuff neutrally but there aren't many weaknesses and there are even a few resistances, coupled with 100 Atk it doesn't quite score the OHKOs it needs to be considered a dangerous sweeper in the tier. Also, even with sand rush it finds itself needing heavy investment in speed to outspeed some of the faster pokemon in the tier. His movepool allows for good neutral coverage with EQ/knock off/stone edge and the like, but as I said his attack stat is too low to be considered a threat off neutral hits.

    Stoutland:
    85 HP / 110 Atk / 90 Def / 45 Satk / 90 SDef / 80 Spd
    It has a higher attack stat off the bat, but lacks any means to boost it aside from work up (which is terrible). He can use either work up or LO or both to try and sweep but they tend to fall short of various OHKOs and LO along with general damage from rocks/attacks cut its sweep rather short. It's best bet lies in a CB revenge killer set imo, which can deal heavy blows but one again doesn't quite sweep, however it is a potent cleaner late game. Also, many ghost types (especially ghost) can stand in the way of a sweep, so can rock or steel types as stoutland often can't afford to use the wrong move/the rest of the team can take the coverage move.
    Imo Stoutland's potential lies outside of sand, with a CB set focusing on retaliate, as with scrappy it's coverage gets remarkably more powerful (super power/retaliate) and CB retaliate can put big dents in walls or checks (and with some offensive pressure keep that damage unhealed) for some faster sweeper to finish off later.

    Overall I don't think sand is broken as a play style, defensively it is hindered by common weaknesses and the duration nerf this gen while offensively both sand rush users have shortcomings in either low stats, bad coverage or inability to boost their stats.

    Bulk
    Hippowdon's bulk is a big selling point, and is reason enough to use it (as can be seen, some people run it without sandstream just because it is bulky). A big HP stat gives him good general bulk, slack off gives him durability and his typing isn't too bad in terms of weaknesses (on the physical side) and he has the movepool to abuse said bulk by setting rocks, using sand's passive damage to stall, whirlwinding, toxic stalling etc.

    Hippowdon's physical defense is also pretty high, coupled with his HP stat it makes him a formidable physical wall, as has been shown/said many times when hippowdon has been discussed. It often takes a high attack stat and a super effective hit or high BP STAB move to take him down on the physical side. However, I'd like to point out NU has an abundance of pokemon with high base attack stats who have been neglected in other tiers simply because of their speed stat (which is good enough to outpace hippowdon, in most cases) with the likes of hariyama, druddigon, sawk among others being capable of scoring a 2HKO. Even if they don't technically 2HKO, but fall short by a few % or they just deal around 50% in general, Hippowdon wont be very comfortable switching into them because even if he wins he'll be at low HP.

    Hippowdon's special defense is somewhat lackluster by comparison, and is much more prone to super effective hits from the water and grass types in the tier, and even ice types/ice typed coverage moves. Most special attackers either have the raw power or a super effective moves to break through or put pressure on hippowdon. Looking at the usage stats, every possible special attacker (magneton, noivern, typhlosion, virizion, milotic, seismitoed) with the exception of possibly slurpluff can 2HKO hippowdon or at the very least hippowdon wont feel comfortable switching in.

    Also, in contrast to his great bulk, his attack while not being bad is often uninvested and completely reliant on one move which means he presents little threat offensively and can be set up fodder.

    Rocks
    The reason I put this here as a separate section to 'bulk' was that I felt it needed special attention. Currently, hippowdon is possibly the bulkiest and most durable hazard setter in NU, which is cool and all, except for the fact that the spinners with the possible exception of hitmontop are no where near as durable, and even hitmontop finds itself struggling to keep up in long matches or in general. Plus, hitmontop kinda sucks outside of spinning. Hippowdon completely throws off the balance of spin and setting, since he is many times bulkier and more durable (mostly thanks to slack off) than the tier's spinners, which can make running a spinner a wasted slot in some matches, especially if the hippowdon team runs a spin blocker, then not only do you have to spin but you have to outlast hippowdon of all things to keep rocks up. Sure, there is defog, but defog users aren't much more durable (shiftry will never outlast hippowdon, and skuntank is even weak to hippowdon) and also remove your own hazards which can be just as much of a hindrance as having your opponent set up theirs. I have a feeling with hippowdon gone the ballance between spinning and setting will be better, which in turn makes things weak to SR more viable.

    Overall I'm not actually sure which way I'm leaning here, I don't think hippowdon is broken, or sand for that matter but I do think the gap between him and the spinners in the tier is too great, and he doesn't really seem like a pokemon which belongs in NU, then again NU this gen has and has seen a lot of former OU/UU pokes.

    I'm leaving my vote on the fence for the moment, waiting to see the arguments of others
     
  5. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    So yes Trak is absolutely right. Hippowdon as a wall/bulky mon whatever wasn't the point of this suspect. But if you think that part is broken, then go for it.

    So I'll discuss Sand a little.

    Trak outlined the two abusers of Sand Rush. Being Sandslash and Stoutland, the primary one being Stoutland.

    So I'll talk about Sandslash first because fuck making sense m80s.
    Sandslash, as Trak said, has an "ok" attack stat. It's not bad by any means, especially with a decent STAB move like EQ. But it's nothing that's gonna be breaking through walls without some assistance. As correctly mentioned by Trak, that assistance does exist in the form of Swords Dance. But thanks to Sandslash's mediocre typing and rather unfortunate special bulk, finding setup opportunities isn't always easy. However its physical defense is something to be proud of, to the point that getting a Dance up on a physical attacker isn't overly difficult. After a Dance it's still not earth shattering to the point of KOing opposing Hippowdon or crazy shit like that, but it is undoubtedly powerful, especially LO variants. But LO SD Sandslash is brave and I personally wouldn't use it too often. So what can Sandslash do in real terms?
    Unboosted it's not particularly impressive but it's solid. Some offensively oriented mon can still handle it fairly well if it lacks Life Orb.
    252+ Atk Sandslash Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-C: 91-108 (37.7 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    After a boost it's a different matter. Offensive mon begin to become unable to check it with any reliability because it simply OHKOs most of them (or does with very little prior damage, even on the bulkier end of the scale).
    +2 252+ Atk Sandslash Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-C: 182-215 (75.5 - 89.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +2 252+ Atk Sandslash Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 44+ Def Scrafty: 232-274 (70 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    Sandslashes running Stone Edge can't beat Giga Drain or Leaf Blade Virizion. However I wouldn't hesitate to say that AAce is Viable even if entirely for Virizion.

    Sandslash isn't overly difficult for very defensive teams, Hippowdon itself is a hard wall until +6 and can phaze it out, it gets a 3KO with EQ as well. Milotic can take a single boosted hit if it's relatively healthy and Physdef, and fire back effectively. Defensive Rotom-C will always win as well.

    Now let's talk about Stoutland a little bit.
    Stoutland is thought of as the superior abuser. It's faster, stronger from neutral and has more useful all round bulk compared to Sandslash's physically oriented bulk. However it lacks Swords Dance or a STAB that can hit anything for Super Effective damage. That said it more than makes up for its STAB's shortcomings by having such a powerful base power move as a primary STAB, and by having an impressive move-pool to complement it. Stoutland quite literally has a move for anything, along with Pursuit for added fun. Stoutland can use a move slot on Retaliate as well to gain some extremely threatening power for one single turn. However I'm not a fan of it so I won't go on about it anymore.

    Choice Band Stoutland is the one I usually end up using, Life Orb is impressive but doesn't suit how I like to play Stoutland personally. My dislike of the set is in no way reflective of its efficacy. That goes for Retaliate too, although I would argue that set isn't as good from a different perspective. There is a third option in Expert Belt which can fake the choice and get an extra surprise KO on something like a Spiritomb that thinks it's safe coming in on Return/Superpower and gets Play Rough'd. Now let's get into numbers. Let's see that Rotom-C calc one more time
    252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-C: 229-271 (95 - 112.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    Oh dear.
    Let's try and help it out by giving it max defense
    252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-C: 168-198 (55.2 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    Oh dear oh dear,,,
    Ah but surely a resist of an offensive mon would be ok?
    252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magneton: 127-150 (41.7 - 49.3%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    Dang.
    252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Magneton: 84-100 (27.6 - 32.8%) -- 17.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
    Finally safe from the STAB,,, Lets hope it doesn't predict.

    There was more I wanted to say but it's 2am. T.B.C. (maybe)
     
  6. [OG] Swanna Lady

    [OG] Swanna Lady Y.......Yo......You.....YOU'RE FAT!

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    well, NU is one of my favorite tiers so I can probably say something. But this suspect just feels quiet and tricky. But EvilDingoRobot's calcs are a bit shaky. First of all, the Typhlosion fire blast calc is not really a good way to show a pokemon's bulk. No-one runs max special defense Hippowdon and Fire Blast is a Not very effective move, ALONG with being after leftovers recovery. It still 3HKOes. Same deal with the eruption calc. I just get the feeling that this POKEMON shouldn't be banned, but the ability sand stream should. Hippowdon doesn't ever work well for me and the only reason I ever will use it is to set up sand, which then becomes stupidly overpowered (Banded Stoutland). While Hippowdon's offensive capabilities are actually very high, no-one ever seems to use it for it's attack stat, always defense. Although I would like to see an offensive set.

    I say Don't ban Hippowdon but Ban Sand Stream
     
  7. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    While I understand why Hippo was suspected as a general sand suspect, I don't think Hippowdown itself is what needs to be banned here. The only sand abuser that I personally see as broken is Stoutland. I don't have much experience with Sandslash, but I've never had it do much to me, and I don't see it being all that great compared to Stoutland.

    As I said in the Potential suspect thread, Stoutland has perfect coverage with three moves (only Pawniard resists Normal + Dark in NU) and a very good attack stat for using that to its advantage. Thanks to the 80 Speed, Stoutland can afford to run Adamant, which gives it about the same hitting power as Heracross. For whatever reason, some people seem to think that a Scrappy set is better than Sand Rush (????), but that's pretty much irrelevant when Sand Rush is so good. Stoutland has the power to threaten stall teams, with its ability to 2HKO things like Weezing, Vaporeon, Defensive Seismistoad, Golbat after Rocks, Miltank after rocks, and so on. Sand Rush gives Stoutland the much needed speed to threaten Offensive teams, while retaining the aforementioned stall breaking power. Stoutland also has good enough bulk to take those priority attacks that normally threaten fast sweepers, taking only about 50% from Fletchinder's Acro (which is about as powerful as NU priority is going to get).
    Stoutland's only real issues are the Choice reliance and the 4-7 turn "sweeping" limit that Sand places on you. The Choice reliance isn't all that big of a deal since Stoutland has great coverage to hit literally everything in the tier, and has more than enough bulk to be able to switch in and out of battle at least enough to net a few kills and wear down a wall.
    The Sand reliance is a larger issue, since 4-7 turns isn't a whole lot of time, and Stoutland does net a lot of 2HKO, but much fewer OHKOs. What does help this is Hippowdon's sheer bulk. Hippo is just hard to kill, and if you do kill it, you're probably in a very bad place to take on a raging Stoutland.

    I could go on about how Hippo is extremely fat and sets SR, but it's really far from "broken" with a multitude of things that it cannot win against on both sides of the spectrum (Sigilyph, Virizion, Rotom-C, etc). The support it supplies only really "breaks" one Pokemon (Stoutland), so there is no need to ban it on account of it's supporting potential. Since it isn't broken directly, and it's only breaking 1 Pokemon, I see no reason to ban Hippowdon.
     
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  8. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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