1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Guest, PO has ceased our separate tiering and adopted Smogon tiers for SM. More information and updates here.

    Dismiss Notice

[Monotype] Mega Mawile (Mawilite) Suspect

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Side Metagames' started by sulcata, Oct 21, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2012
    Messages:
    968
    Likes Received:
    744
    [​IMG]

    Discuss the effects of Mawilite (Mega Mawile) on the Monotype metagame and the possibility of banning it. Post intelligently based off of experience in the metagame. Posts based off theorymon risk forum infractions.

    Attempt to find the checks and counters (or lack thereof) for Mega Mawile as well as their impact and power in the metagame. Do not simply say "it's broken" or "it's not broken". Back up your arguments on why you think it should be banned or not.

    If a consensus is reached, the result will likely be implemented in the metagame. Happy suspecting.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2014
  2. E.T.

    E.T. METAMORPHOSIS! Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2013
    Messages:
    1,134
    Likes Received:
    1,176
    PO Trainer Name:
    E.T.
    I guess I'll go first. I have compiled a list of Pokemon from each type that I think could be checks or counters to Mega Mawile. I tried to choose Pokemon that could take a Play Rough on the switch and beat Mawile.

    Normal:
    Nothing wants to switch into a Play Rough.

    Fire: Arcanine, Heatran, Volcarona
    Volcarona no longer checks after SR, and Heatran only checks as long as Mawile doesn’t know Focus Punch/Brick Break.

    Fighting:
    Nothing wants to switch into a Play Rough.

    Water: Gyarados, Qwilfish, Rotom-W
    Gyarados only checks with intimidate, mega evolving on the Sucker Punch, and no SR.

    Flying: Gyarados, Gligar, Gliscor, Landorus-T

    Grass:
    Mega Venusaur can switch in, but can’t do much in return outside of HP Fire.

    Poison: Weezing, Nidoqueen, Qwilfish
    Weezing needs Fire Blast, and Nidoqueen needs defensive investment.

    Electric: Magnezone, Rotom-W, Rotom-H
    Only one Rotom form can be used on a team.

    Ground: Rhydon, Gligar, Gliscor, Landorus-T, Nidoqueen, Steelix, Pilowswine
    Rhydon and Pilowswine only work if Mawile doesn't know Iron Head.

    Psychic:
    Nothing wants to switch into Play Rough except Metagross and Bronzong, but they are KO’d by Sucker Punch before taking down Mawile.

    Rock: Rhydon, Magcargo
    These only work if Mawile doesn't know Iron Head. Magcargo would need to be offensive with Fire Blast, but offensive Magcargo is probably never used.

    Ice: Avalugg, Piloswine
    These are only reliable if Mawile doesn't know Iron Head.

    Bug: Scizor, Shedninja, Volcarona
    Scizor and Shedninja only work if Mawile doesn’t know Fire Fang, and Shedninja and Volcarona only work without SR.

    Dragon:
    Nothing wants to switch into a Play Rough.

    Ghost: Cofagrigus, Shedninja, Aegislash
    Cofagrigus could beat Mawile with Mummy + WoW and a recovery move, Aegislash only wins in Sucker Punch mind games.

    Dark:
    Nothing wants to switch into a Play Rough.

    Fairy: Granbull
    Granbull only works if Mawile doesn't know Iron Head. Klefki can also take Play Roughs, but can’t do much back.

    From this list, Normal, Fighting, Grass, Psychic, Dragon, and Dark are going to have a tough time beating Mega Mawile, and the other types are probably going to have trouble if they don’t have any of the few listed checks. Even some of the checks listed, such as Gyarados and Aegislash, are not very reliable, or they may not even be checks depending on Mawile's move set. I think the difficulty in countering Mega Mawile makes it too strong. I think that Mega Mawile needs to be banned from Monotype.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2014
  3. User Name

    User Name Life is a maze

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2010
    Messages:
    1,769
    Likes Received:
    3
    I just want to ask, why assume that so many of those types need to switch in? Fire, for example, should be able to OHKO Megwile with almost anything they have out, which also means Focus Punch can almost never be used against them and Sucker Punch will virtually always have to be used, and probably lead to a 1-to-1 at worst. Fighting doesn't mind Sucker Punch, so while Megwile can probably score at least one KO against them, she will also be heavily pressured in return. Dragon's coverage moves can likely dent or KO her before she can KO them. So on and so forth. The Intimidate will probably let Megwile survive the Pokemon it Mega Evolves on, but most of those types should be able to limit the damage by taking advantage of Megwile's reliance on Sucker Punch.

    As someone who only dips into Pokemon now and again nowadays, how do these types fare in checking Megwile, and where does Megwile usually get a safe switch-on on any of them?
     
  4. E.T.

    E.T. METAMORPHOSIS! Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2013
    Messages:
    1,134
    Likes Received:
    1,176
    PO Trainer Name:
    E.T.
    Sure, Fire can put pressure on Mawile, and Fighting resists Sucker Punch. But the types that can’t provide that constant pressure or resist Sucker Punch are subject to Mawile getting up a SD at some point and cleaning house. Dragon is an example that could fall victim to this since most Dragons have a chance to be flat out OHKOd by a +2 Sucker Punch. Also, taking advantage of the Sucker Punch reliance can be easier said than done when battling someone who makes good predictions. This is a reason why I was focusing on Pokemon that could take a Play Rough if the Mawile user predicts a switch.
     
  5. User Name

    User Name Life is a maze

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2010
    Messages:
    1,769
    Likes Received:
    3
    I did mention that Dragon should be one of those types that can provide that kind of pressure, as they usually run moves that hit Steel super-effectively, no? Intimidate does provide a buffer in many cases, admittedly.
    But again, you did go through the list of Pokemon that can switch into Megwile. Can you do the same for Pokemon that Megwile can switch into herself? Pokemon that Megwile can actually setup on in the first place is an important consideration, too. After all, for many types, it can be safer to simply straight-up attack than give Mawile a chance to setup.
     
    sulcata likes this.
  6. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2012
    Messages:
    968
    Likes Received:
    744
    I'm only going to talk about what I disagree with from E.T.'s post.
    Fire: Volcarona is OHKO'd by +2 Sucker Punch.

    Water: Rotom-W is OHKO'd without defensive investment and 2HKO'd with defensive investment by PR. The same applies to Gyarados (defensive v. offensive) even with Intimidate. Qwilfish is an OK option I guess, but it's really a poor Pokemon in general and needs to rely on Scald burns and Haze without reliable recovery. I guess you could dbond, but trades aren't great either.

    Flying: Gyarados I already mentioned. Landorus is 4HKO'd, so it can't switch in over the long term.
    0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 0 HP/0 Def Mega Mawile: 170 - 204 (70.5 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP/252 Def Gliscor: 375 - 442 (105.9 - 124.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    For these to be checks they'd need quite a bit of prior damage.

    Grass: M-Venu doesn't do anything back as you said and still takes a lot from Iron Head, which isn't as bad as you'd think if it's being used on a Mono Fairy team.

    Poison: Iron Head hurts most of the would be checks and counters. I think Tentacruel is still 3HKO'd by unboosted Iron Head/PR and forced to go for Scald burns, so I don't think there's anything decent here.

    Electric: What I said about Rotom-W before still stands. Rotom-H is ok, but Rotom-W is just about mandatory on Electric teams for the weaknesses it patches up, whereas Rotom-H opens a huge rock/water weakness which makes it harder to cover grounds, reducing the viability of its team drastically. Rotom-H also struggles with SubPunch, which is an amazing set on Fairy teams (probably the best for Fairy). Magnezone is ok, but it needs Choice Specs Timid to revenge Mawile, otherwise it's outsped.

    Rock: lol Magcargo. But yeah, no reliable recovery and generally being dead weight and counterproductive to most teams makes it a poor choice. Rhydon is weak to Iron Head as you said (again a surprisingly good option) and to Focus Punch (same for Magcargo actually), while having absolutely no recovery. I will admit that Rhydon is a decent team option though. If anything Rock's best answer would be Mega Aggron, but again, outside Rest, no reliable recovery and weak to Focus Punch or Fire Fang.

    Ice: Yeah Iron Head. Again better than you'd expect.

    Bug: Shedinja is unreliable in general due to residual damage, and there's Sucker Punch. Scizor can't do a whole lot back. I'm pretty sure Mawile outdamage with Play Rough or Sucker Punch (SP only working with speed investment). Volcarona again dies to +2.

    Ghost: What I said above about Shedinja. Cofag's Mummy activates after taking Huge Power boosted damage, so as a switch in it isn't too great.

    Fairy: If you're facing Steel you're sort of screwed either way. Against another Fairy team I've noticed it's literally "Who can keep their Mawile healthiest and switch it in the most?". As soon as Mawile is down, the game is over. The rest of the team usually plays very little of a role outside maybe Klefki trying to get lucky with Twave and Reflect.
    I think it should be banned as well, but I wanted to emphasize how a lot of these very few Pokes weren't very good checks/counters to begin with.


    Normal, Fighting, Water, Fairy, Dark, Dragon, Ghost, Poison, and Grass all become incredibly difficult to use in its presence and generally need to rely on misplays and carelessness of their opponent to get past Mega Mawile without losing half their team. Fire and Ground are the only ones that I think have no problem, which are not many at all. The rest I think can get ahead with some prediction, but it's slightly uphill.

    A lot of people seem to mention Iron Head as a second thought, but it gets around a lot of Mawile's would-be counters and has a nice 30% flinch with 100% accuracy. Generally Iron Head should only be used for coverage on Fairy though due to the redundancy on Steel and the coverage it provides.

    Mega Mawile isn't super pressured by Fighting due to Intimidate and can set up on (or choose the better route and spam PR) things like Terrakion, Scrafty, Breloom after sleep is used, Conkeldurr, etc. The list widens quite a bit if Mawile comes in after letting something faint (things like Keldeo and Mega Medicham), which gives a practically a free KO. 50/125/95 defenses are really great factoring in Intimidate and amazing Steel/Fairy typing for such a nuclear powerhouse. Fighting isn't the only type it can force switches and guarantee KOs against.

    Unstabbed Earthquakes and Fire Blasts from Dragons or otherwise always need set up or a Choice item to threaten an OHKO, unless it's Fire Blast off a fairly high attack stat like Hydreigon's (hi PR). Things like Kyurem-B, Kingdra (does not like sucker), and most intimidated dragons let Mawile do as it pleases. Pretty much a guaranteed KO every time the opponent loses a Pokemon.

    Mawile doesn't necessarily need to sweep in Monotype. Personally I enjoy using a SubPunch or All-out attacker set (something like PR/Iron Head/Sucker/Knock Off or some other coverage) because of that ability to take down a poke every time I lose one of my own, along with the ability to tank a lot of resisted hits. It has a total of 9 resistances, 2 immunities, and only 2 weaknesses. Its only 2 weaknesses, Ground and Fire, are pretty well covered by potential bulky teammates like Sylveon, Togekiss, Heatran, Skarmory, etc. The neutralities it has (and weaknesses to some extent) also need to be minded as Mawile can tank many of these behind Intimidate and threaten with 105 base attack Huge Power STABs, which OHKO a good majority of the Pokemon one could commonly think to use.

    edit: never noticed it got recover until celebi. pointed it out. It usually dies so quickly I never get to see it do anything lol.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2014
    E.T. likes this.
  7. Raducan

    Raducan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2013
    Messages:
    1,366
    Likes Received:
    1,135
    I support the ban of Mega Mawile mostly because of threatening presence against the majority of the team types.

    Due to the initial ability of Intimidate, Mawile can often come in on a physical attacker and force a switch. The combination of Play Rough + following Sucker Punch pretty guarantees a kill for most opposing types.

    Knock Off greatly hinders almost any Pokemon from performing its role. Even if Mawile can't break through a specific wall, it can damage it largely but cutting off its constant recovery (Leftovers), which eases the task of killing it.

    The great defensive typing and high defense stat of Mega Mawile also leaves it harder to kill with non-choiced neutral attacks.

    The use of Fire Fang or Focus Punch also helps out in catching Steel-type teams.

    Like sulcata said, Mawile's role isn't necessarily to sweep (although it is capable of doing so), it's more for breaking the opposing team as much as possible to make the remainder of the game easy to play.

    For the majority of the teams, switching into Mega Mawile is almost impossible, which makes it such a threat as an effective wallbreaker.
     
  8. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2013
    Messages:
    532
    Likes Received:
    130
    PO Trainer Name:
    SheerForceGatr/Bulba
    My problem with Mega Maw is that it is so difficult to switch into. Monotype is a lot more offensive than OU, are defensive cores are significantly more exploitable due to having to share the same type. Fire and Ground are the only two types that I believe can pressure Mawile consistently enough for it to be manageable. Most other types both lack good switch ins and have few mons that can actually threaten Mawile consistently enough to keep it off of the field.

    Mega Maw has a really bad habit of forcing the game into you take one I take one situations with is really unhealthy for the Monotype environment. In all honestly I don't even think the SD set is the best set for Mawile to run purely because of a lack of opportunities to set up, but even without setting up Mawile has a ridiculous attack stat that results in many 0hko's or 2hko's with Sucker Punch. The difficulty with Mawile is not preventing a sweep, but preventing it from removing a vital pokemon on your team. It is almost guaranteed a KO against every type which is a little ridiculous if you ask me, especially considering the severe lack of switch ins most types have.

    Also, @sulcata Magcargo gets Recover and Flame Body. Best Maw check imo (#sarcasm)
     
  9. Raducan

    Raducan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2013
    Messages:
    1,366
    Likes Received:
    1,135
    After talking to the other Side Meta leaders, we've decided to ban Mawilite from Monotype.

    Due to the lack of switch-ins into Mega Mawile's huge wallbreaking power, it almost always achieves a significant goal in the battle; greatly hindering chances to win against teams with it. The ban will likely be effect within 24 hours.

    Thanks for all the participation within this thread.
     
    E.T. likes this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.