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November + December ORAS NU Tier/Potential Suspects Discussion

Discussion in 'Gen 6 NU' started by Weavile, Nov 1, 2014.

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  1. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    XY LU->ORAS NU
    Cofagrigus
    Klefki
    Tangrowth
    Zoroark

    XY NU->ORAS LU
    Druddigon
    Dugtrio
    Hitmonchan
    Hitmontop
    Rotom-H
    Smeargle

    Some interesting drops.
    Especially with a loss of 2 decent Zoroark checks and the gaining of a Zoroark.
    Of course the one most people are likely noting is Klefki. Welcome to spike stacking (also lost 2 spinners in the Hitmons)
    RIP Potential suspect Druddigon.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 3, 2014
  2. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    Klefki and Zoroark are going to be monsters in this tier. The first is an amazing support mon that I honestly feel should be UU but whatever. The other one is an amazing mixed attacker that often forces prediction wars largely in it's user's favor.

    I'm also not a fan of Tangrowth being here. This thing will form a massively awesome core with stuff like Milotic and it'll be stupid hard to kill off.

    Coffy is meh. Knock off is everywhere, not too many mons here are dependent on their abilities, and Zoroark blows the shit out of it.
     
  3. Daybreak

    Daybreak can't touch this

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    LU playerbase, why u do this to us. This tier change is going to be interesting for sure but the fact that we lost 2 spinners and gained klefki absolutely sucks. Meh we'll see how it goes. Zoroark will be pretty interesting considering we had it at XY NU release. Wonder how it will fit into this meta. Tangrowth might be too fat but not quite sure yet. Looks similar to amoonguss imo. Cofag is cool but looks annoying to hyper offense.

    YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY SMEARGLE IS GONE

    Also ORAS comes out soon so tier is definitely going to be shaken up after that.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2014
  4. Linkin Karp

    Linkin Karp Reformed™

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    Klefki / Cofa / Slaking / 3 special walls.
    RIFP XY NU.
     
  5. topah

    topah Active Member

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    so...whens vaporeon rising?
     
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  6. Trakyan

    Trakyan Member

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    Never!

    Hmm.. I expect zoroark to drop, i believe it did so at the end of BW NU. Tangrowth is a surprise. I'm glad the pokemon that moved up did so, since they werent getting the usage they deserved here.

    I dont like tangrowth being in the tier, I imagine it will be like a better goodra, and the addition of spikers and t spikers, and a spinblocker, with the loss of our only hazard resistant spinners (except for sandslash, hopefully he stays with us) when we already have hippo in the tier will make hazard stack much easier, and spinning all the harder.
     
  7. Nicehat

    Nicehat PO client damage calc: preview.tinyurl.com/o8e7hss

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    Slurpuff is super broken in ORAS NU, gaining Drain Punch pushes the Belly Drum set over the top because while before one of the best ways to deal with it was to weaken it while it set up and then revenge it with priority, Drain Punch means that it can easily heal back up after setting up, putting it out of range. It easily beats the vast majority of the tier 1v1 after a Belly Drum, and its solid typing + bulk + Sitrus Berry means that it can usually set up fairly easily on resisted attacks or non-powerhouse neutral attacks

    It definitely has a few counters (Steelix, Bronzong, Klefki, etc) but it's basically the Xerneas of NU atm since it crushes almost literally everything else and I don't think that that's a healthy kind of Pokemon to have in a non-Ubers tier. While before it was possible to deal with it with priority if you could damage or Toxic it while it set up, Drain Punch changes the battle to "have a healthy counter or lose".

    P.S..: please don't suspect Belly Drum or Sitrus Berry or Unburden instead
     
  8. SongSing

    SongSing KILLL

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    chatter is countered by disable stop whining
     
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  9. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    No actually I'd much rather suspect belly drum, sitrus berry and unburden so we can keep slurpuff in the tier ^_^

    I can only assumse that was a lil sly dig at wantin sand rush banned not Stout, I dont think its necessary for me to point out the obvious differences.

    I can personally support a suspect but will need to discuss it further with Co leaders first.

    Also looking for opinions on the various megas which have recently joined us
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2014
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  10. Linkin Karp

    Linkin Karp Reformed™

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    Chatot is a joke, I hope...

    The Slurpuff suspect I'm seconding. Before it was already ridiculously strong, not to say broken with Return as its only coverage move. Now it can blast through the Steels that walled it before, regain even more HP, get near-perfect coverage save for Haunter (which still dies) and Honedge and become an unstoppable juggernaut that can 6-0 teams by itself. It's no question that Slurpuff needs to go, with its new movepool it has exactly one counter (Honedge) with really questionable viability.

    But rather I'd go for the Unburden option, that way Slurpuff can stay in the tier (in which it fills an unbelievably big role even with its other ability) while Sceptile is going to leave anyway. That way we'll also make sure no Unburden user will ever break NU again, should there be one. Plus complex bans sound smogon-ish and thus, cool. Or while we're at it, we should ban Sitrus Berry, because tbh what else uses Sitrus Berry? I've never liked Trevenant anyway.
     
  11. Suigetsu

    Suigetsu Active Member

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    Sceptile is OP. Needs to go. Just too fast and strong, plus it beats loads of common threats and some scarfers outright with Giga Drain, Dpulse and Focus Blast. Behind a sub it takes out at least 3 mons per game for me.

    Beedrill I'm fine with staying, but haven't seen much else than these two.
     
  12. Linkin Karp

    Linkin Karp Reformed™

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    Wait. I just realized the new Megas have actually stayed NU.
    What the flying fuck. Quickban Beedrill, Sceptile and Altaria from LU and Pidgeot, Glalie and Gallade from NU please.
    PLEASE.
     
  13. Suigetsu

    Suigetsu Active Member

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    Why post about LU in the NU thread?

    Imo Glalie and Steelix should stay NU, but Sand Force Steelix sounds scary. Won't it work if Sand Stream is banned, nerfing stoutland and keeping all 3 (Mega Steel, Stout and Hippo) in the tier?
     
  14. Daybreak

    Daybreak can't touch this

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    Reminder to everyone that megas just got released on the server. Please use them and test them before actually saying "please quickban this threat it's too good." We realize that nu is chaotic atm with the release of them but do not theorymon from base stats and moves.
     
  15. Linkin Karp

    Linkin Karp Reformed™

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    So.
    The people who run this are too impatient to wait for the forming of new tiers, instead they take the old XY tiers and just rename them. This isn't something like BW2. The shift between ORAS and XY has made a great selection of NU 'mons OU viable, in addition to the new move tutors that occur every generation. Still, they need to keep the old tiers just because they want to play NU.
    At the same time, the tier leaders are like "dont quikban somthin be4 oars is out!!!!!!!1111111".
    (And I suppose the ladder won't even be reset in May 2015, when the OU changes have finally arrived down here.)
    How am I supposed to interpret this?
     
  16. Suigetsu

    Suigetsu Active Member

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    How are new tiers supposed to form if you don't start them off? Of course they're going to be identical to start off with, you cant ban off of theorymons then release the tier.

    Now that more mons are viable,they should be tested to see if they should stay or move up, you can't just say "X is going to get Y lets just ban it before it's even tested". The old tiers are kept, that sentence makes no sense to me.

    When trying to convey a point I'd advise you didn't mock the people you're making a point to, and also keep in mind that what they're doing is sensible. You cant quickban something without it being tested just like any other mon may be suspected. You don't start a suspect discussion as soon as you hear a new move for a mon, you start it when you find out that it gives the Pokémon a ridiculous advantage.

    TLDR: As Daybreak said before, you can't just quickban based on theorymons. What's the point of judging a book by its cover, and calling a mon OP when you haven't even put your theory into practice?
     
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  17. Nicehat

    Nicehat PO client damage calc: preview.tinyurl.com/o8e7hss

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    All the new OP Pokemon will rise in 2 months when they get usage in OU/UU/LU, it's Pokemon falling from OU to NU that takes forever not the other way around.

    Just leaving it the way it is will probably get a decent NU starting tier in 2 months, while completely scrapping tiers and starting from scratch means it'll take 6 months to get a starting point for NU.

    I don't even think any of the new megas are as instawin as Slurpuff which is kind of ridiculous (though I have zero experience with Mega Sceptile and that poke could easily be super broken too)
     
  18. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Hello.
    Exactly. We don't want to stall the ability to play lower tiers for half a year in this subgen. Guilty as charged m8.
    We don't quickban things before ORAS is out because people were saying Mega Lopunny would be a top tier UU threat. It is not going to be so, your theorymon, no matter how all knowing you think it might be, is nothing more than its name would suggest. So saying "ban X it's brokun!!!!!!!11111111" is based on 0 evidence or experience which we base our suspects on. The only reason Mega Salamence was quickbanned in UU is because of how good we knew it was from ORAS' existence on PS for a few days prior and a couple days on PO itself. It's not even theorymon.

    The ladder gets reset after a major metagame shift (or a set if suspects are done in series, like they will be now probably, I mean ORAS NU is a new ladder completely)

    You're supposed to interpret this by realising that ORAS sub-gen is not a large enough shift to warrant a restart of the entire tiering process and that doing so would stagnate this community and its tiering by months and that it will be significantly quicker, easier and equally as effective to do it the way we are currently. We're probably going to be banning/suspecting things rapidly and frequently soon.
     
  19. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    Slight nitpick, but didn't Salamencite get banned from UU because it got quickbanned from OU? Not that that fact invalidates your point.

    On a different note, I feel Mega Altaria needs to go. That thing can run physical, special, mixed, 4 attacks, SubRoost, Sub DD, and 3 attacks with Roost, DD, Defog, and plenty of other moves. It has the exact right combination of power, speed, bulk, and typing where all of the things that can take down 2 or 3 sets fall to 2 or 3 others. Almost nothing but mixed wall steels can hope to take all of its STABs alone, and very few of them (like the otherwise garbage Probopass) can hard counter it.
     
  20. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    It got quickbanned from UU a few hours prior to getting quickbanned from OU, but they where both during the same day.

    Not going to comment on any ORAS NU stuff as I haven't looked into the tier quite yet and don't plan to do so until after the LTT, but just posting to clear up potential confusion in the above post.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2014
  21. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Heyo a real post.

    Mega Altaria:
    [​IMG]
    Dragon/Flying -> Dragon/Fairy
    HP: 75 -> 75
    Attack: 70 -> 110
    Defense: 90 -> 110
    Special Attack: 70 -> 110
    Special Defense: 105 -> 105
    Speed: 80 -> 80
    Ability: Natural Cure -> Pixilate

    So, Mega Altaria. With some impressive boosts to its offensive stats and a notable boost to its defense it becomes a notably better Pokémon, obviously. Moreover it gains the Fairy typing over its original Flying. Which is, of course, very positive for Altaria. This leaves it with, 4 weaknesses (Steel/Ice/Poison/Fairy) and and 8 useful resistances/immunities (Fire, Water, Grass, Electric, Dark, Fighting, Dragon, Bug). Perhaps the most notable part of Altaria's Mega Evolution is its ability, Pixilate. Pixilate gives it an extremely powerful STAB move on either side of the spectrum, with either Return or Hyper Voice. With the lack of immunities to the Fairy type, it also allows Altaria to run, what I think, is it's most threatening set in this metgame; mono-attacking Dragon Dance. Which looks something like this;

    Altaria (M) @ Altarianite
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 216 HP / 252 Atk / 40 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Dragon Dance
    - Frustration
    - Roost
    - Heal Bell

    Those EVs outspeed positive nature base 90 at +1, which is useful. But bulkier, or less bulky spreads can be used depending on what you like. You could also run defensive investment instead of attack, but I find the power appealing and the bulk somewhat un-needed myself. Of course the merit of this set is the wide array of Pokémon it calls setup fodder, or at least that was the only merit of the set for normal Altaria, now add to that the wall-shattering immediate power granted to Altaria by Pixilate and its boosted attack stat and you have an extremely overpowering Pokémon with few "counters" to speak of.

    Now. These counters that are spoken of.
    Vileplume
    Weezing
    Amoonguss
    Bronzong
    Magneton
    Steelix
    Cofagrigus (interesting one)
    Golbat

    So we have some archetypes in here.
    Bulky Poisons.
    Bulky Steels.
    Cofagrigus.

    Poisons:
    These are reasonably solid checks to Altaria, they still take a pretty hit from Pixilate Frustration, but they deal big damage back and will ultimately win 1v1. Special Altaria, while inferior, does beat Vileplume and Amoonguss with Fire Blast. Which is neat. Golbat and Weezing win anyway (I think so with Weezing anyway)

    Steels:
    DD Altaria with Fire Blast over Heal Bell does beat there somewhat cleanly. With the exception of Bronzong.

    Cofag:
    Sacrifices itself to remove Pixilate basically. Doesn't work for special Altaria.


    Zoroark:
    [​IMG]
    HP: 60
    Attack: 105
    Defense: 60
    Special Attack: 120
    Special Defense: 60
    Speed: 105
    Ability: Illusion

    Now Zoroark. Zoro is strong on both sides of the attacking spectrum. Has more than all the movepool it needs, except for fairies. It can go physical with Knock Off and U-Turn, mixed with the same and Flamethrower, sweeper with Nasty Plot or even Swords Dance, or choice. Now the former two are hampered by Zoroark's unfortunate frailty, however its ability; Illusion, if used well, is able to turn many situations into a manner of 50/50, by disguising itself as another party member. This is a cool feature, and while it's by no means a "free turn" like some might try to say, or strawman with, it can easily grab you a strong advantage if it works out.

    Zoroark has some "counters" in the form of bulkier fairy types, as it lacks Sludge Bomb or something to hit them effectively and the best it can pull most of the time is a neutral-ass Flamethrower. But beyond that it's not really counterable due to its wide movepool and ability to attack from both sides of the spectrum so effectively. What counters it does have, again, may fall prey to Illusion, either forcing them out for a big hit on something else, or just dying to the actual counter that Zoroark would have impersonated. All it may require is a Poison or Steel type on the tail end of your team. While Steels may share a common weakness with Zoroark and most things that commonly hit Poison-types (neutral attacks) hit Zoro hard enough, it can still be enough to force out a fairy for fear of an OHKO or severe wounding in return.

    Ending kind of feels abrupt but I can't think of more
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2014
  22. Wasabifold

    Wasabifold New Member

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    Alright I'm just gonna bring this up. Typhlosion, hell no. WAY too powerful with eruption in this tier. Needs to go.

    Also needless to say, Mega beedrill, and mega sceptile and mega lopunny etc etc etc, but I do expect those to rise naturally anyways through usage.
     
  23. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 192 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 169-199 (37.6 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 123-146 (29.7 - 35.2%) -- 20.9% chance to 3HKO
    252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 134-158 (34 - 40.1%) -- 37.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 172+ SpD Jellicent: 120-142 (29.7 - 35.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Seismitoad: 140-165 (33.8 - 39.8%) -- 33.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    If it's scarf then a whole load of shit walls it, it would be dishonest to pretend Scarf Typhlosion is too powerful, it loses 38 power on its main STAB when it comes in on rocks too (which you might note I haven't accounted for in calcs). When it starts using Fire Blast, Scarf isn't killing anything bulky without Blaze, Specs is still strong but it doesn't break walls like full power Eruption does (until Blaze). None of the checks to specs Eruption that I listed above are non-viable in any way. But ok let's say you insist on running some crazy offensive team with nothing bulky on it and you encounter a Scarf Typhlosion.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Typhlosion: 191-226 (64.3 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Blaze Typhlosion Eruption (36 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Shiftry: 236-282 (73.5 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Typhlosion: 166-196 (55.8 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Typhlosion Eruption (60 BP) vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Fletchinder: 73-87 (23.9 - 28.5%) -- 96.4% chance to 4HKO

    252 SpA Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 135-159 (32.6 - 38.4%) -- 98.7% chance to 3HKO

    252 SpA Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gallade: 193-228 (69.6 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Gallade Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Typhlosion: 180-213 (60.6 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Typhlosion Eruption (67 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gallade: 87-103 (31.4 - 37.1%) -- 83.3% chance to 3HKO

    Even in Typhlosion's best match-up it can be dealt with and I have only scraped the surface of what Scarf Typhlosion can't do to balance or defensive teams.
    Again, none of this factors in Rocks.

    I have thought Typh was dumb in the past in other tiers. But, turns out I just wasn't preparing for it and when I stopped being lazy in what threats I accounted for, I never lost to Scarf Typhlosion spamming Eruption anymore.
     
  24. Trakyan

    Trakyan Member

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    ORAS megsa look pretty interesting, personally i'm of the opinion that beedrill and gallade need to go.
    Gallade and beedrill both have a lot of power, both have a means to boost that power (albeit only gallade really has the bulk to do so) and can wreak even without a boost. Also, where gallade has bulk beedrill has speed (and adaptability). Both are ridiculously hard to counter and only marginally easier to check.
    Honestly having to wait two months for a tier shift sucks, cant it be made to one month for the ORAS shift?

    Anyways, i think steelix and galalie will stay
    Steelix just loses its only recovery in leftovers in exchange for some attack and a higher defense (not that the defense buff makes that much of a difference, it was sky high to begin with and he loses leftovers) and higher sdef. He wont be a wallbreaker by any means, and is about as bulky as he was before, if not less.
    Galalie's stats look good all around, but nothing particularly stand out or stellar, he's neither super fast, super powerful or super bulky (not that the last one would matter anyway, he's an ice type). He'll probably be better now, but still not banworthy or likely to leave NU imo.

    camerupt is an interesting case.
    Now he's slow as a rock. A fat, molten rock. However, 125 base satk and what i thought would be a bane in sheer force might actually be his greatest blessing. Earth power, fire blast/flame thrower will make it top tier offensively (ancient power, flash cannon are possible special coverage moves but stealth rock and toxic can be used to assist the team and break down bulky waters respectively) , likely one of the best wallbreakers we'll have in NU. Fire/ground is very solid offensively. His typing while having a fair few weaknesses also leaves him immune to electric and neutral to ice, rock and grass (prime electric type check) so it's not that bad when played to its strengths. The drawback is of course that speed stat. However, used as a hit and run attacker he has the potential to be amazing. I might try him out later.
     
  25. Suigetsu

    Suigetsu Active Member

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    Flash Cannon hits little, HP Grass hits fat mons like Gastro and Seimitoad. Notice I have bolded this. All's well if you test him and find out that most teams are unprepared, but you CANNOT base it upon a single result, being people using it against your teams. :v

    My thoughts:
    Camerupt is severely weak to the common Scald, mostly used by special walls to burn physical attackers. As if this weren't enough, hydro pump, surf, earthquake and earth power, all powerful and all common, either OHKO or severely damage this. Lacking priority and speed leaves Mega Camerupt susceptible to Banded and Specs mon, and being weak to spikes, affected by toxic spikes, neutral to stealth rock and lacking recovery is no help. Don't get me wrong, I've used Mega Camerupt, and it pulls weight, but I don't think it needs to go at all.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2014
  26. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Last edited: Nov 10, 2014
  27. Trakyan

    Trakyan Member

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    I'd like to note that neither earth power or earthquake are common. Earthquake is run by hippo, earthpower is run by just about nothing. The only thing i've seen use it is camerupt and seismitoed. Neither of which is commonly used at all. Also, the majority of the tier is vulnerable to spikes and toxic spikes and is neutral to stealth rock. And many of the banned pokemon have been vulnerable to them. It doesn't change the fact that spikes and toxic spikes are exceedingly rare, toxic spikes is very easy to get rid.

    You saying he's vulnerable to specs, band etc (putting aside the fact that imo, he resists a fair few of the specs/band pokes like jolteon, rotom etc) which is completely irrelevant to my arguement of saying he'd make a good hit and runner, as he wont be staying in to sweep or w/e.

    Ohh, and most importantly

    I never said he needs to be banned.

    Please actually read the post before you trash it.

    Ohh, and weavile, my thoughts on the pokemon you mentioned

    I think gallade needs to go, he's more than capable of setting up a SD or two, especially on special attackers. And closecombat+psychocut is nice coverage, closecombat hits things with a high base power while most things which resist it are weak to psychocut from experience. Ghost types which are immune to one and neutral to the other dont take well to knock off.

    Also, he has the stats to back all that up, nice speed and attack as well as decent bulk.

    Sceptile is borderline for me, i think sub/giga/dpulse/leaf storm or focus miss is his best set, and he has the stats to use it but idk if its quite broken. I think he'll move up anyway so it doesn't really matter. What stands out to me is his coverage with his stabs. Steel resists that but steel types we have lack recovery/are weak to focus miss/dont actually resist giga drain etc.

    Lopunny i dont have much experience with, i think it will move up though anyway.
    PuP set seems pretty good, after a boost walling it seems impossible and even without a boost it hits pretty hard. I don't find setting up a PuP or two to be particularly hard as it has the bulk to take a hit or two, and forcing a switch buys you a turn on top of that. It may need to go.

    kelfki/cofagriggus dont seem too bad. Cofag when looked at as a stand alone drop doesnt seem too great imo. It's nice, but nothing we need to ban. Kelfki will be annoying i think, spreading t wave and such as well as spiking. The spiking could be an issue that makes the current imbalance between spinning+hazard setting we have even worse, with the loss of hitmontop and hitmonchan which were our most durable spinners, and the gain of yet another spinblocker. I think we need to let the tier settle before discussing these two, though. And if one needs to be banned i'd say kelfki. Cofag on its own isnt banworthy
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2014
  28. Suigetsu

    Suigetsu Active Member

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    Ease up on the hostility :v

    Earthquake can be used by Hippo, Bronzong (Not realy effective but w/e), Altaria (DD Set), Steelix (Not really effective), Sandlash, Rhydon, Primeape, Golurk, Archeops, Seismitoad and others below the 3% mark.
    Well, I'll admit I was wrong on earth power.

    But being weak to all possible hazards isn't very good for a hit and runner, is my point. The bulk it gains with mega is made irrelevant if it loses too much HP to even bulk a hit after 2 switch outs without taking any other damage :v Some players abuse hazards, and know how to keep them out, and while they are usually easy to get rid of, a well built team shouldn't make it very easy.

    But I wasn't specifically arguing against your post. You said, and I quote: "Please actually read the post before you trash it."
    So what if something I posted under "My Thoughts" is irrelevant to your post, it wasn't supposed to be relevant in the first place???(Which, might I add it is: how can you keep hitting and running and constantly being forced out by choice mons with that vulnerability to hazards?)

    Also, "most importantly", if you had "actually read the post" before you "trashed it", you'd notice that I stated, under "My Thoughts", the section of my post dedicated to my opinion, that I thought it didn't need to go. Nowhere in that section did I directly address you, or anyone, I simply stated my opinion, and you took offence for no reason.

    As I said before, ease up on the hostility. You seem to have taken my post the wrong way.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2014
  29. Trakyan

    Trakyan Member

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    Most mons are that 'vulnerable to hazards', and many pokemon, including those banned (Pory-Z, goodra, druddigon which people were saying to ban, stoutland which got banned), worked fine with this hit and run strategy.

    The bulk it gains also isnt irrelevant, extra bulk is never irrelevant. It also has a fair few resistances to fire, electric (immune), poison, steel and so on which it can abuse to switch in multiple times.

    Also, you can't say your post was not related to mine considering how you rebutted it.
     
  30. Suigetsu

    Suigetsu Active Member

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    Not all those Pokémon were banned because they could run away then come back later :v

    Again, I said my post was not all related to yours. The part that wasn't under the section known as "My Thoughts" was related to your post, the rest wasn't. Anyhow this debate is getting stale.
     
  31. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Ayo. So we'd like opinions on Zoroark, Venomoth and Sceptile as potential suspects.
    Personally I think all 3 of them need to be suspected. How about you lot? Which do you think is the most urgent of the three?
     
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  32. Suigetsu

    Suigetsu Active Member

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    Zoroark
    I have no major problems with it, but any team packing priority (fake out, mach punch) should be fine. While it can run mixed sets and disguise itself, it still isn't a huge threat to me. Moot point though, bulky fightings/fairies/darks aren't common and still take a lot of damage.
    I say it should be suspected.

    Venomoth
    Again, no major problems. While it can run Specs and QD well, 90/90 isn't the most powerful. Tinted Lens and Bug Buzz is probably what make it formidable though, its hard to avoid a +1 Bug Buzz, not to mention psychic/sludge bomb give more coverage for the specs set. Abuse of the sleep clause and priority, also just general scarfers (or faster mons for the specs set) bring it down. I don't see it much though, so this is pretty limited knowledge. I say this should be suspected too.

    Sceptilite
    Unprepared teams get done up the pooper, simple as. Giga drain for recovery, focus blast for coverage, dragon pulse for stab and then a free moveslot, can be used for sub or HP (physical sets are viable too). Hate these things, fast, powerful and just a pain to get rid of, as most players want to preserve them for lategame cleanup.
    Suspect pls.

    sorry for being short im tired and cba, if they get suspected i'll make a decent-ish effort
     
  33. Big Bad Booty Daddy

    Big Bad Booty Daddy Big Poppa Pump

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    Time to post my opinons on Zoroark, Sceptilite, and VENOMOTH.

    Venomoth:

    I've been complaining about Venomoth for as long as it's been NU and it's really frustrating, but here's the set to why I believe it is still broken in the current metagame.

    Venomoth (M) @ Life Orb / Lum Berry (Choice is yours)
    Trait: Tinted Lens
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Quiver Dance
    - Bug Buzz
    - Roost
    - Sleep Powder

    This set basically explains itself. Tinted Lens with mono-attacking Bug makes it extremely hard for anything to switch in. Sleep Powder + decent typing for NU allows for many set-up opportunities, allowing you to set-up on Pokemon that may be able to OHKO you, but if you outpace then you have a decent ability to set-up, and Roost allows you to heal off damage taken. Also, Sleep Powder is only really immune in NU by other Grass-types, and Bug Buzz threatens any Grass-type that dare switches in, so it's a fairly easy ability to put something to Sleep and be able to set-up. Once this thing sets up, your only hope is to have something to Fake Out or Aqua Jet, and Moth has to be low for that to kill, and Sleep Powder allows for an ability to play mindgames with anything with Sucker Punch, mainly Zoroark, Skuntank, and Emboar. Sleep Powder is able to get rid of their ability to even move, allowing more chances to set-up. And if you've Sleep Powder'd something already, Sucker Punch probably won't do enough to OHKO Venomoth. It mainly requires you to run a bunch of priority in order to take out Venomoth because of its easy ability to set-up at almost anytime, and the only way to really beat it is through 2+ priority users consistently due to Tinted Lens, 2hkoing any resist at +1. Although Klefki is able to stop a Sweep, come'on don't stay in on TWave fam, Klefki stops every sweep with Twave too bar Mega Sceptile because Lightning Rod but yeah. I think it's unhealthy for the tier because of the strain it puts on teambuilding.

    Zoroark:
    Probably the most broken of the three Pokemon in my opinion, an extremely powerful Knock Off coming from Zoroark is definitely not something to miss with. It also allows Zoroark to remove a counter or check's item, making it harder for Pokemon to function as well. Like an incoming Klefki losing its Leftovers, an incoming Rhydon or Gurdurr losing its Eviolite, and things like that. Its movepool is almost basically designed to take on Physical walls as well, Grass Knot and Flamethrower often find their way onto its set, Flamethrower allows it to really hurt Tangrowth and Klefki, while Grass Knot allows it to hit Rhydon and Hippowdon, and all four of those are A-S Walls, easily some of the best in the tier. Illusion is also a huge help for it, honestly no point in getting in-depth into the importance of Illusion, it's used best early-game while nothing that takes neutral Rock damage or any hazards at all is healthy so the disguise works best. It turns the entire match into a 50/50 and I just don't believe it's competitive in the current NU tier. Its great movepool, attacking stats, and ability to easily get around its counters due to amazing movepool is what makes it too much.

    Mega Sceptile:
    Definitely one of the best offensive Pokemon in the tier, although I think it's a bit overrated, it's definitely a force to be reckoned with. It has two viable sets in Swords Dance and specially offensive, and both Pokemon have a lot different counters so it can get sort of hard to prepare for Mega Sceptile. Pokemon like Bronzong / Klefki are able to switch-in to both of its STABs and status or damage it with strong attacks in the form of Gyro Ball and Play Rough, although Swords Dance Sceptile is able to Earthquake Klefki without being Thunder Wave'd due to Lightning Rod, but I'd say they are reliable ways to take on Mega Sceptile. But Mega Sceptile's blazing speed allows it to outpace a whole bunch of the tier, including Base 80 Choice Scarf Pokemon with positive natures, meaning that revenging it is a really tough time.

    The extra Dragon STAB it gained was definitely nothing short of a blessing, allowing Sceptile an extra STAB in the form of Dragon Pulse in order to take on Flying, Fire, Poison, Grass, and Dragon-types without running a Hidden Power. It allows it to 2hko Pokemon it wasn't able to before, namely Vileplume / Dragalge / Amoonguss / Tangrowth, some of the Pokemon Sceptile just wasn't able to pass while it was normal. This boost to Mega Sceptile certainly turned it into one of the best Pokemon in the tier. I believe that it is unhealthy as well due to its blazing Speed, amazing offensive capabilities in running two incredibly viable sets that attack both physically and specially, and raw power.
     
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  34. AustinXhensL

    AustinXhensL Member

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    I have been wondering why gothorita is still NU, it single handedly stops all attempts (yui aside) at playing stall, or even balanced by setting up on every anything that cant u-turn volt switch or baton pass out. It forces a more offensive metagame and even then it can remove 2-3 threat without any harm done and then freely switch into the check/counter for whatever is brought in without the ability to double switch. I also feel similar about wobbuffet, Both of these pokemon do things that other trappers cannot such as dugtrio, magneton, and Trapinch in that they can relatively easily come in take any damage being thrown at them and set up/outright kill. Dugtrio had niche kills when he was in the tier magneton is only trapping 1 mon as all other steels beat it relitively easily with earthquake/power, and trapinch is so unviable that he shouldnt even have been mentioned. Point being these mons are simply too bulky to remove while other trappers would remove 1-2 threats in the entire tier wobbuffet and gothorita (mainly the latter but ill complain about wobbu in this post as well) are guaranteed a minimum of 1 kill per game,
    216 Atk Skuntank Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gothorita: 122-146 (37.6 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    this is the #1 set used by a supposed counter while gothorita can simply switch out, or set up to its hearts content.
    252+ Atk Choice Band Spiritomb Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gothorita: 102-122 (31.4 - 37.6%) -- 88.4% chance to 3HKO, 252+ Atk Choice Band Spiritomb Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gothorita: 204-242 (62.9 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, 0 SpA Spiritomb Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Gothorita: 122-146 (37.6 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO,
    so with this said i just removed both common spiritomb sets from being considered checks or counters though bandtomb can trick it a choice band it wont be able to do anything to it afterwards.
    252+ Atk Spiritomb Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gothorita: 204-242 (62.9 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, 252+ Atk Spiritomb Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gothorita: 102-122 (31.4 - 37.6%) -- 88.4% chance to 3HKO
    meaning it still wont kill and in the case of either goth can just switch out while spiritomb cannot.

    0 Atk Scrafty Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gothorita: 116-140 (35.8 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO, 0 Atk Scrafty Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Gothorita: 120-144 (37 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    meaning once again the most common set of a common "counter" is ineffective and i even did specialized common sense evs for gothorita to outpace the common scrafty and
    +1 0 SpA Gothorita Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Scrafty: 180-212 (53.8 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    and that is assuming that goth only set up to +1 before it killed whatever was in front of it that could very easily be +6 without any way fro whatever wall it just broke to stop it from doing so.
     
  35. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    The only walls Gothorita can reliably trap and kill are ones that have no form of preventing themselves becoming set up fodder or otherwise escaping.

    Here's a list of the walls that spring to mind and what they can do (if anything) to prevent themselves becoming set up fodder:

    Hippowdon: Has Whirlwind
    Vaporeon: Has Roar, and can fit it in without too much trouble (Wish, Protect, Scald, Roar)
    Milotic: Has Haze and Dragon Tail
    Weezing: Has Haze and Clear Smog
    Amoongus: Has Clear Smog
    Vileplume: Loses
    Uxie: Has U-turn
    Gastrodon: Loses if it lacks Clear Smog
    Quagsire: Ignores boosts anyway thanks to Unaware
    Cofagrigus: Immune to Shadow Tag
    Jellicent: See Cofagrigus
    Defensive Rotom-A: has Volt Switch
    Musharna: Can use a dry Baton Pass to escape (also protects it from Pursuit users)
    Steelix: Has Roar and Dragon Tail
    Tangrowth: Loses, but most carry Knock Off so Goth will probably lose its Eviolite

    So as you can see, many of NU's walls have ways of protecting themselves from Gothorita. There's also the massive trouble it has against offensive Pokémon - even stall and defensively inclined balanced teams need a heavy hitter or 2 so they're not wrecked by Taunt. And depending on whether you go for Hidden Power, Dazzling Gleam, Toxic or Taunt they'll always be something you can't trap. Apart from Shadow Tag it is a thoroughly mediocre Pokémon, and while it can trap and kill some walls, it isn't anywhere near broken IMO.
     
  36. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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  37. AustinXhensL

    AustinXhensL Member

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    The fact that it removes an entirely viable playstyle by itself tells you how broken it is, also out of that entire list of walls you have there, amoonguss loses, and sludge bomb is the better choice of moves, weezing loses, and once again has better things to use instead of haze or clear smog, milotic can haze, however it cant do anything else on haze sets and cm has more pp than haze does, quagsire loses to eball variants, gastrodon once again has better things to fill its moveslots than clear smog, you also forgot audino, mantine, golem, rhydon, golbat, skuntank, choiced sawk, muk, probopass, toxic vaporeon because lets face it more run toxic than run roar, ferroseed, klefki, magneton, seismitoad, granbull, xatu, eelektross, dragalge, emboar, virizion, and lanturn all lose to gothorita as well as pretty much any other choiced mon whos locked into anything thats not called knock off. against hyper offensive team, it acts as a bulky revenge killer, against stall its the ultimate stall breaker, 1 mon just removed 3/4 of the tier by itself and has a very minimal number of possible checks or counters. As well as having the ability to trap any mon in the tier not named gothorita, wobbuffet, mismagius, cofagrigus, and jellicent from switching out outside of voltturn and phazing/bp makes it extremely broken. gothorita simply makes every turn a 50/50 situation on whether you are going to lose a poke or not as opposed to being without it.
     
  38. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    You are way overestimating Goth's potential. Build a team with it on and do some actual testing, you'll soon discover it's not nearly as dangerous as you think.
     
  39. AustinXhensL

    AustinXhensL Member

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    Dr. Doom, i have, i have built several and in very nearly every battle it was my win condition, on my phone so cant show logs for proof
     
  40. Trakyan

    Trakyan Member

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    It may have been your win condition, but if it wasnt then you havent really built the team around it.

    The question you should be answering is how often was it sucessful in setting down that win condition and was it really the best pokemon to do so? would hazards have helped more, a pursuit user? toxic? knock off?
    I dont think goth is as broken as you say. Also, as for the walls mentioned.... (my comments in bold)

    Half of those actually lose, sorry. The rest of them are pretty rare. Let me point this out that i don't think goth is broken.

    damn this is long
    I disagree with this list as much as i did with the last one, but in the complete opposite way. One underestimates goth while the other overestimates it.
    For the record, i don't think goth is broken.
     
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