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November + December + January ORAS UU Tier/Potential Suspects Discussion

Discussion in 'Gen 6 UU' started by meeps, Nov 1, 2014.

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  1. meeps

    meeps Well-Known Member

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    XY Tier Listings

    UU -> OU


    Magnezone 4.85016333333
    Mew 4.42797333333
    Umbreon 4.20373333333
    Slowbro 4.10435333333
    Terrakion 4.06232333333

    OU -> UU

    Donphan 3.5089
    Mawile 1.24970386667

    UU -> LU

    Honchkrow 3.91999666667
    Porygon2 3.61605
    Doublade 2.80677
    Diancie 1.70433333333

    LU -> UU

    Cloyster 6.3492
    Roserade 5.74035333333
    Tentacruel 4.70688666667
    Toxicroak 4.25528
    Ampharos 4.09098333333

    plently of popular and threatening pokemon leave the tier this month. magnezone was one of the most feared threats in the tier with excellent coverage and power while being able to keep momentum with volt switch. top defoggers and solid wall mew leaves the tier, making hazard control tougher in the tier. apparently umbreon is really good in ou so i guess it's reasonable that it moved up. with mew and umbreon moving up the nidos will fare very well in the tier. slowbro another excellent wall moves up which served as a solid check to numerous physical attackers. terrakion a popular lead sr user and all-around hard hitter leaves as well. the drops aren't too impressive other than donphan moving back which served as a decent spinner and electric check in the past, mawile probably won't be too impressive without mawilite.

    Like in the last period, the UU->LU drops and the LU/NU->UU rises are shown to catch the player's attention to some of the pokemon that have started to gone low-profile and once represented great powers in UU, like Heracross. I guarantee you they're all still fresh for use in the tier.

    You are encouraged to voice opinions about the new drops/rises in this thread, as well as potential suspects. In fact, those are the "only" two things we want you do to around here. Argumentation should be without backless theorymonning, ad hominem attacks or irrelevant pieces of information. Anyone that goes off the line will be infracted.
     
  2. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    We lost Mew, Mag, Terrak, Umbreon and Slowbro..all integral mons in UU. I guess Mawile makes up for it :[
    Victini, Fighting types and the Nidos I think are going to be really hard to deal with now and more centralizing when you're trying to build, and hazard control is going to be really annoying..we didn't even get Zapdos :[[[
    Pretty bad changes overall imo, greatly favoring HO playstyles which sucks cuz HO is already really strong in UU.
     
  3. somerandomguy

    somerandomguy Active Member

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    Heracross 4.12857 17968
    Heracross 4.61313 15494

    Medicham 4.87832 21231
    Medicham 7.31896 24582

    taken from september and october xy ou ranked stats, pretty sure they should be ou
     
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  4. -Mike-

    -Mike- hi

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    They are already OU in server.

    Not bad changes, but HO gets a great boost in 3 of the top stallmons leaving the tier.
     
  5. Proof

    Proof Well-Known Member

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    Thank god Mew is finally gone,, otherwise, no interesting drops. I like Slowbro, but I'd rather have both Slowbro and Mew gone than have Mew in the tier.
     
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  6. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    Kinda sad that Umbreon and Terrakion are gone.....

    On the other hand, Donphan re-entering is OK and Mawile is going to be a powerhouse.... Once it drops down to NU
     
  7. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    Salamencite banned from UU.
     
  8. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    Could we get a quickban or at least suspect on Metagrossite? Especially without Slowbro or Mew to even come close to countering it, that thing has such an amazing combination of power, speed, and bulk that it's almost like running an Uber legendary on your team.
     
  9. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    I know I talked about this before but Shadow Tag is still broken as fuck. With Mew, Slowbro, Zygarde and Umbreon leaving, balance has much fewer options when it comes to dealing with shit like Nidoking and Victini, so having their say AV Goodra or Arcanine get trapped forces them to heavily rely on revenge killing because they're going to need to sack every time Nido or Tini comes in which is really unhealthy. It's not easy to "play around" Goth whatever that means.

    It just being on your opps team means every time you bring in a Florges or something it's a 50/50 of double switch expecting Goth or stay in predicting your opp to predict your double switch. And that awful argument of "it's only good vs full stall" needs to stop. Full stall is almost never seen in XY UU because of how shitty it is now with 3 of the best walls gone, yet Florges is #2 in usage. Florges, Arcanine, Roserade, etc are not exclusive to stall, you basically almost always see one of those on standard balance and Goth traps all of them.
    CM Rest is the best Goth for trapping and the only one used, and it does its job perfectly. Physdef is the optimal set imo to come in easier vs Arcanine, Swampert, etc. If its coverage won't break through like vs Jirachi, it can just Rest PP Stall Rachi until it struggles and kills itself. And once Goth is done raping your wall, it's not easy to deal with a +6 +6 Physdef Gothorita unless you have a physical STAB SE move to finish it off.
    8 Atk Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gothorita: 85-102 (26.2 - 31.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
    0 Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gothorita: 70-84 (21.6 - 25.9%) -- 1.8% chance to 4HKO
    0 Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gothorita: 87-103 (26.8 - 31.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
    0 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Gothorita: 85-102 (26.2 - 31.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
    0 SpA Vaporeon Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Gothorita: 72-85 (22.2 - 26.2%) -- 9% chance to 4HKO
    0 Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gothorita: 60-72 (18.5 - 22.2%) -- possible 5HKO
    0 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gothorita: 52-63 (16 - 19.4%) -- possible 6HKO
    4 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Gothorita: 73-87 (22.5 - 26.8%) -- 25.6% chance to 4HKO
    0 SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Gothorita: 69-82 (21.2 - 25.3%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO

    For the record, I think the best coverage to run on it is probably Psyshock/Energy Ball/CM/Rest. I find this thing really unhealthy. Balanced, balanced offense, semi stall, full stall, etc; these playstyles will end up losing something to Gothorita. The only playstyle that's relatively safe is HO and even then Gothorita can trap something like Toxicroak, Draco-locked Dragons like Hydreigon, etc.
     
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  10. LilOu

    LilOu Topdawg

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    ^ This. I came here to write some stuff about Shadow Tag, but ThatMushroom did it better than I could have (I guess). So, yeah. I'm in favor of a Shadow Tag suspect.
     
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  11. MUMU

    MUMU DNR KILLED IT

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    Even with next to no usage, Gothorita might be worth a test actually, since it tends to trap key Pokemon at times and not all of them can safely run shed shell because at times they actaually need the leftovers healing.
     
  12. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    I agree fully about Shadow Tag. While I do agree that banning Gothorita would fix the problem, I think the real problem is 100% shadow tag.

    Imagine a Gothitelle without Shadow Tag. That thing is a relatively decent psychic type special tank, probably worthy of a 3.5% usage in NU. Tag-less Gothorita isn't even that mediocre, it probably wouldn't even see usage in a tier like Middle Cup (why doesn't that exist yet?).

    Now, I know there's a pretty heavy sentiment against "ban the ability, not the pokemon", but there is one major difference between the sisters and other banned pokemon. That is that every other pokemon is broken because of how well they accomplish their tasks. Kyurem was banned because it was just plain invincible. Volc, Manaphy, and Garde were banned for setting up too easily and being too powerful upon setup. Digg, Megacham, and Megacross all got banned for being uncounterable and overcentralizing. And Scolipede and Deo-D got banned for being too good at too much stuff.

    Notice nowhere in among those was the problem being what they did, just in how well they did it. For example, being a hard and fast hitter isn't busted (Thundurus-T), but being as good of one as Megacham is. However, being able to trap and kill walls at your leisure as well as setup and potentially get another kill or even sweep IS busted. It doesn't matter how good of a pokemon is at that task, being able to do it at all is problematic for the meta.

    All that however is just theoreticals. The real thing is that with suspects and bannings we want to have the banlist as small as possible while still maintaining a healthy meta. At this point, it's safe to say that the best action to achieve that goal is to ban Shadow Tag and unban Gothitelle. The positives of this decision will be to:
    1. Allow Gothitelle to be used in UU (although it probably won't be all that good except in lower tiers).
    2. Fix the problem that Gothorita poses.
    3. Nip all potential problems with Wob or even possibly Gothita in the bud.
    4. Keep the banlist as short, concise, and easy to understand as possible.
     
  13. NananaBatman

    NananaBatman Well-Known Member

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    Dead thread, but I agree with the posts above me since I've had personal experience vs Shadow Tag, mainly Gothorita. I play balance and even though I don't run a Florges it's trapped my support Roserade and my opponents Thundy-T and Mega Blastoise just killed something every time it came in. The set I faced was also CM Rest but it ran Sleep Talk over a coverage move. The playstyle I see the most is balanced tbh and Goth traps what it wants on those teams. I'd really like to see a suspect of this so we can move on to broken ORAS stuff, but I feel like we should remove Goth first because it's been a cancer for a while now.
     
  14. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    Can we just get a Shadow Tag suspect or something, that's all this thread's been about and we've been talking bout Shadow Tag for like the past several months. You guys said you'd suspect Gothitelle first and if people still found problems with it, Shadow Tag would get suspected next. It's been like 6 months already and it's still broken as fuck, can you guys just suspect it or at least give us a response, it seems like you don't even pay attention to this thread which is why it keeps dying.
     
  15. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Thundurus-T

    Thundurus-T has been a premier threat in UU for a long-ass time and it continues to be one now. It has a colossal 145 Special Attack stat and a not bad 101 speed stat. Its bulk isn't anything to write home about but it's not awful. Of course, as we all know, it has access to Agility and Nasty Plot to turn its already impressive stats into something ridiculous.
    Its 3 main sets are
    Agility (Life Orb)
    Nasty Plot (Life Orb / Lefties)
    and Double Dance. (Lefties / Life Orb)

    Personally I think its best set is Double Dance Lefties (or even Zap Plate), but they are all very very good.

    After an Agility, Thundurus' can basically forget about being out sped by anything. So all it has to worry about are OHKOs. Against many offensive teams this isn't an issue most of the time. Thundurus can late game sweep many teams given a single turn of set up, which, given its typing, ability and tendency to cause switches, isn't all that hard to come by even against offense. It has a few offensive checks which I will address later.

    After a Nasty Plot, Thundurus will tear through Stall rather efficiently. All of its checks will break down under the wrong third move of coverage, be it Focus Blast or Grass Knot. (Although Grass Knot is basically only for AV Rhyperior (lol), Swampert and a more consistent kill on normal Rhyperior).

    Of course, Double Dance sets will have to forego a move of coverage, but for the ability to clean house on both defensive and offensive teams a reasonable amount of the time.

    Checks:
    Agility: This set isn't all that hard to check defensively. Florges and Snorlax will do the job well enough. As well as Swampert for non-GK variants, anything that's pretty specially bulky will be able to take something and get off an attack back, and its use of Life Orb can make wearing it out a lot easier. However its offensive checks are very limited. One that instantly comes to mind is Mega Zam, for Trace. It forces Thundurus to use a coverage move to kill it, that's usually HP Ice, but if Thundurus does run Dark Pulse, then Zam is not a problem.

    Nasty Plot: This set is very difficult to check if you're running a defensive team. After a NP, Thundurus OHKOs a significant portion of everything. Bulkier special defensive mon can still live a hit, such as Florges. But the vast majority can't OHKO Thundurus. Leftovers sets especially are problematic for more defensive teams. Set dependent checks exist, like Sdef Rhyperior, which hates Grass Knot, or SDef Hippo which can live all but Grass Knot (although not very cleanly).

    Double Dance: This set forfeits a coverage move for the ability to take on offensive and defensive teams on the same set. As mentioned before. Personally this is my favourite set. It's extremely useful as an offensive tool to pressure the opponent no matter what their team. You sometimes need predictions to get it in, like a double in with a Blastoise or a predicted Volt Switch, but regardless of that I find it extremely useful in almost all matchups I have to play. With the rise of Magnezone to OU, this set no longer struggles to hit everything common for decent damage. Lanturn and Eviolite Magneton still wall it but they're fairly uncommon.

    The checks to Thundurus aren't particularly numerous, but there are some.
    Florges: Requires a SpA drop to beat NP Thundurus.
    Snorlax: Needs AV To Survive NP Focus Blast, but other Thundurus sets aren't a problem.
    Sdef Rhyperior: Fears Grass Knot and NP Focus Blast. Other than that it's ok.
    Swampert: Fears Grass Knot. Other than that it's fine.
    Trace Mega Zam: Needs to come in after something died, or to be already evolved and predict a Tbolt. Only really fears the uncommon Dark Pulse. But has to be over 45% or so after hazards to live LO HP Ice from an agility set.
    Sdef Pory2: Fears NP Focus Blast, but overall not a bad shout.
    Sdef Cresselia: It actually still walls it at +2 if Timid and lefties. Not that it can even 3KO it in return though. Complete setup bait.
    Sdef Lanturn: If you're using it in this tier, you deserve to not lose to Thundurus. Well done.

    So yeah I think Thundy-T needs to go. Of course through the suspect process !!!
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2014
  16. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    I would personally also support a Thundy suspect. I personally run Sludge Wave on the NP set to make it a Florges lure as well as an awesome all around wall-breaker. It can very easily win games by itself (although I run it in tandem with Goth, so that might have a bit more to do with it) when played right and pretty much the only teamstyle that doesn't need to kill it with fire is balanced due to its unique speed tier and epic power output.
     
  17. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    Unless I remembered incorrectly, the very reason why you want a Shadow Tag suspect/ban is because it destroys stall and to a certain extent trapping glues of balance teams, and honestly it's not just because of Goth that causes Stall to not be viable in the tier. The main reason why stall atm isn't really that good despite being blessed with Mega Sableye is because there are so many hard-hitting nukes in the tier. I'm talking about incredible offensive powerhouses like Mega Metagross/Mega Gallade/Mega Swampert/Mega Diancie/Thundurus-Therian which 2hko pretty much every mon on stall, and if anything these 4 should go first. Running Gothorita means you kinda start the game 5-6 vs offense because you are simply overwhelmed by power and can't trap anything because the entire team has enough offensive pressure to beat Goth. Wobb is great vs offense and I liked using Healing Wish or SubPass Lopp+Wobb, simply an aids combination that tears apart offense but Wobb is rare and barely even mentioned.

    Mega Metagross: Holy shit do I really need to write a paragraph on how good this thing is? Mega Metagross definitely should be banned because it is just so strong atm, excellent base 145 attack and a very precise ability which boosts all of the moves it needs (Meteor Mash/Grass Knot/Ice Punch etc), incredible bulk that rivals even defensive walls on both sides and makes it extremely difficult to revenge-kill, base 110 speed which is incredibly fast even in the current meta, outrunning every single nuke in the tier and speed ties with Mega Gallade/Mega Diancie which is huge. A incredibly expansive movepool with everything it ever needs is also simply icing on cake.

    Mega Gallade: Mega Medicham on steroids. An excellent speed tier, great special bulk, able to boost its attack even further with SD and Knock Off to hit psychics. Lol if Mega Medicham was deemed broken because it just hit so stupidly hard, it's pretty much a no-brainer that Mega Gallade should be banned.

    Mega Diancie: 160/160 offenses, Diamond Storm/Moon Blast/Earth Power hits everything in the tier for neutral coverage bar Bronzong but that shit is so rare anyway so w/e.
     
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  18. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    You are remembering wrong. Shadow Tag needs to be banned because of the trapping of walls, but the war on Stall is only a small piece of the reason. In fact, with so many new Megas and other offensive powerhouses like Thundy, Hydreigon, and Crawdaunt, Goth actually becomes more and more broken. The reason why is simple: Goth excels at trapping what is probably the only counter on your team to these pokes. Even the most offensive of teams still usually has some type of pokemon that Goth can trap, whether it be Chesnaught, Florges, non-Dark Pulse Blastoise, non-VS Forretress, or anything of that nature. The big problem here is that after Goth eliminates say Florges, now your team has nothing to prevent Hydreigon from putting a severe dent in your team every time it comes in. And it can also tailor its moveset to take down whatever specific threats you want to be gone. If your main sweeper has a problem with bulky waters, go go gadget Thunderbolt. Psychic types got you down? Shadow Ball? Stuff that is weak to Psyshock anyway? Run some random filler move or even Sleep Talk.

    There's also plenty of offensive threats that can't deal with it due to either simply having a type disadvantage or being choice locked into Overheat or Draco Meteor or any not very effective Attack. And if it does manage to take down that one wall of yours, your offensive team now has to deal with a pokemon with pretty strong physical bulk and insane special bulk and attack.
     
  19. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    No I wanted a Shadow Tag (mainly Goth tbh) suspect is because it allows the user to brainlessly trap key walls (like Chesnaught, #11 in usage) on the opponent's side of the field, opening the way for things previously kept in check by it (like Crawdaunt) to rip apart teams. I haven't used stall in like 2 months, I don't find it fun anymore and now it's complete ass with Mew/Umb/Bro gone and shit like Gallade and Diancie floating around. I've been using just balance but I do have one semi-stall team. The fact that Goth has a good match-up vs 2/3 playstyles in the tier (stall and balanced) makes sticking it on a team worth it. I wouldn't say it's complete useless vs offense either because it can come in on stuff like Draco-locked Hydreigon or something like that, but it is much harder to use vs HO, regardless I think that the fact that it makes running walls a handicap in this meta with insane threats like Diancie and Metagross is super unhealthy. There's a mon that handles both of them too in Bronzong (6% usage) but Goth can trap that as well. Again, it's not because it makes stall ass, stall is already ass with these savages running around, it's because top walls like Florges and Chesnaught which are very common on balance are just removed from the game and they can't do anything about it.

    In regards to the other mons mentioned, I agree with all of them as potential suspects. Thundy-T is something I've posted about before so I still agree it's banworthy.
    DN covered the three that I feel are the most broken new Megas but I'd like to add rain and Mega Sableye as two other potential suspects.

    I feel like with Mega Pert out, it gave people a reason to start spamming rain because it wasn't very popular in XY UU. Now it's really popular, with Toed at like 7%. I don't think Swampert itself is broken, I just think it coupled with shit like Specs Kingdra makes it really tough to deal with. Still not fully convinced it's broken though but worth looking into.

    Mega Sableye is another mon I'm not sure is 100% broken, but it's just really hard to break. Magic Bounce means you can't even put a timer on it with Toxic on a predicted switch meaning the best you're going to get is the 12% per turn from burn or level 1 poison. Its typing is amazing and the best way to take it down is with a really strong physical attack like Band V-create, which doesn't even kill the standard physdef CM set and Victini dies to +2 Dark Pulse after the V-create drops. At +2 SpDef a Moonblast from Florges only does like 35%, it just sets up on a lot and is pretty hard to break, so it's another mon I feel worth looking at. I feel like Diancie is keeping it in check though, but it's probably going to get banned soon anyway.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2014
  20. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    So Rain is thing.... anyone wanna talk about it?
    It gets excellent setters in Politoed, Tornadus-I/T, and Klefki, and even better abusers in Mega Pert, Kingdra, Kabutops, Thundurus-T, (Crawdaunt?).

    With a really good Electric poke in Thundurus-T (and good Grass types in Shaymin and Celebi) those Water types, namely Vappy, Jellicent, and Milotic, are no longer top tier defensive threats. I think Damp Rock needs to be banned for sure. I say Damp Rock over Politoed or any of the setters because 8 turns is simply too many to be able to abuse. 5 Turns becomes a lot more manageable defensively. Plus banning Toed doesn't stop teams from running Torny-I and Klefki with Prankster Rain Dance. P2 still remains a solid answer, but at the end of the day Rain teams have a significant advantage over Offense, Balance, and Stall.
     
  21. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Mega Metagross:
    Shedinja 7.84762 366
    u fuckin' wot m8?

    Rain:
    Now rain is interesting. It's more common than it used to be and with Mega Swampert at its disposal it is also very threatening. Previously Kingdra was by far the best rain abuser (but Kabutops is a threat), and it was very good. But it was only one mon with a middling set of stats, it could only do so much. But now rain has 2 incredibly powerful abusers on two different sides of the spectrum. Wearing out rain is now just either costly enough to let you lose to the other team members, or just straight up not possible without resorting to Shedinja (see Metagross). So let's hope rocks aren't around.

    Mega Sableye.
    Well I think this thing gives an advantage to defensive play-styles beyond what it should in the OU meta. The UU meta has more things that do better against it like Victini and Chandelure (to an extent) and Hydreigon and Florges. I mean those mon are obviously open for OU use but they're not nearly as common. I don't think it's quite as cancerous for UU as it is for OU currently just because of how the metagame plays out and that UU doesn't have Blissey yet. But I do think it's more than worth a suspect.

    Mega Gallade:
    Idk, it's a bit like Metagross but with less power and bulk in exchange for Swords Dance and Knock Off (Also Bulk-Up and Taunt n_n). I think it's probably broken y'know, especially if Mega Sab goes the way it should.
     
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  22. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    Gallade is a pokemon I really hate in that its lack of resistances means it can be difficult to use (I like using it with Whimsicott support though), while its absurd power makes it extremely difficult to wall- you've basically got Dark/Ghosts, Granbull and random bulky psychics like Cresselia. A lot of things that usually check fighting types don't do enough to it while getting smacked by boosted Psychic STAB or Knock Off. Still unsure on whether its broken, since its similar to Thundy-T in that it has a tough time finding opportunities to set up, but unlike Thund-T it does have hard counters. It's just tough building defensive teams without slapping Sableye onto them, in part because of this threat
     
  23. NananaBatman

    NananaBatman Well-Known Member

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    Idk if any1 still reads this, but like the above posters, I'd push for a mega gallade suspect (I'd also push for mega sab/mega diancie/mega lop suspects, but they're all rising to ou through usage so I'm not going to bother with them). I think its speed and power are too much for the tier. While most sets consist of sd/psychic stab/fightning stab/filler, gallade has quite a few options. Sub is a good one, allowing gallade to set up on weak special attackers (its special bulk is notable), and theres even will-o-wisp to cripple possible revengers. Bulk up sets can be pretty annoying to deal with, and taunt can be useful to break stall. All-in-all, I think its sheer power and speed are too much for the uu tier and I believe it needs to go.
     
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